NEC Minutes - Draft - Nov 2009

[a2capt]

Action Agenda Items

1. Approval of May 2009 NEC Minutes             Col Chazell   Pg. 5
2. Conduct of Members Using Social Media        Col Carr      Pg. 6
3. Air Patrol Ribbon                            Col Hayden    Pg. 10
4. CAP Glider Program Review                    Col Chazell   Pg. 12
5. Glider Operations: Del. or Mod 60-1 Ch 2-3c  Col Carr      Pg. 15
6. Inspector General of the Year Award          Col Charles   Pg. 17
7. Member App. - Proof of True Identity         Col Hayden    Pg. 19
8. Service Date                                 Col Carr      Pg. 21
9. Amendment to CAPR 112-10                     Col Myrick    Pg. 24
10. Annual Conf. & Nat. Board Meeting for 2011  Col Chazell   Pg. 26
     May 2010 NEC meeting location                            Pg. 27
11. Travel Policy                               Col Chazell   Pg. 28


Other Items

12.   Advisor / Committee Reports

1. National Safety Officer                                    Pg. 30
2. Finance Committee Report                                   Pg. 30
3. Chaplain Report                                            Pg. 33
4. National Legal Officer's Report                            Pg. 33
5. National Controllers Report
    CAPR 60-1 Changes (Type I, Type II, Type II Incidents)    Pg. 34
6. Inspector General's Report                                 Pg. 35

13. Old Business                                              Pg. 36

14. New Business

1.  Awards/Decorations/Promotions             Maj Gen Courter Pg. 37
2.  Identification Cards                      Col Myrick      Pg. 37
3.  Elimination of the New Corporate Uniform                  Pg. 38
4.  Wear of Gray pants and Aviator shirt for Cadets over 18   Pg. 38
5.  Uniform Process Action team                               Pg. 38
6.  National Cadet Competition                                Pg. 40

Administrative Announcements                                  Pg. 42
See attached: (Converted to PDF for universal access)

[RADIOMAN015]

Thanks for the heads up, Yes the actual "draft" minutes can be found at:  http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/BoG_2008_Dec_A66FC958F5434.pdf

I especially like the discussions on making sure a member is who she/he says they are (positive ID) due to the possibility of terrorists infiltrating CAP, and every senior member having to get a picture ID card, possibly from a government issuing ID facility
Frankly for CAP senior members it's seem that one could readily ask to see a picture ID card issued by a government agency and just check off that a government picture ID card was checked on the application, and of course as they admit the finger print card (which again the conspiracy theory comes into play that someone might submit finger prints that isn't theirs) can also be used to verify status.

As far as the picture ID cards are concerned, CAP is already behind by about 1 1/2 months to issuing the plastic non photo ID cards.  Surely most members like taking time off from work to go to a government ID issuing facility (likely a military base/facility) just to get a picture ID card.  Why not mak it simple and place a statement on the non photo card to just ask for picture ID verification.  Most mlitary bases require that a drivers' license with picture be shown at the gate for entry anyways, unless one already has a DOD/military ID card.   
RM

[lordmonar]

RM,

One of the issue that CAP is looking at with a new ID card is that DHS is requiring photo IDs for flight line access and DoD is going to start locking down bases more.  By using the same standards for postive ID that the government uses for social security cards or pass ports we make our IDs that much more secure.

[PhoenixRisen]

and of course as they admit the finger print card (which again the conspiracy theory comes into play that someone might submit finger prints that isn't theirs) can also be used to verify status.

What would it take to get CAP onboard with LiveScan?  Does it cost anything for CAP itself?

[RADIOMAN015]

RM,

One of the issue that CAP is looking at with a new ID card is that DHS is requiring photo IDs for flight line access and DoD is going to start locking down bases more.  By using the same standards for postive ID that the government uses for social security cards or pass ports we make our IDs that much more secure.

Many commercial airports already have CAP pilots getting access badges (to include a card to open a gate) with their photo, and a CAP picture ID card will not change that requirement at these airports.
As far as CAP mission operational support personnel getting on military bases during certain security conditions, there are "other" methods to ensure appropriate access can be obtained.
RM

[alamrcn]

Thanks for the heads up, Yes the actual "draft" minutes can be found at:  http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/BoG_2008_Dec_A66FC958F5434.pdf

Oops, that's a link to the Board of Governers' November 2008 meeting. Here's the link to the National Executive Committee's November 2009 meeting...
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/NEC_2009_Nov_draft_A932C887B8DC0.pdf

Another oops...
The 2009 February (winter) National Board Meeting minutes link to the September 2009 (fall) draft. But the the file name is correct - hope someone backed it up


Since the National HQ website does dump off older meeting minutes, I have stored them on the Civil Air Patrol Patches website in the Document Library. So if you need to research anything from 2000-2003, that's were you can go...
http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/library.html#National Meeting Minutes

If anyone by chance has anything older than that on their hard drive, please let me know!

[flyguy06]

Thanks for the heads up, Yes the actual "draft" minutes can be found at:  http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/BoG_2008_Dec_A66FC958F5434.pdf

I especially like the discussions on making sure a member is who she/he says they are (positive ID) due to the possibility of terrorists infiltrating CAP, and every senior member having to get a picture ID card, possibly from a government issuing ID facility
Frankly for CAP senior members it's seem that one could readily ask to see a picture ID card issued by a government agency and just check off that a government picture ID card was checked on the application, and of course as they admit the finger print card (which again the conspiracy theory comes into play that someone might submit finger prints that isn't theirs) can also be used to verify status.

As far as the picture ID cards are concerned, CAP is already behind by about 1 1/2 months to issuing the plastic non photo ID cards.  Surely most members like taking time off from work to go to a government ID issuing facility (likely a military base/facility) just to get a picture ID card.  Why not mak it simple and place a statement on the non photo card to just ask for picture ID verification.  Most mlitary bases require that a drivers' license with picture be shown at the gate for entry anyways, unless one already has a DOD/military ID card.   
RM

Isn't a drivers license a government issued picture ID? Most senior members already have one of those right?

[Flying Pig]

So whats the "Air Patrol Ribbon" for?

[lordmonar]

So whats the "Air Patrol Ribbon" for?

DHS, Forest Fire Patrols, Coast Watch Patrols and the new SUAV missions.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Hopefully, they'll come up with a different name so as not to be confusing.

I can hear it now: "Why isn't it called the Civil Air Patrol Ribbon?"

Maybe some sort of "reconaissance service ribbon" or something.

[lordmonar]

Well....if I had my druthers....I would just ditch the SAR, O-ride, CAP Patrol, and CD ribbons and just adopt an Aerial Acheivement, Ground Achievement and Mission Support Achievement ribbons.

You fly 10 real missions (CD, SAR, DHS, O-ride, what ever) you get an Aerial Achievement.

You do 10 ground team missions you get the Ground Acheivement.

You do 10 missions at Mission Base you get the Mission Support Acheivement.

Simple...no fuss...logical rules....no stuipd props or whatever to clutter up the ribbon.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Well....if I had my druthers....I would just ditch the SAR, O-ride, CAP Patrol, and CD ribbons and just adopt an Aerial Acheivement, Ground Achievement and Mission Support Achievement ribbons.

You fly 10 real missions (CD, SAR, DHS, O-ride, what ever) you get an Aerial Achievement.

You do 10 ground team missions you get the Ground Acheivement.

You do 10 missions at Mission Base you get the Mission Support Acheivement.

Simple...no fuss...logical rules....no stuipd props or whatever to clutter up the ribbon.

The mission support ribbon would have a donut or coffee-cup clasp to denote further service.

Seriously, though, I don't understand why we have a cadet orientation pilot ribbon, or a counterdrug ribbon, or some of these others. I'm OK with a ribbon for special, non-search missions, and maybe that one ribbon could replace a bunch of these others.

We're getting into ribbon overload, to the point where they're starting to look alike. I am waiting for the cringe when some cadet points at my command service ribbon and asks where I did community service.

[lordmonar]

I am waiting for the cringe when some cadet points at my command service ribbon and asks where I did community service.

I tried to fix that last year by making the command badge permanant (worn under the name tag for alumni commanders)...but the NB shot it down. 

[James Shaw]

So whats the "Air Patrol Ribbon" for?

The specific criteria is being discussed. It is supposed to cover those missions that are not allready covered. It is intended to be the "final" type ribbon for flight related missions.

Hopefully, they'll come up with a different name so as not to be confusing.

I can hear it now: "Why isn't it called the Civil Air Patrol Ribbon?"

Maybe some sort of "reconaissance service ribbon" or something.

The name has allready been changed a couple of times.

We're getting into ribbon overload, to the point where they're starting to look alike. I am waiting for the cringe when some cadet points at my command service ribbon and asks where I did community service.

The design doesnt look like any other. I did the propsed design.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

So whats the "Air Patrol Ribbon" for?

The specific criteria is being discussed. It is supposed to cover those missions that are not allready covered. It is intended to be the "final" type ribbon for flight related missions.

Hopefully, they'll come up with a different name so as not to be confusing.
I can hear it now: "Why isn't it called the Civil Air Patrol Ribbon?"
Maybe some sort of "reconaissance service ribbon" or something.

The name has allready been changed a couple of times.

AHA! Good. I think...

We're getting into ribbon overload, to the point where they're starting to look alike. I am waiting for the cringe when some cadet points at my command service ribbon and asks where I did community service.

The design doesnt look like any other. I did the propsed design.

Put the community service and command service ribbons together, and the only difference I see is that the outer stripes flip. It's essentially the same pattern as the Red Service Ribbon, just with different colors — unless I'm missing something, Jim.

... or do you mean the design of the new "air patrol" ribbon? If so, to quote the folks over at Fark.com, this thread is useless without pictures.

By the way, your TIG to light colonel isn't unlike mine. I'm trying to get SOS out of the way in time.

[Cecil DP]

I am waiting for the cringe when some cadet points at my command service ribbon and asks where I did community service.

I tried to fix that last year by making the command badge permanant (worn under the name tag for alumni commanders)...but the NB shot it down. 

They didn't hesitate to make the NB and NEC badges permenant awards though.

[Flying Pig]

So we will have How many ribbons for flight?

Counter Drug Ribbon
Homeland Security Ribbon
Search and Rescue Ribbon w/ prop
Find Ribbon w/ prop

Now we need an "Air Patrol" ribbon for everything else not covered?

I think were good in the ribbon department.  I thought putting a silver prop on the achievement ribbon would be perfect for an "Aerial Achievement Medal."  One ribbon doubling for two.

[bosshawk]

It would be interesting to see an accounting of the corporate funds spent on this most recent NEC meeting in St. Louis.  It might also be interesting to figure out how much it cost for each agenda item.  Probably embarrass some folks.

Remember fellow CAP members: that is our dues money that is being spent on those meetings.

[James Shaw]

So we will have How many ribbons for flight?

Counter Drug Ribbon
Homeland Security Ribbon
Search and Rescue Ribbon w/ prop
Find Ribbon w/ prop

Now we need an "Air Patrol" ribbon for everything else not covered?

I think were good in the ribbon department.  I thought putting a silver prop on the achievement ribbon would be perfect for an "Aerial Achievement Medal."  One ribbon doubling for two.

I believe the idea was started by someone in the NER. I just do the design work I dont initiate these types of things.

[Major Carrales]

Did we really need another "ribbon" thread?

MIKE, how about moving the posts on that matter to the UNIFORM thread.

[desertengineer1]

As far as the picture ID cards are concerned, CAP is already behind by about 1 1/2 months to issuing the plastic non photo ID cards.     
RM

Umm.. Nope.  I got my new card about a week after promotion.  Nice try.

[desertengineer1]

Thanks for the heads up, Yes the actual "draft" minutes can be found at:  http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/BoG_2008_Dec_A66FC958F5434.pdf

I especially like the discussions on making sure a member is who she/he says they are (positive ID) due to the possibility of terrorists infiltrating CAP, and every senior member having to get a picture ID card, possibly from a government issuing ID facility
Frankly for CAP senior members it's seem that one could readily ask to see a picture ID card issued by a government agency and just check off that a government picture ID card was checked on the application, and of course as they admit the finger print card (which again the conspiracy theory comes into play that someone might submit finger prints that isn't theirs) can also be used to verify status.

As far as the picture ID cards are concerned, CAP is already behind by about 1 1/2 months to issuing the plastic non photo ID cards.  Surely most members like taking time off from work to go to a government ID issuing facility (likely a military base/facility) just to get a picture ID card.  Why not mak it simple and place a statement on the non photo card to just ask for picture ID verification.  Most mlitary bases require that a drivers' license with picture be shown at the gate for entry anyways, unless one already has a DOD/military ID card.   
RM

Military ID offices can barely handle the current load, so don't expect them to welcome CAP with open arms anytime soon.  CAP-USAF would have to get it approved at SECDEF level, assuming they were on board - which I doubt.

[Major Carrales]

Thanks for the heads up, Yes the actual "draft" minutes can be found at:  http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/BoG_2008_Dec_A66FC958F5434.pdf

I especially like the discussions on making sure a member is who she/he says they are (positive ID) due to the possibility of terrorists infiltrating CAP, and every senior member having to get a picture ID card, possibly from a government issuing ID facility
Frankly for CAP senior members it's seem that one could readily ask to see a picture ID card issued by a government agency and just check off that a government picture ID card was checked on the application, and of course as they admit the finger print card (which again the conspiracy theory comes into play that someone might submit finger prints that isn't theirs) can also be used to verify status.

As far as the picture ID cards are concerned, CAP is already behind by about 1 1/2 months to issuing the plastic non photo ID cards.  Surely most members like taking time off from work to go to a government ID issuing facility (likely a military base/facility) just to get a picture ID card.  Why not mak it simple and place a statement on the non photo card to just ask for picture ID verification.  Most mlitary bases require that a drivers' license with picture be shown at the gate for entry anyways, unless one already has a DOD/military ID card.   
RM

Military ID offices can barely handle the current load, so don't expect them to welcome CAP with open arms anytime soon.  CAP-USAF would have to get it approved at SECDEF level, assuming they were on board - which I doubt.

This is one place I don't think we should go.  The reason is that we have members with all levels of participation.  Only the most active CAP Officers should ever even consider an id of that caliber and then only for "special service" and intensive background check.  Just my opinion on the matter.

[jimmydeanno]

Only the most active CAP Officers should ever even consider an id of that caliber ...

Or the most active Burger King employees at the base foodcourt...

[Major Carrales]

Only the most active CAP Officers should ever even consider an id of that caliber ...

Or the most active Burger King employees at the base foodcourt...

And your point is?  If we are issuing military id's to every member, including those with minimal business on the base, you are inviting abuse.  The Burger King employees have daily business on a Military Reservation, the every day just-off-the-street CAP Officer does not need such an id merely because CAP Officers need an id.

Now, depending on the situation the use of a military id for CAP officers may be warranted.  If you meet at a base, or have augmentation duties, or regular missions operating or the like...and require one based on your level of participation, then that is fine.

HOWEVER...

I can see the adverse effects this could cause when some Squadron Commander starts churning SMWOGs through the process like they were lining up for stamp from Chuck E Cheese.  Then some less than trained one makes some faux pas that gets the Squadron thrown off the base. 

No, this occasion, if we are going to push for military ids, it must be for only the selected few.

[Spike]

All Military installations can produce "locally produced" ID Cards for use on the installation, and the card can dictate exactly what level of entry the person receives. 

All Government departments have some version of the "local card", other than the CAC.  So, CAP-USAF needs to start working hard and get things done.  Time is past due to get this situation ironed out.

[desertengineer1]

All Military installations can produce "locally produced" ID Cards for use on the installation, and the card can dictate exactly what level of entry the person receives. 

All Government departments have some version of the "local card", other than the CAC.  So, CAP-USAF needs to start working hard and get things done.  Time is past due to get this situation ironed out.

They are issued ID cards because it is required of their employment and each is approved by derived authority of the installation commander.  You cannot argue the same situation for CAP members. 

Besides, I don't see justification in the man hours required to issue ID cards.  CAP is not mission essential for operation of an air base.  Sorry...

[MikeD]

So whats the "Air Patrol Ribbon" for?

DHS, Forest Fire Patrols, Coast Watch Patrols and the new SUAV missions.

What's the new SUAV mission?  I haven't heard about anything UAV for us other then the "UAV Surrogate" which iirc was geared more towards Predator/Reaper class.

I've got about 20 hours in Raven-B, a couple hundred sim, and a couple in Wasp, it'd be nice to start tacking on to that.

[RogueLeader]

What's the new SUAV mission?  I haven't heard about anything UAV for us other then the "UAV Surrogate" which iirc was geared more towards Predator/Reaper class.

Just that, only diffrent arraingment of letters.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would think that many National Guard facilities would have the necessary equipment to do an ID card for CAP(?)

Also, I would hold off on issuing a DOD-type photo ID to an SMWOG...it should wait until they pin on second looie.

[Major Carrales]

I would think that many National Guard facilities would have the necessary equipment to do an ID card for CAP(?)

Also, I would hold off on issuing a DOD-type photo ID to an SMWOG...it should wait until they pin on second looie.

I would go farther and wait until they displayed a need to have such an ID, such as an operational qualification and/or assigned duty where a card would be needed.  Those that have them already as members of the Armed Forces likely have other business out side of CAP.

I have often toyed with, but not in a detailed manner, about a sort of stratified system on CAP.  The outer layer would included new people and those that operate at a squadron level in a "functional" capacity. By that I mean your squadron staffers that would not readily need an ID of the type mentioned. A more advanced level would be for those involved in heavy ES including SAR, those that might need access to various flight lines or military facilities related to training and operation.  The most advanced level would encompass those areas where more scrutiny would be required...such as those in CD or HS missions...and would require heavy "screening" due to the sensative nature of the missions.

I have never given this much thought in that I don't like artificial divisions in CAP (as one could easily reference the arguments between myself and RiverAux in the thread on "easy" and "difficult" specialty tracks.)

I can, however, set aside my bias to be objective. 

I regard a DOD or other military identification card to be of special consideration.  Such cards often carry with them certain benefits and authorizations that require a tempered application for CAP use.  Many may feel this is "unjustified," specially members of our armed forces who may see them as a mundane or routine part of their lives and daily existence. 

I, however, as a CAP civilian have had to deal with base security from the CAP perspective and based on that feel that having a military ID is representative of something potentially easily abused.  Thus, I must uphold the opinion that only those that need such an ID should have them.

I can see no rational argument for all CAP personal to have one, especially if they do not need one.  I, for example, have such limited business on the Naval Air Stations of my area that I could place myself on a list of people that does not need one. Now, if I were more involved in activities on said facilities I could see having one.  But visiting the Post Exchange is not a compelling enough reason to have one.

Now, if the USAF mandated it of CAP members or if the DOD issued a version of such a card for Auxiliaries of the various services...then I would be all for it due to its legitimizing effect for CAP and the USCGAux.

Now, I could be wrong about this.  If so, convince me.

[SarDragon]

As has been discussed before, using the DD 1173 would likely meet our basic needs. That's the tan one everybody calls the dependent's ID card, but that's a misnomer. It has provisions for identifying various privileges, and requires no additional special template. If you wanted to go one step farther, get a new template with the CAP seal on it.

JMHO; YMMV.

[Major Carrales]

As has been discussed before, using the DD 1173 would likely meet our basic needs. That's the tan one everybody calls the dependent's ID card, but that's a misnomer. It has provisions for identifying various privileges, and requires no additional special template. If you wanted to go one step farther, get a new template with the CAP seal on it.

JMHO; YMMV.

Fascinating...I would like to know more and will look it up tomorrow.  However, initial inquires on the matter revealed this...

"The Department of Defense issues eligible dependents and other eligible individuals a distinct identification card (ID) authorizing them to receive Uniformed Services benefits and privileges. Active duty family members and military retirees and their dependents receive a tan colored ID Card (DD Form 1173). The tan ID cards authorize access to commissary exchange and certain morale, welfare and recreation privileges."

Do CAP Officers, and cadets, warrant the benefits that this brings.  The "commissary exchange" is meaningful to the extent of purchasing uniforms et al, however "certain morale, welfare and recreation privileges" are of the type that can be abused and may go beyond a CAP Officer or Cadet's scope of operations.

[SarDragon]

If it's not specifically indicated on the card - NEX, Commissary, or MWR - then they don't have the privilege. Mine happens to have all three.

Without those authorizations, the card still functions as a picture ID recognized by the gate goons.

[Gunner C]

Fascinating...I would like to know more and will look it up tomorrow.  However, initial inquires on the matter revealed this...

"The Department of Defense issues eligible dependents and other eligible individuals a distinct identification card (ID) authorizing them to receive Uniformed Services benefits and privileges. Active duty family members and military retirees and their dependents receive a tan colored ID Card (DD Form 1173). The tan ID cards authorize access to commissary exchange and certain morale, welfare and recreation privileges."

The part about military retirees is incorrect.  We still receive the old DD Form 2 Uniformed Services Identification Card.  The retiree form is blue. [/correction]

[High Speed Low Drag]

IDs are right down my professional line  I have fingerprinted several senior members for their cards, and signed it as "Lt. G. St. Pierre, LRPD."  I have no problem if the FBI wanted to call and verify who I was, but it would be hard to do if I hadn't ID'd my agency.

My opinion – require that the fingerprint card be accompanied by a CAPF that the printing agency/tech fills out.  A simple form, but one that would require & instruct the printing agency to verify the identity of the person requesting FPing.  This could be done by a state-issued DL, or ID, and a secondary form of ID.  The FPing tech/officer would then fill in their Name, Rank, Employee ID (or Badge) Number, Agency, Agency Contact Number, Agency Address, and ORI.  This form, signed, would accompany the Fingerprint card.  (I would even prefer that the information be pre-printed on the back of the card.)  When the SQ Commander accepts the application and the card w/ form, they would also review the identification of the person and verify again that everything matches.  If they have any question or suspect something, it wouldn't be hard to contact the FPing agency and verify the information.

Then everything goes as normal.  They would receive the current non-picture ID card.  However, within 60 days, the member would be required to submit their picture and have the picture ID card sent out from National.  The added requirement would be that before access to any training / actual mission or access to any base, the CAP member would have to present the picture ID along with the state-issued ID. 

This would prevent from overloading "govt-issuing facilities," while still providing for positive ID of members.
I agree with Maj. Carrales, I really wouldn't want the average CAP member running around with a DOD card without a whole lot more vetting.

[Spike]

How about this then.....

http://www.cac.mil/CardInfoIdentification.html

A "Civilian" CAC.  No benefits associated with it.  It can be used in the future by CAP to authenticate members info and log on to computers should CAP decide it wants to move into the twenty-first century. 

For the "Affiliation" section of the Card it can say "Air Force", and for the seal....well it can have the CAP seal.  It would not even be too hard to change "civilian" to "Auxiliary Member". 

The Cards can even be printed with "NO MWR/Commissary/ Exchange benefits" right on the front.

Everyone is thinking the CAC is military.  It is not.  The military uses it, but it is a Government Agency ID Card.  The law was passed to get all those associated with the Government the CAC by 2011 anyway.

CAP-USAF needs to get working, and actually help out the Civil Air Patrol!!!!!!

[desertengineer1]

How about this then.....

http://www.cac.mil/CardInfoIdentification.html

A "Civilian" CAC.  No benefits associated with it.  It can be used in the future by CAP to authenticate members info and log on to computers should CAP decide it wants to move into the twenty-first century. 

For the "Affiliation" section of the Card it can say "Air Force", and for the seal....well it can have the CAP seal.  It would not even be too hard to change "civilian" to "Auxiliary Member". 

The Cards can even be printed with "NO MWR/Commissary/ Exchange benefits" right on the front.

Everyone is thinking the CAC is military.  It is not.  The military uses it, but it is a Government Agency ID Card.  The law was passed to get all those associated with the Government the CAC by 2011 anyway.

CAP-USAF needs to get working, and actually help out the Civil Air Patrol!!!!!!

I don't support AF issued identification for CAP.  I think there is little benefit to the AF compared to the overall expense it would incur.  The man-hours, cards, and material costs have to come from somewhere.  Installation FSS's barely have enough O&M funding to support immediate needs, and you want CAP-USAF to ask them to issue another family of them?

Our ANG base can't support current ID card needs (Thanks to BRAC).  There's no way it could consider supporting CAP members.  It takes at least 3 hours to get a "regular" ID card, and that's if the one full time employee who does them is there AND you have an appointment scheduled.

The USAF will most likely not even consider this for discussion until a cost study can be performed.  Even if that were to occur, I doubt CAP ranks very high if compared to operational needs.

Sorry to burst peoples' bubble on this.  It's obvious many of you are out of touch with today's force support capabilities and priorities.  We have extremely limited resources.   

[PhoenixRisen]

How about this then.....

A "Civilian" CAC.  No benefits associated with it.  It can be used in the future by CAP to authenticate members info and log on to computers should CAP decide it wants to move into the twenty-first century.

Been there, tried that, shot down.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=66.0


The "Sorry, no can do" letter from CAP-USAF is attached.

This is what it was supposed to look like, compared to the USAF CAC:

http://capblog.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/capvscac.jpg

[NCRblues]

If it's not specifically indicated on the card - NEX, Commissary, or MWR - then they don't have the privilege. Mine happens to have all three.

Without those authorizations, the card still functions as a picture ID recognized by the gate goons.

As being a past "gate goon" I take offense to this term. The gate guards (at least SF) are Law enforcment officers, with the power to arrest, detain, and ticket you, and hold the power to allow you access to the base, with or without a cac or another form if ID.

Speaking from experience, the "gate goons" are not briefed on what cap is at all. If it wasn't for me being in cap, I would have never know what you people in almost AF blues wearing officers grade where doing there.

Some cap members act like it's an insult for every SF airman, and contracted gate guard, to not greet cap officers with the same respect as the captains and LT's that drove through before him.

In a post 9/11 world, if you were the gate guard and had no clue what cap was, if someone drove up to your gate, with somewhat AF blues on, and handed you a driver's license instead of a military id, you would greet him with less than happy enthusiasm.

Speaking as a cap member and AD Air force, cap does not need a blank check access to the base that a cac card type of id would allow for. It takes maybe 5 minutes at the visitor's center, to tell them who you are and why you're there, they make a phone call to the base command center they say sure send em on, and bam you're on for the day. We really don't need any more than that.

[SarDragon]

Lighten up, Francis. I did my share of gate duty WIWOAD. Things were different back then. But even today, there is a small segment of folks who shouldn't be in the job because of personality issues.

And FWIW, I agree that every one of your points are valid.

Also, I think we're getting way off topic here.

[NCRblues]

First, who is Francis?

Second, so because a few people that probably should not be standing guard duty were put there, you paint all of them as goons? I guess if we're going to go down that road, all of cap's members are wannabe's because a few act that way. I am sure you would disagree with that statement correct?

Are we getting off topic? Woops, I guess I just can't stand when someone insults an entire carrier field, which has thousands of outstanding men and women in them.

[SarDragon]

Ok, apology in order. After a rethink, I see that in today's environment, the term was out of line.

[Spike]

Everyone thinks a CAC is a military card, that can only be issued by the military services.  Well, it is a US Government ID Card, issued by many more offices than just military ID Card centers. 

Some how a few of you think that giving CAP members a proper Government ID card would would by some way make it a burden on the military or "gate guards" at Air Force Bases.  Well, the ID cards should be inspected by the guards upon entry onto the base.  It takes about 2 seconds to scan the card and look at the face of the member.  If a guard can not do this, should he or she really be entrusted to be standing "guard".

Really, the Cards would be used more by aircrews and ES folks than they would be by members who happen to meet on a military installation. 

Again, a CAC is a US Government ID Card.  The military happens to be a large user of the CAC, but not the ONLY user. 

[desertengineer1]

As being a past "gate goon" I take offense to this term. The gate guards (at least SF) are Law enforcment officers, with the power to arrest, detain, and ticket you, and hold the power to allow you access to the base, with or without a cac or another form if ID.

Speaking from experience, the "gate goons" are not briefed on what cap is at all. If it wasn't for me being in cap, I would have never know what you people in almost AF blues wearing officers grade where doing there.

Some cap members act like it's an insult for every SF airman, and contracted gate guard, to not greet cap officers with the same respect as the captains and LT's that drove through before him.

In a post 9/11 world, if you were the gate guard and had no clue what cap was, if someone drove up to your gate, with somewhat AF blues on, and handed you a driver's license instead of a military id, you would greet him with less than happy enthusiasm.

Speaking as a cap member and AD Air force, cap does not need a blank check access to the base that a cac card type of id would allow for. It takes maybe 5 minutes at the visitor's center, to tell them who you are and why you're there, they make a phone call to the base command center they say sure send em on, and bam you're on for the day. We really don't need any more than that.

I don't like hearing that either.  Even if it is stated in a joking manner, it doesn't help the fact that we have attitude problems from certain members.  Remember that we are GUESTS on these installations.

SFS members are probably the most overworked, over deployed, and least respected (by those who don't know what they do).

On the other subject, it's very easy to get an access letter for CAP members.  We do it every week for the hosted squadron, and every month for our wing staff meeting.

[desertengineer1]

Everyone thinks a CAC is a military card, that can only be issued by the military services.  Well, it is a US Government ID Card, issued by many more offices than just military ID Card centers. 

Some how a few of you think that giving CAP members a proper Government ID card would would by some way make it a burden on the military or "gate guards" at Air Force Bases.  Well, the ID cards should be inspected by the guards upon entry onto the base.  It takes about 2 seconds to scan the card and look at the face of the member.  If a guard can not do this, should he or she really be entrusted to be standing "guard".

Really, the Cards would be used more by aircrews and ES folks than they would be by members who happen to meet on a military installation. 

Again, a CAC is a US Government ID Card.  The military happens to be a large user of the CAC, but not the ONLY user.

I'll state this again.... 

ID cards are issued by the authority of the installation commander to individuals who require access to the base for their duties and responsibilities - as defined by the mission need and their employment/employee contracts.  BX employee = yes.  Military members = already there with the military ID.  Civilians = AFMC 350 or CAC as required by thier jobs.  Contract employees = as required basis.  Even those are denied and have to get a base pass.  CAP = no.  Not for weekly meetings.

Justfication cannot be made for CAP.  I'm sorry to break your troll path, but that's the way it's going to be.

My previous posts had nothing to do with the gate guards.  It's the time and hourly costs associated with authorizing, issuing, and managing them.  Estimating about two man-hours for each member, you get an enourmous cost that will be burdoned by the AF.  Most likely that will be an unfunded requirement, which means it will come out of FSS O&M funds.  Umm.. No.

This is not the AF of the cold war.  Many units have told their members to bring toilet paper from home these past few years.  Many ANG bases almost had to suspend full timers for a week or so last FY because they were millions short on O&M.

I DO NOT support spending millions we don't have to manage ID cards for people who will rarely, if at all, will do duties with an AF host base.  In addition, it will add more hours of wait time.  It's already a two hour wait for retirees and dependants at our local base.  They do not need to be waiting longer due to CAP.

To the trolls on this list:  If you don't know what your talking about, don't get twisted up when you are corrected by those that do - especially when you elude to defining the job requirements of people whom allow YOU on thier installation as guests.

And you wonder why many of our members get treated badly, or worse, why CAP commanders tell certain members to go somewhere else?  I got nothin...

I told myself I would not come back to captalk after the last round of idiocy.  I'm seeing this discussion go down the same path.  Ugh...

[PHall]

Everyone thinks a CAC is a military card, that can only be issued by the military services.  Well, it is a US Government ID Card, issued by many more offices than just military ID Card centers. 

Some how a few of you think that giving CAP members a proper Government ID card would would by some way make it a burden on the military or "gate guards" at Air Force Bases.  Well, the ID cards should be inspected by the guards upon entry onto the base.  It takes about 2 seconds to scan the card and look at the face of the member.  If a guard can not do this, should he or she really be entrusted to be standing "guard".

Really, the Cards would be used more by aircrews and ES folks than they would be by members who happen to meet on a military installation. 

Again, a CAC is a US Government ID Card.  The military happens to be a large user of the CAC, but not the ONLY user.

CAC = Common Acess Card. It's just a "smart card" that DOD just happens to use as a ID Card too.

[Spike]

desertenginner,

You need to read posts just a little more closely.  You are hell bent on the idea that CAP needs proper ID cards for those FEW that meet on a military installation.  You are incorrect. 

I got my CAC in just under 15 minutes.  I got it far AWAY from a military installation.

So, get off your high horse, and stop trashing people who differ in opinion to you.  You are ignorant on this subject.  I looked at your previous posts and it looks like you get confused on simple subjects easily. 

It comes down to this....There are other means to issuing CAP Members proper ID cards than through an "Air Force Base". 

[desertengineer1]

desertenginner,

You need to read posts just a little more closely.  You are hell bent on the idea that CAP needs proper ID cards for those FEW that meet on a military installation.  You are incorrect. 

I got my CAC in just under 15 minutes.  I got it far AWAY from a military installation.

So, get off your high horse, and stop trashing people who differ in opinion to you.  You are ignorant on this subject.  I looked at your previous posts and it looks like you get confused on simple subjects easily. 

It comes down to this....There are other means to issuing CAP Members proper ID cards than through an "Air Force Base".

Good grief.  How clear do I have to try to make this?

My opinion is simple.  I do not support the idea that DoD should be issuing ID cards for CAP members as a whole.  IF there are exceptions, as deemed by the installation commander and the mission, they can be issued one.  But that has to meet some pretty tight criteria.

I have an issue with the rather lax, borderline insulting attitude by a few members on this board.  Let's take a quick tour, shall we?

"Some how a few of you think that giving CAP members a proper Government ID card would would by some way make it a burden on the military or "gate guards" at Air Force Bases.  Well, the ID cards should be inspected by the guards upon entry onto the base.  It takes about 2 seconds to scan the card and look at the face of the member.  If a guard can not do this, should he or she really be entrusted to be standing "guard"."

For someone accusing me of being confused, you seem to have a nice hypocrite factor with this comment.  I stated clearly that (in my opinion) this is an issue with those making the ID cards, not the gate guards.  Drop it with the gate guard drama.  They have one dog in this fight - to verify the member's credentials meet the requirements of the installation for access.  This DOES NOT include snide comments regarding thier qualifications.  Reference the other comment I made regarding perception.  WE ARE GUESTS.

The current processes and procedures allow expeditious access to a military installation with a phone call and maybe an email.  They DO NOT justify giving a CAP member open access to a base anytime they want.  Very few CAP members in our organization meet this criteria.  Those members are issued ID cards IAW the approval process I stated.

I DO NOT support adding another family of ID cards to pass and ID's management when there are other avenues available that work well.  The added cost DOES NOT justify the overall expense - in my humble, 21 year and counting AF career opinion.

When you are on an AF wing or squadron command staff, responsible for the base's O&M management, maybe you'll have some credibility to throw around insults and be a troll. 

[arajca]

The current processes and procedures allow expeditious access to a military installation with a phone call and maybe an email.  They DO NOT justify giving a CAP member open access to a base anytime they want.  Very few CAP members in our organization meet this criteria.  Those members are issued ID cards IAW the approval process I stated.

That may be the case at YOUR base. As a wing staff member, I have a base access card for one base I need to get on. If you are not on a pre-approved list, there is no on-the-spot access to this base. A phone call or email will NOT get someone on the base unless everything is done well in advance of the member arriving. An MSA requires three weeks advance notice to get.

I DO NOT support adding another family of ID cards to pass and ID's management when there are other avenues available that work well.  The added cost DOES NOT justify the overall expense - in my humble, 21 year and counting AF career opinion.

When you are on an AF wing or squadron command staff, responsible for the base's O&M management, maybe you'll have some credibility to throw around insults and be a troll.

The AF allows each base to establish access rules and procedures. Some bases require an act of God to get on. Others just require a driver's license and CAP membership card. At one time, a 101 card worked on some bases. The two bases I access have very different procedures. One is the d/l and membership card for the member - they cannot bring anyone else one with them, including parents of cadets. The other requires a specific base access card. No card, no entry.

[Short Field]

The two bases I access have very different procedures. One is the d/l and membership card for the member - they cannot bring anyone else one with them, including parents of cadets. The other requires a specific base access card. No card, no entry.

Makes you wonder why the base commander at the one base restricts CAP members.  Something had to have started that restriction and been a big enough reason to keep getting passed from commander to commander. 

[Cecil DP]

The two bases I access have very different procedures. One is the d/l and membership card for the member - they cannot bring anyone else one with them, including parents of cadets. The other requires a specific base access card. No card, no entry.

Makes you wonder why the base commander at the one base restricts CAP members.  Something had to have started that restriction and been a big enough reason to keep getting passed from commander to commander. 

Every base has or is supposed to have a CAP Liason assigned by the base commander. Has anyone contacted him/her to find out what needs to be done to get the base access?

[PHall]

The two bases I access have very different procedures. One is the d/l and membership card for the member - they cannot bring anyone else one with them, including parents of cadets. The other requires a specific base access card. No card, no entry.

Makes you wonder why the base commander at the one base restricts CAP members.  Something had to have started that restriction and been a big enough reason to keep getting passed from commander to commander.

All it takes is one bad experience with a CAP member to screw things up.
And the "easiest" solution for the Base Commander is to restrict access by CAP. If they're not on "their" base, then they won't cause them any problems.
And it's perfectly legal too.

[Spike]

Good grief.  How clear do I have to try to make this?

My opinion is simple.  I do not support the idea that DoD should be issuing ID cards for CAP members as a whole.  IF there are exceptions, as deemed by the installation commander and the mission, they can be issued one.  But that has to meet some pretty tight criteria.

Again I will say; There are OTHER ID cards available from the Federal Government, and other places to get them than at an AIR FORCE BASE. 

I have an issue with the rather lax, borderline insulting attitude by a few members on this board.  Let's take a quick tour, shall we?

Get over it!  We don't have to like what you like, we don't even have to like you.  In fact, I think your ideas and posts are full of misinformation and incredibly inaccurate idealogy. 

When you are on an AF wing or squadron command staff, responsible for the base's O&M management, maybe you'll have some credibility to throw around insults and be a troll.

Umm.....what?!?!  Again, get off your soap box.  You are missing my point entirely.  What does being on an AIR FORCE staff have to do with our discussions here??  Let me give you a lesson in how DEERS enrollment and RAPIDS Offices work.  The employees of these offices and the offices alone are funded by the DOD, not the local AIR FORCE BASE.  Most of them now have private contractors running the offices.  For Credentialing Offices outside of the military base they are funded through supplemental expense programs of the GSA.  GSA runs more Government ID offices than all of the military services offices combined.

But to you, unless we agree with what you have to say we are only trolls.  We are not worthy of presenting ideas or debate. 

It is not difficult to give CAP members a Government ID Card.  Heck, it can be a DHS card, a CAC (of the nonmilitary variety!) or a freaking Airport ID card for those members needing access to the Airfields.   

[Short Field]

It is not difficult to give CAP members a Government ID Card.  Heck, it can be a DHS card, a CAC (of the nonmilitary variety!) or a freaking Airport ID card for those members needing access to the Airfields.   

There is still no case for issing CAP members a Government ID Card to begin with.  If CAP members NEED to get on a military base, then there are ways to get them on base.   

[BillB]

I guess Short Field doesn't fly CAP aircraft from airports that have airline operations. A "govertment issued ID" is required for access to the flightline. TSA is getting strict on general aviation having the ramp badge/pass.

[sparks]

If the airport has scheduled airline service pilots will need an ID to access the ramp, hanger area etc. We can't get through the gate to our hanget row without an electronic coded pass card.

The government Id shirt field is probably refering to is either the CAC or locally issued installatin ID card. Retirees have those too not just DOD employees and contract staff.

The issue really is whether the base commander or his staff is interested enough to
provide CAP access with temporary or permanent (expiring) ID cards. Those with established relationships get them and those without it probably won't.
The money comment would be used as an excuse not to issue cards.

[Gunner C]

Here's the way to do it. 

• Have a demonstrated need to get on base
• Have your squadron commander, group commander, and wing commander endorse a memo to the region commander justifying the need
• Region commander endorses the memo to the CAP-USAF Liaison Region Commander
• CAP-USAF Liaison Region Commander writes a memo to the base commander requesting base access and CAC card, giving the justification and start/end dates (not to exceed the current membership expiration date)

• Members involved with projects such as ARCHER could be given a two year expiration
• This system puts our liaison system in the mix where they should be
• It would also give USAF oversight that is familiar with the mission

IMHO, this would be the way to go.  You need RM types making the request while using the CAP chain of command to verify the need.  I think this is reasonable and balanced.

Why would one base say "OK" and another say "heck no"?  Difference in missions would be one reason.  If a commander feels that his mission security requirements outweigh the benefits of the CAP mission, then it's a no-brainer. 

But as stated above, this should be by exception.  A CAC card, even one designed for contractors, is something that needs to be protected.  The card holders would need to realize that after the first "stupid infraction" the program would vanish.  Commanders would need to do a gut check and make it clear to those cardholders that misconduct would be dealt with harshly, probably beginning with demotion and escalating rapidly from there. 

[NCRblues]

You could have a DHS cac card, but that does not grant you accesses to a DOD instillation. DOD doesn't answer to DHS. FBI, CIA, DHS still needs the base commander's approval to enter his instillation. So even with a DHS cac, you will still need to be on an ECL (entry control list) at the gate, and that requires phone calls and letters from your chain of command, so were back to where we were in the first place. Just because you get a federal ID it doesn't mean you need access to DOD instillations. You need a DOD id.

I am still not sure what we desperately need full base access for? No one has given a good reason for it.

One of the reason's someone said was some units meet on an instillation. Well, if their meeting on the instillation already, something tells me they get access no problem, but that's just me. If something is working, why are we going to try and fix it?

What other reason does cap need open access to instillations? Clothing sales? That would be a waste of time and money because the card is issued to one person, not everyone in a unit.
Flight line access is restricted anyway; you need a restricted area badge to get on a flight line so cac cards won't help there.

I am at a loss of why cap needs full access.

[RiverAux]

No need to go through Region to CAP-USAF, that is what we have CAP-USAF State Directors for.  They are there to work with local military on issues just like this. 

[Short Field]

I guess Short Field doesn't fly CAP aircraft from airports that have airline operations. A "govertment issued ID" is required for access to the flightline. TSA is getting strict on general aviation having the ramp badge/pass.

So my DD Form 2A (ret) is going to take care of the TSA badge requirement for AOAs?   If we are talking about getting access badges to aircraft opeation areas on airfields that support scheduled airline flights, then lets discuss that issue (and it has nothing to do with getting open access to a military base).

[Gunner C]

No need to go through Region to CAP-USAF, that is what we have CAP-USAF State Directors for.  They are there to work with local military on issues just like this.

If you want something that is going to affect security, you'd better have an active duty commander request it, not a civilian.  The state director is fine for participation letters, but something like this, you need to have a commander-to-commander communication.  When one commander sees another one making a "you bet your bars" request (something that's a career killer if it goes wrong), then it has a better chance of going through.  A GS-12 just isn't going to make it.  For CAC cards, you're going to need horsepower, something the SD just doesn't have.

[RADIOMAN015]

[If you want something that is going to affect security, you'd better have an active duty commander request it, not a civilian.  The state director is fine for participation letters, but something like this, you need to have a commander-to-commander communication.  When one commander sees another one making a "you bet your bars" request (something that's a career killer if it goes wrong), then it has a better chance of going through.  A GS-12 just isn't going to make it.  For CAC cards, you're going to need horsepower, something the SD just doesn't have.

Unless CAP members meet on a military base (at a designated use facility), or there's an AF BX selling uniform items, there really is no reason for ANY CAP member to be on that installation unless it has been previously coordinated by a CAP (CAP USAF) official, recognized by the base.

RM

[High Speed Low Drag]

If I re-read the thread correctly, this thread is about the NEC wanting to have positive identification of CAP members (particularly Seniors) for general membership and mission-specific purposes.  The thread has wound down to getting on an AD base and DOD / CAC cards.

Let's get back to the thoughts of why the NEC wants to accomplish positive identification and the easiest, most effective ways to do it.  My proposal:

IDs are right down my professional line I have fingerprinted several senior members for their cards, and signed it as "Lt. G. St. Pierre, LRPD."  I have no problem if the FBI wanted to call and verify who I was, but it would be hard to do if I hadn't ID'd my agency.

My opinion – require that the fingerprint card be accompanied by a CAPF that the printing agency/tech fills out.  A simple form, but one that would require & instruct the printing agency to verify the identity of the person requesting FPing.  This could be done by a state-issued DL, or ID, and a secondary form of ID.  The FPing tech/officer would then fill in their Name, Rank, Employee ID (or Badge) Number, Agency, Agency Contact Number, Agency Address, and ORI.  This form, signed, would accompany the Fingerprint card.  (I would even prefer that the information be pre-printed on the back of the card.)  When the SQ Commander accepts the application and the card w/ form, they would also review the identification of the person and verify again that everything matches.  If they have any question or suspect something, it wouldn't be hard to contact the FPing agency and verify the information.

Then everything goes as normal.  They would receive the current non-picture ID card.  However, within 60 days, the member would be required to submit their picture and have the picture ID card sent out from National.  The added requirement would be that before access to any training / actual mission or access to any base, the CAP member would have to present the picture ID along with the state-issued ID. 

This would prevent from overloading "govt-issuing facilities," while still providing for positive ID of members.
I agree with Maj. Carrales, I really wouldn't want the average CAP member running around with a DOD card without a whole lot more vetting.

This was outlined with the thought of reducing as much "work" as possible, establishing "positive ID," and keeping it low-cost to all involved.

[SarDragon]

Speaking of fingerprint card signatures, I have signed a whole bunch of them as, D.E. Bowles, Maj, CAP, and haven't had a single one kicked back because of the signature.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Speaking of fingerprint card signatures, I have signed a whole bunch of them as, D.E. Bowles, Maj, CAP, and haven't had a single one kicked back because of the signature.

Interesting - Conventional Wisdom around here says that a LE agency must do the fingerprinting.

[RiverAux]

Nope, they're just usually the only ones with the fingerprinting gear.  Its not unusual for squadrons to do it themselves if they've got the stuff and can get a clear set of prints. 

[Major Carrales]

Nope, they're just usually the only ones with the fingerprinting gear.  Its not unusual for squadrons to do it themselves if they've got the stuff and can get a clear set of prints.

I concur, the local Flotilla has folks that provide the service.

[SarDragon]

Nope, they're just usually the only ones with the fingerprinting gear.  Its not unusual for squadrons to do it themselves if they've got the stuff and can get a clear set of prints.

We have the kit, and I learned how to do prints before I joined CAP. A school bud's dad was a cop, and taught me how. The lessons were reinforced when I worked at Pass & Tag in the Navy.

[flynd94]

I guess Short Field doesn't fly CAP aircraft from airports that have airline operations. A "govertment issued ID" is required for access to the flightline. TSA is getting strict on general aviation having the ramp badge/pass.

So my DD Form 2A (ret) is going to take care of the TSA badge requirement for AOAs?   If we are talking about getting access badges to aircraft opeation areas on airfields that support scheduled airline flights, then lets discuss that issue (and it has nothing to do with getting open access to a military base).

Unless you have an aircraft based there, submit to a background investigation you (CAP) will never have free access to ramps with scheduled 121 Ops.  I know that AOPA is fighting this ruling from the TSA/DOT but, I do believe they will not succeed in get this changed.

I have personally witness TSA agents going ballistic at small airports (MCE and VIS) regarding this.  I had a little kid (probably under 8 ) cross the AOA line in VIS and, TSA going nuts.  The child never got within 15ft of my aircraft before his parents stopped him.  We ended up having to re-screen all the passengers, the luggage, our luggage, us and, they tore apart my aircraft looking for the "bomb" the kid planted.

[lordmonar]

Nope, they're just usually the only ones with the fingerprinting gear.  Its not unusual for squadrons to do it themselves if they've got the stuff and can get a clear set of prints.

We have the kit, and I learned how to do prints before I joined CAP. A school bud's dad was a cop, and taught me how. The lessons were reinforced when I worked at Pass & Tag in the Navy.

They are not that hard.

I do all the finger printing for my squadron....never was an LE type.

[Smokey]

Ahh the TSA....incompetence at it's zenith.  They are proof often times that the theory of evolution passed them up.  Example...As a cop I have a 6 pt star as a badge.  I can't tell you how many times they have wanted to confiscate it as a "throwing star."  They hand searched a fellow officer who had a tie tac that was shaped like a Colt .45-about 1/3 inch in length and 1/10 inch thick. They accused him of trying to smuggle a firearm onboard.  When he presented ID he show his police ID, they said it wasn't govt issued  (he was NYPD), then he showed his CAC (reserve Army Capt), again not good enuf.  Finally they accepted his driver's license!!!
Many TSA folks are so lost they could not find thier way out of a closet with an INS,GPS,charts and a guide dog.

[Cecil DP]

Ahh the TSA....incompetence at it's zenith.  They are proof often times that the theory of evolution passed them up.  Example...As a cop I have a 6 pt star as a badge.  I can't tell you how many times they have wanted to confiscate it as a "throwing star."  They hand searched a fellow officer who had a tie tac that was shaped like a Colt .45-about 1/3 inch in length and 1/10 inch thick. They accused him of trying to smuggle a firearm onboard.  When he presented ID he show his police ID, they said it wasn't govt issued  (he was NYPD), then he showed his CAC (reserve Army Capt), again not good enuf.  Finally they accepted his driver's license!!!
Many TSA folks are so lost they could not find thier way out of a closet with an INS,GPS,charts and a guide dog.

About 5 years ago the late BG Joe Foss, who was also a former Governor of SD,  was boarding a plane in Phoenix, when he was caught trying to smuggle his Congressional Medal of Honor through the check point. The TSA tried to confiscate it, until someone with common sense cleared him.

[PHall]

And people wonder why most people think that TSA stands for Those Stupid A......s.

[Ned]

Perfect.

Let's spend more time bashing underpaid government employees whose unpleasant and unpopular job is performed under conditions none of us can fully appreciate.

Let's do when they can't respond.

And let's do it anonymously.

This is an excellent use of CAPTalk bandwidth.


What was the topic of this thread?  I forget.

Ned Lee

[Spike]

^ No one forces anyone to take a job anywhere, or anytime.  This is the United States, we all have the freedom to do what we want.  If TSA was as terrible as it seems would we have any TSA workers at all?  Thats right, health insurance, governemnt retirement benefits, a stable job, progressive investment programs, childcare and everything else associated with Government work.  That must be one terrible career field.

Seriously, if you google for "TSA workers with criminal backgrounds" you would be surprised to see what type of people got hired by the FED and received a Gov't ID Card, but if they were to join CAP would not get past the fingerprinting. 

As far as the NEC goes, they need a real mission, or we will continue to see less than important ideas coming from that group.

[Cecil DP]

Perfect.

Let's spend more time bashing underpaid government employees whose unpleasant and unpopular job is performed under conditions none of us can fully appreciate.

Let's do when they can't respond.

And let's do it anonymously.

This is an excellent use of CAPTalk bandwidth.


What was the topic of this thread?  I forget.

Ned Lee

I understand that 99.9% of all the TSA and other security people are doing a great job, made more difficult everytime there is a major incident, I only ask that in the examples given here of Joe Foss and the NYC Police Officer some common sense had been used.

[Smokey]

From CBS news Los Angeles Jan 6....

"TSA agents are there to keep the skies safe. but we uncovered an afterhours party where TSA agents were allegedly caught on tape using drugs. It comes as LAX is beefing up security in the wake of the Chritsmas bombing attempt."
The investigation began late last year when a TSA Agent was arrested for allegedly counterfeiting parking passes here at the employee parking lot. In his house, police found a videotape. On it was an afterhours party where other TSA agents were allegedly using drugs. These are the same people in charge of screening our bags. Making sure travelers are safe. But perhaps high on drugs.

Counterfeit passes and drugs....yet CAP still can't get on airports and some military bases to locate ELTs !!!!!

[Майор Хаткевич]

Do you think CAP doesn't have it's shady characters like that?

[Smokey]

Sure CAP has some shady characters, but the point is some TSA folks haven't enough intelligence to tell the difference between a police badge, the Medal of Honor and a throwing star and claiming a tie tac is a firearm is beyond belief. They will accept the lowest form of ID that can be counterfeited (a drivers license , which by the way can be had in Los Angeles in less than an hour by counterfeiters for $20) but not a militray ID card nor a police ID!!!   Yet a CAP member trying to track down an ELT at the airport that has Part 121 ops is treated as a greater threat than the underwearbomber.

Something is wrong with this picture.  Every CAP senior member has at least had an FBI fingerprint check, not so for the zillions of folks just showing a driver's license.

[desertengineer1]

Sure CAP has some shady characters, but the point is some TSA folks haven't enough intelligence to tell the difference between a police badge, the Medal of Honor and a throwing star and claiming a tie tac is a firearm is beyond belief. They will accept the lowest form of ID that can be counterfeited (a drivers license , which by the way can be had in Los Angeles in less than an hour by counterfeiters for $20) but not a militray ID card nor a police ID!!!   Yet a CAP member trying to track down an ELT at the airport that has Part 121 ops is treated as a greater threat than the underwearbomber.

Something is wrong with this picture.  Every CAP senior member has at least had an FBI fingerprint check, not so for the zillions of folks just showing a driver's license.

I have used my military ID on every business trip, averaging at least every two weeks in the past nine years.  I've experienced no such incidents.  99% of the trips have had nothing less than courteous treatment.  They have inspected the ID card closely in every case.  When in military uniform, the treatment has been amazing.

I'm hearing a lot of stories, but have yet to see such.  And I travel frequently.

However, I've seen more than my share of belligerant travelers, whose anger is directly focused on the TSA employee.  I have nothing but respect for their patience.

[heliodoc]

Got to agree with desertengineer

Back and forth this week to Emmitsburg,MD. They were nothing but fair to me this time around also.

Can't say that I admire there post in life and granted no one forces them to work there....After this 6 month  layoff I MAY even have to consider luggage fondling for a second career. 

CAP' ers here can say whatever they want....... I don't think Global Security or whatever contractors in the past at many an airport were ANY brighter than TSA.  This country COULD go the way of the CCC and WPA AGAIN.   TSA...... a form of of the CCC.  Or as some put it...working welfare in a uniform.  I am sure there would be a ALOT of CAP bellyachin then....

   Let it be said....TSA does not have a admirable mission.  WE COULD go the way of Israel.....I hear and READ ..THEY do a little profiling

We would in tougher shape IF we had a TOUGHER airport security as in Israel......might even take LONGER to get to gate then...

Then there would be ALOT of bellyachin from the general public and CAP'ers alike....How 'bout we try that route???  It may even be headed that way in the future.   Maybe not