Has CAP become an EMA?????

[flyguy06]

I wasnt sugeesting CAP was an EMA. It was a metephor. I said it seems likew e are becomming a EMA "like" organization. Meaning the members have an "EMA" mindset. meaning they want to wear polo shirt s and cargo pants as opposed to military uniforms. They want to do away with military uniforms and military customs and curteousies. They would prefer to call each other Bill and Mike as opposed to MAJ Smith and Capt Louis. They walk around with their hands in their pockets.

Thats what I mean by an EMA like organization Not an EMA organization. Frankly we are getting away from everything military becomming more "civilian" I even read a proposal to elect commanders as opposed to appoint them. Again, thats a very "civilian" mindset. And the USAF didnt like that idea

[Eclipse]

I wasnt sugeesting CAP was an EMA. It was a metephor. I said it seems likew e are becomming a EMA "like" organization. Meaning the members have an "EMA" mindset. meaning they want to wear polo shirt s and cargo pants as opposed to military uniforms. They want to do away with military uniforms and military customs and curteousies. They would prefer to call each other Bill and Mike as opposed to MAJ Smith and Capt Louis. They walk around with their hands in their pockets.

Thats what I mean by an EMA like organization Not an EMA organization. Frankly we are getting away from everything military becomming more "civilian" I even read a proposal to elect commanders as opposed to appoint them. Again, thats a very "civilian" mindset. And the USAF didnt like that idea

Fly, you really need to separate your local perception from national reality.
CAP ES operations and military demeanor and courtesies are by no means mutually exclusive.

That proposal was here, it was dead-air-filling nonsense.

The practical reality is that the majority of ES in this country is performed by civil agencies, supplemented by the military and related agencies when needed. If we want to work and play well with these customers, we have to adjust our operations and demeanor to be a good-fit partner, not a PITA.  If that means dialing down the FMJ a little when FEMA or the local PD/FD is in the room, so be it.  That doesn't mean we're abandoning our military heritage, or that things shouldn't be done properly every time else or when we are playing by ourselves.

[Rotorhead]

They would prefer to call each other Bill and Mike as opposed to MAJ Smith and Capt Louis.

As has been stated many times on this board, there are a lot of AD folks who do this.

Frankly, you're starting to sound like the Military Wannabees when you worry about stuff like this.

[aveighter]

If I am not mistaken our friend flyguy06 is a Military Actuallyis.

How about a good definition of "Military Wannabee".  And, just out of curiosity, what was your MOS back in the day?

[Rotorhead]

If I am not mistaken our friend flyguy06 is a Military Actuallyis.

How about a good definition of "Military Wannabee". 

Note that I said he "sounds like" a wannbee.

My definition of that, because you asked, is someone who joins CAP, which has been around for over 60 years, then decides it needs to be "more military" to suit them, as if the organization ought to change because they'd like being in CAP to be the same as being a member of a military unit.

It's a pretty simple concept: If he's a "military actuallyis," then he needs to enjoy the C&C aspect of that job while at work and stop complaining that CAP, which is a civilian auxiliary, is not "military" enough to suit him.

Then again, every time we get him upset, he says he's going to quit CAP, so maybe he'd like TP's US Rangers better.

[Short Field]

And, just out of curiosity, what was your MOS back in the day?

How about AFSC??  After all this is the AF Aux - not the Army Aux.   

[wuzafuzz]

And, just out of curiosity, what was your MOS back in the day?

It's always interesting to learn about one anothers' experiences, but I hope there isn't a perception the opinions of those without military experience are less valid.  On some issues, sure.  Not a factor in this discussion as far as I can tell.

[Eclipse]

And, just out of curiosity, what was your MOS back in the day?

It's always interesting to learn about one anothers' experiences, but I hope there isn't a perception the opinions of those without military experience are less valid.  On some issues, sure.  Not a factor in this discussion as far as I can tell.

Nor should Fly's desire to stay close to CAP's military heritage be taken as anything but face value - its an important part of who we were and are and should not be denied for expediency or political correctness.

[Rotorhead]

And, just out of curiosity, what was your MOS back in the day?

It's always interesting to learn about one anothers' experiences, but I hope there isn't a perception the opinions of those without military experience are less valid.  On some issues, sure.  Not a factor in this discussion as far as I can tell.

Nor should Fly's desire to stay close to CAP's military heritage be taken as anything but face value - its an important part of who we were and are and should not be denied for expediency or political correctness.

To be clear, I am not advocating that we do that.

I have had trouble understanding from Post #1 on this topic how FG believes doing ES makes us less "military."

Several people have pointed out that they're not mutually exclusive.

[Eclipse]

To be clear, I am not advocating that we do that.

I have had trouble understanding from Post #1 on this topic how FG believes doing ES makes us less "military."

Several people have pointed out that they're not mutually exclusive.

They aren't, but I have seen it happen myself.  For better or worse this organization is permeated with "specialists" who believe the only thing important is their "thing", and anything which gets in the way of that "thing" is irrelevant to their reality.

Regs, uniforms, courtesies, discipline, even teamwork, all take extra effort over and above the cowboy mentality of "Let's go rezq them peeps!".

Couple the above with working with civil, and civilian, agencies that have no history or expectation of anything but lowest common denominator performance and you can see where those with the inclination towards the slack can adopt it and allow it to permeate their programs.

Those of you who have had real success in ES, and certainly those with military experience, understand that its exactly that discipline and attention to detail that irons out the trivial decisions when things get "sporty" and gives you the mental bandwidth to deal with the situation directly.

Those of you who know me would say that I enjoy the creature comforts, and generally wear a uniform which suits the duty with an eye towards that comfort, but in the same breath they would tell you that I also am anal about whatever I choose, and am a stickler for courtesies and procedures beyond the minimum.  I depend on that for the reasons stated above, respect those who understand it as well, and have seen plenty of people who "know better" collapse under fairly low pressure because they have no secondary.

The simple act of wearing a golf shirt in the ICP vs. a flight suit, or "other", doesn't necessitate a full-scale loss of military discipline, however I've certainly seen the behavior exhibited in many who wear it, especially if that's all they have because of some bizarre "poser" attitude about the more military combos.

Its also an interesting dynamic in the mind of many of the general public, and even some of our members, that can disdain the discipline, courtesies and procedures of the military at the micro level, yet still seeks out that same behavior as "best practice" and "goto guys" at the macro level.  I believe this is the "Hollywood Syndrome", where every officer is an idiot, every enlisted man lazy or corrupt, except for the hero....

[RiverAux]

For better or worse this organization is permeated with "specialists" who believe the only thing important is their "thing", and anything which gets in the way of that "thing" is irrelevant to their reality.

I guess we're more like the Air Force than we thought...

[Short Field]

The simple act of wearing a golf shirt in the ICP vs. a flight suit, or "other", doesn't necessitate a full-scale loss of military discipline, however I've certainly seen the behavior exhibited in many who wear it, especially if that's all they have because of some bizarre "poser" attitude about the more military combos.

You put way too much faith in some of the people who always wear the military combos.    Rank in CAP is based on Professional Development.  That does not equate to Leadership Development as rank does in the military.  I see too many "field grade" officers who lack the leadership skills to lead urine out of a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel.   I also don't automatically assume someone who only wears military combos as being "posers".  I judge people on how they perform and not on the uniform they wear.  I expect everyone on a mission to treat each other with the professional courtesy and respect CAP Core values demand of us.

I personally never really thought about uniforms outside of wearing the "appropriate" and legal CAP uniform the regulations required for the functions I was accomplishing.  However, it started to rile me a bit to hear people talking (and chatting on CAP Talk) about how "unprofessional" someone was just because they didn't wear a military style uniform and how much better someone else was just because they wore a military style uniform.  Leadership, discipline, and respectful behavior are not defined by the uniform you wear.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I am an Observer who has been in all three types of CAP squadrons.

If anyone doubts that CAP is letting Cadet Programs slide, check out an active Cadet Squadron.

I have an old friend who is a police officer, and I lived in close proximity to a fire station at one time.  If I, as a CAP member, can do anything within the purview of CAP's missions to make life a little easier for these types, I'm good with that.

[flyguy06]

I am not neccessarily saying CAP is letting the cadet program slide. I guess I am having trouble saying what I mean in words.

Let me put it this way. I see CAP capt's and LT's calling CAP MAJ's and LTC's by their first name instead of by their rank. thats something you typically see in a LE or Fire or EMS environment and something you dont see in a military environment.

Another example. I see senior membrs in uniform walking around with their hands in their pockets and not saltuing those of higher rank or saying sir or ma'am. Yeah, not a real big deal. But again, not something you would see of a professional military officer.

When they are corrected on proper military protocal they laugh as if it is a joke or something. And you get responses like "Yeah, its been 30 years since I did that stuff heh heh heh"

So that what I mean when Isay the "mindset" is that of an EMA organization and not that of an auxillary of a military organization. These guys do their missions great, thats not  the issue. The issue I was addressing was the mindset of the memebrs. Great guys all of them but I wonder if they really see CAP as an auxillary of the Air Force  like an state defense force or do they see CAP as an emergency services organization "similar" to a volunteer fire department?

[NEBoom]

Interesting topic, and I think a conversation/discussion/debate we should have amongst ourselves.  I'll add a couple of things in here but be forewarned they are my typical over/under thoughts (over-simplistic and under-developed  ).

Let me put it this way. I see CAP capt's and LT's calling CAP MAJ's and LTC's by their first name instead of by their rank. thats something you typically see in a LE or Fire or EMS environment and something you dont see in a military environment.

I was in the ANG for 14 years and I have to admit we were probably as bad about this as CAP tends to be.  I can't speak for the active duty, but after you've worked around the same group for so many years, it tends to become more informal.  I'm not saying that it's right, but it is the reality.

Another example. I see senior membrs in uniform walking around with their hands in their pockets and not saltuing those of higher rank or saying sir or ma'am. Yeah, not a real big deal. But again, not something you would see of a professional military officer.

Again comparing/contrasting my ANG and CAP lives, I'd say in the Guard we were better about hands in pockets and things like wearing hats outdoors and keeping pockets buttoned than CAP is, but we were slack in saluting.  I probably saluted more when at CAP meetings than when at Guard drill, likely because I was aware of the cadets' presence and was trying to set a good example for them.

When they are corrected on proper military protocal they laugh as if it is a joke or something. And you get responses like "Yeah, its been 30 years since I did that stuff heh heh heh"

Ran in to this exact attitude in the ANG, believe it or not.  If you tried to push protocol and/or C&C you tended to come off as "ate up."  Not a reputation you wanted.

Thinking back on it now though, it was a funny thing.  There was like a mental switch that was flipped when it was time to "get to work" and actually do the mission (vs. the normal drill enviornment which centered on training).  The change in people when we started a big exercise for example, was almost palpable.  You didn't see a massive increase in C&C, but you did see a "seriousness" take over.  So in the end, that professionalism was there, but it seemed to only show itself when the situation required.

So that what I mean when Isay the "mindset" is that of an EMA organization and not that of an auxillary of a military organization. These guys do their missions great, thats not  the issue. The issue I was addressing was the mindset of the memebrs. Great guys all of them but I wonder if they really see CAP as an auxillary of the Air Force  like an state defense force or do they see CAP as an emergency services organization "similar" to a volunteer fire department?

And here is the true debate.  I've noticed in my Wing that most folks wo are in the operations side of the house see it as an ES organization (and tend to be more informal), and the folks in CP and PD tend to see it as the AF Aux (more "professional").  Oddly enough, AE tends to lean more toward the informal.  Someone on here long ago described it as the "schizophrenia of CAP."

Personally I think along the same lines as Eclipse:

Those of you who have had real success in ES, and certainly those with military experience, understand that its exactly that discipline and attention to detail that irons out the trivial decisions when things get "sporty" and gives you the mental bandwidth to deal with the situation directly.

I see the disciplines that are learned and become ingrained in a person through the practice of protocol, C&C, and good uniform wear as supportive and complimentary to the performance of our ES mission.  Many of us don't see that connection, or don't recognize its importance.  I also agree that the uniform you choose to wear should have no bearing on your professionalism or attitude.

The question is, how do we push for the culture and attitude change that's needed without coming off as "ate up?"  Or do we already have that discipline?  Do we have the capacity to flip that mental switch when the situation requires?

[flyguy06]

Yes, i have been in the army guard for 20 years now and even it  has changed withthe times. You are correct, even inthe guard the saluting is very minmal. many civvies dont realize this but back inthe 70's and 80's Guard drill consisted of drinking beer and watchng college football games. It wasnt until dersert Storm when Guard units stated getting activiated and they realized "Hey, we need to take this military stuff seriously" that things started to change. Soldiers andairmen started actually doing their jobs and taking them seriously.


But, back to CAP. The question was how do we push for a culture change? By  targeting more recently retired militaryoflks and former cadets. audience of who we recruit.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Even within Guard and Reserve units the YMMV rule can apply to customs and courtesies, though not as widely as in CAP.

It can be kind of jarring for a new Airman/Private/Seaman coming out of basic training, after having C/C drilled into them (loudly) for weeks/months to hear E-7's and E-4's calling one another by name, or 0-3's and 0-6's.  Especially for the Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard (?, not sure about the CG) where they have to call MTI's, DI's and CC's "sir" or "ma'am" during basic.

I remember a young Army private almost soiling himself because he thought he didn't salute me, a CAP officer, properly.  I tried to explain to him that he didn't have to, but I don't think he got it.  I think all he saw was the bars.

When we're having BS sess...<cough> administrative meetings, we usually call one another by name, but in the presence of the cadets and among the general public it's always by rank.

I just wish we could come up with something more operational-sounding than "Senior Member" for those who haven't got their 2LT's yet...

[Eclipse]

I remember a young Army private almost soiling himself because he thought he didn't salute me, a CAP officer, properly.  I tried to explain to him that he didn't have to, but I don't think he got it.  I think all he saw was the bars.

Please never do that again.  Let him apologize, salute, and move on.

[flyguy06]

Ok, this is for everyone. Please remeber that just because you use an acronym doesnt mean thateveryone knows what it means. I have no idea what YMMV menas. So please write it out then acronym it from thenon.

Eclipse. I totally agree with you. WHy do we apologize to military folks and tell them they dont have to salute? Its not like theyare oreder not to salute. If they do it, just greet them and salute back. You folks act its a bad thing to be saluted. Its not. Its a curteousy just salute back and drive on.

[arajca]

Ok, this is for everyone. Please remeber that just because you use an acronym doesnt mean thateveryone knows what it means. I have no idea what YMMV menas. So please write it out then acronym it from thenon.

A couple common acronyms:
IIRC - If I Recall Correctly
YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary
IMHO - In My Humble Opinion
IMNO - In My Not-so-humble Opinion
IMO - In My Opinion
IAW - In Accordance With
RTFM - Read The F(fill in the rest)'n Manual
CAP - Civil Air Patrol (official), Come And Pay (common)

Remember the reason we use acronyms is so we DON'T have to spell everything out. If you see one you don't know, a common practice is the reply with just the acronym followed by a question mark, like so:
YMMV?

Any of a number of posters here will happily explain it.