Has CAP become an EMA?????

[heliodoc]

flyguy

I concur that CAP ought to stay with the basic three that they are capable of.  Nothing wrong with SDIS and ARCHER missions

But decisionmaking on the ground should be what is in CAP's lane and if by chance we get approved by Congress to do more DHS/ HLS missions.....CAP had better be ready and in more ways than worrying about polo shirts, lame ICL's, and even more weak regs like 39-1

DHS missions and EMA missions require more than what we do and we HAD better be ready to step up to the plate for REAL training and when it comes to aircrews....EVERY State has their own NESA and even more competent instructors that are NOT GOB's and pick and choose who their fly buddies are

Still concur with AE, flyguy

[flyguy06]

^ Actually our role before becoming official was not in support of the Army.  Even after founding it was "an Auxiliary of the Army" not the Air Corps.  It was one of many Army Auxiliaries.

During World War 2, we played much the same role as we play now.  Even though DHS did not exist, other agencies existed that CAP was created to support.  Notice the CAP symbols are very similar to Civil Defense.  You could say DHS and other agencies were a child of older agencies like Civil Defense.  Thus CAP has been doing what we always did.

If you don't like the ES part of CAP, that is OK.  No one is forcing you to start a ground team or participate on search missions, disaster relief or humanitarian aid missions.  Do what you want to do, be it Cadet Programs (which looks like what you primarily focus on), or Aerospace Education.

It does not matter what agency or agencies CAP sells its services to, we are always going to be the Air Force Auxiliary, with Air Force traditions, uniforms, and a Cadet Program.  Some parts of CAP HAVE TO CAHNGE, and MUST CHANGE because of our current situation in history.  We will evolve like every other organization in the US depending on the "climate" of things. 

I hope you don't leave just because we "look like a EMA".  We need members like you to help our future citizens be the best they can be.  That is why I joined, and am sure many others joined.  I also love to fly, and jump on any opportunity to take Cadets for their first ride in a plane.

I, like you have seen the change in the culture within CAP.  I know though that things will remain the same.  We will have Cadets, we will provide ES services and we will be a big part on educating people about Aerospace and future Aerospace (SPACE) subjects. 

Honestly I would love to see the Aerospace mission increase.  We need smart, educated and future forward thinking Americans.  That can only start with educating the youth of today (Wow......that is a catchy sentence I wrote...right?!?!).

Thanks Spike and you are right, I do love the cadet program and I like ES too dont get me wrong., But as far the culture change when I have so manysenior members caling me by my first name instead of addressing me by my proper rank  I am just not used to that. Its not an ego thing. I just like to be professional when in public.

[flyguy06]

flyguy

I concur that CAP ought to stay with the basic three that they are capable of.  Nothing wrong with SDIS and ARCHER missions

But decisionmaking on the ground should be what is in CAP's lane and if by chance we get approved by Congress to do more DHS/ HLS missions.....CAP had better be ready and in more ways than worrying about polo shirts, lame ICL's, and even more weak regs like 39-1

DHS missions and EMA missions require more than what we do and we HAD better be ready to step up to the plate for REAL training and when it comes to aircrews....EVERY State has their own NESA and even more competent instructors that are NOT GOB's and pick and choose who their fly buddies are

Still concur with AE, flyguy

Thanks heliodoc ,but I still think you may have missed my point. I maybe wrong of course

[SarDragon]

Thanks Spike and you are right, I do love the cadet program and I like ES too dont get me wrong., But as far the culture change when I have so manysenior members caling me by my first name instead of addressing me by my proper rank  I am just not used to that. Its not an ego thing. I just like to be professional when in public.

First names have a situational dependence. When there are no cadets around, most SMs I know use first names in the local area. When there are members from different units/echelons, I see more rank and last name usage. A few exceptions include the Wing, Region, and National Commanders, unless prompted otherwise. I know a bunch of MIWG folks who call MajGen Courter by her first name, but I haven't been accorded that privilege yet. Someday, maybe.

WIWOAD, I had very limited first name privileges with officers, on a purely social basis, and knew the rules for doing so. Sadly, many folks are clueless in that respect.

[brasda91]

But as far the culture change when I have so many senior members caling me by my first name instead of addressing me by my proper rank, I am just not used to that. Its not an ego thing. I just like to be professional when in public.

Being in the public is one thing.  Being at your local meeting or even a "senior member only" event is another.  Customs and Courtesies allow for seniors to address each other by first name when they do not have cadets present.  When cadets and I would even say when "civilians" are present, seniors address each other by their grade and last name.

[wuzafuzz]

The use of titles, without a doubt, is customary and usually expected in the military.  However, it is not the only way to present a professional image, even for people wearing the uniforms of other disciplines.  We will look more professional through competent performance of duties than through the use of titles that mean little outside CAP. 

Back to EMA's, many of them refer to people by names instead of their job or ICS titles.  Some law enforcement, fire, and EMS folks use rank.  Most other players don't.  When we go out to play with them, I suspect they won't care about our CAP grade and might even be confused by it.

[Flying Pig]

^I agree with that.  A lot of fire and LE operations, our rank means different things.  In CAP and the military, Capt or Lt is a dime-a-dozen.  In police work especially, Lt. or even Capt is a BIG SHOT.

[flyguy06]

Why does it make a diffeence if cadets are around or not as to wheather we act professionally by addressing each other by pro[er rank. I know senior members that feel like they earned their rank and want to be addressed as so.

Robert,

I agree withyou. rank inthe law enforcement has a differnt meaning thenrank inthe miitary but dont say its better. A military capt has earned it. Yes, I realize thatin LE LT's and Capts start at the bottem and work their way up andmost military officers come in as LT's but dont assert that just becaue of that that LE LT's are somehow beter than miitary LT's.  It may be different but neither is better than the other.

[Rotorhead]

Why does it make a diffeence if cadets are around or not as to wheather we act professionally by addressing each other by pro[er rank. I know senior members that feel like they earned their rank and want to be addressed as so.

Robert,

I agree withyou. rank inthe law enforcement has a differnt meaning thenrank inthe miitary but dont say its better. A military capt has earned it. Yes, I realize thatin LE LT's and Capts start at the bottem and work their way up andmost military officers come in as LT's but dont assert that just becaue of that that LE LT's are somehow beter than miitary LT's.  It may be different but neither is better than the other.

That's not what he's saying.

A police Lt will (usually) get more genuine respect amongst his peers than a military Lt because the military Lt may be a newly-minted butterbar who doesn't know anything, but a police Lt always has to work his way there...and the other cops know it.

Not better, just different, and treated as such.

[Spike]

That's not what he's saying.

A police Lt will (usually) get more genuine respect amongst his peers than a military Lt because the military Lt may be a newly-minted butterbar who doesn't know anything, but a police Lt always has to work his way there...and the other cops know it.

Not better, just different, and treated as such.

Incorrect assumptions all around.  My State appoints a State Police Commandant (a Colonel) and he or she may have never even been in LE before. 

It is a common misconception that new Commissioned Officers do not know anything.  Just because an Officer may be young does not mean he or she does not know more that those they lead. 

I would say that Police Lt's are usually political appointments instead of demonstrating knowledge skills or ability. 

See how we can all make assumptions about other groups.......

[Major Carrales]

Not better, just different, and treated as such.

One critical failing of many a CAPTALKER is the inability to understand and apply the above phrase.  Be it in discussion of issues with other agencies or even between CAP and the USAF.

Many people seem to think that CAP is inferior, as in somehow "worthless," compared to other organizations from which we have come to CAP. (be it the Active Duty Military, an Aviation Business or Law Enforcement) The fact is that CAP is its own thing, with its own traditions and unique facets.

"Cookie Cutter" application of the policies of others without factoring in the situations of CAP (volunteers, time requirements, work/CAP conflicts, family/CAP balance and the like) will always lead to problems larger than the ones such grafting of other organization policies was intended to solve.

[wuzafuzz]

Why does it make a diffeence if cadets are around or not as to wheather we act professionally by addressing each other by pro[er rank. I know senior members that feel like they earned their rank and want to be addressed as so.

As I said before, use of rank or grade titles is not the only way to act professional.  Around cadets, we push the military customs and courtesies.  When surrounded by adults with a job to do...it's different. 

It's not like our CAP grade reflects a chain of command, for the most part.  I find it a little strange if someone demands to be called by their title when there is no command authority attached to it. 

I am a squadron communications officer holding the CAP grade of 1st Lt, one of my ASSISTANTS is a Lt Col.  Most of my FRIENDS in CAP are Captains or better.  We respect each other's accomplishments and treat each other professionally. However, it's natural for us to use first names and somewhat awkward to insist on unnecessary formality.  Formal occasions are another matter.  Our titles do exist and should be recognized, but we need not get hung up on them.

I've seen military officers using first names in their work environment as well.  Not as common as in CAP, I'm sure, but not unheard of.

[wuzafuzz]

That's not what he's saying.

A police Lt will (usually) get more genuine respect amongst his peers than a military Lt because the military Lt may be a newly-minted butterbar who doesn't know anything, but a police Lt always has to work his way there...and the other cops know it.

Not better, just different, and treated as such.

Incorrect assumptions all around.  My State appoints a State Police Commandant (a Colonel) and he or she may have never even been in LE before. 

It is a common misconception that new Commissioned Officers do not know anything.  Just because an Officer may be young does not mean he or she does not know more that those they lead. 

I would say that Police Lt's are usually political appointments instead of demonstrating knowledge skills or ability. 

See how we can all make assumptions about other groups.......

Where I grew up a promotion in law enforcement is definitely earned.  They must earn their chops before promoting, some may turn out to be lousy supervisors but that's only realized after the fact.  As Flying Pig pointed out, a Lieutenant or Captain in law enforcement may be big taters.  Every agency is different. 

All this discussion is a sidebar to the main topic however: CAP as an EMA.  Our role is changing somewhat. At our recent SAREVAL we were told flat out that we are moving into more photo recon and Homeland Security missions, as well as support of disaster relief activities.  That won't detract from our cadet or AE activities, but our ES focus will be a bit different.  Hopefully that doesn't run people off; there is plenty of meaningful work to be done.

[SarDragon]

Why does it make a diffeence if cadets are around or not as to wheather we act professionally by addressing each other by pro[er rank. I know senior members that feel like they earned their rank and want to be addressed as so.

As I said before, use of rank or grade titles is not the only way to act professional.  Around cadets, we push the military customs and courtesies.  When surrounded by adults with a job to do...it's different. 

It's not like our CAP grade reflects a chain of command, for the most part.  I find it a little strange if someone demands to be called by their title when there is no command authority attached to it. 

I am a squadron communications officer holding the CAP grade of 1st Lt, one of my ASSISTANTS is a Lt Col.  Most of my FRIENDS in CAP are Captains or better.  We respect each other's accomplishments and treat each other professionally. However, it's natural for us to use first names and somewhat awkward to insist on unnecessary formality.  Formal occasions are another matter.  Our titles do exist and should be recognized, but we need not get hung up on them.

I've seen military officers using first names in their work environment as well.  Not as common as in CAP, I'm sure, but not unheard of.

+1000

Well stated, and he beat me to the punch. It's a very situational thing.

As for the military (specifically USN), it is very common for folks to use first names in their own working areas. Outside those areas, or when dealing with "customers", then the proper titles are used.

When officers are in areas devoid of enlisted folks, the first names flow like the Colorado, with a couple of exceptions, like the Skipper, and XO. It's all a part of the culture.

[flyguy06]

Agreed. Yes, in my Guard unit senior officers call junior officers by their first names all the time but it doesnt go up that way.

[brasda91]

That's understandable.  But for CAP, we're still civilans, even in uniform.  Therefore the ability to call each other by first names when in private.

[heliodoc]

Even this thread.... "Has CAP become an EMA???  has been hijacked to woorry about either uniforms or respect on the chain of command up and down and even woooooorrying about CAP member officers calling each other by their first names...

WOW

CAP an EMA ??    Not really.   I am going to get a bunch of EMA managers to read this forum, sometime and see what THEY think..  CAP an EMA uh huh

I suppose CAP would members would be woooried if Joe Schlichem, EMA, was / were to address CAP types by their first name and not their position/ rank / and title, too?  Would that send CAP folks on a disaster in to flurry if they were not addressed by their rank / grade?

How do these poste really related to EMA's anyhow??

[wuzafuzz]

Even this thread.... "Has CAP become an EMA???  has been hijacked to woorry about either uniforms or respect on the chain of command up and down and even woooooorrying about CAP member officers calling each other by their first names...

WOW

CAP an EMA ??    Not really.   I am going to get a bunch of EMA managers to read this forum, sometime and see what THEY think..  CAP an EMA uh huh

I suppose CAP would members would be woooried if Joe Schlichem, EMA, was / were to address CAP types by their first name and not their position/ rank / and title, too?  Would that send CAP folks on a disaster in to flurry if they were not addressed by their rank / grade?

How do these poste really related to EMA's anyhow??

It started as a sidebar to the issue of perceived culture differences between ES and cadet only activities.  That grew into comparisons of protocol related to titles used by real EMA's.  A diversion, true, but not by much since many posts on that "sub-topic" tied it back into the original question.  That's how. 

We'll be better off if we appreciate the differences between typical military culture and civilian emergency services types. I think this has been a useful discussion.

Who mentioned uniforms?

No, CAP is not an emergency management agency.  But we do support them and that is either a growing part of CAP or a partial shift away from SAR.

[flyguy06]

That's understandable.  But for CAP, we're still civilans, even in uniform.  Therefore the ability to call each other by first names when in private.

I guess thats the whole point of my original question. the culture has gone from an auxillary of a MILITARY organization to a culture of first responders. Therefore the people who join the organization have a different mindset than the ones who used to

All I am saying is a lot members view us as a pusedo military organizarion and they like that. If you take that away they will leave. In my area I have already ben approached by the USA cadet Corps and they are selling it hard. 

If CAP wants to be an EMA, thats fine, just let us know and make it official so those of us that like thew military aspect of can do what we need to do.

[RiverAux]

flyguy, we're doing EXACTLY the same sorts of missions we've been doing since CAP was started (with the exception of trying to sink subs).  We have always been geared towards emergency response and I suspect that is why most of our senior members have joined over the years.  They don't join just to be a member of a military auxiliary, they join because of what we do. 

Now, I do agree that the military aspect of CAP is important and I tend to agree that we probably have lost members due to the turn away from the military culture.  But, its not like we're developing a "first responder" culture in its place (whatever that means).