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Has CAP become an EMA?????

Started by flyguy06, August 02, 2009, 04:44:36 PM

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flyerthom

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 02, 2009, 04:44:36 PM
While at the Region Staff College I met members from all over. Mostly all I heard talk about was ES this and ES that and Operations that.

My RSC was almost the complete opposite. It seemed 80% were Cadet programs.  Myself and the one other member from my squadron were the only people from a Senior Squadron. The main tie was everyone there wanted to progress in the program.
TC

Major Carrales

Quote from: flyerthom on August 03, 2009, 03:47:39 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 02, 2009, 04:44:36 PM
While at the Region Staff College I met members from all over. Mostly all I heard talk about was ES this and ES that and Operations that.

My RSC was almost the complete opposite. It seemed 80% were Cadet programs.  Myself and the one other member from my squadron were the only people from a Senior Squadron. The main tie was everyone there wanted to progress in the program.

Which likely goes to show what I maintained in an above posting, all CAP is local.  Some areas are big on ES others on CP, but that does not make the programs mutually exclusive.  Some areas are not allowed to take the lead in ES, others are all some places have.  Some places have strong Cadet Programs producing an amazing amount of results, other places CAP cadets take second place to Scouts, US Army Cadets or even JROTC.

People are just going to have to accept the idea that CAP is more than the sum of its parts...and that those parts must exist together.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

flyguy06

Quote from: Major Carrales on August 03, 2009, 03:23:03 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on August 03, 2009, 02:43:15 PM
Depends on the audience you are trying to retain. if you are trying to retain firefighters and police officers and EMT's then yes, Todays operatiions would suffice. But if you are trying to retain military types. Not so much. I was approached a few weeks ago about joining the US cadet corps. They told me it was more military than CAP and a lot of CAP members were leaving and going over to that organization.  A lot of CAPers are apparently doing that.

I thought those people weren't trying to farm off our Cadets.  Where is that person, Lt Col Land?  If what you are saying is true, then I think I've got a bone to pick with him.

I don't follow your logic now.  You just said in a post that that the Intercity kids you work with have no interest in camping and hiking...only flying.  Why then would you pull your work out of CAP and into an organization that does not fly and that concentrates on the US Army which does encampments and teaches outdoor/wilderness survival?

Seems like you need to stay in CAP and reform it in your area to meet your needs.  Remember, all CAP is local.  That is why Squadron Commanders organize Unit activities and said activities are not planned at the Wing or National level.

Stick with it and chew back that frustration you probably get by reading about what people in other places are doing that doesn't seem to jive with the established realities of your squadron.  Just do what works and take what is good from everyone else and disgard what is irrelevant.

I never said the cadet corps folks were trying to recruit my cadets, I said they were talking to ME. Asking me to come over to their organization. never said anything about my cadets..

Thanks for the sentiment though. I will continue to forge ahead.

Johnny Yuma

#23
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 02, 2009, 10:26:44 PM
I would highly disagree with making it a requirement. Encourage, not require.

I disagree. ES should be just as much a part of the Cadet Program as Aerospace Ed and the Leadership Laboratory.

CAP is 3 parts: The cadet program, AE and ES. A cadet successfully completing the program should be progressing in all aspects, including ES.
"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"

" Skip a bit, brother."

"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:

davidsinn

#24
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on August 04, 2009, 11:32:02 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 02, 2009, 10:26:44 PM
I would highly disagree with making it a requirement. Encourage, not require.

I disagree. ES should be just as much a part of the Cadet Program as Aerospace Ed and the Leadership Laboratory.

CAP is 3 parts: The cadet program, AE and ES. A cadet successfully completing the program should be progressing in all aspects, including ES.

Except they shouldn't. It's stated in writing that ES is optional for cadets.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

jeancalvinus

Also, some squadrons are stuck with NO ES mission. There are a few states which by law do not allow CAP to get called into a situation until a specified time period has elapsed (48 hrs in some cases). So the end result is, the squadron never gets a call, and therefore never trains the ES mission. Sad but true.

NC Hokie

Quote from: Johnny Yuma on August 04, 2009, 11:32:02 PM
CAP is 3 parts: The cadet program, AE and ES. A cadet successfully completing the program should be progressing in all aspects, including ES.

Would you agree with the statement that "a senior member, successfully completing the program, should be progressing in all aspects, including CP?"
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy

flyguy06

My cadets are interested in being on Color Guards and flying airplanes.

Eclipse

Quote from: jeancalvinus on August 04, 2009, 11:44:30 PM
Also, some squadrons are stuck with NO ES mission. There are a few states which by law do not allow CAP to get called into a situation until a specified time period has elapsed (48 hrs in some cases). So the end result is, the squadron never gets a call, and therefore never trains the ES mission. Sad but true.

Cite please.

"That Others May Zoom"

Major Carrales

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2009, 02:33:04 AM
Quote from: jeancalvinus on August 04, 2009, 11:44:30 PM
Also, some squadrons are stuck with NO ES mission. There are a few states which by law do not allow CAP to get called into a situation until a specified time period has elapsed (48 hrs in some cases). So the end result is, the squadron never gets a call, and therefore never trains the ES mission. Sad but true.

Cite please.

I think it might be safer to say that some states do not have CAP as "first response" types. 
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Eclipse

#30
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 05, 2009, 03:03:15 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2009, 02:33:04 AM
Quote from: jeancalvinus on August 04, 2009, 11:44:30 PM
Also, some squadrons are stuck with NO ES mission. There are a few states which by law do not allow CAP to get called into a situation until a specified time period has elapsed (48 hrs in some cases). So the end result is, the squadron never gets a call, and therefore never trains the ES mission. Sad but true.

Cite please.

I think it might be safer to say that some states do not have CAP as "first response" types.

I would too, and in my personal experience, most of the time its a problem with either a gross misunderstanding by all parties involved or lack of proper contacts by CAP people.  That or the ever-popular "oversold and underperformed".

With things the way they are budget-wise, any state or agency that would off-handedly dismiss free, semi-professionalized, and self-insured extra hands is being unwise at best.

Regardless, though, the discipline, attention to detail, and general life skills that ES affords should be primary to any actual operational ability.  The fact that CAP is an operational asset in the grand scheme is a huge plus, but its also unique in the cadet universe, and should not be the defining reason to involve cadets in this type of training.

ES should be incorporated as a matter of course in the monthly and annual planning and schedules.  If it isn't viewed as optional, it won't be.

For every church, airport, YMCA, and VFW we meet in, there is a local "right here" opportunity to help someone in an ES role, whether it is preparation for, or support after, things that are wet, blowy, cold, or hot.

But I'd still like Jean to cite a state with a 48-hour prohibition for CAP involvement.


"That Others May Zoom"

flyguy06

See how my thread talking how CAP is too ES focus just shifted to a thread about ES? ???

notaNCO forever

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 05, 2009, 06:35:21 AM
See how my thread talking how CAP is too ES focus just shifted to a thread about ES? ???
Just be happy it didn't turn into a discussion about uniforms.

wuzafuzz

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 05, 2009, 06:35:21 AM
See how my thread talking how CAP is too ES focus just shifted to a thread about ES? ???

Huh????

You started a thread about ES and people are discussing why some aquadrons or even wings seem more ES than others. 

Depending where you "grow up" in CAP your perception may be dramatically different.  My CAP experience, even in the 80's was almost all ES.  After a 20 year absence it looked pretty much the same when I returned.
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

Mustang

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 03, 2009, 02:54:13 PMI am not suggesting that one mission be more than another one. they all need to be worked the same. What I am saying is the emphasis to me (based on other seniors I meet and based on the content of this very website) is a strong ES DHS CD focus.

Keep in mind that this ES/HLS/CD focus is the reason CAP was formed in the first place; the Cadet Program came along a few years later.

Mind if I ask which wing you're in now, and which wing you belonged to as a cadet?  The reason I ask is that in one wing I'm familiar with, ES receives almost zero emphasis among cadets. Thus, if you spent your cadet in that wing, your version of CAP makes total sense.   In the wing I belonged to as a cadet, ES was part and parcel of what we did. I had both my 101 card and ROP card within a month of joining at age 13.
"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "


ZigZag911

Folks, just to clarify, I'm suggesting GES as requirement for Mitchell Award or Level 1 completion...in other words, bare bones basic familiarization with the ES program...no active participation required.

I really feel that senior members and cadet officers should actually know something about all 3 CAP programs.

I think an MSA qual would be nice, but that's not what I'm pushing.

fireplug

#36
QuoteKeep in mind that this ES/HLS/CD focus is the reason CAP was formed in the first place; the Cadet Program came along a few years later.

Hope some of the historians chime in of this particular issue. I have (had?) the original CAP Cadet Pre-Flight Study Manual, which I believe was published in 1942.

heliodoc

Good point, fireplug.  Was that manual the ever loving manila/light brown cover because my father gave me one from his old daze in CAP

Ya so how about folks??? Apparently AE was BEFORE ES!!!

Another thing...this thread....  it take alot more than what CAP can offer to be an EMA

It is A LOT more than taskings from AFRCC and 1AF  Have you folks not learned that from all your ICS NIMS courses??  Or is that  just Govt fluff??  CAP has not become an EMA, they merely support missions and taskings based on requests from 1AF, AFRCC, LE, and wait one.....  Emergency Management agencies.

CAP will need to come FULL term with itself.  CAP does not have a "professional" emergency management curriculum to support being an EMA.... again we support them.  We have a curriculum for search and rescue....errrr recovery.  We do not have a full curriculum in Emergency Management as many may think here.


So saying CAP becoming and EMA......FAAARR from it.  This stuff requires a degree in Public Administration and with all the newer curriculums (sp) out there....IT IS  ALOT more than Online testing that seems to be the norm in CAP.  Many members in CAP hold these degrees and have been working it. But the general membership is supporting EM missions....we are not the emergency management agency.   We barely make the definition of first response professionals.  We are professionals, but we are NOT EMA professionals.  Its alot more than damage assessment and handing out MRE's >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D

flyguy06

I wasnt sugesting thatCAP had become an EMA. I was merely posing a question kinda being sarcastic. I dont want it to become an EMA because if it did you would loose me as a member and others. Thats not why I joined CAP.

As for theother coments. I dont think the DHS existed in WWII. So I dont know if was originally founded for HLS, CD or ES. Tise agencies didnt exist back then. It was founded to support the war effort from what I have read. It was formed to support the Army Air Corps. Today we support cvilina alphabet agencies more than our military parent.

That is my concern. We are distancing ourselves away from the USAF and becomming closer to civilian agencies like FEMA and DHS.

Our role when founded was to support the air corps. Today our role is to support the AIr Force.

I guess the point of my post was more of a rant. I wish CAP emphasized things other than Mission this and mission that. I want to see more cadet flight training. More cadets going to academies. More Aerospace ed trips like we used to have. Thats all.

Spike

^ Actually our role before becoming official was not in support of the Army.  Even after founding it was "an Auxiliary of the Army" not the Air Corps.  It was one of many Army Auxiliaries.

During World War 2, we played much the same role as we play now.  Even though DHS did not exist, other agencies existed that CAP was created to support.  Notice the CAP symbols are very similar to Civil Defense.  You could say DHS and other agencies were a child of older agencies like Civil Defense.  Thus CAP has been doing what we always did.

If you don't like the ES part of CAP, that is OK.  No one is forcing you to start a ground team or participate on search missions, disaster relief or humanitarian aid missions.  Do what you want to do, be it Cadet Programs (which looks like what you primarily focus on), or Aerospace Education.

It does not matter what agency or agencies CAP sells its services to, we are always going to be the Air Force Auxiliary, with Air Force traditions, uniforms, and a Cadet Program.  Some parts of CAP HAVE TO CAHNGE, and MUST CHANGE because of our current situation in history.  We will evolve like every other organization in the US depending on the "climate" of things. 

I hope you don't leave just because we "look like a EMA".  We need members like you to help our future citizens be the best they can be.  That is why I joined, and am sure many others joined.  I also love to fly, and jump on any opportunity to take Cadets for their first ride in a plane.

I, like you have seen the change in the culture within CAP.  I know though that things will remain the same.  We will have Cadets, we will provide ES services and we will be a big part on educating people about Aerospace and future Aerospace (SPACE) subjects. 

Honestly I would love to see the Aerospace mission increase.  We need smart, educated and future forward thinking Americans.  That can only start with educating the youth of today (Wow......that is a catchy sentence I wrote...right?!?!).