age and rank

[flyguy06]

FYI, CAWG has a member who was a Lt Col at 31. He seems well qualified to be there.

I didnt say it didnt happen. I know a lotof well qualified 30 something year old CAP Lt. Col's. I just said its hard to get used to seeing it when you are used to something else.

[flyguy06]

I dont have a problem withanyone being Wing CC regardless of their age. It doesnt really affect me. I will never meet the guy. I was just saying its odd to see.

Just like its odd to see a Police Chief in charge of a 75 police officer department wearing four starts.

[davedove]

I mean, isn't like applying for a job?  A job that is, for the most part, being a CEO of a major company or organization?

That's an important point.  Wing Commander is the first level of being a corporate officer.  When you are a Wing Commander, all those agreements have got your signature on them.  It's not like being a lower level commander, where you pass everything up to wing.  You will be legally binding the corporation.  That takes a certain level of maturity, but not necessarily age.

[flyguy06]

age+experience=maturity a lot of times

[capchiro]

I think age and maturity go together just because age has to equal some kind of experience.  This isn't a slam, just an observation.  The other thing that is highly improtant to look for in a CAP leader is some type of leadership skills in working with VOLUNTEERS.  Some of our younger leaders want to try to give orders and have people jump and it just doesn't happen in a volunteer organization.  A leader has to have the ability to involve people in the overall idea and have them buy into it and believe in it.  Then when you ask them to do something, they will.  This is the biggest difference in us and the military and it is a huge difference.  This is also why some of our prior service are not our best leaders.  They are used to giving orders and having them done.  In CAP, you must convince someone to do something before it will get done.  I am not saying it is right, it just is..

[A.Member]

Generally speaking, age should be irrevelvant.  

As was stated numerous times earlier, so long as a person is truly qualified and motivated.  Go for it.  

IMHO, some younger blood is good.  There is far too much old, dead wood at the top.  In addition, however, it should be a prerequisite for command positions at Wing level and above to hold a pilot certificate, with very few exceptions.  I've simply observed too many issues related to procedures and operations from non-pilots.

[capchiro]

Ah yes, the old "only pilots in command position" story.  I think the Air Force used to be that way, but they outgrew it as they got older and more mature..

[isuhawkeye]

this is very interesting ans begs the question.

are we selecting our wing commanders properly?

we seem to put a lot of weight behind years of service and not focus, direction, or the in intangables that have been talked about here.  What should our orgonisation do to ensure that these skills are utelised?

I'm typing this on my phone.  sorry for the errors

[flyguy06]

Ah yes, the old "only pilots in command position" story.  I think the Air Force used to be that way, but they outgrew it as they got older and more mature..

I wonder about that . I have seen very few nonrated senior officers inthe USAF.

back on topic though

[Stonewall]

I'm typing this on my phone.  sorry for the errors

LOL    I was about to suggest that a wing commander should have strong communications skills.  Not talking on a radio or programming a ham, but writing and speaking skills, not to mention grammar.  But you're on your phone, so I'll let it slide this time. 

[Stonewall]

are we selecting our wing commanders properly?

I don't even know what the process for hiring a new wing commander is.  In the  past, I've seen an email go out asking for applications/resumes.  Not sure if that's the official way or not.

we seem to put a lot of weight behind years of service and not focus, direction, or the in intangables that have been talked about here. 

I think we've actually argued the opposite.  Yes, "years of service" is a factor, but not the most important, or even second most important.  Simply, "years of service" demonstrates that the person should have a grasp on the program as a whole, but as we've all seen, a 40 year CAP member can be just as damaging as it can be an asset.  Focus, direction or the intangibles are all part of the package that should also be a part of the best candidate for Wing Commander.  But many of those things are just words, like what politicians say when running for President.  You can have great focus and direction, but that stuff will only come to light after you've become Wing Commander and proved what you said can actually happen. 

What should our orgonisation do to ensure that these skills are utelised?

Accountability.

[mikeylikey]

And after some thought, I think that's a problem with the Military right now having a peacetime mentality about officer promotions during wartime.

Thats just not true.  Wartime and Peacetime have the same promotion rates today.  40 years ago, perhaps it was different, but today when your Battalion Commander or Squadron Commander gets killed on the battlefield, the next person in line may take over, but they are not promoted to the next grade.

Having young Leadership in CAP is NOT (I say again, NOT) a BAD THING!!  The membership is growing older (SM's).  I hope this brings in a new generation of CAP Officers.

[flyguy06]

And after some thought, I think that's a problem with the Military right now having a peacetime mentality about officer promotions during wartime.

Thats just not true.  Wartime and Peacetime have the same promotion rates today.  40 years ago, perhaps it was different, but today when your Battalion Commander or Squadron Commander gets killed on the battlefield, the next person in line may take over, but they are not promoted to the next grade.

Having young Leadership in CAP is NOT (I say again, NOT) a BAD THING!!  The membership is growing older (SM's).  I hope this brings in a new generation of CAP Officers.

So do I.

[Stonewall]

Wonder what the average age of seniors in each rank group.  As in, what's the average age of CAP Lt Cols and so on.  Anyone have a method of finding out.

[JCW0312]

I think age and maturity go together just because age has to equal some kind of experience. 

There's always exceptions to the rules. We all know a few middle-aged plus folks who aren't exactly mature. The opposite is true when you consider that there are a few younger folks that are exceptionally mature even though in their twenties/thirties. Again, it's going to be a case-by-case basis, but I see no need to put a required number on it. We'd never say that you can't hold a staff position if you're over 65 y/o because so many people go senile...  

[RiverAux]

Keep in mind that there are probably never very many applicants to be Wing Commander in the first place so a big part of who gets the job is who wants the job. 

[DNall]

This is a fun little disucssion for me. I'm a Major, just turned 32 yesterday, joined CAP as an 18yo SM 14 years ago Feb.

I have thousands upon thousands of hours of real world ES experience. Some dirty finds & a save in there. Lots of multi-agency big time stuff. I'm in a large active Wg & I have more experience than probably 90%+ of people here. Been to all the schools, done all the highspeed stuff. Now, if I want to be an IC, on comes the cold shoulder, but here I'll get a mission call to work for a guy that's been in CAP a couple years & doesn't know the job? What the hell?

I'm primarily a Cadet Pgms officer. I've been involved in helping to create, either directly or from behind the curtain thru cadets, some pretty big stuff in this wing. Yet people have come along since then & now think they are the demi-god in charge & I'm not worthy of having touched anything on the alter at which they worship? What the hell?

You wanna talk about life experience? Tell me about the 40yo, couple years in CAP, no mil experience, sat in a cubical all their lives, never accomplished anything. now here's me. I got my 14 years highspeed CAP experience, in the national guard about to commission. I made a million bucks in the private sector working my butt off. I've been Sr VP of operations for a multi-million dollar interstate company. I've served on the board of a major national non-profit (operations again). I'm a fairly dynamic guy that refuses to fail. So how do you measure the quality of my life experience against joe blow over there? Is he really going to be a better officer, make better decisions, have a better chance of success? If we were going across the pond to take some fire, who would you really rather have up front? But you know what, I'm gonna get screwed every time in CAP.

Being under 40 in this org is kinda like being black in the middle of segregation. Some people are smart & big enough not to let it matter, but some people are absolute idiots that can't see past their own prejudices. That's my take on the matter, and I give it with the utmost respect.

Far as Wg CC, run like hell from the BS job.

[Dragoon]

I think what I'm looking for in a Wing CC is a track record of CAP success.  I don't really care how many years you have in.  What I do care about is that:

1.  You've been a successful squadron commander who can point to a list of above-average accomplishments in that job.

2.  You've done the same thing at Group (if your wing has groups)

3.  You've done the same thing in at least one primary Wing Staff job.

4.  You have made some contributions to the Wing at least the areas of Cadet Programs and Emergency Services

5.  You're rated aircrew (pilot or observer)

6.  And it would be nice if you've served as a Vice or Chief of Staff. (so you've got the big picture view)


If you've got those blocks checked, regardless of age, you've got my vote.  If not, regardless of age, I think you might want to map out a path that includes these things.  And yeah, it may take a few years, and yeah, that means you won't be as young.  But you'll be MUCH better qualified.

(In the absence of a guy with all of the above, I'd look for the guy with MOST of the above.)

While the intangibles matter, choosing based on the intangibles alone without a CAP track record is like betting on a horse you've never seen run.

Oh yeah, I forgot #7 - enough time and energy to really do the job without destroying your personal or professional life.  I turned down Wing CC for reason #7.  Mebbe someday when the kids are grown...

[Stonewall]

Far as Wg CC, run like hell from the BS job.

I should have just said that from the beginning instead of trying sugar coat it    Truthfully, if I were asked to be Wing CC, in my current or former wing, two totally opposite ends of the spectrum, I'd say "thank you, but hell no".

Excellent post, DNall.  

[John Bryan]

I think we miss the bigger issue. We have wing commander who have only completed level 3 and were Majors at the time of their appointments. I think we need to require level 5 and Lt Col.  Age is overrated....we have some younger officers who are better prepared to be wing commander then some of our grey haired friends.

We have debates on this site about the age of wing commanders, Lt Col's, and even Spaatz Cadets. I think we need to look at what people earn not how old they are. Give people what they earn and don't worry about how many times they have gone around the sun

I know we have talked about military history....so I give you the example of the Medal of Honor. The youngest American to EARN this was Willie Johnston who was just 12 years old when he earned the award. I am glad President Lincoln did not say "Yeah he earned it but he's kind of young".