Fitting CAP Funeral Formalities

[Nomex Maximus]

I never really thought that I'd have to consider anyone in our organization needing to consider such details but this past week's loss got me to think about it. Tell me what you all think.

1) A CAP-style flyover. No fighter jets, but CAP Cessnas - four of them in a sort of a formation. In CAP colors, and preferably with one of them having the wrong decals. Get an exemption to the rules for it. One plane from the wing that lost the members, one plane each from adjacent wings to show solidarity. They will overfly the cemetery one after another - the lead plane will fly directly over the site at slow cruise 10 degrees of flap at 1000 feet, then the next plane will follow 20 seconds behind and offest to the left of the lead. The third plane will follow 20 seconds behind the second and offset to the right and finally the last plane will approach 20 seconds later, centered, and will power up to full throttle over the site and make a sharp turn to the left and begin a climb away from the area.

2) The proper uniform for the funeral should be (nice clean) BDUs, BBDUs and flightsuits (but not utility bags). We were SAR people and we should dress like what we were doing. Dress like we are ready to go out and do it again.

3) Cadet honor guards.

4) CAP chaplain (in BDU) to deliver a fitting talk about the mission and its value to the people who served.

--Nomex

[jimmydeanno]

I don't know if this thread is in jest or not, but I don't think that attending someones funeral in BDUs is at all appropriate.  Why not just wear cut off jeans and a t-shirt.

If I were someones next of kin and all those around me were wearing their "utility" uniforms, I think I would be rather insulted, insulted in the fact that the people who show up are supposed to be paying their last respects.  How respectful is it to wear those uniforms, no matter how "clean and pressed" you make them.

Someones funeral is not the time or the place to wear the BDU, BBDU, or flight suit.  Service dress would be the appropriate uniform, IMO.

When a firefighter loses their life, those who attend do not wear their firesuits with oxygen tank and galoshes...

And don't you think it a little more appropriate to talk about the person, rather than pitch how important CAP Sar is...

[Nomex Maximus]

Thread is not in jest.

This is how I'd want it done for me if it were for me. The readiness to serve again is what validates the uniform.

[ColonelJack]

I never really thought that I'd have to consider anyone in our organization needing to consider such details but this past week's loss got me to think about it. Tell me what you all think.

As an old Chinese friend of mine says, "Be careful what you ask for; you just might get it."

1) A CAP-style flyover. No fighter jets, but CAP Cessnas - four of them in a sort of a formation. In CAP colors, and with one of them having the wrong decals . Get an exemption to the rules for it. One plane from the wing that lost the members, one plane each from adjacent wings to show solidarity. They will overfly the cemetery one after another - the lead plane will fly directly over the site at slow cruise 10 degrees of flap at 1000 feet, then the next plane will follow 20 seconds behind and offest to the left of the lead. The third plane will follow 20 seconds behind the second and offset to the right and finally the last plane will approach 20 seconds later, centered, and will power up to full throttle over the site and make a sharp turn to the left and begin a climb away from the area.

A trifle expensive, wouldn't you say, to change an aircraft's decals just for a funeral?  I like the idea of a flyover -- we're the AF Auxiliary and they do flyovers with jets, so we should do something similar.  The distribution of aircraft within a wing (and region) may make the logistics of the plan somewhat difficult, though.  The idea of four aircraft from different wings may not even be feasible, given the realities of budgets, etc.

2) The proper uniform for the funeral should be BDUs, BBDUs and flightsuits. We were SAR people and we should dress like what we were doing. Dress like we are ready to go out and do it again.

This one made me wonder if you were writing to be humorous or not.  BDUs or BBDUs are never, never, never acceptable for a funeral!  It is a solemn and (normally) very formal occasion.  Yes, we are SAR people.  But we are ALSO cadet program people and aerospace education people -- and they don't always wear field uniforms.  I would only agree with this part if the AF (and the rest of the military) does funerals the same way.  I've been to more than a dozen military-style funerals in my life and I've never seen the services represented in anything but service dress (Class A's, if you will).  We shouldn't do anything different.

3) Cadet honor guards.

I like the idea, but a funeral is an extremely emotional time for the family, so make sure the cadets have received adequate training in the details of a military-style funeral.  It has to be done right the first time; when you are dealing with a funeral and the family of the deceased, there are no do-overs.

4) CAP chaplain (in BDU) to deliver a fitting talk about the mission and its value.

Good idea except for one thing -- NEVER wear anything but service dress to a funeral.  BDUs or BBDUs or flight suits are work uniforms.  Would you wear work clothes to a funeral?  I hope not -- I certainly wouldn't.  I'd wear a suit and tie.  So should the chaplain -- the suit and tie in AF blue, whether it has three or six buttons on the front.

At first I thought this was something meant to be funny -- and if it was, it was pretty good, and you may have a future in comedy writing.    But then I realized you were serious, so I responded in a serious vein.

We should have a CAP funeral protocol; that I agree with.  And I like a lot of what you propose, though logistically it may not be possible.  The idea of wearing BDUs or BBDUs, however, is D.O.A. -- at least with me.

Jack

[mikeylikey]

Sorry......my vote is no.  I have to agree wearing BDU's or anything other than a suit and pants is HUGELY inappropriate.  That is not OUR culture.  The American way is a suit, sports jacket, blazer and appropriate pants.

[mikeylikey]

Doesn't the AF have a reg or manual how to do funerals.  I doubt it allows BDU's flight suits. 

If we go on the original posters reasoning, I should wear a flightsuit to the upcoming wedding of a CAP Pilot........... right???

[Pylon]

This is how I'd want it done for me if it were for me.

And you can always state your personal wishes in your funeral plans, of course.  However...

The readiness to serve again is what validates the uniform.

The USAF is much more "ready to fight" and constantly doing it.  They also regularly wear their flight suits and BDUs when performing their jobs... much more than most CAP members ever will.    However, they don't dress in field uniforms at military funerals; service dress is the standard and for good reason.

As I said above, if the individual has other preferences, they can make those known, but otherwise stick with the standard (which is a standard for good reason) and wear service dress.

Of course, that hinges on whether the individual and/or his family even wants CAP presence at their funeral.  There are plenty of individuals who don't consider CAP to be the defining hallmark of their life and would prefer to have a regular funeral just like everyone else.

[Nomex Maximus]

Colonel Jack -

I respect your opinions.

The comment about the decals was a small jest.

I do think BDUs are what *I* would want people to wear to MY funeral. BTW, I sincerely hope that I will never need a CAP funeral.

If cadets are too young to deal with a funeral honor guard, then so be it. I however think that the right cadets would learn much from such an experience.

We are not the "real military" and should have some latitude for establishing out own culture. Just my opinion.

Mikey -

This is completely different from a wedding.

As a former police officer I can tell you that the appropriate uniform for most police funerals would be the regular patrol uniform.

Pylon -

My suggestions assume that the family(s) wanted a CAP presence and understand the intent of the honors offered.

The point of all this is to honor the fallen.

--Nomex

[DogCollar]

Doesn't the AF have a reg or manual how to do funerals.  I doubt it allows BDU's flight suits. 

If we go on the original posters reasoning, I should wear a flightsuit to the upcoming wedding of a CAP Pilot........... right???

There are regulations for a military style funeral in Chaplaincy Service Manuel 221.

[Nomex Maximus]

There are regulations for a military style funeral in Chaplaincy Service Manuel 221.

Change the regulations to better suit the needs of the circumstances.

We are civilians living in a democracy.

--Nomex

[RogueLeader]

I understand why you'd want the CAP members to be in utilities, and if it were your funeral- and you requested it that way, fine.  I do believe that it is WAY more respectful to show up in full Service Dress- or as much as you can.  To me, the full Service Dress- including Service Coat and Service Cap is a visible expression of what they meant to you.  I wear BDU's most often, so it doesn't mean much to me.  The Full Service Dress, I wear that very rarely, because there is not much that needs that level.
As just having a relative die last week, I would be VERY upset if someone from an organization that he was involved in, came in jeans/T-shirt.

Just as an aside, just because that the idea is how you would like it to be, doesn't mean most want it to be.

The Fly Over is a good idea though, just forget the decal thing though.

[ColonelJack]

Colonel Jack -

I respect your opinions.

You honor me, sir.  Thank you.

The comment about the decals was a small jest.

I thought so.  Pretty good one, too.

I do think BDUs are what *I* would want people to wear to MY funeral. BTW, I sincerely hope that I will never need a CAP funeral.

I hope you'll never need one as well; the few CAP funerals I've attended have been for members who passed away of natural causes or illness, not line-of-duty deaths.  And the CAP presence was in service dress or civilian suits.  I would suggest that you have your own plans drawn up requesting members in BDUs or BBDUs should such be necessary; I seriously doubt that the prevailing culture of our organization would go in that direction as the norm, however.

If cadets are too young to deal with a funeral honor guard, then so be it. I however think that the right cadets would learn much from such an experience.

I agree.  But as I said before, there are no do-overs.  It would have to be right the first time; thus the need for training in both the protocols and the sensitivity issues involved.

We are not the "real military" and should have some latitude for establishing out own culture. Just my opinion.

Again, I agree -- in fact, I've said we're not the RealMilitary™ for a long time.  But our own culture should be a reflection of society at large and the segment of the military we identify with, and they don't allow BDUs, flightsuits, or any other work utility uniform as the UoD for a funeral.  As before, if you want it at your final services, that's great, and if I am in the area should it be necessary (and I pray it never is), I'll follow your wishes.  My funeral will be a military-CAP event, as is my right both as a veteran and a retired CAP member.  I expect service dress at mine.  (That's what I'll be wearing.)

Jack

[Nomex Maximus]

Colonel Jack -

My suggestions here are meant for the funeral of CAP members who died in the line of duty, not for the (thankfully) more common reasons of natural causes. The suggestions assume a person whose part-time passion was serving his or her country in CAP.

Proposed guidance to wear the BDU does not equal a suggestion for others to dress in jeans, etc. and furthermore, the guidance would be a *suggested* uniform, not a required uniform. If the fellow members are more comfortable in dress uniform or civilian clothing so be it. The point is to honor the fallen for what they were doing when they fell.

And, ultimately the whole point of a funeral is to help the survivors cope with the loss of their loved one. My hope here is to find a way that helps validate to them what their lost one was doing.

--Nomex

[Skyray]

There is a traditional flyover for funerals and memorial services.  It is called the "Missing Man" formation, and I have seen it way too many times.  Execution varies, but basically it is a standard four man with the section on the right and the leader's wingman on the left.  As the formation passes over the funeral scene, preferably on an easterly heading, the section wingman peals off and "Flies West."  Very symbolic, and very emotional, I got a little choked up just remembering the times I have seen it executed.  There is a regulatory problem with the formation; in the Coast Guard Auxiliary it requires a waiver from either the Director of Auxiliary or the District Commandant.  I don't know if a waiver is even possible for the CAP.

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, I did NOT look this up, so don't crucify me if I am wrong, but...

If I recall 60-1 accurately, CAP formation flights require approval from National and (by FAA regs) concurrence of all PIC's in the formation.  I think 60-1 also requires appropriate training in formation flight before the flight can be approved.

I have always thought that a flyover, if not by a formation and a traditional "Missing Man" maneuver, then a flyover by a single aircraft, would be appropriate for a CAP officer's funeral.

[Stonewall]

I have not personally seen a CAP flyover, but I have seen, with my own eyes, a large framed photograph (not a painting) of 4 CAP aircraft doing a formation flyover.  A friend of mine was involved with it in IN wing some time ago.  Maybe late 80s or early 90s.

Being a member of the Old Guard (Army's Honor Guard) for a couple years, I attended (marched) in a few funerals, some for "in the line of duty".  Never saw anyone show up in anything other than their services version of the "CLASS A" uniform.

At my funeral, I would expect people to dress appropriately.  However, at my "death party", clothes need not be required.  In my official "Record of Emergency Data" for the Air Force I have in the remarks section at the end...

In addition to my family, please notify SrA Tom Culpepper, a PJ at Nellis AFB and 1LT Colin Greata in the 82nd Airborne Division out of Ft. Bragg.  I'm asking permission that they be granted leave regardless of their deployment status. 

I Hereby order a party be thrown in the event of my death.  Friends, drinking buddies, coworkers, former girlfriends, members of the unit, fellow soldiers and neighbors should all attend.  Sell all my gear, weapons, and surfboards to fund this event.  Yes, I'm serious.


I certify that the information that I have provided is true and correct to the best of my knowledge. I also understand providing false information may be used for administrative, criminal, or other adverse actions.

[Grumpy]

"I agree.  But as I said before, there are no do-overs.  It would have to be right the first time; thus the need for training in both the protocols and the sensitivity issues involved."

Colonel Jack, I agree with what you say.  In my squadron we have been very lucky.  Our cadet color guard has been to the National Competition 5 times (took first twice and third once).  The Army Reserve unit we meet at has used them to post their colors at a change of command ceremony.  At the request of the father of a soldier killed in Iraq, they were used to fold the flag.
The one star at the ceremony approached them after the service and said that, at first, he was concerned about using them but after seeing their professionalism, he was proud to have them and he gave them all a challenge coin.

So, yes, with the right cadets it can be done.

[LtCol White]

I never really thought that I'd have to consider anyone in our organization needing to consider such details but this past week's loss got me to think about it. Tell me what you all think.

1) A CAP-style flyover. No fighter jets, but CAP Cessnas - four of them in a sort of a formation. In CAP colors, and preferably with one of them having the wrong decals. Get an exemption to the rules for it. One plane from the wing that lost the members, one plane each from adjacent wings to show solidarity. They will overfly the cemetery one after another - the lead plane will fly directly over the site at slow cruise 10 degrees of flap at 1000 feet, then the next plane will follow 20 seconds behind and offest to the left of the lead. The third plane will follow 20 seconds behind the second and offset to the right and finally the last plane will approach 20 seconds later, centered, and will power up to full throttle over the site and make a sharp turn to the left and begin a climb away from the area.

2) The proper uniform for the funeral should be (nice clean) BDUs, BBDUs and flightsuits (but not utility bags). We were SAR people and we should dress like what we were doing. Dress like we are ready to go out and do it again.

3) Cadet honor guards.

4) CAP chaplain (in BDU) to deliver a fitting talk about the mission and its value to the people who served.

--Nomex

BDU's/Utility uniforms/Flight suits are NOT appropriate for a funeral ever. ONLY Service uniform/corporate or civilian attire.

[Skyray]

OK, I did NOT look this up, so don't crucify me if I am wrong, but...

If I recall 60-1 accurately, CAP formation flights require approval from National and (by FAA regs) concurrence of all PIC's in the formation.  I think 60-1 also requires appropriate training in formation flight before the flight can be approved.

I have always thought that a flyover, if not by a formation and a traditional "Missing Man" maneuver, then a flyover by a single aircraft, would be appropriate for a CAP officer's funeral.

What you have stated is my recollection, John.  There is a logbook endorsement on formation flight also, and there was a raging argument ten or twelve years ago as to whether those of us who were certified for formation flight before the endorsement was required were grandfathered.  Sort of like the complex aircraft endorsement that I don't need because I have five or six thousand complex logged, and only about 75 non-complex.  There are enough former military pilots in CAP that finding the qualified formation pilots should not be a problem.  Getting National to put aside their aversion to risk might be.

[Nomex Maximus]

Flyovers -

Yes, I am well aware of the missing man formation. That would look great with jets, but we don't fly jets. We fly Cessnas and we fly searches so I think CAP should get things done their way.

Cadets -

Even fulltime military honor guards are going to drop a rifle from time to time. I have enough confidence in the cadets that the right group can pull this off. After all, all we are asking of them is to walk preceeding the casket, turn one way or the other and then stand off to the side. At the end, walk out of the location in front of the casket. Their senior officers can make sure they know what to do and that their uniforms are correct. And their leadership is in position to judge whether they are up to it in the first place.

Don't waste an opportunity like this for cadets. I am not in the cadet program but I think that one of the most valuable things a cadet could learn from CAP is the value and cost of sacrifice in the line of duty. Thankfully in CAP there will be very few opportunities for that but when it happens let them learn from it up close and personal.

--Nomex

[afgeo4]

A couple of points...

Funeral detail is part of the CAP Honor Guard program and the Honor Guard Academy spends a lot of time on that, so yes, some cadets do know how to do it properly. In fact, in many communities we may be the only Honor Guard to provide military veterans' funerals.

I believe the CAP-USAF Liaison Officer may be contacted to arrange for a local AF Base Honor Guard to perform a funeral detail for a CAP member who has died on duty.

In NYC and its surrounding area (Long Island, Upstate NY, NJ, CT), police funerals are attended with officers wearing dress uniforms, not patrol uniforms, whenever possible. Same goes for FDNY. If you're an ESU officer, the family doesn't want to see M-4s carried by people in full battle rattle with tactical vehicles. They want honorable and respectable dress. You have your will and testament to tell people what you want at your funeral.

Fly-over... I think it's a great idea if one aircraft does it. We barely have money for training flights, right along 4 aircraft. You said 3 aircraft from surrounding states? What does Alaska and Hawaii do?

[Nomex Maximus]

BDU's/Utility uniforms/Flight suits are NOT appropriate for a funeral ever. ONLY Service uniform/corporate or civilian attire.

If that's your opinion then fine. But I tend to think that the military has a different view of what the BDU looks like than the civilian population think it looks like. If I were at a military function (and CAP is not the real military) I would want the soldiers present to look like they were ready to do a job. But that's just me. I think I have explained my reasoning for this enough.

--Nomex

[Nomex Maximus]

A couple of points...

. . .

Fly-over... I think it's a great idea if one aircraft does it. We barely have money for training flights, right along 4 aircraft. You said 3 aircraft from surrounding states? What does Alaska and Hawaii do?

I suppose then that it would be completely out of the question to suggest that CAP pay for the funeralsof those who fall in the line of duty...

...really it shouldn't be.

--Nomex

[afgeo4]

I don't think it's out of the question. I think they should pay. I just don't think they should spare no expense since the budget is fairly fixed and comes out of our annual dues. If we spend hundreds of thousands on funerals then we don't spend it on our cadets or modernization of equipment or training sorties... it's got to come from somewhere.

Should they pay for funerals? I think yes. Should they go all out for them? I think no.

[Nomex Maximus]

I don't think it's out of the question. I think they should pay. I just don't think they should spare no expense since the budget is fairly fixed and comes out of our annual dues. If we spend hundreds of thousands on funerals then we don't spend it on our cadets or modernization of equipment or training sorties... it's got to come from somewhere.

Should they pay for funerals? I think yes. Should they go all out for them? I think no.

I don't think we are talking about going all out. Having the planes come from other wings is a nice to have not a necessity. And no one really said anything about it being an AF funded mission. Myself I'd be happy to fork over the two hours of flying time to help out. That's what CAP is all about. And in any event, we aren't talking about dozens and hundreds of funerals here.

In terms of the Federal Government's budget this is really all a very small thing. Get your local congressman to earmark some funding.

--Nomex

[Flying Pig]

 Your misrepresenting by saying that you wore your police patrol uniform to compare them with BDU's.  Because in LE the patrol unifrom is usually the ONLY uniform we have.  I certainly hope you didnt show up in a short sleeve shirt and open collar? Ive been to 10+ police funerals and have ALWAYS worn Class A's.  (Long sleeve shirt with tie and smokey.)  One was a SWAT member and his team mates didnt wear their SWAT Gear.  One was a Sheriff Pilot who was killed, nobody wore their fight suits.  Ive also been to several military funerals and EVERYONE was in Dress Blues.  The funeral is for the family, not the deceased.  

We have done funerals with our LE helicopters and fixed wing and the missing man formation looks just fine.  As far as changing all of the tail numbers, and bringing in aircraft from other wings.....Nobody is going to even notice nor are they going to care.

[Skyray]

Yes, I am well aware of the missing man formation. That would look great with jets, but we don't fly jets. We fly Cessnas and we fly searches so I think CAP should get things done their way.

I have seen it done four or five times with Cessnas, and it still looks pretty awesome.  The last time was when the Auxiliary put a Piper in Florida Bay due to spatial disorientation in a low time instrument pilot with the result of two deceased in February 2001.

[Grumpy]

Your misrepresenting by saying that you wore your police patrol uniform to compare them with BDU's.  Because in LE the patrol unifrom is usually the ONLY uniform we have.  I certainly hope you didnt show up in a short sleeve shirt and open collar? Ive been to 10+ police funerals and have ALWAYS worn Class A's.  (Long sleeve shirt with tie and smokey.)  One was a SWAT member and his team mates didnt wear their SWAT Gear.  One was a Sheriff Pilot who was killed, nobody wore their fight suits.  Ive also been to several military funerals and EVERYONE was in Dress Blues.  The funeral is for the family, not the deceased.  

We have done funerals with our LE helicopters and fixed wing and the missing man formation looks just fine.  As far as changing all of the tail numbers, and bringing in aircraft from other wings.....Nobody is going to even notice nor are they going to care.

Good obs

[Nomex Maximus]

Your misrepresenting by saying that you wore your police patrol uniform to compare them with BDU's.  Because in LE the patrol unifrom is usually the ONLY uniform we have.  I certainly hope you didnt show up in a short sleeve shirt and open collar? Ive been to 10+ police funerals and have ALWAYS worn Class A's.  (Long sleeve shirt with tie and smokey.)  One was a SWAT member and his team mates didnt wear their SWAT Gear.  One was a Sheriff Pilot who was killed, nobody wore their fight suits.  Ive also been to several military funerals and EVERYONE was in Dress Blues.  The funeral is for the family, not the deceased.  

We have done funerals with our LE helicopters and fixed wing and the missing man formation looks just fine.  As far as changing all of the tail numbers, and bringing in aircraft from other wings.....Nobody is going to even notice nor are they going to care.

I don't remember what I wore back then but it would have been either a long sleeve patrol uniform or a short sleeve uniform. Probably short sleeve, as it was summer when the accident occurred. Certainly the same style as what I was wearing when I investigated the man's fatal traffic accident. I don't remember anyone else (police officers) wearing anything out of the ordinary - and there were hundreds of us there. This was in the Chicago area during the 80's.

I am sure what I have suggested has never been done before. So arguing that because it hasn't been done before doesn't really seem to me to be valid. If in fact some people don't think it's a good idea, well, that's why we have these forums  - to discuss and share ideas.  

[Flying Pig]

You guys must do it different in at CPD.  You'd be looked on as a slug if you showed up in anything but your Depts version of full Class A's here in Ca, regardless of the weather.

[SeattleSarge]

Having attended two law enforcement funerals, I would suggest that style as a good example.

Members who are Veterans should certainly have the military honors included as well (flag and presentation).

The formation flying over the gravesite makes me concerned...  Wouldn't want to have a mid-air at all, but especially in the middle of a funeral ceremony.

My two cents...

-SeattleSarge

[Skyray]

The formation flying over the gravesite makes me concerned...  Wouldn't want to have a mid-air at all, but especially in the middle of a funeral ceremony.

Which is the reason that it requires qualification, briefing, and National approval.  The formation flying is relatively fundamental.  Simple four plane with a transition to three plane.  The area of major concern is the rendevous, and that should take place well away from the funeral.  Then all you need is a leader that appreciates the gravity of what is taking place, and non-hotshot wingman who are content to fly wing at a prudent distance.

[LtCol White]

BDU's/Utility uniforms/Flight suits are NOT appropriate for a funeral ever. ONLY Service uniform/corporate or civilian attire.

If that's your opinion then fine. But I tend to think that the military has a different view of what the BDU looks like than the civilian population think it looks like. If I were at a military function (and CAP is not the real military) I would want the soldiers present to look like they were ready to do a job. But that's just me. I think I have explained my reasoning for this enough.

--Nomex

Yes, it is my opinion and the military does not have a different view at all. As a Marine protocol officer I can tell you Officially that anything other than service uniform or appropriate civilian attire is not appropriate.

[afgeo4]

As far as CAP paying for these missions, I never mentioned this to be a USAF mission. I said CAP. That's not USAF. CAP has a very limited budget. I actually think it'd be easier to convince USAF to fund this than to convince NHQ to fund it.

As fas as LE uniforms go... you guys forget that the standard operating uniform of a police officer IS the dress uniform. Police departments have tactical uniforms, usually worn by special units. Officers wear a dress uniform to present a less combatant appearance to the community and to convey respect toward the community they serve. I've attended many police and fdny funerals in the last few years (unfortunately), including a funeral for a falled FDNY firefighter just this morning. Everyone always wears combinations with service coats except for probies, who don't have one issued yet. They wore their dressiest one, the short sleeve, open collar. Army and USMC uniforms for funerals/burials are usually dress blues, which is their dressiest uniform. Navy/USGC wear summer/winter black and USAF wear service dress.

As far as fly-by's... formation flying isn't allowed in CAP because of insurance and safety issues. Remember, CAP pilots usually aren't military trained. The military trains you to fly in formations in Undergraduate Pilot Training (or equivalent). CAP doesn't train you at all. If you do a single aircraft flight, perhaps rock the wings, it's still something for the family and requires no further apporvals. Also, it costs very little, so the members of the squadron could chip in to pay for it (a nice gesture to the family).

[pixelwonk]

I'm not one to knock a guy for his last wishes.  If he wants bags and BDUs cuz that's how he rolled, well um... ok.  I'd sure give a lot of thought to whether my friends in CAP were unintentionally insulting my grieving family if it were my funeral, however.

I had the unfortunate opportunity to attend the memorial service of a friend and squadron member this past Saturday.  This individual had passed quite unexpectedly and we were all very shocked and saddened by his death. 

Although it wasn't a line of duty death, the family wished for a strong CAP presence, to the point of requesting that the service be held in the large squadron meeting facility.  (This is a new building, not some old ate up hangar) Because the body was previously cremated, there was no casket. Instead, a table was placed at front with pictures and three half-manikins dressed in the favorite uniforms of the deceased; his flight jacket, to denote his love of flying on missions; his service dress coat; and his mess dress jacket.  I found this to be a nice touch, and gave a feeling of familiarity despite his body not being there.

Because of his involvement with two area units, a fellow from the other squadron put a slideshow to music and it was played on the overhead LCD projector prior to the service.  The family had their own that they made and it was played during the service itself.  Various family and CAP members gave eulogies about how the deceased had touched their lives.  Lastly, the squadron commander presented the unit flag to the mother of the departed in an extremely moving gesture, after it was flown at half staff and then folded by the color guard.

Afterwards, a wake meal was served in the hangar for all the guests by the parents of cadets at the unit.  During this time, a solitary CAP plane flew low overhead, rocking it's wings as it passed directly in front of the family gathered outside.  They were very honored to have this done for them.

Overall, this was the first and hopefully only CAP funeral I've been to, and although things might have been done differently for others, nothing... nothing could have been done better.

[LtCol White]

I'm not one to knock a guy for his last wishes.  If he wants bags and BDUs cuz that's how he rolled, well um... ok.  I'd sure give a lot of thought to whether my friends in CAP were unintentionally insulting my grieving family if it were my funeral, however.

I had the unfortunate opportunity to attend the memorial service of a friend and squadron member this past Saturday.  This individual had passed quite unexpectedly and we were all very shocked and saddened by his death. 

Although it wasn't a line of duty death, the family wished for a strong CAP presence, to the point of requesting that the service be held in the large squadron meeting facility.  (This is a new building, not some old ate up hangar) Because the body was previously cremated, there was no casket. Instead, a table was placed at front with pictures and three half-manikins dressed in the favorite uniforms of the deceased; his flight jacket, to denote his love of flying on missions; his service dress coat; and his mess dress jacket.  I found this to be a nice touch, and gave a feeling of familiarity despite his body not being there.

Because of his involvement with two area units, a fellow from the other squadron put a slideshow to music and it was played on the overhead LCD projector prior to the service.  The family had their own that they made and it was played during the service itself.  Various family and CAP members gave eulogies about how the deceased had touched their lives.  Lastly, the squadron commander presented the unit flag to the mother of the departed in an extremely moving gesture, after it was flown at half staff and then folded by the color guard.

Afterwards, a wake meal was served in the hangar for all the guests by the parents of cadets at the unit.  During this time, a solitary CAP plane flew low overhead, rocking it's wings as it passed directly in front of the family gathered outside.  They were very honored to have this done for them.

Overall, this was the first and hopefully only CAP funeral I've been to, and although things might have been done differently for others, nothing... nothing could have been done better.

Its a whole different story if the deceased or the family requests BDU's or Flight suits because of the person's fondness of it. To just show up wearing it as your uniform under normal circumstances is what is inappropriate

[pixelwonk]

Read again, please. Where did I state that we wore work uniforms?
To be Cascade-clear, those CAP members attending the funeral wore service dress or business suits.

[afgeo4]

Let's not knock on Nomex... let's just thank god that most of his friends aren't Services Airmen or they'd all be at his funeral wearing chef's whites while wielding knives and forks. You know... THEIR working uniforms.

[ZigZag911]

In addition to the information offered in the Chaplain Service & Honor Guard regulations, CAPP 3, Chapter 8, discusses "Participation in Funerals for Deceased CAP Members".

The primary emphasis is on respecting the wishes of the next of kin/family. Within the parameters set by the family, CAP seeks to honor its deceased members (whatever the cause) by dignified participation in funeral services -- whether this is limited to simple attendance at a wake and/or funeral service, all the way to providing a CAP chaplain & honor guard.

By the way, as far as I know all CAP honor guards are comprised of cadets -- and the honor guards I've seen have fulfilled their part in funeral services with respectful professionalism.

The mourners are going to be much more focused on the affection and respect shown for their loved one by CAP than on any minor flaw in carrying out the ceremony.

[alice]

Hear, hear ZigZag.  It all comes down to respecting the wishes of the surviving family members, and then secondly, it's very important to try to respect the wishes of the closest surviving CAP colleagues, too.

I've been to two CAP funerals for deaths during AFRCC missions which left all the surviving family and friends very comforted.  Here are some observations:

- When a seach has happened for those killed, those searchers will want to come to any services.  Most county sheriff SAR volunteer units - like the 50 members of the Sheridan County SAR quoted in the latest PR from national - will most likely only have field uniforms.  One funeral I went to had a similar sheriff SAR ground team who came in their field uniforms.  Orange shirts and all.  It was a significant reminder of what SAR is really all about.

-Not all CAP senior members own a USAF dark blue jacket or could even get one on short notice.  Appropriate civilian busines clothes are better than a pale blue USAF shirt.

- Sometimes flyovers are canceled due to weather, but a gun salute and taps can be just as moving.

- Now is the time for those of us not in Wyoming, especially those of us on wing staffs to start asking where to send donations for favored charities and such, and/or flowers for any such service(s) of remembrance.  Banks fo flowers are very nice to have at such services...  It gives one something to look at when you're catatonic and most importantly reminds you many others are thinking about you.  The families and local squadron members  need to know WYWG is not alone.  That said, there is I would suspect by now "every indication" those killed were properly on an Air Force Authorized Mission. Let's face it - one aboard was a CAP IG! - so there will be federal burial benefits, and that includes funds for memorial services if the surviving families want that.

Alice

[Skyray]

Alice Mansell, Maj, CAP

Dern it, Alice, finish Level IV.  You have been a Major as long as I can remember.

[SARMedTech]

Flyovers -

Yes, I am well aware of the missing man formation. That would look great with jets, but we don't fly jets. We fly Cessnas and we fly searches so I think CAP should get things done their way.

Cadets -

Even fulltime military honor guards are going to drop a rifle from time to time. I have enough confidence in the cadets that the right group can pull this off. After all, all we are asking of them is to walk preceeding the casket, turn one way or the other and then stand off to the side. At the end, walk out of the location in front of the casket. Their senior officers can make sure they know what to do and that their uniforms are correct. And their leadership is in position to judge whether they are up to it in the first place.

Don't waste an opportunity like this for cadets. I am not in the cadet program but I think that one of the most valuable things a cadet could learn from CAP is the value and cost of sacrifice in the line of duty. Thankfully in CAP there will be very few opportunities for that but when it happens let them learn from it up close and personal.

--Nomex

One thing (among several) that you are not thinking about is the wishes of the family. My understanding is that we participate if and only if the family asks and protocol dictates that we only go so far as to remind them that a CAP funeral is an option and leave it at that.

I feel the need to say again, BDUs are not for formal events any more than factory coveralls are.

Police funeral honor guards are in dress uniform. My father was a Sheriffs Dept honor guard for 35 years.

If you can find video of a military honor guard dropping a rifle, I would like to see it. Not gonna happen, GI. When President Reagan died, the honor guard practiced with a properly weighted casket in the dark of night on the Capital steps so as not to be seen.

While there are many opportunities for cadets to participate in ceremonies, we demean that last rites of our comrades to look at a funeral as just another chance for them to participate.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Flyovers -

Yes, I am well aware of the missing man formation. That would look great with jets, but we don't fly jets. We fly Cessnas and we fly searches so I think CAP should get things done their way.

Cadets -

Even fulltime military honor guards are going to drop a rifle from time to time. I have enough confidence in the cadets that the right group can pull this off. After all, all we are asking of them is to walk preceeding the casket, turn one way or the other and then stand off to the side. At the end, walk out of the location in front of the casket. Their senior officers can make sure they know what to do and that their uniforms are correct. And their leadership is in position to judge whether they are up to it in the first place.

Don't waste an opportunity like this for cadets. I am not in the cadet program but I think that one of the most valuable things a cadet could learn from CAP is the value and cost of sacrifice in the line of duty. Thankfully in CAP there will be very few opportunities for that but when it happens let them learn from it up close and personal.

--Nomex

Nomex:

Don't tell me you are one of those "Throw tradition out the window" guys.

The "Missing man" formation was around well before Mr. Whittle developed his engine.

IF National would approve it, and IF you can get 4 CAP planes in one place, a missing man maneuver would look good.  I don't think either of those two preconditions are likely to transpire, however.

Maybe... A single plane dropping rose petals?  Even that would need a waiver from NHQ, since CAP (but not the FAA) prohibits dropping objects from aircraft.

[SJFedor]

Eh, you could probably get the planes in one place. It would have to be a corporate mission, probably paid for by each pilot, and if you had an extensive amount of time to get clearance from National, it could happen. Problem is, usually from death to funeral is only a few days, which makes it hard to get the logistics worked out.

As a cadet, I've done 10 or more honor guard details for members. Usually, with a few hours practice, and someone in charge who knows how to make it work, it can look extremely professional. Typically, the details I've done have been w/o rifles (takes more time to teach, more time then we have to make look good), but every time it's been precise, dignified, and the family has thanked us time and time again. Last year, I ran into a guy at the store back in PA, I was the C/NCOIC for his father's funeral (probably 5-6 years prior), and he remembered me, and still thanked me for all that we did to make his father's memorial a very special and dignified one. I've never done one where the Honor Guard was pallbearers, only escorts to the casket, standing guard during visitation, and doing the graveside flag ceremony.

Side note, if you ever have the misfortune of having a cadet die, and the family requests an honor guard, try your best to have the honor guard done by a guard that doesn't know the cadet. The first one I did was for someone I knew pretty well, used to go to school with, and it really sucks to be standing at parade rest next to a casket while your friends walk by and talk about all the good times. It's a tough one.

[Skyray]

I have participated in two scattering of ashes at sea which had line astern flyovers.  If the pilots can maintain spacing approximate a quarter to a half mile in line, this is pretty impressive, having almost the impact of a funeral procession.  On one of them, the procession was so timed that the first aircraft passed as the scattering began, and the last aircraft passed as the last of the ashes went overboard.

[sardak]

I've been to a few CAP funerals in my career. The uniform of choice always seemed to be service dress and those without that uniform wore appropriate civilian dress.  However, if the one being remembered or his/her family requested other uniforms to be worn, those wishes should be honored.

I've been to far more funerals for non-CAP SAR personnel.  In every one of those, the request was to wear "team colors," so there were mixtures of all sorts of colors and uniforms . The requests to wear the SAR uniforms came from the families.  EMS, law and fire personnel in attendance wore a mixture of dress and duty uniforms.

Some SAR members feel uncomfortable wearing bright colors to a funeral or memorial service.  For our team members that don't want to wear "team colors," we have yellow armbands with the team patch.  The traditional black stripe is placed across the patch.

An excellent book (428 pages) on the subject of funerals is "The Last Salute: Civil and Military Funerals, 1921-1969." Published by the Department of the Army in 1991, it covers in great detail funerals for 29 select government and military officials.  Included are staffing details, charts of where personnel stood or were seated, entitlements for funerals from simple (full) honor through state, etc.  The book starts with the State Funeral of the World War I Unknown Soldier and ends with the funeral of President Eisenhower. Funerals discussed include ambassadors, Cabinet officers, generals and admirals, Presidents, and the Unknowns in Arlington.

Lastly, attached are pictures from the services for National Park Service ranger Jeff Christensen, who died from a fall while on patrol in Rocky Mountain National Park.  I think the various uniforms were appropriate.

Mike


National Ski Patrol in red, local SAR teams in orange and yellow, NPS in gray


Persons in berets are members of the national Mountain Rescue Association Honor Guard.  The Honor Guard also has kilts in the MRA tartan.  Those are ice axes instead of rifles.

[Nomex Maximus]

Nomex:

Don't tell me you are one of those "Throw tradition out the window" guys.

The "Missing man" formation was around well before Mr. Whittle developed his engine.

IF National would approve it, and IF you can get 4 CAP planes in one place, a missing man maneuver would look good.  I don't think either of those two preconditions are likely to transpire, however.

Maybe... A single plane dropping rose petals?  Even that would need a waiver from NHQ, since CAP (but not the FAA) prohibits dropping objects from aircraft.

Yes, I am one of those throw the regulations/traditions/whatever out the window type of guys. That's the whole point of this dialog - to consider how we could improve the ceremony and make it more meaningful for those who are grieving.

Again, that it is not standard military protocol is just not an argument here. Obviously it hasn't been done before. There is no rule that says we can only do things the way they have been done before. The point is to honor those fallen. If the suggestion doesn't work for the fallen or the fallen's family then disregard it. If I were to die in a CAP airplane this is the sort of thing I would want for myself. I would want to know that what I had been doing was valid by the way my comrades showed that they were ready to carry on. I would want my family to know that what I was trying to do was valid. It would help them. If it is not what you would want for yourself then nobody is going to try and force it on your family.

Flyovers. Again, at 90 knots at 20 second spacings puts the airplanes 1/2 a mile apart. Hardly formation flying. Should not need an approval.

And, again please, obviously, we don't do any of this unless the family wants it.

-- Nomex

[Nomex Maximus]

Let's not knock on Nomex... let's just thank god that most of his friends aren't Services Airmen or they'd all be at his funeral wearing chef's whites while wielding knives and forks. You know... THEIR working uniforms.

Puh-leeze. Follow the discussion.

--Nomex

[AlphaSigOU]

Let's not knock on Nomex... let's just thank god that most of his friends aren't Services Airmen or they'd all be at his funeral wearing chef's whites while wielding knives and forks. You know... THEIR working uniforms.

'Ey! Watch it! Former hash-slingin' ex-Services airman heeah! DEATH FROM WITHIN! 

[JayT]

A couple of points...

Funeral detail is part of the CAP Honor Guard program and the Honor Guard Academy spends a lot of time on that, so yes, some cadets do know how to do it properly. In fact, in many communities we may be the only Honor Guard to provide military veterans' funerals.

I believe the CAP-USAF Liaison Officer may be contacted to arrange for a local AF Base Honor Guard to perform a funeral detail for a CAP member who has died on duty.

In NYC and its surrounding area (Long Island, Upstate NY, NJ, CT), police funerals are attended with officers wearing dress uniforms, not patrol uniforms, whenever possible. Same goes for FDNY. If you're an ESU officer, the family doesn't want to see M-4s carried by people in full battle rattle with tactical vehicles. They want honorable and respectable dress. You have your will and testament to tell people what you want at your funeral.

Fly-over... I think it's a great idea if one aircraft does it. We barely have money for training flights, right along 4 aircraft. You said 3 aircraft from surrounding states? What does Alaska and Hawaii do?

What place do you live in that CAP is the only Honor Guard around for vets? The only CAP Ceremonial uniform on Long Island is in my closet.

[ELTHunter]

I'm not going to bash Nomex's wishes if that's what he wants, but I can tell you right now, if a bunch of my CAP buddies showed up at my funeral in BDU's or flight suits, I think my Wife would be pretty upset.  We had three members die in a crash during a mountain flying clinic back in 2002 and I've mentioned before that I'd like a CAP presence at my funeral, preferrable by my cadets.  She's OK with that, but I'm sure she would want them looking sharp in Service Dress.

IMHO, blue AF shirt or white Corporate shirt with ties would be fine.

A flyover is a great idea, even if it's just one plane.  A missing man would definitely be appropriate if the member is killed in CAP service.

Speaking for myself, I'd like a honor guard, a flag folding ceremony and a gun salute befitting my rank.

We had a long-time member die of natural causes a few years ago.  Our DCS was a good friend and asked the family if they wanted some kind of CAP participation at the services.  We ended up having an honor guard posted on each side of the urn during the receiving of friends, and then they sat down in the front while the memorial service was conducted.  I participated along with two of our cadets and another Senior Member.  It was an honor doing it, even if I had never met the man.  He was a military veteran, WWII I think, and a long-time CAP member.  We should certainly have the ability to offer these types of tributes if it is requested.

[fyrfitrmedic]

 A few comments:

- The only fire-service funerals I've attended in other than a dress uniform were situations where we were in service as the cover company for the station laying their member to rest.

- I attended an EMS memorial service in NYC post-9/11 at which the prescribed dress code was "dress to represent". Personnel from around the planet were present in all manner of uniforms from t-shirts to dress uniforms. What they all had in common is that they were all clean and as neat as possible and all represented the attendees' respective EMS agencies.

- CAP desperately needs some sort of properly-disseminated guidance document for funerary matters. I've personally run into this issue twice now burying family members who were active members.

[Grumpy]

A few comments:

- The only fire-service funerals I've attended in other than a dress uniform were situations where we were in service as the cover company for the station laying their member to rest.

- I attended an EMS memorial service in NYC post-9/11 at which the prescribed dress code was "dress to represent". Personnel from around the planet were present in all manner of uniforms from t-shirts to dress uniforms. What they all had in common is that they were all clean and as neat as possible and all represented the attendees' respective EMS agencies.

- CAP desperately needs some sort of properly-disseminated guidance document for funerary matters. I've personally run into this issue twice now burying family members who were active members.

Go to eservices on the national web site.  Click on pubs and forms and go to pamphlets.  CAPP 52-8, page 8, para 2.5 talks about the CAP Honor Guard and funerals.  Chapter 7 goes into even more detail.

[fyrfitrmedic]

A few comments:

- The only fire-service funerals I've attended in other than a dress uniform were situations where we were in service as the cover company for the station laying their member to rest.

- I attended an EMS memorial service in NYC post-9/11 at which the prescribed dress code was "dress to represent". Personnel from around the planet were present in all manner of uniforms from t-shirts to dress uniforms. What they all had in common is that they were all clean and as neat as possible and all represented the attendees' respective EMS agencies.

- CAP desperately needs some sort of properly-disseminated guidance document for funerary matters. I've personally run into this issue twice now burying family members who were active members.

Go to eservices on the national web site.  Click on pubs and forms and go to pamphlets.  CAPP 52-8, page 8, para 2.5 talks about the CAP Honor Guard and funerals.  Chapter 7 goes into even more detail.

The key to this is dissemination, IMHO.

[docspur]

Go to eservices on the national web site.  Click on pubs and forms and go to pamphlets.  CAPP 52-8, page 8, para 2.5 talks about the CAP Honor Guard and funerals.  Chapter 7 goes into even more detail.

I always wanted to serve on a Military Funeral Honor Guard...or even on a Color Guard for that matter.  But SM's...I mean "Officers"... are not allowed...only cadets.  Why is that? 

[JayT]

Guys, CAP isn't really a search and rescue organization, and I don't think we should pretend that we're on par with a lot of other oganizations. If anything, we should conform to our military traitions way before any 'SAR' traditions.

[afgeo4]

Go to eservices on the national web site.  Click on pubs and forms and go to pamphlets.  CAPP 52-8, page 8, para 2.5 talks about the CAP Honor Guard and funerals.  Chapter 7 goes into even more detail.

I always wanted to serve on a Military Funeral Honor Guard...or even on a Color Guard for that matter.  But SM's...I mean "Officers"... are not allowed...only cadets.  Why is that? 

Not sure. Probably because it made sense to make this type of thing a cadet program beacuse 99.99% of the time our Officers aren't up to snuff to do this kind of thing. Honor Guard, more so than other teams like Color Guard or Drill Team require strong military appearance, exceptional self-discipline, physical aptitude and uniformity. Those traits aren't very common among our adult members, but quite common among our older cadets. Officers are allowed to be mentors and trainers in the Honor Guard program, but do not perform duties or wear the uniform.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Traditionally, the Guard of Honor was made up of the best soldiers in a unit, and was selected to guard the commander and his staff in the field.  Similarly, the Color Guard were the best troops, because loss of the unit's flag in the days before radios meant that the unit could not rally and re-form after an attack.

[Nomex Maximus]

Guys, CAP isn't really a search and rescue organization, and I don't think we should pretend that we're on par with a lot of other oganizations. If anything, we should conform to our military traitions way before any 'SAR' traditions.

We're not a SAR organization? Better tell the cap.gov webmaster!

From the CAP webpage:

"OPERATIONS
Performs 95 percent of nation's inland search and rescue
100 lives on average saved per year
Aerial reconnaissance for homeland security
Disaster relief and damage assessment
Transport for time-sensitive medical materials
Counter-narcotic missions"

[afgeo4]

Guys, CAP isn't really a search and rescue organization, and I don't think we should pretend that we're on par with a lot of other oganizations. If anything, we should conform to our military traitions way before any 'SAR' traditions.

We're not a SAR organization? Better tell the cap.gov webmaster!

From the CAP webpage:

"OPERATIONS
Performs 95 percent of nation's inland search and rescue
100 lives on average saved per year
Aerial reconnaissance for homeland security
Disaster relief and damage assessment
Transport for time-sensitive medical materials
Counter-narcotic missions"

Maximus... That's just the OPERATIONS part of CAP and...

Aerial recon = NOT SAR
Disaster Relief = NOT SAR
Transport = NOT SAR
Counter-Narcotics = NOT SAR

Civil Air Patrol is NOT a SAR organization. SAR is just one of the things we do and in my opinion isn't the thing we do best. We have 3 major (although I'd say 5) missions.

Cadet Programs is probably as big, if not bigger than Emergency Services when it comes to how many people are involved and what part of the budget (CAP, not USAF) is alotted to it. Aerospace Education is also nothing to sneeze at. Our other now major missions are Disaster Relief (it's not the same as SAR) and Homeland Security. Add to that all the community affairs we do and we are maybe 15% SAR? 20%?

[JayT]

Guys, CAP isn't really a search and rescue organization, and I don't think we should pretend that we're on par with a lot of other oganizations. If anything, we should conform to our military traitions way before any 'SAR' traditions.

We're not a SAR organization? Better tell the cap.gov webmaster!

From the CAP webpage:

"OPERATIONS
Performs 95 percent of nation's inland search and rescue
100 lives on average saved per year
Aerial reconnaissance for homeland security
Disaster relief and damage assessment
Transport for time-sensitive medical materials
Counter-narcotic missions"

We're as much a SAR organization as we are the Air Force Auxiliary.

Ninety five percent of the inland SAR? What exactly does that mean? What does a SAR mission consist of?
Aerial Recce isn't SAR at all, it's Aerial Recce.
DR is such a broad term that I'm not sure what it means.
How often do we really do transport missions?
Counter Narcs is.......counter narcs.

I guess CAP is different things to different people. But it seems to me, more and more lately, that the Search and Rescue aspect of our program, as well as the whole 'US CAP' thing and the 'USAFAux' thing are more to bring people into the program then any meaningful terms.

[JohnKachenmeister]

What I tell my ground teams (and anybody else who will listen)

"SAR" does not equal "Search and Rescue."

"SAR" = "Search and Recovery."

It is at LEAST 6 hours after an aircraft goes missing until we get the call.  Then we assemble a task force under an IC.  2 more hours.  Then we look for the missing plane, 4-8 hours if everything goes right.

So, we are talking a MINIMUM of 12-16 hours before the guy can expect rescue.  Usually much more time is required to find the target. 

If he's badly hurt, he will die in that time.

If he isn't badly hurt, he will call 9-1-1 on his cell phone and get help.  If he can afford to fly an airplane, he can afford that which every teenage girl at the mall has.  In that case, we won't even get the call, he will be rescued before AFRCC even knows he's in trouble.

So, when a decision comes up to take a risky action that may speed things up versus a safer but more time-consuming action, remember, the target is dead.  Tomorrow, he will still be dead.  You and your crew are alive.  I'm sorry about the target, but I think I will try to retain the current status.

The best we can do is recover his carcass before the Florida wildlife eats too much, and the family doesn't have enough to bury.

Cruel?  Yes.  True?  Yes.

[Major Carrales]

When I go, you'd better all be in service caps. 

Honestly, all joking aside, I don't think it is at all out of line for CAP officers to honor their departed brethren.  There should be a rubric for CAP funerals.

[SARMedTech]

So all officers wearing "SAVE" ribbons should take them off? SAR teams do NOT make the decision that a rescue has become a recovery any more than when it IS a recovery we make a determination as to the cause of death. Until they are told otherwise, a good SAR team is always looking for a living person.  We are not coroners or medical examiners. Until someone whose job it is to declare someone dead does so, it is a rescue operation. By telling your teams that they are essentially going out to recover remains, you remove the urgency from the operation. You have just given a team a reason to think that it does not matter when they get there or if they get there at all.

Ive been on many non-CAP SAR operations and have been the team leader on several. Anyone on one of my teams who calls it a search and recovery before we even leave mission base is "invited" to stand down and return home.

[Skyray]

When I go, you had all better be drunk.

There has got to be some Irish in my background somewhere.

[floridacyclist]

My best friend and I grew up in the cadet program together and we have a simple promise to the other: If (when actually) one of us dies, the other will throw the biggest Irish wake you have seen yet with standing orders that no one will remain standing.

Not that I would need orders to get drunk if something happened to him.

[RogueLeader]

My best friend and I grew up in the cadet program together and we have a simple promise to the other: If (when actually) one of us dies, the other will throw the biggest Irish wake you have seen yet with standing orders that no one will remain standing.

Not that I would need orders to get drunk if something happened to him.

Off topic, but would that be considered "sitting" orders.

But I think that having those ideas in place are a good thing.

[JohnKachenmeister]

On the police department we had to fill out these emergency notification forms, and you had to list anybody that you wanted notified of your death, and by whom they should be notified, if you had a preference.

I put down that a deputy chief should notify my dog.

After all, they have about the same size brain.  My dog just has a more pleasant personality and gets along with people better.

[Smokey]

I've attended a number of police officer funerals both in the Chicago area (ref Nomex's comment previously about Chicago area) and on the west coast. Also a couple of CAP funerals.

As for the police....SOP is Class A (that's what we call them) long sleeve with tie. The baton and radio are left off of the Sam Browne belt. West coast agencies for the most part do not have the dress jackets like east coast agencies. So no coat/jacket is worn.

In the Chicago area we wore long sleeve shirt with tie , standard uniform jacket in winter (either the leather or nylon, whichever the agency issued).

I've never seen  utility style uniforms, etc worn at any police funeral.

One CAP funeral had CAP members wearing a variety....service dress, long sleeve blue shirts w/tie, blazer uniform, and corporate white/grey. 

The other, held at a National Cemetery had folks in service dress and the long sleeve blue shirt and tie.  A cadet honor guard did a great job  working well with the military honor guard that was present. Very impressive.

While I respect Nomex's wishes for his final departure...I think, IMHO, service dress is much more appropriate.

[0]

Not sure if it's been said but I like the idea of a fly-over using the cessnas but I'd rather see it done in the missing man formation seems more fitting especially if the loss was in the field. 

Service dress uniforms I think would be warn much more preferable and a sign of respect of the fallen and the fallen's family.

[Flying Pig]

SARMedTech
"...a good SAR team is always looking for a living person.  We are not coroners or medical examiners. Until someone whose job it is to declare someone dead does so, it is a rescue operation. By telling your teams that they are essentially going out to recover remains, you remove the urgency from the operation. You have just given a team a reason to think that it does not matter when they get there or if they get there at all."

Yes and No.  (Non-CAP SARs) Ive been on several SARs where we knew we were looking for a body.  We have a lot of SARs in the high elevation lakes and rivers for people gone missing while rafting or fishing, ie.  somoene finds their raft, or saw someone floating down the river face down.  The Kings River and San Joaquin River are brutal.

We give it our all, but in the end, we arent going to risk lives looking for someone who in a probablity is going to be dead.  We spent 3 days looking for a guy in the upper san Joaquin River who was seen slipping off of a rock into the river and went under in the rapids.  Never seen again.  The helo was on scene in 15 minutes, and the water units took about an hour.  We knew we werent looking for a live person.  Sure you always have that thought about going around the next tree and finding the guy holding onto a rock or something.  But in reality, a river that is fed by snow melt from the Sierras...it aint gonna happen.

We found him 3 days later bouncing along the bottom of a small eddy in the river.

[ddelaney103]

Not sure if it's been said but I like the idea of a fly-over using the cessnas but I'd rather see it done in the missing man formation seems more fitting especially if the loss was in the field. 

Formation flying is a skill requiring dozens of hours to learn and can be a nail biting experience even for trained fighter pilots.

Trying to do it with the usual CAP aviator is just asking for trouble.

[flyerthom]

When I go, you had all better be drunk.

There has got to be some Irish in my background somewhere.

Here Here! Tell ya what. When I'm off duty tonight I'll have one for you!

When I go I want everyone to have a belt not to mourn my passing but celebrate my living and their remaining time. 

[Nomex Maximus]

Not sure if it's been said but I like the idea of a fly-over using the cessnas but I'd rather see it done in the missing man formation seems more fitting especially if the loss was in the field. 

Formation flying is a skill requiring dozens of hours to learn and can be a nail biting experience even for trained fighter pilots.

Trying to do it with the usual CAP aviator is just asking for trouble.

Again, what I suggested is not really a formation. Just a series of slow flyovers by perhaps four aircraft. We already do flyovers for WWII vet funerals. Not sure why a WWII vet would want a CAP plane for a flyover, but hey, that's what's done.

[Grumpy]

Man, this subject is as bad as the saluting subject.  Talk about beating a dead horse.
You guys have said the same things in more ways than I care to count.

As I mentioned the other day, there are already guide lines in place.  Use them.   

[floridacyclist]

When I go I want everyone to have a belt not to mourn my passing but celebrate my living and their remaining time. 

I think that's a good point to make, and that is exactly how Dale and I look at it. It's not a time of grieving, but a going-away party.