CAP Passengers on Proficiency Flights?

[etodd]

CAPR-60 is a little fuzzy, or I'm not looking in the right place. If I'm on a Proficiency Flight "on my own dime" ....can I take any CAP member along for the ride, including Cadet(s)?

If a Cadet was just going for the ride, would it count against their 5 O-Ride limit if they rode front right seat?

IOW ... why fly alone for my Proficiency Flights when there are empty seats available and folks eager to fly?

[Майор Хаткевич]

CAPR-60 is a little fuzzy, or I'm not looking in the right place. If I'm on a Proficiency Flight "on my own dime" ....can I take any CAP member along for the ride, including Cadet(s)?

If a Cadet was just going for the ride, would it count against their 5 O-Ride limit if they rode front right seat?

IOW ... why fly alone for my Proficiency Flights when there are empty seats available and folks eager to fly?

I'm no pilot. But are you O-flight rated? What do the regs say about Cadets flying?

[etodd]

CAPR-60 is a little fuzzy, or I'm not looking in the right place. If I'm on a Proficiency Flight "on my own dime" ....can I take any CAP member along for the ride, including Cadet(s)?

If a Cadet was just going for the ride, would it count against their 5 O-Ride limit if they rode front right seat?

IOW ... why fly alone for my Proficiency Flights when there are empty seats available and folks eager to fly?

I'm no pilot. But are you O-flight rated? What do the regs say about Cadets flying?

Yes, I'm O-Flight rated.  But all the regs deal with the actual O-Flights. I can't find mention of when and if Cadets can fly other than O-Rides.   

[Майор Хаткевич]

CAPR-60 is a little fuzzy, or I'm not looking in the right place. If I'm on a Proficiency Flight "on my own dime" ....can I take any CAP member along for the ride, including Cadet(s)?

If a Cadet was just going for the ride, would it count against their 5 O-Ride limit if they rode front right seat?

IOW ... why fly alone for my Proficiency Flights when there are empty seats available and folks eager to fly?

I'm no pilot. But are you O-flight rated? What do the regs say about Cadets flying?

Yes, I'm O-Flight rated.  But all the regs deal with the actual O-Flights. I can't find mention of when and if Cadets can fly other than O-Rides.

What does CPP say?

[Eclipse]

CAPR-60 is a little fuzzy, or I'm not looking in the right place. If I'm on a Proficiency Flight "on my own dime" ....can I take any CAP member along for the ride, including Cadet(s)?

Senior members with Level 1 can generally go as ballast, but cadets would likely be discouraged at best.
The CPT issues alone make this an iffy proposition, if not impossible.  Also, all mission flying, and CAP proficiency hours are a mission,
are supposed to have a flight profile and purpose.

I also don't think you'd be able to release the flight with them listed on board.

If a Cadet was just going for the ride, would it count against their 5 O-Ride limit if they rode front right seat?

No.  O-rides require approval, can only be flown by an approved O-Ride pilot, and have a specific syllabus.

IOW ... why fly alone for my Proficiency Flights when there are empty seats available and folks eager to fly?

For starters you would run into CPT issues being with a cadet by yourself.  during the sortie you can be 1-up,
but not otherwise.

[etodd]

Oh for sure. I didn't mean just me and one Cadet. But if me and another senior are out on a Proficiency Flight, can a Cadet go along, and could they ride front seat without it counting against their 5 official O-Rides.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Oh for sure. I didn't mean just me and one Cadet. But if me and another senior are out on a Proficiency Flight, can a Cadet go along, and could they ride front seat without it counting against their 5 official O-Rides.

As Eclipse wrote, O-Rides have a specific process and a syllabus. Anything outside of that is not an O-flight, but it is a good idea not to run afoul of any other flight regs.

[etodd]

Oh for sure. I didn't mean just me and one Cadet. But if me and another senior are out on a Proficiency Flight, can a Cadet go along, and could they ride front seat without it counting against their 5 official O-Rides.

As Eclipse wrote, O-Rides have a specific process and a syllabus. Anything outside of that is not an O-flight, but it is a good idea not to run afoul of any other flight regs.

Yep. Which is why I'm asking.  I just can't find any mention of Cadet ride alongs. Seems like as long as the rule of three is applied, the extra flight time for Cadets would be encouraged.  But until I get some definitive answers, of course I'll hold off.  Maybe I'm missing some regs or policies elsewhere.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Oh for sure. I didn't mean just me and one Cadet. But if me and another senior are out on a Proficiency Flight, can a Cadet go along, and could they ride front seat without it counting against their 5 official O-Rides.

As Eclipse wrote, O-Rides have a specific process and a syllabus. Anything outside of that is not an O-flight, but it is a good idea not to run afoul of any other flight regs.

Yep. Which is why I'm asking.  I just can't find any mention of Cadet ride alongs. Seems like as long as the rule of three is applied, the extra flight time for Cadets would be encouraged.  But until I get some definitive answers, of course I'll hold off.  Maybe I'm missing some regs or policies elsewhere.

What about the mission point Eclipse brought up?

[Eclipse]

Military style regulations are written in a "only what is written is authorized".

Thus, they tell you what you can do, to the exclusion of anything else.

[etodd]

I keep running into wording like this:

As part of Civil Air Patrol's aerospace education mission, cadets under 18 years of age are allowed five front-seat rides inpowered aircraft, plus five rides in gliders.  Cadets who have had all of their front-seat rides can ride along in the back seat as many times as they wish until they turn 18.

So is that back seat time in ANY flight ... or just in O-Rides where other Cadets are flying front seat?

Its clear as mud.

As for the 'mission' I'm talking about Profiency flights for Seniors, with an empty back seat where Cadets or other Seniors could ride along and watch and learn from the two in front.

[HGjunkie]

Military style regulations are written in a "only what is written is authorized".

Thus, they tell you what you can do, to the exclusion of anything else.

In the Air Force, yes. In the military as a whole, not quite.

[Eclipse]

CAPR-60 is a little fuzzy, or I'm not looking in the right place. If I'm on a Proficiency Flight "on my own dime" ....can I take any CAP member along for the ride, including Cadet(s)?

The answer is "yes", and it's not fuzzy:

CAPR 60-1, Page 9. http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R060_001_E70E3BAE1C0D4.pdf

2-3. Passenger Requirements. Authorized passengers are current CAP members whose
category of membership allows them to ride in corporate aircraft as specified in CAPR 39-2,
Civil Air Patrol Membership, CAP employees, ROTC/JROTC cadets (ROTC/JROTC flight
orientation program only), International Air Cadet Exchange (IACE) orientation flight cadets and
escorts, CAP-USAF personnel conducting official business, FAA Inspectors, or FAA designated
pilot examiners during flight evaluations.

There is also this requirement:
Page 9
f. Only pilots that are qualified as CAP instructors, cadet and ROTC/JROTC orientation pilots, SAR/DR or transport mission pilots (during supervised missions) may carry CAP cadets as passengers or crew members. At no time may a pilot who is a CAP cadet carry another CAP cadet as a passenger or crew member.

So the typical low-time pilot building hours is not allowed to fly cadets, and if you're an O-ride pilot,
why would you fly cadets on your own nickel when there is funded flying available?

[Eclipse]

I keep running into wording like this:

As part of Civil Air Patrol's aerospace education mission, cadets under 18 years of age are allowed five front-seat rides in powered aircraft, plus five rides in gliders.  Cadets who have had all of their front-seat rides can ride along in the back seat as many times as they wish until they turn 18.

So is that back seat time in ANY flight ... or just in O-Rides where other Cadets are flying front seat?

It's very clear, and it's just orientation rides, on an orientation sortie, with an orientation pilot.

[etodd]

I keep running into wording like this:

As part of Civil Air Patrol's aerospace education mission, cadets under 18 years of age are allowed five front-seat rides in powered aircraft, plus five rides in gliders.  Cadets who have had all of their front-seat rides can ride along in the back seat as many times as they wish until they turn 18.

So is that back seat time in ANY flight ... or just in O-Rides where other Cadets are flying front seat?

It's very clear, and it's just orientation rides, on an orientation sortie, with an orientation pilot.

OK. I'll defer to the experienced folks here. I'm the newbie trying to fly a few hours each month and just hate to see those Cadets miss opportunities. But I'm sure there are good reasons.

[lordmonar]

So the typical low-time pilot building hours is not allowed to fly cadets, and if you're an O-ride pilot,
why would you fly cadets on your own nickel when there is funded flying available?

On the other hand.....if you are gonna fly on your own dime and you got an empty seat (and you are a O-ride/instructor/etc) why not put a cadet in that seat? 

Keeping to the no-lone rule for CPP.

[etodd]

So the typical low-time pilot building hours is not allowed to fly cadets, and if you're an O-ride pilot,
why would you fly cadets on your own nickel when there is funded flying available?

Yes, I'm an O-Ride pilot. Yes there are 5 "funded"  O-Rides available for a Cadet who joins at age 12 and stays until 18. Thats less than once a year. Maybe twice if they ride back seat.

I'm a guy with 5 kids and 7 grandkids that I take flying often for fun flights in OTHER airplanes. And they will often bring along their friends. Been sharing the love of aviation with kids for years. Member of EAA as well and a Young Eagles Pilot. I don't mind at all paying for planes here and there to try and jumpstart a kid's interest in aviation.

I was just hoping to do some more of the same in CAP.  But obviously will just have to settle for the occasional O-Ride day. All is good.

[etodd]

So the typical low-time pilot building hours is not allowed to fly cadets, and if you're an O-ride pilot,
why would you fly cadets on your own nickel when there is funded flying available?

On the other hand.....if you are gonna fly on your own dime and you got an empty seat (and you are a O-ride/instructor/etc) why not put a cadet in that seat? 

Keeping to the no-lone rule for CPP.

Sounds good to me, but others above don't think its a good idea. So whats a guy to do? Stay conservative I guess.  LOL

[Майор Хаткевич]

So the typical low-time pilot building hours is not allowed to fly cadets, and if you're an O-ride pilot,
why would you fly cadets on your own nickel when there is funded flying available?

Yes, I'm an O-Ride pilot. Yes there are 5 "funded"  O-Rides available for a Cadet who joins at age 12 and stays until 18. Thats less than once a year. Maybe twice if they ride back seat.

I'm a guy with 5 kids and 7 grandkids that I take flying often for fun flights in OTHER airplanes. And they will often bring along their friends. Been sharing the love of aviation with kids for years. Member of EAA as well and a Young Eagles Pilot. I don't mind at all paying for planes here and there to try and jumpstart a kid's interest in aviation.

I was just hoping to do some more of the same in CAP.  But obviously will just have to settle for the occasional O-Ride day. All is good.

Cadets can get all 5 in a day if that were to be the situation. Then they have access to extremely affordable flight academies beyond that.

[Eclipse]

But obviously will just have to settle for the occasional O-Ride day.

You do not have to wait for an O-ride day.

You can fly o-rides any time you have access to a plane and the cadets. and Ma Blue will happily pay for it.

Meeting nights are an especially good time to fly O-rides, especially in the spring and summer.

Most wings leave money on the table every year, and there are always cadets who need rides and 99s.

[Storm Chaser]

Military style regulations are written in a "only what is written is authorized".

Thus, they tell you what you can do, to the exclusion of anything else.

In the Air Force, yes. In the military as a whole, not quite.

As someone who's been in the Air Force for the past 20 years (active, guard, reserve), I have to disagree. Not every AFI or AF publication is written that way.

[Storm Chaser]

So the typical low-time pilot building hours is not allowed to fly cadets, and if you're an O-ride pilot,
why would you fly cadets on your own nickel when there is funded flying available?

On the other hand.....if you are gonna fly on your own dime and you got an empty seat (and you are a O-ride/instructor/etc) why not put a cadet in that seat? 

Keeping to the no-lone rule for CPP.

Sounds good to me, but others above don't think its a good idea. So whats a guy to do? Stay conservative I guess.  LOL

Or, you can reach out to your wing (through your chain of command) and get clarification. While cadets can fly as passengers outside of orientation flights, it's not clear in the regulation whether they can fly backseat in a self-funded proficiency flight (they certainly cannot in a funded proficiency flight). Without further guidance, you should take the conservative response. That said, getting advise in a public forum from many non-pilot/non-IC/non-Ops guys is not going to help you much. My recommendation is don't do it unless someone with authority in your wing says it's ok.

[JeffDG]

(they certainly cannot in a funded proficiency flight).

I'm not certain you couldn't carry a cadet as "additional ballast" on a Profile #4 proficiency flight on an A12.

[NIN]

"Cadet, please put down your name here, under 'self-propelled ballast'.  Thank you."

[DavidWTilley]

First of all, many wings have extra money to fund O-flights beyond the 5. Secondly, even if that is not available, you could always enter it as a "B" mission and do the O-flight that way. I think the insurance is different for A and B missions as opposed to C missions, so in case the worst happens, the extra insurance of a B mission could be beneficial. I don't know anything in the regs that would specifically prohibit taking a cadet on a C mission proficiency flight, but why do that when there are better options?

[Blanding]

Hey so there are a lot of folks telling you to avoid flying cadets self-funded because there are better ways to do it, but none have yet quoted a regulation that forbids it on a C type proficiency flight. A cadet is an eligible passenger in a CAP aircraft and (as you said) increasing their opportunity to fly provides a huge benefit to the aviation community.

Couple examples where I've exercised this privilege: flying to a Commander's Call / CAC meeting - the cadets need a ride, so why use the van? I've also transported cadets to RCLS and Hawk Mountain on self-funded C type missions without issue.

There should be no conflict with the objectives of a proficiency flight in the eyes of the organization, as you should be entering your sortie objectives and outcomes to include the proficiency you gained as well as the education you provided to the membership.

-Ryan

[FW]

CAPR-60 is a little fuzzy, or I'm not looking in the right place. If I'm on a Proficiency Flight "on my own dime" ....can I take any CAP member along for the ride, including Cadet(s)?

If a Cadet was just going for the ride, would it count against their 5 O-Ride limit if they rode front right seat?

IOW ... why fly alone for my Proficiency Flights when there are empty seats available and folks eager to fly?

You may take any member as a passenger when performing a "proficiency flight".  That said, a proficiency flight is not an O-Flight; two different protocols. Flying with cadets as passengers also requires adherence to CPP. 

I think, though, it would be a good practice to perform proficiency flights with another pilot (safety pilot, or instructor) to actually gain some good experiences while flying.  Shared opportunity, as well as expense is a good thing...

[Mustang]

Military style regulations are written in a "only what is written is authorized".

Thus, they tell you what you can do, to the exclusion of anything else.

In the Air Force, yes. In the military as a whole, not quite.

As someone who's been in the Air Force for the past 20 years (active, guard, reserve), I have to disagree. Not every AFI or AF publication is written that way.

Eclipse has never been in the military, so he's speaking out of turn on this. His statement isn't even true for CAP; while SOME regs are restrictive (39-1, 60-1, for example), others are permissive and serve only as starting points or to define the bare minimum. I can't imagine a successful AE program which did nothing beyond the bare minimum or used only the examples contained in CAP texts.

[Storm Chaser]

My post was not meant to diminish Eclipse' service and contributions in other areas. He's certainly done a lot in CAP and his interpretations of the regulations are usually on the dot. The problem with CAP's regulations is two-fold. On the one hand, they're not always clear, which leaves room for interpretation. On the other, many (most?) of our members and commanders are not trained well enough to interpret those regulations adequately, which sometimes leads to opposing interpretations of the same text.

[etodd]

..... The problem with CAP's regulations is two-fold. On the one hand, they're not always clear, which leaves room for interpretation. On the other, many (most?) of our members and commanders are not trained well enough to interpret those regulations adequately, which sometimes leads to opposing interpretations of the same text.

Yep. Which makes it difficult for folks like me who are willing to to help get Cadets in the air much more often, even if its on my dime.  I pay for the plane when I fly kids on EAA Eagle Flight days. No big deal.  But I'm hearing so much back and forth here at CAP on the matter, that its discouraging. Yes ... I fully understand the constraints these days, CPP, and all of that. It was obviously not a good thread to have started. I'll stick to EAA days for flying the kids for fun as often as I can. And just keep to official "O" rides at CAP.

(If Cadets happen to see EAA posters at the airport and show up to EAA days, sans-uniform, maybe they could enjoy a ride from a EAA pilot. LOL )

[Майор Хаткевич]

..... The problem with CAP's regulations is two-fold. On the one hand, they're not always clear, which leaves room for interpretation. On the other, many (most?) of our members and commanders are not trained well enough to interpret those regulations adequately, which sometimes leads to opposing interpretations of the same text.

Yep. Which makes it difficult for folks like me who are willing to to help get Cadets in the air much more often, even if its on my dime.  I pay for the plane when I fly kids on EAA Eagle Flight days. No big deal.  But I'm hearing so much back and forth here at CAP on the matter, that its discouraging. Yes ... I fully understand the constraints these days, CPP, and all of that. It was obviously not a good thread to have started. I'll stick to EAA days for flying the kids for fun as often as I can. And just keep to official "O" rides at CAP.

(If Cadets happen to see EAA posters at the airport and show up to EAA days, sans-uniform, maybe they could enjoy a ride from a EAA pilot. LOL )

Attitudes like this is why we have to have CPP. For every 100 well intentioned people, there will be a few not so well intentioned people.

[Eclipse]

There is a very fine line between "well intentioned effort" and "grooming behavior".  The latter doesn't show itself until it is too late, which is why the
best course for all involved is to walk down the middle of the road and not push too hard in any direction.

Considering all the O-ride money on the table, anyone too excited about getting cadets in the air outside that paradigm would certainly
raise my concern, and that includes the "meet me at the EAA this weekend and I can fly you by myself and CAP can't do 'nuthin bout it" stance.

In that case, the mitigating factor would be having a non-CAP member EAA pilot fly the Eagle ride, which would be my strong advice for
the members affected.

[Blanding]

There is a very fine line between "well intentioned effort" and "grooming behavior".  The latter doesn't show itself until it is too late, which is why the
best course for all involved is to walk down the middle of the road and not push too hard in any direction.

Considering all the O-ride money on the table, anyone too excited about getting cadets in the air outside that paradigm would certainly
raise my concern, and that includes the "meet me at the EAA this weekend and I can fly you by myself and CAP can't do 'nuthin bout it" stance.

Considering that O-ride money is earmarked for a specific type of flying, why is it automatically concerning if a pilot brings a cadet on a CAP flight that does not fit the O-Flight syllabus?

If I fly a self-funded flight with a SM Mission Observer doing XYZ proficiency and bring a cadet in the back to observe the training and experience the flight, why do I deserve to be labeled as a "groomer"?

[Майор Хаткевич]

There is a very fine line between "well intentioned effort" and "grooming behavior".  The latter doesn't show itself until it is too late, which is why the
best course for all involved is to walk down the middle of the road and not push too hard in any direction.

Considering all the O-ride money on the table, anyone too excited about getting cadets in the air outside that paradigm would certainly
raise my concern, and that includes the "meet me at the EAA this weekend and I can fly you by myself and CAP can't do 'nuthin bout it" stance.

Considering that O-ride money is earmarked for a specific type of flying, why is it automatically concerning if a pilot brings a cadet on a CAP flight that does not fit the O-Flight syllabus?

If I fly a self-funded flight with a SM Mission Observer doing XYZ proficiency and bring a cadet in the back to observe the training and experience the flight, why do I deserve to be labeled as a "groomer"?

Cite please.

[FW]

^ There is nothing wrong about having a cadet fly in the back seat while two senior members are flying a proficiency flight.  It is totally acceptable, however a "one and one" flight is a recipe for trouble.  One senior member taking one unrelated cadet for "a ride" is not, IMHO, good practice. There is good reason we have a CPP, and I would hope all members take it seriously.

[etodd]

.... that includes the "meet me at the EAA this weekend and I can fly you by myself and CAP can't do 'nuthin bout it" stance.

Geez folks. Get your minds out of the gutter.  Even EAA knows better than doing a one on one flight. I personally never fly a kid in the plane on other days without one of their parents in the plane also.  For CAP, I'm talking about a couple Senior Members up front and one or two Cadets in the back.  But even that is getting frowned upon by many, so I'll just leave the whole topic alone.

I'm just a guy who loves aviation  ..... sees the GA pilot age getting older and older .... and too few kids able to learn these days. Too few kids getting past the gates and security at airports to even touch a plane anymore. Once the General Aviation pilot numbers get low enough, we will start seeing our ability to just run out to the airport and fly for fun curbed ... like it is in many countries in Europe.

We need to get kids interested in aviation starting in grade school levels ... or it'll all be gone one day. And the only way to do that is to get them in planes and let them see they can fly. And I just see CAP letting many opportunities pass by.

[Blanding]

As a reminder, this was the original question:

Oh for sure. I didn't mean just me and one Cadet. But if me and another senior are out on a Proficiency Flight, can a Cadet go along, and could they ride front seat without it counting against their 5 official O-Rides.

No one has yet provided any evidence to support the notion that this is a prohibited request. All I've seen is a lot of "that would be discouraged" - yet there is no conceivable reason why it should be discouraged. It's within CPP, it's in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and it promotes our aerospace mission.

Note that cadets can be mission scanners and observers also... How else would they earn those ratings if not for proficiency / training flying? Since cadets are not allowed to fly other cadets, SMs are required to fly cadets outside the O-Flight curriculum for this to happen. It's up to the pilot to adhere to CPP rules, but it can be done.

[Майор Хаткевич]

.... that includes the "meet me at the EAA this weekend and I can fly you by myself and CAP can't do 'nuthin bout it" stance.

Geez folks. Get your minds out of the gutter.  Even EAA knows better than doing a one on one flight. I personally never fly a kid in the plane on other days without one of their parents in the plane also.  For CAP, I'm talking about a couple Senior Members up front and one or two Cadets in the back.  But even that is getting frowned upon by many, so I'll just leave the whole topic alone.

I'm just a guy who loves aviation  ..... sees the GA pilot age getting older and older .... and too few kids able to learn these days. Too few kids getting past the gates and security at airports to even touch a plane anymore. Once the General Aviation pilot numbers get low enough, we will start seeing our ability to just run out to the airport and fly for fun curbed ... like it is in many countries in Europe.

We need to get kids interested in aviation starting in grade school levels ... or it'll all be gone one day. And the only way to do that is to get them in planes and let them see they can fly. And I just see CAP letting many opportunities pass by.

Isn't that what others said? Abide by CPP, have two SMs, and you're all good.


As for aviation trends...


I was out at the unit outfitting a cadet a few weekends back (don't worry, the parent was there as well!), and a gentleman came up to us, curious. Turns out he was a cadet back in the day at the O'Hare unit. Asked if the cadet wanted to check out his plane, and seeing me as someone young, asked if I'm interested in aviation. When I told him it wasn't for me, he said I was still young, and could get into it.


Sounds great. But even being in the "top 10%" of income distribution, flying is prohibitive to my marriage, pets, hobbies, interests, and mortgage payments.

[Майор Хаткевич]

As a reminder, this was the original question:

Oh for sure. I didn't mean just me and one Cadet. But if me and another senior are out on a Proficiency Flight, can a Cadet go along, and could they ride front seat without it counting against their 5 official O-Rides.

No one has yet provided any evidence to support the notion that this is a prohibited request. All I've seen is a lot of "that would be discouraged" - yet there is no conceivable reason why it should be discouraged. It's within CPP, it's in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and it promotes our aerospace mission.

Note that cadets can be mission scanners and observers also... How else would they earn those ratings if not for proficiency / training flying? Since cadets are not allowed to fly other cadets, SMs are required to fly cadets outside the O-Flight curriculum for this to happen. It's up to the pilot to adhere to CPP rules, but it can be done.

That was actually the clarification of the OP, not the original question, which indeed does sound like "one on one", which is what was addressed at first, with the CPP + 2 being the answer to the above, from multiple people, multiple times.

[Storm Chaser]

As a reminder, this was the original question:

Oh for sure. I didn't mean just me and one Cadet. But if me and another senior are out on a Proficiency Flight, can a Cadet go along, and could they ride front seat without it counting against their 5 official O-Rides.

No one has yet provided any evidence to support the notion that this is a prohibited request. All I've seen is a lot of "that would be discouraged" - yet there is no conceivable reason why it should be discouraged. It's within CPP, it's in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and it promotes our aerospace mission.

While I haven't seen anything in the regulation prohibiting it, I also haven't see anything authorizing it. This question should be addressed through the chain of command to be on the safe side.

Note that cadets can be mission scanners and observers also... How else would they earn those ratings if not for proficiency / training flying? Since cadets are not allowed to fly other cadets, SMs are required to fly cadets outside the O-Flight curriculum for this to happen. It's up to the pilot to adhere to CPP rules, but it can be done.

Cadets must be at least 18 years old to train as CAP aircrew members. Cadets under 18 years old must have authorization from the wing commander to do flight training.

[Blanding]

As a reminder, this was the original question:

Oh for sure. I didn't mean just me and one Cadet. But if me and another senior are out on a Proficiency Flight, can a Cadet go along, and could they ride front seat without it counting against their 5 official O-Rides.

No one has yet provided any evidence to support the notion that this is a prohibited request. All I've seen is a lot of "that would be discouraged" - yet there is no conceivable reason why it should be discouraged. It's within CPP, it's in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and it promotes our aerospace mission.

While I haven't seen anything in the regulation prohibiting it, I also haven't see anything authorizing it. This question should be addressed through the chain of command to be on the safe side.

CAPR 60-1 (3-May-14):
"2-3. Passenger Requirements. Authorized passengers are current CAP members whose category of membership allows them to ride in corporate aircraft as specified in CAPR 39-2

f. Only pilots that are qualified as CAP instructors, cadet and ROTC/JROTC orientation
pilots, SAR/DR or transport mission pilots (during supervised missions) may carry CAP cadets
as passengers or crew members.

g. Aircraft will not carry CAP or ROTC/JROTC cadets on board during the first 10
tachometer hours following an engine change, major overhaul, or replacement of cylinders or
magnetos.

CAPR 52-10 (1-Oct-14):

"d. Two-Deep Leadership. CAP's general policy is that every cadet activity must be supervised by at least two adult leaders who are in "Approved" status in eServices (see CAPR 39-2, Civil Air Patrol Membership). "

Therefore, it is acceptable because:

1) CAP Cadets are authorized passengers in CAP aircraft
2) The pilot asking the question is a qualified orientation flight pilot
3) The aircraft in question (I assume) has not had recent maintenance preventing a cadet from being on board
4) The flight is supervised by two adult leaders who are in approved status in eServices

Note that cadets can be mission scanners and observers also... How else would they earn those ratings if not for proficiency / training flying? Since cadets are not allowed to fly other cadets, SMs are required to fly cadets outside the O-Flight curriculum for this to happen. It's up to the pilot to adhere to CPP rules, but it can be done.

Cadets must be at least 18 years old to train as CAP aircrew members. Cadets under 18 years old must have authorization from the wing commander to do flight training.

A cadet over 18 is still a cadet - mission training is a great way to allow cadets who can't fly orientation flights into the air, but they're still cadets. They are still protected by CPP, and thus would require the other SM to be part of the crew. Flight training is not the subject of the original poster's question.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Cadets over 18 have to abide by CPP just like SMs...

[Eclipse]

We've literally addressed every one of those points, several times.

Being "legal" doesn't make it a "good idea".  The CPT is clear about that.

This has nothing to do with mission training, this started as a member asking if he could bring cadets along on self-funded flying.

The answer is "yes", at your own risk, and you're not allowed to do it by yourself, since while you can fly the sortie 1-1, you can't meet them, arrange the flight,
or otherwise be in contact with them 1-1, that is not negotiable, nor unclear.

"But wait...!...rare exception, 1% case...this one time...you can't make me..."^® will not change the fact that it's not a best practice.

"But wait...!...rare exception, 1% case...this one time...you can't make me..."^® is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.  Let eClipseco service all of your edge-case and skirting the regulations needs!

[THRAWN]

We've literally addressed every one of those points, several times.

Being "legal" doesn't make it a "good idea".  The CPT is clear about that.

This has nothing to do with mission training, this started as a member asking if he could bring cadets along on self-funded flying.

The answer is "yes", at your own risk, and you're not allowed to do it by yourself, since while you can fly the sortie 1-1, you can't meet them, arrange the flight,
or otherwise be in contact with them 1-1, that is not negotiable, nor unclear.

"But wait...!...rare exception, 1% case...this one time...you can't make me..."^® will not change the fact that it's not a best practice.

"But wait...!...rare exception, 1% case...this one time...you can't make me..."^® is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.  Let eClipseco service all of your edge-case and skirting the regulations needs!

I am interested in your message and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Storm Chaser]

As a reminder, this was the original question:

Oh for sure. I didn't mean just me and one Cadet. But if me and another senior are out on a Proficiency Flight, can a Cadet go along, and could they ride front seat without it counting against their 5 official O-Rides.

No one has yet provided any evidence to support the notion that this is a prohibited request. All I've seen is a lot of "that would be discouraged" - yet there is no conceivable reason why it should be discouraged. It's within CPP, it's in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and it promotes our aerospace mission.

While I haven't seen anything in the regulation prohibiting it, I also haven't see anything authorizing it. This question should be addressed through the chain of command to be on the safe side.

CAPR 60-1 (3-May-14):
"2-3. Passenger Requirements. Authorized passengers are current CAP members whose category of membership allows them to ride in corporate aircraft as specified in CAPR 39-2

f. Only pilots that are qualified as CAP instructors, cadet and ROTC/JROTC orientation
pilots, SAR/DR or transport mission pilots (during supervised missions) may carry CAP cadets
as passengers or crew members.

g. Aircraft will not carry CAP or ROTC/JROTC cadets on board during the first 10
tachometer hours following an engine change, major overhaul, or replacement of cylinders or
magnetos.

CAPR 52-10 (1-Oct-14):

"d. Two-Deep Leadership. CAP's general policy is that every cadet activity must be supervised by at least two adult leaders who are in "Approved" status in eServices (see CAPR 39-2, Civil Air Patrol Membership). "

Therefore, it is acceptable because:

1) CAP Cadets are authorized passengers in CAP aircraft
2) The pilot asking the question is a qualified orientation flight pilot
3) The aircraft in question (I assume) has not had recent maintenance preventing a cadet from being on board
4) The flight is supervised by two adult leaders who are in approved status in eServices

Note that cadets can be mission scanners and observers also... How else would they earn those ratings if not for proficiency / training flying? Since cadets are not allowed to fly other cadets, SMs are required to fly cadets outside the O-Flight curriculum for this to happen. It's up to the pilot to adhere to CPP rules, but it can be done.

Cadets must be at least 18 years old to train as CAP aircrew members. Cadets under 18 years old must have authorization from the wing commander to do flight training.

A cadet over 18 is still a cadet - mission training is a great way to allow cadets who can't fly orientation flights into the air, but they're still cadets. They are still protected by CPP, and thus would require the other SM to be part of the crew. Flight training is not the subject of the original poster's question.

I'm very familiar with CAP passenger requirements in CAPR 60-1, Para. 2-3. What that paragraph doesn't specifically address is cadet passengers on self-funded proficiency flights. While a more liberal interpretation of that paragraph would say it's allowed, I would go with the most conservative response and seek clarification through the chain of command. It would just take a quick e-mail and the question would be settled.

[Spaceman3750]

We've literally addressed every one of those points, several times.

Being "legal" doesn't make it a "good idea".  The CPT is clear about that.

This has nothing to do with mission training, this started as a member asking if he could bring cadets along on self-funded flying.

The answer is "yes", at your own risk, and you're not allowed to do it by yourself, since while you can fly the sortie 1-1, you can't meet them, arrange the flight,
or otherwise be in contact with them 1-1, that is not negotiable, nor unclear.

"But wait...!...rare exception, 1% case...this one time...you can't make me..."^® will not change the fact that it's not a best practice.

"But wait...!...rare exception, 1% case...this one time...you can't make me..."^® is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.  Let eClipseco service all of your edge-case and skirting the regulations needs!

I am interested in your message and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Just don't buy their stock, mining and heavy machining isn't a great place to be right now .