C/Command Chief Master Sergeant

[Eclipse]

I mean, has NHQ put out an official definition? Also, what does "ride herd" mean?

Care and feeding, pay attention to, etc., etc.

Honestly?  If presupposes the military model that doesn't really exist in CAP namely that NCOs take care
of the enlisted and then report up to higher NCOs for day-to-day administrivia, training, etc., while
the officers concentrate on larger-scale management issues.

Most units try, but few units succeed in really working this properly, a lot don't even have the numbers to make it
work if they knew how, and cadets tend to work through the grade structure disconnected from relevent staff positions,
especially in smaller units.

[TexasCadet]

Here is the repost.

Based on the encampment's publicly available guide: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i74r5fb76fyalim/2014%20Pre-Encampment%20Guide.pdf


The position is just the First Shirt, why they need the affectation of "C/CCMsgt" is beyond me, but nothing wrong, really,
with the description of duties.

"9.5 Command Chief Master Sergeant- The Command Chief Master Sergeant (CCMSgt) is responsible
for ensuring that the NCOs of the Encampment are familiar with their duties and responsibilities. The
Command Chief reports to the C/CC, representing the interests of the staff cadet NCOs"

Sorry. I missed that part.

I mean, has NHQ put out an official definition? Also, what does "ride herd" mean?

Care and feeding, pay attention to, etc., etc.

Honestly?  If presupposes the military model that doesn't really exist in CAP namely that NCOs take care
of the enlisted and then report up to higher NCOs for day-to-day administrivia, training, etc., while
the officers concentrate on larger-scale management issues.

Most units try, but few units succeed in really working this properly, a lot don't even have the numbers to make it
work if they knew how, and cadets tend to work through the grade structure disconnected from relevent staff positions,
especially in smaller units.

Looking at this post and the definition above, why does a position have to be created for something commanders are supposed to be doing already?

[Storm Chaser]

Looking at this post and the definition above, why does a position have to be created for something commanders are supposed to be doing already?

This is a position that makes sense in the Air Force, but not so much in CAP. I suspect that it's been used at encampments to mimimic the function in the Air Force, but you're right; that function can be handled by the cadet commander and other cadet staff.

In the Air Force, all leadership positions at the wing and higher headquarters (major commands, numbered air forces, etc.) are held by senior officers (colonels and generals) and the command chief master sergeant position allows the opportunity for senior enlisted to be represented in those structures, advise the commanders on issues regarding enlisted members and ensure the welfare and readiness of the enlisted force.

Remember, unlike in the CAP where cadet officers are airmen and NCOs first, the vast majority of Air Force officers, including commanders, have never been enlisted and may not be aware of enlisted needs and issues as well as other SNCOs. In CAP, the CAC servers a similar function regarding the Cadet Corps.

[lordmonar]

SNCO's do more then that....and they are more important to operations and plans then just representing the enlisted corps.

As printed.....there is nothing wrong with the position at encampment......no really....an assistant to the commander with a direct dotted line to the NCO's of the encampment staff.

Nothing wrong with that at all.

Of course......if you really think that it can be done by the commander and staff.....then why do we have any NCOs on staff at all?

Which by the way I advocate......IIWG I would make Mitchell a pre-req for Encampment Staff.

YMMV.

[TexasCadet]

Based on the encampment's publicly available guide: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i74r5fb76fyalim/2014%20Pre-Encampment%20Guide.pdf


The position is just the First Shirt, why they need the affectation of "C/CCMsgt" is beyond me, but nothing wrong, really,
with the description of duties.

"9.5 Command Chief Master Sergeant- The Command Chief Master Sergeant (CCMSgt) is responsible
for ensuring that the NCOs of the Encampment are familiar with their duties and responsibilities. The
Command Chief reports to the C/CC, representing the interests of the staff cadet NCOs"

I think we should have cadet NCOs on staff, not just officers. The definition says that the C/CCMSgt is supposed to ensure cadet NCOs are familiar with their duties. From my understanding, the NCOs' next-up in the chain of command (flight commander, OIC, NCOIC etc.) is supposed to tell the NCOs their responsibilities and duties. What I meant was why have a redundant position?

[Eclipse]

Of course......if you really think that it can be done by the commander and staff.....then why do we have any NCOs on staff at all?

Affectation and affinity with the military model.  CAP cadets rarely do it long enough or at the scale to get it right.

Which by the way I advocate......IIWG I would make Mitchell a pre-req for Encampment Staff.

As would I, Flt CC and Asst flt CC is all most Flights need, cadet officers who have BTDT, but unfortunately these days
many encampments and activities couldn't fully staff without cadets in the NCO grades.  It's not unusual for cadet NCOs to be
flight CC's or even higher, and we all know of the encampments that have had 1st Lts as Cadet CC.

It all comes back to retention - more people = larger scope = real opportunities for leadership at the appropriate scale.

[Panache]

(taken off of the PAWG Encampment Facebook page)

Sigh....

[Storm Chaser]

SNCO's do more then that....and they are more important to operations and plans then just representing the enlisted corps.

My post wasn't describing the role of SNCOs, but of Command Chief Master Sergeants, albeit in a very broad, generic sense.

The CCM [Command Chief Master Sergeant] advises, carries out and monitors the commander's and organizational policies, programs and standards applicable to the assigned enlisted force. CCMs are the commander's key enlisted advocate and advisor on readiness, training, professional development, utilization of the force, operations tempo, standards, conduct and quality of life. The CCM gives advice and initiates recommendations to the commander and staff in matters pertaining to all assigned enlisted personnel...

Of course, Command Chief Master Sergeants do much more than that, but I think that summarizes their role and responsibilities well.

There's nothing inherently wrong with having a Cadet Command Chief Master Sergeant position at encampment, as long as there's no special insignia that comes with it. That said, the question is whether it's a necessary position or not. I'm not sure that it is.

[MajorM]

Of course is there great harm even if it's not? It's not like it's costing anything, the kid is paying to be there.  If it gives a cadet senior NCO the chance to work closely with some top-notch Phase IV cadets, great.  Yes there is an upper bound to the number of staff you want lest the ratios get out of whack.  But adding that position versus another assistant PAO... Well one probably teaches more leadership than the other.

[Private Investigator]

(taken off of the PAWG Encampment Facebook page)

Sigh....

SIGH ... 

[ALH]

That said, the question is whether it's a necessary position or not. I'm not sure that it is.

And that decision should (in my opinion) be one of the many that the Cadet Commander, with thorough guidance from the senior mentors, makes early on, vice it being done because "That's the way its always been done!" (The seven worst words in CAP).

[Johnny Yuma]

OMFGWTFBBQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You people kill me.

Command Chief Master Sergeant is a reference to grade, not position. Command Chief Master Sergeants hold the position of Senior Enlisted Adviser. Change the concept of Cadet Command Chief Master Sergeant rank to the staff position of Chief Cadet Adviser. Put the most senior C/CMSgt at the encampment in the job and call it good.

[Garibaldi]

OMFGWTFBBQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You people kill me.

Command Chief Master Sergeant is a reference to grade, not position. Command Chief Master Sergeants hold the position of Senior Enlisted Adviser. Change the concept of Cadet Command Chief Master Sergeant rank to the staff position of Chief Cadet Adviser. Put the most senior C/CMSgt at the encampment in the job and call it good.

And you just refuted your own argument. There is no grade of Command Chief on the cadet side. It is a position.

[SARDOC]

If people really want, they can petition NHQ to make a "C/CCMSgt" insignia. Pigs would fly before it would happen, but there is nothing stopping them from making a petition.

To what ends? What would be the purpose?

What if they made it for Squadrons of over 100 Cadets...where it might actually be feasible to have multiple First Sergeants.  Like one of the units that are hosted by a school.  I know there aren't very many out there.  In Theory they exist.  It's about reasonable Span of Control.

On the Other hand, If a Cadet is Senior enough and had the leadership to perform at this level he should be taking his Mitchell and promoting in about two months.  It would be a very transient position...so why bother?

[Storm Chaser]

OMFGWTFBBQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You people kill me.

Command Chief Master Sergeant is a reference to grade, not position. Command Chief Master Sergeants hold the position of Senior Enlisted Adviser. Change the concept of Cadet Command Chief Master Sergeant rank to the staff position of Chief Cadet Adviser. Put the most senior C/CMSgt at the encampment in the job and call it good.

In the Air Force, Command Chief Master Sergeant (CCM) IS a position, not a rank. It's the equivalent of what used to be called Senior Enlisted Advisor. The name was changed and the star added to the chevron to bring it more in line with similar positions in other services.

If people really want, they can petition NHQ to make a "C/CCMSgt" insignia. Pigs would fly before it would happen, but there is nothing stopping them from making a petition.

To what ends? What would be the purpose?

What if they made it for Squadrons of over 100 Cadets...where it might actually be feasible to have multiple First Sergeants.  Like one of the units that are hosted by a school.  I know there aren't very many out there.  In Theory they exist.  It's about reasonable Span of Control.

On the Other hand, If a Cadet is Senior enough and had the leadership to perform at this level he should be taking his Mitchell and promoting in about two months.  It would be a very transient position...so why bother?

This position is not appropriate for a squadron, even a large one. We're so used to small squadrons with one or two flights, that in the very few instances of those that have enough cadets to fill four or five flights, some may think you need more than one first sergeant. That's like saying you need more than one squadron cadet commander. This position is NOT needed at the squadron, even at larger than average ones.

While I'm not convinced of the need of the position, I can see it working at a wing level activity such as encampment. There you have one first sergeant per squadron, so you could have a CCM for the wing (i.e. encampment). Even then, I don't think a special grade insignia (which is currently NOT approved) can be justified.

[Pulsar]

(taken off of the PAWG Encampment Facebook page)

Sigh....

SIGH ... 

yeah
I thought I saw an interesting C/CMSgt set of pins...they had a star where there is usually a diamond.

[Garibaldi]

(taken off of the PAWG Encampment Facebook page)

Sigh....

SIGH ... 

yeah
I thought I saw an interesting C/CMSgt set of pins...they had a star where there is usually a diamond.

INCONCEIVABLE!

[Panache]

C/1st Lt Neutron Star
Cadet Communications Officer

Did you get promoted recently?

Congrats.

[Pulsar]

C/1st Lt Neutron Star
Cadet Communications Officer

Did you get promoted recently?

Congrats.

Ya!
thank you