CAPF 341

[Extremepredjudice]

Has anyone used 341s for their squadron? Or have you heard about people using them?

How did it work out, and do you think it is a good idea to use them?

For both cadets and seniors, how does it differ? Is it more effective for seniors? Cadets? Or is it the same?

[SarDragon]

No such animal as a CAPF 341.

Horrid idea. Using them is a misplaced notion that carrying around little bits of paper, in fear of punishment for subjective offenses, will improve a cadet's behavior.

[Jerry Jacobs]

My squadron did it for a month a couple of years ago. Its a good way to keep track of the small things that a cadet does well and if implemented properly could be a very good system.

But I'm not sure why the seniors would do something similar. YMMV

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

We use AETC Form 341's, and have for years.

We use them as much for incentive purposes as for disciplinary...it's not like an MTI screaming "GIMMIE A 341!!!!!"

We use them as much, if not more, to record above-and-beyond performance by cadets.

[SarDragon]

You guys sound like some of the few who might actually be doing it right. The units I've seen using them weren't using them like y'all do, hence, by comment above.

[whatevah]

We tried them for a few months and really only used them for attaboys, and let them die off. None of the staff found them useful, even the person that initiated their use.

[Eclipse]

We already have the Form 50 for things which require review remediation, and along with that a national standard of its use.

I would say that if a 341 is going to be used, then at a minimum the process needs to be documented in a higher HQ approved unit SOP, because this is
exactly the kind of thing which is ripe for abuse, and the first time someone doesn't like the 'tude of the Flt Sgt pulling it, there's going to be a hazing or
similar complaint.

What is forgotten, or never realized by members when they see something (or remember something) from military trainers is that those RDC's, DI's, TI's, etc., have years of both personal experience and formal training as to the use of those processes - something woefully absent in CAP, especially on the
cadet side when cadets are training each other.

[coudano]

What is forgotten, or never realized by members when they see something (or remember something) from military trainers is that those RDC's, DI's, TI's, etc., have years of both personal experience and formal training as to the use of those processes

Ok i've been waiting for probably years to poop on this   No directed specifically at you Eclipse, i've heard this line dozens of times from dozens of people...  And it goes just as much for my opinion about cadets not being allowed to assign remedial PT as it does for 341's.

There are MTI's that are on their very first flight out of the training pipeline (i had one wiwabmt, and they gave us for about 4 hours to a "newbie" who wasn't even out of "school" yet, for a test drive) (you have to cut your teeth sometime, with somebody, right?)
and those MTI's make the same sorts of stupid mistakes you might expect out of a cadet.
And they have the same occasional lack of confidence in their command presence, which they overblow WAY further than even the most outlandish CAP cadet i've ever seen since I've been in CAP.

I'm not sure but I imagine an MTI is probably a 3 or 4 year tour, out of which comes training and lead up time.  And the longer you are there, the less likely you are to be "on the street" pushing flights, and more likely teaching classes or working in the office.  So it's most likely that the MTI that you have at any given time and place probably has 2 or less years experience or so.  I know C/CMSgts with twice that much time as an NCO in CAP.

The key difference isn't even age/maturity, because i've seen some MTI's do some pretty inane childish trash.  It's *quality* of training, (usually) two+ person integrity in execution, tighter controlled rules regs and standards, frankly a "we will stab you in the back, with a smile" culture internal to the corps, and whether you see it or not, a hawkish quality control and command structure upstairs keeping a careful watch.  And I sensed, from my pov, sort of a 'walking on eggshells' from the command office at all times, being very self conscious and careful (a good thing) about pushing hard, but not too hard.

Additionally, with regard to 341, it's not only an MTI that can pull a 341 at BMT.
I had and/or saw 341's pulled by the dining facility manager, bus drivers, workers at the mini bx, catm dudes, and the grumpy old men // i mean barbers, just to name a few.  And as someone else already noted, they aren't always negative.  You should see a flight of trainees, after about 3 weeks, get a 341 pulled for doing a rock awesome job at something like KP.  You'd think they were walking/marching back to their dorm on clouds (yeah, out of our way dirtbags, we're awesome! we wiped up a kitchen!  wooooottt!).  Of course in 3 weeks that is probably the first time someone has said the words "good job" to them, so it sort of makes sense.

The thing about a 341, is that they inject into your mind very early (like, right after you get off the bus after inprocessing), that a 341 is quite literally THE END OF THE WORLD AS YOU KNOW IT.  It becomes a behavior control technique, just like push ups, and to a lesser degree, yelling.  Granted, 341's can go back to your MTI and get entered into a tracking system, and they can hurt you at honor grad time, and they could even lead to a recycle (and i suppose, depending on what you established a track record of, maybe discharge).  But  not every 341 that gets pulled makes it back to the tracking system.  Sometimes they just pull the form, to get your attention and set you back on track, and then they just throw it in the trash after you aren't looking.

Within a CAP context,
a) i don't think we want, or need, to create that hyped up of an environment as to make something like a 341 effective
b) i don't think we can or want to have the hawkish level of control and supervision
c) i /certainly/ don't want the stab you in the back culture amongst my cadet leadership, and I would actually eject a cadet from the program for trying to instill that within my scope of influence
d) we already have enough stupid busy paperwork to do, without adding dozens of more slips of 1/8 sheets of paper flying around every which direction

So in terms of cost/benefit analysis, they are too much trash work, for essentially no useful benefit.  That's NOT a good trade of time, energy, and focus.  CERTAINLY at the squadron.  I could see it for an encampment, mmmmmmaybe.  But 1 week probably isn't long enough to usefully implement the program either.  You don't see 341's floating around in the day to day working USAF.  It is limited to BMT, and I guess 1st term tech school (though I don't think I ever saw someone get a 341 pulled at tech school... we were supposed to have them on us, again I would argue it was just a psyche out factor)

"best practice" general knowledge is that any sort of paper merit/demerit system is generally a waste of time.  Many people over many years have embarked on trying to implement them, and they basically without fail, just peter out over time, as people get tired of maintaining this artificial system, and then stop pushing it, and then eventually it just doesn't get done anymore.  Now, you can take years of experience as a lesson, or you can be one of those guys who has to learn the hard way, by doing it yourself

The far and a way better practice, in my experience, has been having people responsible for other people.  In my squadron, every phase 1 cadet is assigned under one specific NCO (call it an element leader if you want, but we don't).  This respects span of control so we don't overload the NCO.  That NCO _KNOWS_ each of his troops, where they are, what they need, what they are strong and weak in, and is supposed to help them use their strengths, and improve their weaknesses.  The only paperwork we use is (basically) a CAPF 50 when the cadet becomes eligible for promotion, or as a warning, six months since their last promotion, whichever comes first.  Airman becomes accountable to his NCO (the NCO is the one who initiates --or doesn't initiate-- promotion actions) and NCO becomes accountable FOR his airmen (if the airmen under you are flailing, then YOU don't advance, even if you check all of your boxes).  This creates a culture of "you only advance by making sure that the people assigned under you succeed".  Which is the "right" attitude that a cadet in our cadet program should have, and for my dollar, is the way the whole world ought to work.

[coudano]

oh and by the way,
i'm a senior member
and if /anyone/ tried to pull a 341 on me
i would probably fall down laughing
and that's a safety hazard, i could hurt myself falling down

[Eclipse]

I pretty much agree with all you said, but to this:

What is forgotten, or never realized by members when they see something (or remember something) from military trainers is that those RDC's, DI's, TI's, etc., have years of both personal experience and formal training as to the use of those processes

Ok i've been waiting for probably years to poop on this   No directed specifically at you Eclipse, i've heard this line dozens of times from dozens of people... 

Like everything else, there's always "new guys" at everything, and not every training instructor rocks, but...

Every MTI, RDC, DI, etc., is in the military, has been through basic training themselves, and has reached an NCO level of experience and authority.

Every MTI, RDC, DI, etc., has completed at least basic instructor training, is regularly evaluated by his superiors in regards to his ability to be an instructor, and puts his career on the line any time he does something "creative".

Few of our seniors, and none of our cadets, can say the above, and the unevenness of CAP training in basic techniques, combined with the
dependence on Cinema and MW3 as the primary handbook is the biggest risk with "off-book" techniques.

[AirDX]

Every MTI, RDC, DI, etc., is in the military, has been through basic training themselves, and has reached an NCO level of experience and authority.

Every MTI, RDC, DI, etc., has completed at least basic instructor training, is regularly evaluated by his superiors in regards to his ability to be an instructor, and puts his career on the line any time he does something "creative".

BITD, when I went through BCT at Ft. Leonard Wood, we had a drill corporal - which we found out later were BCT graduates that did very well, and were asked to stay back and augment the training staff, since there was a shortage of qualified DIs.  They got a week of training, pinned on corporal, and were sent to a BCT company.  Once the next cycle graduated, one  set went off to AIT, and the next stepped up.  A couple of guys from my company accepted the invitation when we graduated.

We also had a DI candidate with us for the entire cycle.  He had not graduated from DI school, and didn't wear the smokey bear hat.  Not that it mattered; we listened to his big mean ass anyway... and the drill corp as well!

So there are some exceptions to what you say, but you're mostly right. 

[lordmonar]

Six of one....half dozen of the other.

I don't know how pulling 341's could ever lead to abuse.

I don't like them...because a) I hated them back in BMTS and Tech School! b) "give me a 341!" "I don't have any sir!".....so it gets pretty useless soon.

In the militarty 341's are there as a tool to easily report good and bad behavior back to your supervisor (TI/MTI/STA/MTL).

In CAP....you should know who your cadets are and it should be fairly easy to keep track on the short comming/atta-boys on your cadets.

[ZigZag911]

Back in the '80s we used them at Basic Encampment; pre-encampment  staff training (senior & cadet) stressed that the forms were a training tool, equally valuable for positive reinforcement as well as noting deficiencies.

Worked well as a way of keeping chain of command (again, cadet & senior) informed, also tracking individual problems or high performance.

Of course, encampment is a situation with many basic cadets, and staff who don't know their basics or one another all that well.

Unless a squadron was really large, using 341 forms in a unit would strike me as creating needless paperwork.

[RogueLeader]

The good thing that I like about counseling forms is that it creates a powerful paper trail for any reward/discipline. 

[Extremepredjudice]

Back in the '80s we used them at Basic Encampment; pre-encampment  staff training (senior & cadet) stressed that the forms were a training tool, equally valuable for positive reinforcement as well as noting deficiencies.

Worked well as a way of keeping chain of command (again, cadet & senior) informed, also tracking individual problems or high performance.

Of course, encampment is a situation with many basic cadets, and staff who don't know their basics or one another all that well.

Unless a squadron was really large, using 341 forms in a unit would strike me as creating needless paperwork.

We used them in FLWG Winter encampment '11-'12... I got 2, both positive. Both for [IMO] dumb reasons, and the "really good" things I did got ignored.

In CAP....you should know who your cadets are and it should be fairly easy to keep track on the short comming/atta-boys on your cadets.

Apparently not in my squadron. Or they choose to ignore that.

No such animal as a CAPF 341.

Horrid idea. Using them is a misplaced notion that carrying around little bits of paper, in fear of punishment for subjective offenses, will improve a cadet's behavior.

Sorry sir, they said CAPF 341 at encampment, and I didn't go look on CAPmembers if it actually existed. My bad for not checking. 

The good thing that I like about counseling forms is that it creates a powerful paper trail for any reward/discipline. 

What form is that? CAPF50?

[RogueLeader]

That, or upon occasion I used a DA 4856, Army Counseling Form.  I just substituted CAP ID for SSN.  Worked Well.  If that didn't work, a threat of FM 22-102 did.   

[jimmydeanno]

"I don't have any sir!"

WELL THEN YOU BETTER GIVE ME A 682!

[lordmonar]

"I don't have any sir!"

WELL THEN YOU BETTER GIVE ME A 682!

Had a freind of mine in tech school....that made up a set of 642s because our Red Rope was always saying that! 

[coudano]

In CAP....you should know who your cadets are and it should be fairly easy to keep track on the short comming/atta-boys on your cadets.

Apparently not in my squadron. Or they choose to ignore that.

Yeah, very possible, if not flat out likely.
There are a lot of corners of CAP where people don't "get it"

[coudano]

"I don't have any sir!"

WELL THEN YOU BETTER GIVE ME A 682!

WIWABMT I first hand witnessed a trainee try the "I don't have one",
the MTI wrote one out with a pen on the palm of the trainees hand and sent him to cq desk at his squadron (lol)

[AngelWings]

Has anyone used 341s for their squadron? Or have you heard about people using them?

How did it work out, and do you think it is a good idea to use them?

For both cadets and seniors, how does it differ? Is it more effective for seniors? Cadets? Or is it the same?

My squadron used to. They worked pretty good. It felt good to be recgonized for having a great uniform or for showing abnormal excellence.

[ZigZag911]

Our encampment solution to "I don't have a 341" was to issue a supply to tac officers, who could provide to cadet staff on request.

Avoided cadet staff going overboard because they had a limitless supply in their pockets (they didn't) but kept the basics from working oldest dodge in the book!

[lordmonar]

Our encampment solution to "I don't have a 341" was to issue a supply to tac officers, who could provide to cadet staff on request.

Avoided cadet staff going overboard because they had a limitless supply in their pockets (they didn't) but kept the basics from working oldest dodge in the book!

I was not saying it was a dodge....I was just saying I can't get my cadets to remember to bring their CAPID, their books and a note book and pen each week.  The concept of having them to keep two 341's on them at all times.....just isn't going to work.

Now at encampment.....you don't run into that too often....except the cadet who has already got two pulled and has not had a chance to restock.

Either way......341's lead to a merit/demerit system......okay all well and good.....so is there a prize or a punishment at the end of the day/week/month?

[ZigZag911]

I suppose it could be used for cadet of the month or whatever...I still think it is overly bureaucratic for use at the local unit.

[HGjunkie]

My unit used to use 341's to keep track of cadets during meetings.

Notice how I used the past tense of "use" in that. Basically, it boiled down to me writing 3-4 of the things every meeting for cadets, which took a bit of time and kept me from actually watching over them like I was supposed to. It was okay for keeping problem cadets in check, but we don't have problem cadets anymore and we've been fine without them. The review boards are better than just using 341s, but the idea was to keep 341's in the file for the review boards. But, because of how small our squadron is, that didn't make too much sense.