CAP & CGAux: Cultural Differences

[Turk]

There have been a number of postings in this forum citing both similarities and differences between our nations's two armed forces auxiliaries. One interesting difference is that the Aux has declined to adopt ranks and titles of their parent organization. Yes, Auxies has functional titles of office, but terms of address are limited to "Auxiliarist," and for the high and mighty, "Commodore." Given the closer operational relationship with their parent body (plus no cadets to train or impress) this has worked well on their end. Another interesting difference is that Auxies salute armed forces regulars with grander insignia... but not each other.

This is by no means a greener-grass argument for changing CAP's traditions - these date back 70 years, and they have worked well. While both organizations could do with fewer peacocks trolling for salutes on base, most CAP members and Auxies are above that foolishness.

Device    CAP Title     Aux Title

None       SM              Auxiliarist
O-1         2nd Lt         Auxiliarist
O-2         1st Lt          Auxiliarist
O-3         Capt            Auxiliarist
O-4         Maj              Auxiliarist
O-5         Lt Col          Auxiliarist
O-6         Col              Auxiliarist
O-7         Brig Gen      Commodore
O-8         Maj Gen       Commodore
O-9         N/A              Commodore

[RiverAux]

Well, you have cherry picked one of the most insignificant "cultural" differences between the organization. 

As many well know, as a practical matter CAP senior member grades are ignored more than they are used when seniors are by themselves.  About the only senior member grade that I've ever seen consistently used by subordinates is Colonel when referring to the Wing Commander.  In actuality the CAP culture is to generally not use ranks even though they are required to by regulation.   

[Chief2009]

Yeah, after I changed to a senior member, I was amazed at how rank seems to mostly go out the window when the cadets aren't around.

[Eclipse]

^ Where do you guys get this stuff? 

That's not my experience at all, nor my expectation as a member and a staffer.  Also, I'm not sure the point of the thread itself.

[RiverAux]

Where?  Personal experience.  It has probably gotten worse over the last 10 years as the golf shirt has begun to dominate -- if you have no visible sign of someone's rank, its hard to use it.

Didn't say it was right, just the way things generally work. 

[Eclipse]

My personal experience - I address everyone by grade and last name, and rarely if ever use first names, even for peers and subordinates, and I expect the same in my presence, and that is regardless of the uniform worn, so whether or not I am in a golf shirt is irrelevant, I also disagree they are any more (or less) prevalent today than in the past.

If you set the tone and the bar properly, these things have a way of working themselves out.

As to "not knowing someone's grade" rarely do members interact with strangers on a regular basis, so this is an invalid excuse.  I know the grade and position of those I am working with, or I find out, usually by asking, or during introductions.

I suppose you can say this is circular, and doesn't happen when I walk out the door, but that does not seem to be the case for others whom I have
brought up through positions of leadership or influence.

[RRLE]

Back to the OP, there are 2 mistakes in it.

Mistake 1.

Yes, Auxies has functional titles of office, but terms of address are limited to "Auxiliarist," and for the high and mighty, "Commodore."

There is no title "Auxiliarist". Auxies are addressed either by first name (most common) or Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss. Sometimes, without official status, someone might refer to an Auxie as "Auxiliarist" but it has no official status in the Auxiliary Manual (AuxMan). Auxiliarist is a term that describes who the person is - not their title. The older term of endearment, circa WWII and the immediate post-war period was Auxiliaryman. An example:

AuxMan Promulgation Letter

PURPOSE. This Manual establishes policies and procedures for all Coast Guard members who are involved with the administration of the Coast Guard Auxiliary, including Auxiliarists, military, and civilian personnel.

A reason why military titles may be banned for Auxies might be found in this section of the AuxMan

AuxMan 2.B.21. Coast Guard Unit Support

While carrying out support missions, no titles of office or position shall be assigned, formally or informally, which imply supervision, direction, or any leadership role over any other Coast Guard member or Coast Guard Auxiliarist, unless directed in rare and urgent instances by the Coast Guard unit commander. This does not include watchstation qualifications. Only the Coast Guard unit commander may assign any unit duty, title, or responsibility (e.g., communications watchstander, boat crew member) to an Auxiliarist.

Mistake 2

Another interesting difference is that Auxies salute armed forces regulars with grander insignia... but not each other.

Every Auxie, regardless of the stars, bars, chickens or leaves on thars salutes all commissioned officers, regardless of the commissioned officer's rank. That means the National Commodore, the O-9, in the table, must salute the newest minted Ensign.

The AuxMan cite for the above.

AuxMan 12.A.1. Greetings

The hand salute is a long-established form of greeting and recognition exchanged between persons in the Armed Forces. Saluting is proper courtesy for Auxiliarists when greeting commissioned officers of the Armed Forces including National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and the U.S. Public Health Service (USPHS) uniformed officers who serve with the Armed Forces

There have been several attempts to change the policy to what the OP said it was, but all those attempts failed. The policy quoted above is from the recently (last month or so) released AuxMan.

[sandman]

AuxMan 12.A.1. Greetings

The hand salute is a long-established form of greeting and recognition exchanged between persons in the Armed Forces. Saluting is proper courtesy for Auxiliarists when greeting commissioned officers of the Armed Forces including National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and the U.S. Public Health Service (USPHS) uniformed officers who serve with the Armed Forces

There have been several attempts to change the policy to what the OP said it was, but all those attempts failed. The policy quoted above is from the recently (last month or so) released AuxMan.

By matter of convention, I will not salute a "newly minted" Ensign first. I also would not suggest that you do the same as it "muddies the water". I would allow the new Ensign to follow his/her training and initiate the salute if he or she chooses to do so. The Auxiliary Manual remains vague in that "saluting is a proper courtesy" but not mandated by law.

I have not seen any problems with the salute between AUX and CG at the various CG units I've visited. In my experience, almost all have seemed to follow the normal "rank" convention when initiating and returning a salute along with mentoring of new auxiliarists who quickly pick up on this time honored courtesy.

Again, this is just my experience.

[RiverAux]

sandman, if that Ensign has received the proper training he/she will know that they are not required or expected to initiate salutes to Auxies.  On the other hand, a properly trained Auxie will know that they are required to initiate such a salute. 

[Hardshell Clam]

When I was in the USCG Aux were elected to an Officer" position, or appointed to staff by the elected. Once you have a grade, you never have to take it off even if you are no longer in that position. Grade does not mean a lot, position does... Has that changed?

[RiverAux]

Nope.  But, essentially that is how it works in CAP too.  Your grade doesn't matter, just your position. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Every Auxie, regardless of the stars, bars, chickens or leaves on thars salutes all commissioned officers, regardless of the commissioned officer's rank. That means the National Commodore, the O-9, in the table, must salute the newest minted Ensign.

Or Warrant Officer 1.

WIWAAUXIE, saluting between Auxiliarists was not banned but strongly discouraged.

Frankly, the alphabet soup of office designations, red "A" v. blue "A," me with a piston ring and a half (Vice Flotilla Commander) being on a first name basis with a Division Captain (four piston rings), while being saluted and called "Lieutenant" by Sailors, Marines, Soldiers and Airmen caused a bit of cognitive dissonance with me.  There is a very zealous anti-military faction within the Aux who believe all military-related appurtenances within the Aux should be deleted (hi Radioman!), and a smaller, less-vocal element who support Auxies having such titles (rationale: the Navy Sea Cadet Corps and CAP).  I never did get all the office designations straight, especially when dealing with shipmates who were entitled to more than one (having one at flotilla level, and one at division level) and technically entitled to two (or more) separate uniforms!

The anti-military-titles lot would tell me that I should, on every occasion I was wrongly saluted and addressed as "Lieutenant," I needed to stop and "educate" them that I was not a Lieutenant, I was not entitled to a salute and that in future if they saw a CGAuxiliarist they would maybe not make the same error.  Others, with perhaps a bit more common sense and less pedantry, would just say "return the salute and greeting and go on."

I think the CGAUX system is overcomplicated, but they didn't ask me.

I have to go along with RiverAux about the cultural shift in CAP - back when I first joined, in 1993, it was always, as long as you were in uniform, "Lieutenant," "Captain, "Major," "Colonel."  My first squadron where I served for six years never used first names.

It was a bit of a shock to move to a senior squadron where rank titles were almost never used...in fact, there were a lot of squadron members whose ranks I didn't know because all they wore was the golf shirt, or a flight suit without insignia, when they bothered to wear a uniform at all.

Now I am almost surprised when another CAP officer salutes me or calls me "sir," because it is the exception rather than the rule.  When I first joined, it was the other way around.

[RiverAux]

WIWAAUXIE, saluting between Auxiliarists was not banned but strongly discouraged.

Still the case.

I know an Auxie who spent significant amounts of time augmenting on a cutter as well as a month on Deepwater Horizon and had the opportunity to run into hundreds of Coasties and was never saluted by anyone in the CG.  I think the CG, for the most part, knows the rules and "accidental" saluting is even less of an issue than between CAP and the AF (which is a "problem" which doesn't actually exist).  One of the benefits of having a close working relationship with your parent service.

I've been in the Aux myself for over 6 years and no one has ever told me to "educate" any misguided Coasties that salute Auxies. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've been in the Aux myself for over 6 years and no one has ever told me to "educate" any misguided Coasties that salute Auxies.

It wasn't Coasties; it was members of other services.  I never had that issue with Coasties.

About the "issue" of saluting viz. CAP and the AF...I tend to shy away from contact with AF enlisted/junior NCO's because I don't want to inadvertently do something stupid that would cause said Airman to make yet another complaint about a CAP officer.

[PA Guy]

There is an easy solution to the Auxie saluting problem.  When I augment or know I'm going to be around military personnel of any flavor I just wear the member insignia. Problem solved.  I augment monthly at a large CG Airstation and spent several wks assigned to DWH and never had a problem with wearing the member insignia.  As a matter of fact I advocate the wearing of that insignia to replace all the stars, bars, leaves and chickens.  Might not be a bad idea for CAP too.

[SARDOC]

There is an easy solution to the Auxie saluting problem.  When I augment or know I'm going to be around military personnel of any flavor I just wear the member insignia. Problem solved.  I augment monthly at a large CG Airstation and spent several wks assigned to DWH and never had a problem with wearing the member insignia.  As a matter of fact I advocate the wearing of that insignia to replace all the stars, bars, leaves and chickens.  Might not be a bad idea for CAP too.

Okay That got me thinking.  I'm not a member of the CG Aux. but if Rank doesn't mean anything like in Civil Air Patrol.  Why do we wear grade insignia?  In the rest of the world rank insignia doesn't represent seniority or development in the professional development program it represents authority.

[PA Guy]

Because we have always done it that way?  Or maybe it's because toooo many people in both organizations think it is somehow real and take it really, really seriously?

[Eclipse]

I earned mine, so did others here.  If you don't want to wear yours, don't, but knock of the "it's not real" nonsense.  It's 100% real in the
organization >I< belong to.  If we all worried less about other services, and just stayed in our lane, we'd all be better off.

I don't choose which uniform or insignia to wear based on a concern that some misinformed person might misinterpret its meaning, that's on them, not me.

[PA Guy]

Eclipse,

You don't have the creds to lecture me.  You need to get out more.

[Eclipse]

Please, enlighten me.

It's OK for you to denigrate the hard work of our members, but when I call you on it that's a "lecture"?