CAP Talk

While at the Region Staff College I met members from all over. Mostly all I heard talk about was ES this and ES that and Operations that. I talked to one guy who said they interview new members and they require they get a MP, MO, MS or some ES track. Talked to another guy who said at their unit they automatically enroll them in ICS courses.

I mean everyone isnt interested in ES. I like ES, but if I never flew a SAR mission or got called up I would be ok. I didnt join CAP for ES. I joined to work and encourage young people to pursue careers in aviation.

There is a culture in CAP that is heavily law enforcement and emergency management. It seems to me like CAP is becomming more of a "volunteer fire department or volunteer emergency management agency" and less of an auxilary of a Armed Services.

There was a suggestion of going to polo shirts and cargo pants similar to what police officers and EMT's wear. Again, wanting to get away from the military look.

The culture  is changing and CAP will loose some good folks if this continues. Does anyone else see this?

A large number of adults join CAP for the ES function. That's why we have Senior squadrons.

That does not mean we're less an aux of the USAF.

It's also not an excuse to go to golf shirts exclusively.

This culture, by the way, is not new.

Frankly, it is much easier to recruit adults for the standard CAP ES jobs than it is to recruit them specifically for cadet programs (or AE) work.  And lets be honest, a squadron does not need more than a handful of adults to run the cadet program while a squadron with a plane and aspirations to have a ground team probably needs 20-30 active members to be credible.  So, the recruiting demands to maintain an ES program are much higher than they are to maintain the cadet program. 

QuoteIt seems to me like CAP is becomming more of a "volunteer fire department or volunteer emergency management agency" and less of an auxilary of a Armed Services.

There are very few missions that CAP is doing now that aren't similar, if not identical, to the same missions we've been doing since the organization was formed.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 02, 2009, 04:44:36 PM
The culture  is changing and CAP will loose some good folks if this continues. Does anyone else see this?

Fly, you're seeing the "real" CAP.

A lot of senior members join specifically for the operational side and then get involved with cadets later (present company included).

The other thing is that folks willing to take a week off from their jobs, etc., are likely the more motivated
of our membership, with aspirations and involvement far beyond the unit level - those members are also
more likely to be fully involved with all facets of the programs, not just one side or the other.

For better or worse, you can pretty much jump in and out of the CP side of the house without a lot of preparation or understanding - not so with ES.  We have a lot of members that wear their non-involvement in ES as some kind of bizarre badge of honor, then complain when something like Katrina hits and they can't get involved.

Even if they never intend to don a reflective vest, getting new members exposed to ES day 1 insures they can't ever say they don't know or understand it.

well, it wasnt lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it. but I do remember about those days was that senior members didnt waer grey or maroon epulets. they wore metal rank on their blue uniforms. What i remember was we had a closer relationship with the USAF. We used to get rides on C-130's. We had unlimited access to USAF Bases. What I remember is that more cadets went into the USAF and more cadets learned to fly

So, maybe its not the organization it used to be, maybe its not for me anymore. These are the questions I have ask myself. What I also know is we hav a retntion issue we didnt have 20 years ago, So, you do the math as to why.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 02, 2009, 06:00:19 PM
well, it wasnt lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it. but I do remember about those days was that senior members didnt waer grey or maroon epulets. they wore metal rank on their blue uniforms. What i remember was we had a closer relationship with the USAF. We used to get rides on C-130's. We had unlimited access to USAF Bases. What I remember is that more cadets went into the USAF and more cadets learned to fly

So, maybe its not the organization it used to be, maybe its not for me anymore. These are the questions I have ask myself. What I also know is we hav a retntion issue we didnt have 20 years ago, So, you do the math as to why.

Comparing today's CAP, or really much of any similar organization, public schools, or even the federal government or military to anything in 1985 is going to be fraught with peril.

The world has changed a lot in...carry the two...24 years, and moreso in a day on 911.

We have retention issues, but our operational nature is not the heart of them, if anything that's a retention tool.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 02, 2009, 06:00:19 PM
well, it wasnt lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it.

I think you didn't see it.

ES has been a very big part of CAP, even bigger than cadet programs, for a VERY long time.

Quote from: Rotorhead on August 02, 2009, 06:48:58 PM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 02, 2009, 06:00:19 PM
well, it wasnt lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it.

I think you didn't see it.

ES has been a very big part of CAP, even bigger than cadet programs, for a VERY long time.

Scott,

I would and to not see the Cadet and ES side as mutually exclusive.  I see them as two growing spheres within the same organization, and even more so, necessary to the continued viability of CAP to the outside world.

Cadets in our unit can and do participate in ES where they can.  In fact, the ES function is a viable and attractive extracurricular activity for them.   I can also point to CAP Ground Team made up of a majority of cadets, exercises and actual missions where COMMs has a high incidence of cadet participation.

CAP's ES function is one of the main things that retains many cadets, it allows them to participate in activities that are "real world" and somewhat "genuine."  In a world where a 16 year old is treated, from their perspective, as a second class citizen...being given "real" responsibilities towards a greater good is a character and citizenship building activity.  For many, its the first time in their life they are taken seriously by adults.  If executed correctly, that alone can do more for moral leadership than a 100 moral leadership lectures.

QuoteCadets in our unit can and do participate in ES where they can.  In fact, the ES function is a viable and attractive extracurricular activity for them.   

I wouldn't have joined CAP as a cadet were it not for a friend of mine who was in it and was in on a missing aircraft find -- I joined almost immediately afterwards and of course we never had a mission the 2-3 years I was a cadet. 

Quote from: Major Carrales on August 02, 2009, 07:23:16 PM

Quote from: Rotorhead on August 02, 2009, 06:48:58 PM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 02, 2009, 06:00:19 PM
well, it wasnt lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it.

I think you didn't see it.

ES has been a very big part of CAP, even bigger than cadet programs, for a VERY long time.

Scott,

I would and to not see the Cadet and ES side as mutually exclusive.  I see them as two growing spheres within the same organization, and even more so, necessary to the continued viability of CAP to the outside world.

Cadets in our unit can and do participate in ES where they can.  In fact, the ES function is a viable and attractive extracurricular activity for them.   I can also point to CAP Ground Team made up of a majority of cadets, exercises and actual missions where COMMs has a high incidence of cadet participation.

CAP's ES function is one of the main things that retains many cadets, it allows them to participate in activities that are "real world" and somewhat "genuine."  In a world where a 16 year old is treated, from their perspective, as a second class citizen...being given "real" responsibilities towards a greater good is a character and citizenship building activity.  For many, its the first time in their life they are taken seriously by adults.  If executed correctly, that alone can do more for moral leadership than a 100 moral leadership lectures.

I agree with what you're saying.

I just don't agree with the idea that CAP "used to be" a cadet-focused organization, and now it is not.

Quote from: Rotorhead on August 02, 2009, 08:23:46 PM
I agree with what you're saying.

I just don't agree with the idea that CAP "used to be" a cadet-focused organization, and now it is not.

It is hard for some folks to understand that CAP can be both.  We have three areas in which we are to focus, thus, 100% given on each one is the proper perspective.

ES and CP are the sorts of things that can be measured in numbers, like saves, resources and numbers of cadets moving through the system. AE is a different animal altogether.

I find it a specious argument when people make the disingenuous idea that adding to one area subtracts from the importance of another.     

AE most certainly could be measured:

Internally:
1.  # of seniors passing Yeager (this actually is tracked on the commander's dashboard function in eservices).
2.  #s of seniors completing AE specialty track levels

Externally:
1.  Outreach activitites completed
   a.  school visits
   b.  public presentations
   c.  articles
2.  # of AEMs
3.  # of aE workshops
4.  AE materials distributed
5.  NCASE attendence

I have felt for a long time that all seniors and all cadet officers ought at least to complete GES training (which I think should be required for Level 1 or Mitchell), and, ideally, qualify as MSA.

My reasoning is that, especially in instances of natural disasters, folks come out of the woodwork wanting to help -- but it's too late at that point to take necessary training.

Maintaining currency as an MSA would require one mission every two years...not a heavy demand for ES involvement.

I also feel that every senior should earn the Yeager (perhaps as a requirement for Level 2 or 3), and become familiar with the cadet program.

Everyone has personal interests, and that's fine, but as one advances in rank & responsibility, a more thorough background in the total program should be expected.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 02, 2009, 10:03:54 PMI have felt for a long time that all seniors and all cadet officers ought at least to complete GES training (which I think should be required for Level 1 or Mitchell), and, ideally, qualify as MSA.

I would highly disagree with making it a requirement. Encourage, not require.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 02, 2009, 10:03:54 PMMy reasoning is that, especially in instances of natural disasters, folks come out of the woodwork wanting to help -- but it's too late at that point to take necessary training.

Let people know up front when they join what would be needed to help out in those situations. Not telling them is a failure in the initial stages when they join. Make it absolutely clear that training is needed to be able to contribute.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 02, 2009, 10:03:54 PMI also feel that every senior should earn the Yeager (perhaps as a requirement for Level 2 or 3), and become familiar with the cadet program.

Same as above. Encourage, not require.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 02, 2009, 10:03:54 PMEveryone has personal interests, and that's fine, but as one advances in rank & responsibility, a more thorough background in the total program should be expected.

I think personal interests are important in recruiting. Forcing people into things in which they have no interest could be a problem. Not everyone wants to be everything in CAP. As the old saying goes, a jack of all trades is a master of none.

Quote from: RiverAux on August 02, 2009, 09:56:10 PM
AE most certainly could be measured:

Internally:
1.  # of seniors passing Yeager (this actually is tracked on the commander's dashboard function in eservices).
2.  #s of seniors completing AE specialty track levels

Externally:
1.  Outreach activitites completed
   a.  school visits
   b.  public presentations
   c.  articles
2.  # of AEMs
3.  # of aE workshops
4.  AE materials distributed
5.  NCASE attendence

I knew I could manipulate someone like yourself to provide the information I was lacking in my post en re AE. 

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 02, 2009, 06:00:19 PM
well, it wasn't lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it. but I do remember about those days was that senior members didnt waer grey or maroon epaulets. they wore metal rank on their blue uniforms. What i remember was we had a closer relationship with the USAF. We used to get rides on C-130's. We had unlimited access to USAF Bases. What I remember is that more cadets went into the USAF and more cadets learned to fly

hmmm......I meet at an AF Base and have open access to an Armed Forces Reserve Center as well as a Hangar at a county Airport.  We have an Aircraft in which Cadets learn to fly.  We have a AF Reservist assigned to our unit, we have a Base CAP Liaison Officer.  We just had a c-130 o-flight 2 weeks ago, and have 1 more mid August.  We visited the AF museum 7 months ago at Wright-Patterson on the AF's dime, and spent the weekend there with transportation back.  We have a 60% Enlistment/Commission rate, with a 35% college/ university attendance.  We have had (in the past 5 years) 14 Cadets go to a Military Academy.  I along with the majority of the Staff have military backgrounds.

We have Army/ AF/ Marine instructors come to meetings to give classes monthly.  We have access to the firing range in the Reserve Center.  We are going Rappelling in Sept with the army National Guard. 

How much more military do you want my Squadron??  We also are all in AF/ Corporate uniforms, and only wear Polo's when we have Senior Staff meetings once a month.

PLUS we have been accident free for the past 18 years. 

You know what else we do........Emergency Services.  It is a CAP mission.  We get $$ from the County and State to keep a trained team on the ready.

We are so liked, we were volunteering on base at the Air Wing HQ, Medical Squadron before VSAF was announced.  We serve lunch to the Local National Guard unit on Drill weekends, and we host a deployment picnic for those members that are set to deploy.

PLEASE don't think all CAP units (or even all of CAP) are not like what your remember.  Things have improved since your Cadet days.  Face it, the Senior Members that you fondly remember were the cause of our move to maroon then Grey epaulets.  It was during the 1980's that many things happened that caused changes in the 1990's.

In the end, CAP is just what it was, a awesome program mixed with Aerospace, Emergency Services and Cadet programs.  We are much more better off today than in the 1980's, 1990's or even 3 years ago  ;)       

Quote from: Eclipse on August 02, 2009, 06:14:40 PM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 02, 2009, 06:00:19 PM
well, it wasnt lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it. but I do remember about those days was that senior members didnt waer grey or maroon epulets. they wore metal rank on their blue uniforms. What i remember was we had a closer relationship with the USAF. We used to get rides on C-130's. We had unlimited access to USAF Bases. What I remember is that more cadets went into the USAF and more cadets learned to fly

So, maybe its not the organization it used to be, maybe its not for me anymore. These are the questions I have ask myself. What I also know is we hav a retntion issue we didnt have 20 years ago, So, you do the math as to why.

Comparing today's CAP, or really much of any similar organization, public schools, or even the federal government or military to anything in 1985 is going to be fraught with peril.

The world has changed a lot in...carry the two...24 years, and moreso in a day on 911.

We have retention issues, but our operational nature is not the heart of them, if anything that's a retention tool.

Depends on the audience you are trying to retain. if you are trying to retain firefighters and police officers and EMT's then yes, Todays operatiions would suffice. But if you are trying to retain military types. Not so much. I was approached a few weeks ago about joining the US cadet corps. They told me it was more military than CAP and a lot of CAP members were leaving and going over to that organization.  A lot of CAPers are apparently doing that.

Quote from: Major Carrales on August 02, 2009, 07:23:16 PM

Quote from: Rotorhead on August 02, 2009, 06:48:58 PM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 02, 2009, 06:00:19 PM
well, it wasnt lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it.

I think you didn't see it.

ES has been a very big part of CAP, even bigger than cadet programs, for a VERY long time.

Scott,

I would and to not see the Cadet and ES side as mutually exclusive.  I see them as two growing spheres within the same organization, and even more so, necessary to the continued viability of CAP to the outside world.

Cadets in our unit can and do participate in ES where they can.  In fact, the ES function is a viable and attractive extracurricular activity for them.   I can also point to CAP Ground Team made up of a majority of cadets, exercises and actual missions where COMMs has a high incidence of cadet participation.

CAP's ES function is one of the main things that retains many cadets, it allows them to participate in activities that are "real world" and somewhat "genuine."  In a world where a 16 year old is treated, from their perspective, as a second class citizen...being given "real" responsibilities towards a greater good is a character and citizenship building activity.  For many, its the first time in their life they are taken seriously by adults.  If executed correctly, that alone can do more for moral leadership than a 100 moral leadership lectures.

Again, it depends on your audience. i work with kids in the inner city that have a great love for aviation. Now if I suggested to these kids that we go out to the woods and camp out and hike. They would have absolutely no interest. They are squarely focused on flying and becomming airline pilots. Nothing else.

Quote from: Spike on August 03, 2009, 03:34:50 AM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 02, 2009, 06:00:19 PM
well, it wasn't lke thatin 1985 when I was a cadet. maybe I just didnt see it. but I do remember about those days was that senior members didnt waer grey or maroon epaulets. they wore metal rank on their blue uniforms. What i remember was we had a closer relationship with the USAF. We used to get rides on C-130's. We had unlimited access to USAF Bases. What I remember is that more cadets went into the USAF and more cadets learned to fly

hmmm......I meet at an AF Base and have open access to an Armed Forces Reserve Center as well as a Hangar at a county Airport.  We have an Aircraft in which Cadets learn to fly.  We have a AF Reservist assigned to our unit, we have a Base CAP Liaison Officer.  We just had a c-130 o-flight 2 weeks ago, and have 1 more mid August.  We visited the AF museum 7 months ago at Wright-Patterson on the AF's dime, and spent the weekend there with transportation back.  We have a 60% Enlistment/Commission rate, with a 35% college/ university attendance.  We have had (in the past 5 years) 14 Cadets go to a Military Academy.  I along with the majority of the Staff have military backgrounds.

We have Army/ AF/ Marine instructors come to meetings to give classes monthly.  We have access to the firing range in the Reserve Center.  We are going Rappelling in Sept with the army National Guard. 

How much more military do you want my Squadron??  We also are all in AF/ Corporate uniforms, and only wear Polo's when we have Senior Staff meetings once a month.

PLUS we have been accident free for the past 18 years. 

You know what else we do........Emergency Services.  It is a CAP mission.  We get $$ from the County and State to keep a trained team on the ready.

We are so liked, we were volunteering on base at the Air Wing HQ, Medical Squadron before VSAF was announced.  We serve lunch to the Local National Guard unit on Drill weekends, and we host a deployment picnic for those members that are set to deploy.

PLEASE don't think all CAP units (or even all of CAP) are not like what your remember.  Things have improved since your Cadet days.  Face it, the Senior Members that you fondly remember were the cause of our move to maroon then Grey epaulets.  It was during the 1980's that many things happened that caused changes in the 1990's.

In the end, CAP is just what it was, a awesome program mixed with Aerospace, Emergency Services and Cadet programs.  We are much more better off today than in the 1980's, 1990's or even 3 years ago  ;)     

I am glad for your squasdron. I dont see that here very much.

Guys,

I am not suggesting that one mission be more than another one. they all need to be worked the same. What I am saying is the emphasis to me (based on other seniors I meet and based on the content of this very website) is a strong ES DHS CD focus. Yes, we did SAR  back in the day but it was SAR in support of the USAF not SAR and CD in support of DHS and FEMA. It was still Air Force Today we work for numerous alphabet agencies. Again we attracting the law enforcement and EMS types and not attracting the military types.

Also, dont misunderstand. i am not anti-ES. I am a MO, I am one checkride away from being a MP. I fly CD missions and I have an actual find under my belt. So no, I am not anti ES. I am just not wanting CAP to turn into a EMA. Many members want to keep it military and they will leave if it isnt.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 03, 2009, 02:43:15 PM
Depends on the audience you are trying to retain. if you are trying to retain firefighters and police officers and EMT's then yes, Todays operatiions would suffice. But if you are trying to retain military types. Not so much. I was approached a few weeks ago about joining the US cadet corps. They told me it was more military than CAP and a lot of CAP members were leaving and going over to that organization.  A lot of CAPers are apparently doing that.

I thought those people weren't trying to farm off our Cadets.  Where is that person, Lt Col Land?  If what you are saying is true, then I think I've got a bone to pick with him.

I don't follow your logic now.  You just said in a post that that the Intercity kids you work with have no interest in camping and hiking...only flying.  Why then would you pull your work out of CAP and into an organization that does not fly and that concentrates on the US Army which does encampments and teaches outdoor/wilderness survival?

Seems like you need to stay in CAP and reform it in your area to meet your needs.  Remember, all CAP is local.  That is why Squadron Commanders organize Unit activities and said activities are not planned at the Wing or National level.

Stick with it and chew back that frustration you probably get by reading about what people in other places are doing that doesn't seem to jive with the established realities of your squadron.  Just do what works and take what is good from everyone else and disgard what is irrelevant.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 02, 2009, 04:44:36 PM
While at the Region Staff College I met members from all over. Mostly all I heard talk about was ES this and ES that and Operations that.

My RSC was almost the complete opposite. It seemed 80% were Cadet programs.  Myself and the one other member from my squadron were the only people from a Senior Squadron. The main tie was everyone there wanted to progress in the program.

Quote from: flyerthom on August 03, 2009, 03:47:39 PM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 02, 2009, 04:44:36 PM
While at the Region Staff College I met members from all over. Mostly all I heard talk about was ES this and ES that and Operations that.

My RSC was almost the complete opposite. It seemed 80% were Cadet programs.  Myself and the one other member from my squadron were the only people from a Senior Squadron. The main tie was everyone there wanted to progress in the program.

Which likely goes to show what I maintained in an above posting, all CAP is local.  Some areas are big on ES others on CP, but that does not make the programs mutually exclusive.  Some areas are not allowed to take the lead in ES, others are all some places have.  Some places have strong Cadet Programs producing an amazing amount of results, other places CAP cadets take second place to Scouts, US Army Cadets or even JROTC.

People are just going to have to accept the idea that CAP is more than the sum of its parts...and that those parts must exist together.

Quote from: Major Carrales on August 03, 2009, 03:23:03 PM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 03, 2009, 02:43:15 PM
Depends on the audience you are trying to retain. if you are trying to retain firefighters and police officers and EMT's then yes, Todays operatiions would suffice. But if you are trying to retain military types. Not so much. I was approached a few weeks ago about joining the US cadet corps. They told me it was more military than CAP and a lot of CAP members were leaving and going over to that organization.  A lot of CAPers are apparently doing that.

I thought those people weren't trying to farm off our Cadets.  Where is that person, Lt Col Land?  If what you are saying is true, then I think I've got a bone to pick with him.

I don't follow your logic now.  You just said in a post that that the Intercity kids you work with have no interest in camping and hiking...only flying.  Why then would you pull your work out of CAP and into an organization that does not fly and that concentrates on the US Army which does encampments and teaches outdoor/wilderness survival?

Seems like you need to stay in CAP and reform it in your area to meet your needs.  Remember, all CAP is local.  That is why Squadron Commanders organize Unit activities and said activities are not planned at the Wing or National level.

Stick with it and chew back that frustration you probably get by reading about what people in other places are doing that doesn't seem to jive with the established realities of your squadron.  Just do what works and take what is good from everyone else and disgard what is irrelevant.

I never said the cadet corps folks were trying to recruit my cadets, I said they were talking to ME. Asking me to come over to their organization. never said anything about my cadets..

Thanks for the sentiment though. I will continue to forge ahead.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 02, 2009, 10:26:44 PM
I would highly disagree with making it a requirement. Encourage, not require.

I disagree. ES should be just as much a part of the Cadet Program as Aerospace Ed and the Leadership Laboratory.

CAP is 3 parts: The cadet program, AE and ES. A cadet successfully completing the program should be progressing in all aspects, including ES.

Quote from: Johnny Yuma on August 04, 2009, 11:32:02 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 02, 2009, 10:26:44 PM
I would highly disagree with making it a requirement. Encourage, not require.

I disagree. ES should be just as much a part of the Cadet Program as Aerospace Ed and the Leadership Laboratory.

CAP is 3 parts: The cadet program, AE and ES. A cadet successfully completing the program should be progressing in all aspects, including ES.

Except they shouldn't. It's stated in writing that ES is optional for cadets.

Also, some squadrons are stuck with NO ES mission. There are a few states which by law do not allow CAP to get called into a situation until a specified time period has elapsed (48 hrs in some cases). So the end result is, the squadron never gets a call, and therefore never trains the ES mission. Sad but true.

Quote from: Johnny Yuma on August 04, 2009, 11:32:02 PM
CAP is 3 parts: The cadet program, AE and ES. A cadet successfully completing the program should be progressing in all aspects, including ES.

Would you agree with the statement that "a senior member, successfully completing the program, should be progressing in all aspects, including CP?"

My cadets are interested in being on Color Guards and flying airplanes.

Quote from: jeancalvinus on August 04, 2009, 11:44:30 PM
Also, some squadrons are stuck with NO ES mission. There are a few states which by law do not allow CAP to get called into a situation until a specified time period has elapsed (48 hrs in some cases). So the end result is, the squadron never gets a call, and therefore never trains the ES mission. Sad but true.

Cite please.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2009, 02:33:04 AM

Quote from: jeancalvinus on August 04, 2009, 11:44:30 PM
Also, some squadrons are stuck with NO ES mission. There are a few states which by law do not allow CAP to get called into a situation until a specified time period has elapsed (48 hrs in some cases). So the end result is, the squadron never gets a call, and therefore never trains the ES mission. Sad but true.

Cite please.

I think it might be safer to say that some states do not have CAP as "first response" types. 

Quote from: Major Carrales on August 05, 2009, 03:03:15 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2009, 02:33:04 AM

Quote from: jeancalvinus on August 04, 2009, 11:44:30 PM
Also, some squadrons are stuck with NO ES mission. There are a few states which by law do not allow CAP to get called into a situation until a specified time period has elapsed (48 hrs in some cases). So the end result is, the squadron never gets a call, and therefore never trains the ES mission. Sad but true.

Cite please.

I think it might be safer to say that some states do not have CAP as "first response" types.

I would too, and in my personal experience, most of the time its a problem with either a gross misunderstanding by all parties involved or lack of proper contacts by CAP people.  That or the ever-popular "oversold and underperformed".

With things the way they are budget-wise, any state or agency that would off-handedly dismiss free, semi-professionalized, and self-insured extra hands is being unwise at best.

Regardless, though, the discipline, attention to detail, and general life skills that ES affords should be primary to any actual operational ability.  The fact that CAP is an operational asset in the grand scheme is a huge plus, but its also unique in the cadet universe, and should not be the defining reason to involve cadets in this type of training.

ES should be incorporated as a matter of course in the monthly and annual planning and schedules.  If it isn't viewed as optional, it won't be.

For every church, airport, YMCA, and VFW we meet in, there is a local "right here" opportunity to help someone in an ES role, whether it is preparation for, or support after, things that are wet, blowy, cold, or hot.

But I'd still like Jean to cite a state with a 48-hour prohibition for CAP involvement.

See how my thread talking how CAP is too ES focus just shifted to a thread about ES? ???

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 05, 2009, 06:35:21 AM
See how my thread talking how CAP is too ES focus just shifted to a thread about ES? ???

Just be happy it didn't turn into a discussion about uniforms.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 05, 2009, 06:35:21 AM
See how my thread talking how CAP is too ES focus just shifted to a thread about ES? ???

Huh????

You started a thread about ES and people are discussing why some aquadrons or even wings seem more ES than others. 

Depending where you "grow up" in CAP your perception may be dramatically different.  My CAP experience, even in the 80's was almost all ES.  After a 20 year absence it looked pretty much the same when I returned.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 03, 2009, 02:54:13 PMI am not suggesting that one mission be more than another one. they all need to be worked the same. What I am saying is the emphasis to me (based on other seniors I meet and based on the content of this very website) is a strong ES DHS CD focus.

Keep in mind that this ES/HLS/CD focus is the reason CAP was formed in the first place; the Cadet Program came along a few years later.

Mind if I ask which wing you're in now, and which wing you belonged to as a cadet?  The reason I ask is that in one wing I'm familiar with, ES receives almost zero emphasis among cadets. Thus, if you spent your cadet in that wing, your version of CAP makes total sense.   In the wing I belonged to as a cadet, ES was part and parcel of what we did. I had both my 101 card and ROP card within a month of joining at age 13.

Folks, just to clarify, I'm suggesting GES as requirement for Mitchell Award or Level 1 completion...in other words, bare bones basic familiarization with the ES program...no active participation required.

I really feel that senior members and cadet officers should actually know something about all 3 CAP programs.

I think an MSA qual would be nice, but that's not what I'm pushing.

QuoteKeep in mind that this ES/HLS/CD focus is the reason CAP was formed in the first place; the Cadet Program came along a few years later.

Hope some of the historians chime in of this particular issue. I have (had?) the original CAP Cadet Pre-Flight Study Manual, which I believe was published in 1942.

Good point, fireplug.  Was that manual the ever loving manila/light brown cover because my father gave me one from his old daze in CAP

Ya so how about folks??? Apparently AE was BEFORE ES!!!

Another thing...this thread....  it take alot more than what CAP can offer to be an EMA

It is A LOT more than taskings from AFRCC and 1AF  Have you folks not learned that from all your ICS NIMS courses??  Or is that  just Govt fluff??  CAP has not become an EMA, they merely support missions and taskings based on requests from 1AF, AFRCC, LE, and wait one.....  Emergency Management agencies.

CAP will need to come FULL term with itself.  CAP does not have a "professional" emergency management curriculum to support being an EMA.... again we support them.  We have a curriculum for search and rescue....errrr recovery.  We do not have a full curriculum in Emergency Management as many may think here.


So saying CAP becoming and EMA......FAAARR from it.  This stuff requires a degree in Public Administration and with all the newer curriculums (sp) out there....IT IS  ALOT more than Online testing that seems to be the norm in CAP.  Many members in CAP hold these degrees and have been working it. But the general membership is supporting EM missions....we are not the emergency management agency.   We barely make the definition of first response professionals.  We are professionals, but we are NOT EMA professionals.  Its alot more than damage assessment and handing out MRE's >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D

I wasnt sugesting thatCAP had become an EMA. I was merely posing a question kinda being sarcastic. I dont want it to become an EMA because if it did you would loose me as a member and others. Thats not why I joined CAP.

As for theother coments. I dont think the DHS existed in WWII. So I dont know if was originally founded for HLS, CD or ES. Tise agencies didnt exist back then. It was founded to support the war effort from what I have read. It was formed to support the Army Air Corps. Today we support cvilina alphabet agencies more than our military parent.

That is my concern. We are distancing ourselves away from the USAF and becomming closer to civilian agencies like FEMA and DHS.

Our role when founded was to support the air corps. Today our role is to support the AIr Force.

I guess the point of my post was more of a rant. I wish CAP emphasized things other than Mission this and mission that. I want to see more cadet flight training. More cadets going to academies. More Aerospace ed trips like we used to have. Thats all.

^ Actually our role before becoming official was not in support of the Army.  Even after founding it was "an Auxiliary of the Army" not the Air Corps.  It was one of many Army Auxiliaries.

During World War 2, we played much the same role as we play now.  Even though DHS did not exist, other agencies existed that CAP was created to support.  Notice the CAP symbols are very similar to Civil Defense.  You could say DHS and other agencies were a child of older agencies like Civil Defense.  Thus CAP has been doing what we always did.

If you don't like the ES part of CAP, that is OK.  No one is forcing you to start a ground team or participate on search missions, disaster relief or humanitarian aid missions.  Do what you want to do, be it Cadet Programs (which looks like what you primarily focus on), or Aerospace Education.

It does not matter what agency or agencies CAP sells its services to, we are always going to be the Air Force Auxiliary, with Air Force traditions, uniforms, and a Cadet Program.  Some parts of CAP HAVE TO CAHNGE, and MUST CHANGE because of our current situation in history.  We will evolve like every other organization in the US depending on the "climate" of things. 

I hope you don't leave just because we "look like a EMA".  We need members like you to help our future citizens be the best they can be.  That is why I joined, and am sure many others joined.  I also love to fly, and jump on any opportunity to take Cadets for their first ride in a plane.

I, like you have seen the change in the culture within CAP.  I know though that things will remain the same.  We will have Cadets, we will provide ES services and we will be a big part on educating people about Aerospace and future Aerospace (SPACE) subjects. 

Honestly I would love to see the Aerospace mission increase.  We need smart, educated and future forward thinking Americans.  That can only start with educating the youth of today (Wow......that is a catchy sentence I wrote...right?!?!).

       

flyguy

I concur that CAP ought to stay with the basic three that they are capable of.  Nothing wrong with SDIS and ARCHER missions

But decisionmaking on the ground should be what is in CAP's lane and if by chance we get approved by Congress to do more DHS/ HLS missions.....CAP had better be ready and in more ways than worrying about polo shirts, lame ICL's, and even more weak regs like 39-1

DHS missions and EMA missions require more than what we do and we HAD better be ready to step up to the plate for REAL training and when it comes to aircrews....EVERY State has their own NESA and even more competent instructors that are NOT GOB's and pick and choose who their fly buddies are

Still concur with AE, flyguy

Quote from: Spike on August 12, 2009, 10:44:19 PM
^ Actually our role before becoming official was not in support of the Army.  Even after founding it was "an Auxiliary of the Army" not the Air Corps.  It was one of many Army Auxiliaries.

During World War 2, we played much the same role as we play now.  Even though DHS did not exist, other agencies existed that CAP was created to support.  Notice the CAP symbols are very similar to Civil Defense.  You could say DHS and other agencies were a child of older agencies like Civil Defense.  Thus CAP has been doing what we always did.

If you don't like the ES part of CAP, that is OK.  No one is forcing you to start a ground team or participate on search missions, disaster relief or humanitarian aid missions.  Do what you want to do, be it Cadet Programs (which looks like what you primarily focus on), or Aerospace Education.

It does not matter what agency or agencies CAP sells its services to, we are always going to be the Air Force Auxiliary, with Air Force traditions, uniforms, and a Cadet Program.  Some parts of CAP HAVE TO CAHNGE, and MUST CHANGE because of our current situation in history.  We will evolve like every other organization in the US depending on the "climate" of things. 

I hope you don't leave just because we "look like a EMA".  We need members like you to help our future citizens be the best they can be.  That is why I joined, and am sure many others joined.  I also love to fly, and jump on any opportunity to take Cadets for their first ride in a plane.

I, like you have seen the change in the culture within CAP.  I know though that things will remain the same.  We will have Cadets, we will provide ES services and we will be a big part on educating people about Aerospace and future Aerospace (SPACE) subjects. 

Honestly I would love to see the Aerospace mission increase.  We need smart, educated and future forward thinking Americans.  That can only start with educating the youth of today (Wow......that is a catchy sentence I wrote...right?!?!).

Thanks Spike and you are right, I do love the cadet program and I like ES too dont get me wrong., But as far the culture change when I have so manysenior members caling me by my first name instead of addressing me by my proper rank  I am just not used to that. Its not an ego thing. I just like to be professional when in public.

Quote from: heliodoc on August 12, 2009, 10:45:13 PM
flyguy

I concur that CAP ought to stay with the basic three that they are capable of.  Nothing wrong with SDIS and ARCHER missions

But decisionmaking on the ground should be what is in CAP's lane and if by chance we get approved by Congress to do more DHS/ HLS missions.....CAP had better be ready and in more ways than worrying about polo shirts, lame ICL's, and even more weak regs like 39-1

DHS missions and EMA missions require more than what we do and we HAD better be ready to step up to the plate for REAL training and when it comes to aircrews....EVERY State has their own NESA and even more competent instructors that are NOT GOB's and pick and choose who their fly buddies are

Still concur with AE, flyguy

Thanks heliodoc ,but I still think you may have missed my point. I maybe wrong of course

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 14, 2009, 02:41:41 AMThanks Spike and you are right, I do love the cadet program and I like ES too dont get me wrong., But as far the culture change when I have so manysenior members caling me by my first name instead of addressing me by my proper rank  I am just not used to that. Its not an ego thing. I just like to be professional when in public.

First names have a situational dependence. When there are no cadets around, most SMs I know use first names in the local area. When there are members from different units/echelons, I see more rank and last name usage. A few exceptions include the Wing, Region, and National Commanders, unless prompted otherwise. I know a bunch of MIWG folks who call MajGen Courter by her first name, but I haven't been accorded that privilege yet. Someday, maybe.

WIWOAD, I had very limited first name privileges with officers, on a purely social basis, and knew the rules for doing so. Sadly, many folks are clueless in that respect.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 14, 2009, 02:41:41 AM
But as far the culture change when I have so many senior members caling me by my first name instead of addressing me by my proper rank, I am just not used to that. Its not an ego thing. I just like to be professional when in public.

Being in the public is one thing.  Being at your local meeting or even a "senior member only" event is another.  Customs and Courtesies allow for seniors to address each other by first name when they do not have cadets present.  When cadets and I would even say when "civilians" are present, seniors address each other by their grade and last name.

The use of titles, without a doubt, is customary and usually expected in the military.  However, it is not the only way to present a professional image, even for people wearing the uniforms of other disciplines.  We will look more professional through competent performance of duties than through the use of titles that mean little outside CAP. 

Back to EMA's, many of them refer to people by names instead of their job or ICS titles.  Some law enforcement, fire, and EMS folks use rank.  Most other players don't.  When we go out to play with them, I suspect they won't care about our CAP grade and might even be confused by it.

^I agree with that.  A lot of fire and LE operations, our rank means different things.  In CAP and the military, Capt or Lt is a dime-a-dozen.  In police work especially, Lt. or even Capt is a BIG SHOT.

Why does it make a diffeence if cadets are around or not as to wheather we act professionally by addressing each other by pro[er rank. I know senior members that feel like they earned their rank and want to be addressed as so.

Robert,

I agree withyou. rank inthe law enforcement has a differnt meaning thenrank inthe miitary but dont say its better. A military capt has earned it. Yes, I realize thatin LE LT's and Capts start at the bottem and work their way up andmost military officers come in as LT's but dont assert that just becaue of that that LE LT's are somehow beter than miitary LT's.  It may be different but neither is better than the other.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 15, 2009, 02:23:00 AM
Why does it make a diffeence if cadets are around or not as to wheather we act professionally by addressing each other by pro[er rank. I know senior members that feel like they earned their rank and want to be addressed as so.

Robert,

I agree withyou. rank inthe law enforcement has a differnt meaning thenrank inthe miitary but dont say its better. A military capt has earned it. Yes, I realize thatin LE LT's and Capts start at the bottem and work their way up andmost military officers come in as LT's but dont assert that just becaue of that that LE LT's are somehow beter than miitary LT's.  It may be different but neither is better than the other.

That's not what he's saying.

A police Lt will (usually) get more genuine respect amongst his peers than a military Lt because the military Lt may be a newly-minted butterbar who doesn't know anything, but a police Lt always has to work his way there...and the other cops know it.

Not better, just different, and treated as such.

Quote from: Rotorhead on August 15, 2009, 02:49:19 AM
That's not what he's saying.

A police Lt will (usually) get more genuine respect amongst his peers than a military Lt because the military Lt may be a newly-minted butterbar who doesn't know anything, but a police Lt always has to work his way there...and the other cops know it.

Not better, just different, and treated as such.

Incorrect assumptions all around.  My State appoints a State Police Commandant (a Colonel) and he or she may have never even been in LE before. 

It is a common misconception that new Commissioned Officers do not know anything.  Just because an Officer may be young does not mean he or she does not know more that those they lead. 

I would say that Police Lt's are usually political appointments instead of demonstrating knowledge skills or ability. 

See how we can all make assumptions about other groups.......

Quote from: Rotorhead on August 15, 2009, 02:49:19 AM
Not better, just different, and treated as such.

One critical failing of many a CAPTALKER is the inability to understand and apply the above phrase.  Be it in discussion of issues with other agencies or even between CAP and the USAF.

Many people seem to think that CAP is inferior, as in somehow "worthless," compared to other organizations from which we have come to CAP. (be it the Active Duty Military, an Aviation Business or Law Enforcement) The fact is that CAP is its own thing, with its own traditions and unique facets.

"Cookie Cutter" application of the policies of others without factoring in the situations of CAP (volunteers, time requirements, work/CAP conflicts, family/CAP balance and the like) will always lead to problems larger than the ones such grafting of other organization policies was intended to solve.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 15, 2009, 02:23:00 AM
Why does it make a diffeence if cadets are around or not as to wheather we act professionally by addressing each other by pro[er rank. I know senior members that feel like they earned their rank and want to be addressed as so.

As I said before, use of rank or grade titles is not the only way to act professional.  Around cadets, we push the military customs and courtesies.  When surrounded by adults with a job to do...it's different. 

It's not like our CAP grade reflects a chain of command, for the most part.  I find it a little strange if someone demands to be called by their title when there is no command authority attached to it. 

I am a squadron communications officer holding the CAP grade of 1st Lt, one of my ASSISTANTS is a Lt Col.  Most of my FRIENDS in CAP are Captains or better.  We respect each other's accomplishments and treat each other professionally. However, it's natural for us to use first names and somewhat awkward to insist on unnecessary formality.  Formal occasions are another matter.  Our titles do exist and should be recognized, but we need not get hung up on them.

I've seen military officers using first names in their work environment as well.  Not as common as in CAP, I'm sure, but not unheard of.

Quote from: Spike on August 15, 2009, 06:00:37 AM

Quote from: Rotorhead on August 15, 2009, 02:49:19 AM
That's not what he's saying.

A police Lt will (usually) get more genuine respect amongst his peers than a military Lt because the military Lt may be a newly-minted butterbar who doesn't know anything, but a police Lt always has to work his way there...and the other cops know it.

Not better, just different, and treated as such.

Incorrect assumptions all around.  My State appoints a State Police Commandant (a Colonel) and he or she may have never even been in LE before. 

It is a common misconception that new Commissioned Officers do not know anything.  Just because an Officer may be young does not mean he or she does not know more that those they lead. 

I would say that Police Lt's are usually political appointments instead of demonstrating knowledge skills or ability. 

See how we can all make assumptions about other groups.......

Where I grew up a promotion in law enforcement is definitely earned.  They must earn their chops before promoting, some may turn out to be lousy supervisors but that's only realized after the fact.  As Flying Pig pointed out, a Lieutenant or Captain in law enforcement may be big taters.  Every agency is different. 

All this discussion is a sidebar to the main topic however: CAP as an EMA.  Our role is changing somewhat. At our recent SAREVAL we were told flat out that we are moving into more photo recon and Homeland Security missions, as well as support of disaster relief activities.  That won't detract from our cadet or AE activities, but our ES focus will be a bit different.  Hopefully that doesn't run people off; there is plenty of meaningful work to be done.

Quote from: wuzafuzz on August 15, 2009, 12:02:21 PM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 15, 2009, 02:23:00 AM
Why does it make a diffeence if cadets are around or not as to wheather we act professionally by addressing each other by pro[er rank. I know senior members that feel like they earned their rank and want to be addressed as so.

As I said before, use of rank or grade titles is not the only way to act professional.  Around cadets, we push the military customs and courtesies.  When surrounded by adults with a job to do...it's different. 

It's not like our CAP grade reflects a chain of command, for the most part.  I find it a little strange if someone demands to be called by their title when there is no command authority attached to it. 

I am a squadron communications officer holding the CAP grade of 1st Lt, one of my ASSISTANTS is a Lt Col.  Most of my FRIENDS in CAP are Captains or better.  We respect each other's accomplishments and treat each other professionally. However, it's natural for us to use first names and somewhat awkward to insist on unnecessary formality.  Formal occasions are another matter.  Our titles do exist and should be recognized, but we need not get hung up on them.

I've seen military officers using first names in their work environment as well.  Not as common as in CAP, I'm sure, but not unheard of.

+1000

Well stated, and he beat me to the punch. It's a very situational thing.

As for the military (specifically USN), it is very common for folks to use first names in their own working areas. Outside those areas, or when dealing with "customers", then the proper titles are used.

When officers are in areas devoid of enlisted folks, the first names flow like the Colorado, with a couple of exceptions, like the Skipper, and XO. It's all a part of the culture.

Agreed. Yes, in my Guard unit senior officers call junior officers by their first names all the time but it doesnt go up that way.

That's understandable.  But for CAP, we're still civilans, even in uniform.  Therefore the ability to call each other by first names when in private.

Even this thread.... "Has CAP become an EMA???  has been hijacked to woorry about either uniforms or respect on the chain of command up and down and even woooooorrying about CAP member officers calling each other by their first names...

WOW

CAP an EMA ??    Not really.   I am going to get a bunch of EMA managers to read this forum, sometime and see what THEY think..  CAP an EMA uh huh

I suppose CAP would members would be woooried if Joe Schlichem, EMA, was / were to address CAP types by their first name and not their position/ rank / and title, too?  Would that send CAP folks on a disaster in to flurry if they were not addressed by their rank / grade?

How do these poste really related to EMA's anyhow??

Quote from: heliodoc on August 18, 2009, 06:55:21 PM
Even this thread.... "Has CAP become an EMA???  has been hijacked to woorry about either uniforms or respect on the chain of command up and down and even woooooorrying about CAP member officers calling each other by their first names...

WOW

CAP an EMA ??    Not really.   I am going to get a bunch of EMA managers to read this forum, sometime and see what THEY think..  CAP an EMA uh huh

I suppose CAP would members would be woooried if Joe Schlichem, EMA, was / were to address CAP types by their first name and not their position/ rank / and title, too?  Would that send CAP folks on a disaster in to flurry if they were not addressed by their rank / grade?

How do these poste really related to EMA's anyhow??

It started as a sidebar to the issue of perceived culture differences between ES and cadet only activities.  That grew into comparisons of protocol related to titles used by real EMA's.  A diversion, true, but not by much since many posts on that "sub-topic" tied it back into the original question.  That's how. 

We'll be better off if we appreciate the differences between typical military culture and civilian emergency services types. I think this has been a useful discussion.

Who mentioned uniforms?

No, CAP is not an emergency management agency.  But we do support them and that is either a growing part of CAP or a partial shift away from SAR.

Quote from: brasda91 on August 18, 2009, 05:37:21 PM
That's understandable.  But for CAP, we're still civilans, even in uniform.  Therefore the ability to call each other by first names when in private.

I guess thats the whole point of my original question. the culture has gone from an auxillary of a MILITARY organization to a culture of first responders. Therefore the people who join the organization have a different mindset than the ones who used to

All I am saying is a lot members view us as a pusedo military organizarion and they like that. If you take that away they will leave. In my area I have already ben approached by the USA cadet Corps and they are selling it hard. 

If CAP wants to be an EMA, thats fine, just let us know and make it official so those of us that like thew military aspect of can do what we need to do.

flyguy, we're doing EXACTLY the same sorts of missions we've been doing since CAP was started (with the exception of trying to sink subs).  We have always been geared towards emergency response and I suspect that is why most of our senior members have joined over the years.  They don't join just to be a member of a military auxiliary, they join because of what we do. 

Now, I do agree that the military aspect of CAP is important and I tend to agree that we probably have lost members due to the turn away from the military culture.  But, its not like we're developing a "first responder" culture in its place (whatever that means).

Quote from: RiverAux on August 20, 2009, 12:57:58 AM
flyguy, we're doing EXACTLY the same sorts of missions we've been doing since CAP was started (with the exception of trying to sink subs).  We have always been geared towards emergency response and I suspect that is why most of our senior members have joined over the years.  They don't join just to be a member of a military auxiliary, they join because of what we do. 

Now, I do agree that the military aspect of CAP is important and I tend to agree that we probably have lost members due to the turn away from the military culture.  But, its not like we're developing a "first responder" culture in its place (whatever that means).

Riveraux,

maybe we just come in contact with differnt people.

The majority of the people in my squadron have no interest in ES. I am the only MP in my unit. Most members in my unit want to help cadets and see them get their pilots license. Two of my members were disappointed when they saw members wearing golf shirts instead of military type uniforms. One member (who is 50 years old) was very gung ho about military customs and curteousies when he joined. He snapped to attention everytime a senior ranking officer came into the room. he has never addressed me by my first name in a CAP setting. (we do in private or ourtside of CAP though)

Another member joined because he never had the cahnce to serve in the military and he saw CAP as a way to rectify that. when he saw the laxness of members, he left.
So yes Riveaux, the people I have come into contact with did not join because of the ES mission,  They joined because of the military aspect of CAP. I joined because of the military aspect of CAP. Not cause I am a wannabe ( I am really in the military) I joined cause I felt comfortable with the members. We had a bond because we liked the same things. Thats why we joined.


A first responder culture means we are attracting people like police officer, EMS types, and firefighter types. We are attracting the retired USAF pilot types anymore. If youlook at most of the posts on this thread somehow the messages relate back to ES> For example I read a thread on here about cadet activities. Almost all the posts were about cadets being on Ground Teams (Thats ES) very few posts about other non ES realted cadet activities. Another example, I read posts on here about flying. Its always tied back to ES flying or DHS flying. Nothing about O rides or proficiency flying. Its mainly about Mission stuff. A thrid example. I read posts about assigning aircarft to squadrons. Its all based on ES and how active the unit is in ES missions. Nothing about maybe they have 15 cadets and 8 want to be pilots. Thats what I mean when I say a first responder culture. Maybe its just the folks onthis board and I dont see the bigger picture.

flyguy...I hear ya but I have to give you the "flip side".

I am a former Paratrooper and law-dog. I joined CAP for the ES mission, period. I have one hell of a busy life and I want to contribute to my local community and fellow pilots the best way I can, and for now that is the CAP. I myself do not have kids and really have zero desire to do much with the cadets.

Most of the people I try to get to join tell me "I really do not want to deal with the cadets" and I say "no problem just concentrate on ES". Sure they will HAVE to deal with cadets at some level, but that is minimal to be truthful on the ES side, especially if one is aircrew.

Does this make me "bad" somehow though? I have had other CAP'ers tell me so...and I simply ignore them. We all volunteer for our own reasons, none more important than the other.

flyguy, I just don't get what is upsetting you.  Are you wanting CAP members to spend most of their time talking about military customs and courtesies so that the military aspect of the organization is emphasized.

Of course CAP members talk about ES -- its one of the things we do.  That isn't mutually exclusive of having a military culture. 

Do you get mad at Army soldiers who spend a lot of time talking about combat tactics? 

QuoteAnother member joined because he never had the cahnce to serve in the military and he saw CAP as a way to rectify that. when he saw the laxness of members, he left.

Good riddance.  We're here to get things done not play soldier, which is what this person apparently was interested in.  Although I also prefer a "more military" CAP, it actually isn't necessary in order for us to accomplish our missions.  Quite frankly, the important parts of even the cadet program have nothing to do with the military stuff.  Our charge from Congress is to teach them about aviation. 

QuoteI read posts on here about flying. Its always tied back to ES flying or DHS flying. Nothing about O rides or proficiency flying.

Because there is not much interesting to discuss about o-rides or proficiency flying.  Get in the plane, follow the profile, land, go home.  Not very controversial. 

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 20, 2009, 01:09:11 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on August 20, 2009, 12:57:58 AM
I joined cause I felt comfortable with the members. We had a bond because we liked the same things. Thats why we joined.

In my squadron most--maybe a majority--of our members are former and current AD. Nevertheless, we're a senior squadron.

Your contention that only working with cadets is "military enough" falls flat.

Quote from: RiverAux on August 20, 2009, 02:05:38 PM
Good riddance.  We're here to get things done not play soldier

:clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

Quote from: Rotorhead on August 20, 2009, 04:19:21 PM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 20, 2009, 01:09:11 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on August 20, 2009, 12:57:58 AM
I joined cause I felt comfortable with the members. We had a bond because we liked the same things. Thats why we joined.

In my squadron most--maybe a majority--of our members are former and current AD. Nevertheless, we're a senior squadron.

Your contention that only working with cadets is "military enough" falls flat.

I hate when I double-post. Sorry.

While I'm here, though, I'd be curious to know exactly what flyguy wants.

We can't discuss anything ES related?

What do you want to do, flyguy? Drill?

Quote from: LittleIronPilot on August 20, 2009, 01:13:48 PM
flyguy...I hear ya but I have to give you the "flip side".

I am a former Paratrooper and law-dog. I joined CAP for the ES mission, period. I have one hell of a busy life and I want to contribute to my local community and fellow pilots the best way I can, and for now that is the CAP. I myself do not have kids and really have zero desire to do much with the cadets.

Most of the people I try to get to join tell me "I really do not want to deal with the cadets" and I say "no problem just concentrate on ES". Sure they will HAVE to deal with cadets at some level, but that is minimal to be truthful on the ES side, especially if one is aircrew.

Does this make me "bad" somehow though? I have had other CAP'ers tell me so...and I simply ignore them. We all volunteer for our own reasons, none more important than the other.

Whats up?

I am not suggesting you are "bad" because you dont want to work withcadets at all. The reason most of the people youtalk to about CAP are not interested in cadets and are more interested in ES is beacue generally we tend to associate ourselvs withpeople thatare like us or have the same interets as us. So of course all your froends will generally have the same interest as you. just like the people I associate with have the same interest as me. I hang around people thatare communityoriened and like working with youths. I dont hang out with cops or EMS folks. So naturally the people I associate with will like what I like and vice versa.

Again, all i am saying is I need to know the direction we aregoing. Lie yousaid we are a volunteer organization and if we are going away from the direction I volunteered for, I need to know. thats all. All organizations arent for everybody. Things change. missions change.

Quote from: RiverAux on August 20, 2009, 02:05:38 PM
flyguy, I just don't get what is upsetting you.  Are you wanting CAP members to spend most of their time talking about military customs and courtesies so that the military aspect of the organization is emphasized.

Of course CAP members talk about ES -- its one of the things we do.  That isn't mutually exclusive of having a military culture. 

Do you get mad at Army soldiers who spend a lot of time talking about combat tactics? 

QuoteAnother member joined because he never had the cahnce to serve in the military and he saw CAP as a way to rectify that. when he saw the laxness of members, he left.

Good riddance.  We're here to get things done not play soldier, which is what this person apparently was interested in.  Although I also prefer a "more military" CAP, it actually isn't necessary in order for us to accomplish our missions.  Quite frankly, the important parts of even the cadet program have nothing to do with the military stuff.  Our charge from Congress is to teach them about aviation. 

QuoteI read posts on here about flying. Its always tied back to ES flying or DHS flying. Nothing about O rides or proficiency flying.

Because there is not much interesting to discuss about o-rides or proficiency flying.  Get in the plane, follow the profile, land, go home.  Not very controversial.

I am NOT upset about anything. Sorry if it came out that way. I am just trying to get an understanding.

Iwouldnt saygood riddence to anyone. Its a volunteer organization. people have expectations based how it was sold to them. If theyare not met,then they leave. Since in my unit we only have about 5 active members It hurt US pretty hard.

Ok, ok. let me be clear. i amnot mad or upset about anything. I was merely trying to get an understanding. The trend  I see inCAP is going away from the reason I joined. So, I wanted to see if others saw the same thig. It looks like they do, so ok. i know how to decide if I want to continue inthis organization. thats all Iwas doing. You can discuss what you want. I dont care. I was just gaging. Thanks.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 20, 2009, 08:56:32 PM

Again, all i am saying is I need to know the direction we aregoing. Lie yousaid we are a volunteer organization and if we are going away from the direction I volunteered for, I need to know. thats all. All organizations arent for everybody. Things change. missions change.

What direction, specifically, did you volunteer for? So far, all you've said is you want a more "military" organization.

What did you expect to do in such an organization?

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 20, 2009, 08:58:38 PM
I wouldnt say good riddence to anyone. Its a volunteer organization.

I would. If they are expecting something other than what CAP is, the they shouldn't be in the organization. Maybe there's one that fits what they want to do.

CAP is what it is, so if you want to volunteer to be a member, great. If not--that's your choice. As I have said before (and repeatedly) I'd rather have 5 members who want to be here and will help fulfill the mission than 25 who aren't satisfied and want to do something else.

Quote from: Rotorhead on August 20, 2009, 09:07:00 PM
I would. If they are expecting something other than what CAP is, the they shouldn't be in the organization. Maybe there's one that fits what they want to do.

CAP is what it is, so if you want to volunteer to be a member, great. If not--that's your choice. As I have said before (and repeatedly) I'd rather have 5 members who want to be here and will help fulfill the mission than 25 who aren't satisfied and want to do something else.

+1 - Far too many people read the brochures, then misinterpret what CAP is and grumble about it until they quit (or worse, don't).  There's lots of volunteer need out there, so there's no reason to expect CAP to walk outside its mission or try and "be all things to all men".

We have steered away from those "glitzy" brochures.

They barely reflect reality.  We tell the new prospective members to check it out for a month before even making a decision. 

Brochures......truly lack reality

AND where we are from...

We tell them prospects what true EMA's are and what SUPPORT functions CAP contributes to and what CAP's contributions are to said EMA's when requested

We try not get the people confused... CAP ..not a true first responder organization

EMA's ....coordinating function amongst all community players based on LEOP's and coordination with community leaders and assets to include volunteers and paid officials and first response orgs, based on really simple explanations.

Again we don't try to sell what CAP can not truly do

Well, guess you'll be saying goodbye to me to then.

I joined CAP when I was 15 years old and have been a financial member ever since. I am in an inner city squadron where most of our members are concerned about our youth and developing them into good productive citizens. I know what the program did  for me. And I believe in it.

On second thought I am going to take Riveraux's advice

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 21, 2009, 03:02:42 AM
Well, guess you'll be saying goodbye to me to then.

I joined CAP when I was 15 years old and have been a financial member ever since. I am in an inner city squadron where most of our members are concerned about our youth and developing them into good productive citizens. I know what the program did  for me. And I believe in it.

CAP can still be that, and more.  Just because there are different avenues to choose from doesn't mean people have to run away.  Every squadron has its own personality, within limits.  I've known people who changed squadrons to find a better fit and it worked well for them.  Find what works for you, but discovering new things about CAP doesn't mean it has changed missions dramatically.

Edited to fix a typo.

CAP, at the local unit level, will go in whatever direction the members take it. If they have an ES interest, it will go that way. If there are cadets, it will go that way, and perhaps, but not necessarily, have an added ES flavor. Your unit will go wherever you and the other SMs take it, within the three missions.

CAP, at the national level, will still have the three traditional missions, with some additional work in the DHS area, as the AF sees fit.

Quote from: SarDragon on August 21, 2009, 06:44:24 AM
CAP, at the local unit level, will go in whatever direction the members take it.

...the commander steers it.

If the members are "taking it",  that means the commander is letting it drift (all too common in CAP).

I was speaking of the members as a whole. If the rank and file folks don't like where the unit is going, they will either work within the unit to change it, complain to the next higher echelon if justified, or vote with their feet. In any event, the unit will change.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 21, 2009, 03:02:42 AM
I am in an inner city squadron where most of our members are concerned about our youth and developing them into good productive citizens. I know what the program did  for me. And I believe in it.

Why not get them involved in one of our three primary missions, then? Emergency Services work gives cadets something specific to do.

Nothing sticks in the mind of a teenager more than the time he helped save a life, or protect property in a storm, or whatever.

I believe you are doing your cadets a disservice if you do not expose them to the ES mission. It would also do a lot more for retention and recruiting than drilling or doing AE classes all the time.

Most of the cadets I have ever met said taking part in the ES mission was the coolest part of being in CAP.

Quote from: Rotorhead on August 22, 2009, 02:40:09 AM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 21, 2009, 03:02:42 AM
I am in an inner city squadron where most of our members are concerned about our youth and developing them into good productive citizens. I know what the program did  for me. And I believe in it.

Why not get them involved in one of our three primary missions, then? Emergency Services work gives cadets something specific to do.

Nothing sticks in the mind of a teenager more than the time he helped save a life, or protect property in a storm, or whatever.

I believe you are doing your cadets a disservice if you do not expose them to the ES mission. It would also do a lot more for retention and recruiting than drilling or doing AE classes all the time.

Most of the cadets I have ever met said taking part in the ES mission was the coolest part of being in CAP.

We are involved in one of the primary missions of CAP. We have a Color Guard. We teach flying. i have asked the cadets about stating a ground team andnone of them were interested. I am a former GTL. I am currently a MO< and almost a MP. I dont disslike ES. you misunderstand. I work with CD. Heck, I want to fly the GA-8 someday

Quote from: wuzafuzz on August 21, 2009, 03:40:17 AM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 21, 2009, 03:02:42 AM
Well, guess you'll be saying goodbye to me to then.

I joined CAP when I was 15 years old and have been a financial member ever since. I am in an inner city squadron where most of our members are concerned about our youth and developing them into good productive citizens. I know what the program did  for me. And I believe in it.

CAP can still be that, and more.  Just because there are different avenues to choose from doesn't mean people have to run away.  Every squadron has its own personality, within limits.  I've known people who changed squadrons to find a better fit and it worked well for them.  Find what works for you, but discovering new things about CAP doesn't mean it has changed missions dramatically.

Edited to fix a typo.

This is true. I guess I have discovered something I hadnt seen before. To be honset. i dont like it. And so I thought maybe CAP isnt for me anymore. But I do like my cadets and I like my ES as well.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 23, 2009, 02:11:24 AM

Quote from: Rotorhead on August 22, 2009, 02:40:09 AM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 21, 2009, 03:02:42 AM
I am in an inner city squadron where most of our members are concerned about our youth and developing them into good productive citizens. I know what the program did  for me. And I believe in it.

Why not get them involved in one of our three primary missions, then? Emergency Services work gives cadets something specific to do.

Nothing sticks in the mind of a teenager more than the time he helped save a life, or protect property in a storm, or whatever.

I believe you are doing your cadets a disservice if you do not expose them to the ES mission. It would also do a lot more for retention and recruiting than drilling or doing AE classes all the time.

Most of the cadets I have ever met said taking part in the ES mission was the coolest part of being in CAP.

We are involved in one of the primary missions of CAP. We have a Color Guard. We teach flying. i have asked the cadets about stating a ground team andnone of them were interested. I am a former GTL. I am currently a MO< and almost a MP. I dont disslike ES. you misunderstand. I work with CD. Heck, I want to fly the GA-8 someday

Wow, cadets that don't want to do ES?

You know, units are not supposed to pick and choose which of the 3 primary missions they undertake; they are supposed to support ALL of them.

My cadets arent outdoors people. They have clear set golas in life. Most (not all) of them already know they want to be pilots when they grow up.

I didnt choose to focu on anything. Its what the cadets want. We dont have the assets to do a ground team anyway. Who is going to go out to the field withthem? We have no DF equipment. We have no Squadron van. We barely have BDU's for all the cadets. They dont have any overnight camping gear. And basically they have no interest. How is that my fault? What we do have is pilots wiling to share our knowledge withthem. What we do have is a Army Captain willing to share D&C and color Guard stuff with them.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 23, 2009, 11:59:57 PM
My cadets arent outdoors people. They have clear set golas in life. Most (not all) of them already know they want to be pilots when they grow up.

I didnt choose to focus on anything. Its what the cadets want. We dont have the assets to do a ground team anyway. Who is going to go out to the field withthem? We have no DF equipment. We have no Squadron van. We barely have BDU's for all the cadets. They dont have any overnight camping gear. And basically they have no interest. How is that my fault? What we do have is pilots wiling to share our knowledge with them. What we do have is a Army Captain willing to share D&C and color Guard stuff with them.

Ididnt mean for this to turn into a discussion of weather we should focus on ES or not. The point of the thread was to gage what others think about CAP turning into an EMA organization. The bulk members that visit captalk.net are ES people. So the replies have been sorted turned that way.

I was disgruntled and someone had mentioned Ishould quit CAP if I didnt like it. And for a minute it crossed my mind. But then I went to a meeting and realized that I am making a difference in the lives of young people.  And that is what is important.

My unit is a city unit. They are not the kinds of folks that go camping or rucking> can I do that? Heck yeah. been doing it for 20 years and getting paid for it.  But thats not the interests of my members. They would rather hang out at anairport and talk about flying then go to the field and I am ok with that.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 24, 2009, 12:07:47 AM
My unit is a city unit.

Fly,

I think that this may be where some of these members do not comprehend your view.  You live in the asphalt jungle.  Other members on here may live in the country and don't think "city" life.  This may be exactly why you don't have the ES equipment others of us have.  I don't agree with you not having a van.  Work on changing that.  A lot of times we relate ES to the "field".  Just remember, you can still have a military atmosphere in your unit and still contribute to the community.  If your Cadets want to do the flying stuff, great!  Run with it!  I would not try to push my Cadets to do things they are not interested in.

Quote from: brasda91 on August 28, 2009, 09:50:10 PM

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 24, 2009, 12:07:47 AM
My unit is a city unit.

Fly,

I think that this may be where some of these members do not comprehend your view.  You live in the asphalt jungle.  Other members on here may live in the country and don't think "city" life.  This may be exactly why you don't have the ES equipment others of us have.  I don't agree with you not having a van.  Work on changing that.  A lot of times we relate ES to the "field".  Just remember, you can still have a military atmosphere in your unit and still contribute to the community.  If your Cadets want to do the flying stuff, great!  Run with it!  I would not try to push my Cadets to do things they are not interested in.

I have only been a member of "city" units in my CAP career.  When we are tasked for a SAR or DR mission, we drive to the scene.

You don't need to live in  the "country" to do SAR. We drive a couple of hours to train.

This idea that we'd "push the cadets" is wrong. CAP has three primary missions, and ES is one of them. When people join, they need to understand that units are supposed to be supporting all three missions. If they don't like what CAP is about, then they shouldn't join.

Making CAP into a flying club is wrong, whether it's done by seniors or cadets.

I hope this dioenst get me in any trouble but let me tell you about our "van" situation.

we requested one and was told that becaue we meet in a "high risk" neighborhood, the WWing wil not give us a van. we had one like 22 years ago and it was vandalised . Igues Wing hadnt forgotten about that.

Yes, I agree that we can do ES stuff as well. Again, you giys act like its me pushig the cadets to do something. Iam an Infatry officer. Ihave absolutely no problem going to the filed. The cadets have said they dont want to. So, lets get them FLM or UDF qualified. No problem.

Again, the point is like what Dillworht said,I and man of my senior members prefer to have a "military" atmosphere  and if the heads of CAP want to go in another direction that is their right to do so, just lt us know so we can make membership decision.

Ok, check this out. This is so going to contrasict my post. But Iwas invloved in a missionlast night and I LOVED IT. It made me feel like Iam doing something good in CAP. so there

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 29, 2009, 01:49:03 AM
I hope this dioenst get me in any trouble but let me tell you about our "van" situation.

we requested one and was told that becaue we meet in a "high risk" neighborhood, the WWing wil not give us a van. we had one like 22 years ago and it was vandalised . Igues Wing hadnt forgotten about that.

Yes, I agree that we can do ES stuff as well. Again, you giys act like its me pushig the cadets to do something. Iam an Infatry officer. Ihave absolutely no problem going to the filed. The cadets have said they dont want to. So, lets get them FLM or UDF qualified. No problem.

Again, the point is like what Dillworht said,I and man of my senior members prefer to have a "military" atmosphere  and if the heads of CAP want to go in another direction that is their right to do so, just lt us know so we can make membership decision.

Ok, check this out. This is so going to contrasict my post. But Iwas invloved in a missionlast night and I LOVED IT. It made me feel like Iam doing something good in CAP. so there

You will find, my friend, that there is a certain amount of motivation and a bit of pride in accomplishing an ES mission.  I have long told you that such activities provide a type of motivation to some cadets that proves to develop within them a sort of "drive" that mere cadet programs do not.

I would suggest you approach cadet ES from the position I do, as an extracurricular one.  Find a small group of your cadets that wish to do it (force no one) and little by little develop them into your ES function.  Encourage all to participate and focus on those that do.  As an Infantry Officer you can bring valued insight.

Pitch in for the resources and "build" anything they won't send you.  You will find that if the cadets feel as if they are part of the building process they will really back it.

As for a military atmosphere, remember what I have been saying on here for a while...ALL CAP IS LOCAL.  You develop the culture of your unit.  Work within the regs and create what you want.  Newbies will just have to conform to your established culture or find elsewhere to do their "thing."

As for contradicting your previous post...all people reserve the right to redefine their thoughts and beliefs.  In acknowledging what you have you have shown a type of character that is lost in our times.  These days many people simply lack the ability and desire "fess up" to their changing positions and sort of "sneak" away from one position and maintain they believed the new position all along.

In demonstrating you have had a change of position, you accept the fact that you maintain strong convictions not easily changed.   

Thanks Major, and you are right.  ;D

Actually though, I didnt really "change" my position. I have never said I didnt like ES. When I was a cadet I was a GTM. As a younger Senior member, I was a GTL beforee al this SQTR stiff came about. So I have had my share of CAP field time. Never said I didnt like it. I did enjoy it. I just dont think its the primary function for cadest or the number one mission of CAP.

I want a CAP that has military customs in it. After reading the National Board minutes apparently the USAF wants that as well

Can someone please tell me what exactly a "EMA" is? I work as a full time paid AEMT, and I have never ever heard this term outside of CAPTalk.

Is this some new NIMS buzzword that doesn't really mean anything in the real world?

Quote from: JThemann on September 02, 2009, 03:31:35 PM
Can someone please tell me what exactly a "EMA" is? I work as a full time paid AEMT, and I have never ever heard this term outside of CAPTalk.

Is this some new NIMS buzzword that doesn't really mean anything in the real world?

Emergency Management Agency

Here's an example: http://www.yorkcountyme.gov/contentDetail.aspx?cityTopic=774&CityContentID=5437&expand=1

Quote from: flyguy06 on September 01, 2009, 05:36:14 AM
Actually though, I didnt really "change" my position. I have never said I didnt like ES. When I was a cadet I was a GTM. As a younger Senior member, I was a GTL beforee al this SQTR stiff came about. So I have had my share of CAP field time. Never said I didnt like it. I did enjoy it. I just dont think its the primary function for cadest or the number one mission of CAP.

I want a CAP that has military customs in it. After reading the National Board minutes apparently the USAF wants that as well

Doing ES does not keep you from also observing military C&Cs.

Not a NIMS buzzword

Been around awhile replacing State, County, or local Civil Defense offices of the 1940's thru 1973 when Office of Civil Defense was handed off from the US Army to FEMA.

So how is it anyone can confuse a EMC with what CAP does?

JT

Don't know........terminology I would suppose.  But remember CAP supports the EMA's when requested, they are NOT and EMA.  An EMA is a far ranging agency that works with communities to organize resources through all guv agencies and volunteer organizations during time of disaster.

Some communities vets service reps are dual hatted as emergency managers.  Many communities across the US have finally found out the valuable service the EMA's do AFTER 9/11.  For lack of better words, a rebirth of the positions AND some overgrowth of DHS and other agencies requiring training for future disasters.  CAP as well as volunteers across the nation had a hard time wrapping their heads around the NIMS and ICS in its earlier years and some STILL have a hard time with it.   Imagine the emergency manager who has to deal with all of the agencies and training.

So again CAP supports the EMA's... they are NOT an EMA

Quote from: JThemann on September 02, 2009, 03:43:47 PM
So how is it anyone can confuse a EMC with what CAP does?

EMC?

I don't think anyone is confusing anything - CAP works with and for EMA's all over the country.  I sit on two different EMA boards and participate in training and offer resources when needed.

Its been my experience that the use of EMA's tends to increase in inverse proportion to the size of the city because EMA's pool resources. 

I wasnt sugeesting CAP was an EMA. It was a metephor. I said it seems likew e are becomming a EMA "like" organization. Meaning the members have an "EMA" mindset. meaning they want to wear polo shirt s and cargo pants as opposed to military uniforms. They want to do away with military uniforms and military customs and curteousies. They would prefer to call each other Bill and Mike as opposed to MAJ Smith and Capt Louis. They walk around with their hands in their pockets.

Thats what I mean by an EMA like organization Not an EMA organization. Frankly we are getting away from everything military becomming more "civilian" I even read a proposal to elect commanders as opposed to appoint them. Again, thats a very "civilian" mindset. And the USAF didnt like that idea

Quote from: flyguy06 on September 02, 2009, 07:49:07 PM
I wasnt sugeesting CAP was an EMA. It was a metephor. I said it seems likew e are becomming a EMA "like" organization. Meaning the members have an "EMA" mindset. meaning they want to wear polo shirt s and cargo pants as opposed to military uniforms. They want to do away with military uniforms and military customs and curteousies. They would prefer to call each other Bill and Mike as opposed to MAJ Smith and Capt Louis. They walk around with their hands in their pockets.

Thats what I mean by an EMA like organization Not an EMA organization. Frankly we are getting away from everything military becomming more "civilian" I even read a proposal to elect commanders as opposed to appoint them. Again, thats a very "civilian" mindset. And the USAF didnt like that idea

Fly, you really need to separate your local perception from national reality.
CAP ES operations and military demeanor and courtesies are by no means mutually exclusive.

That proposal was here, it was dead-air-filling nonsense.

The practical reality is that the majority of ES in this country is performed by civil agencies, supplemented by the military and related agencies when needed. If we want to work and play well with these customers, we have to adjust our operations and demeanor to be a good-fit partner, not a PITA.  If that means dialing down the FMJ a little when FEMA or the local PD/FD is in the room, so be it.  That doesn't mean we're abandoning our military heritage, or that things shouldn't be done properly every time else or when we are playing by ourselves.

Quote from: flyguy06 on September 02, 2009, 07:49:07 PM
They would prefer to call each other Bill and Mike as opposed to MAJ Smith and Capt Louis.

As has been stated many times on this board, there are a lot of AD folks who do this.

Frankly, you're starting to sound like the Military Wannabees when you worry about stuff like this.

If I am not mistaken our friend flyguy06 is a Military Actuallyis.

How about a good definition of "Military Wannabee".  And, just out of curiosity, what was your MOS back in the day?

Quote from: aveighter on September 03, 2009, 12:55:27 AM
If I am not mistaken our friend flyguy06 is a Military Actuallyis.

How about a good definition of "Military Wannabee". 

Note that I said he "sounds like" a wannbee.

My definition of that, because you asked, is someone who joins CAP, which has been around for over 60 years, then decides it needs to be "more military" to suit them, as if the organization ought to change because they'd like being in CAP to be the same as being a member of a military unit.

It's a pretty simple concept: If he's a "military actuallyis," then he needs to enjoy the C&C aspect of that job while at work and stop complaining that CAP, which is a civilian auxiliary, is not "military" enough to suit him.

Then again, every time we get him upset, he says he's going to quit CAP, so maybe he'd like TP's US Rangers better.

Quote from: aveighter on September 03, 2009, 12:55:27 AM
And, just out of curiosity, what was your MOS back in the day?

How about AFSC??  After all this is the AF Aux - not the Army Aux.   ;D

Quote from: aveighter on September 03, 2009, 12:55:27 AM
And, just out of curiosity, what was your MOS back in the day?

It's always interesting to learn about one anothers' experiences, but I hope there isn't a perception the opinions of those without military experience are less valid.  On some issues, sure.  Not a factor in this discussion as far as I can tell.

Quote from: wuzafuzz on September 03, 2009, 01:54:37 AM

Quote from: aveighter on September 03, 2009, 12:55:27 AM
And, just out of curiosity, what was your MOS back in the day?

It's always interesting to learn about one anothers' experiences, but I hope there isn't a perception the opinions of those without military experience are less valid.  On some issues, sure.  Not a factor in this discussion as far as I can tell.

Nor should Fly's desire to stay close to CAP's military heritage be taken as anything but face value - its an important part of who we were and are and should not be denied for expediency or political correctness.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 03, 2009, 02:27:09 AM

Quote from: wuzafuzz on September 03, 2009, 01:54:37 AM

Quote from: aveighter on September 03, 2009, 12:55:27 AM
And, just out of curiosity, what was your MOS back in the day?

It's always interesting to learn about one anothers' experiences, but I hope there isn't a perception the opinions of those without military experience are less valid.  On some issues, sure.  Not a factor in this discussion as far as I can tell.

Nor should Fly's desire to stay close to CAP's military heritage be taken as anything but face value - its an important part of who we were and are and should not be denied for expediency or political correctness.

To be clear, I am not advocating that we do that.

I have had trouble understanding from Post #1 on this topic how FG believes doing ES makes us less "military."

Several people have pointed out that they're not mutually exclusive.

Quote from: Rotorhead on September 03, 2009, 02:29:55 AM
To be clear, I am not advocating that we do that.

I have had trouble understanding from Post #1 on this topic how FG believes doing ES makes us less "military."

Several people have pointed out that they're not mutually exclusive.

They aren't, but I have seen it happen myself.  For better or worse this organization is permeated with "specialists" who believe the only thing important is their "thing", and anything which gets in the way of that "thing" is irrelevant to their reality.

Regs, uniforms, courtesies, discipline, even teamwork, all take extra effort over and above the cowboy mentality of "Let's go rezq them peeps!".

Couple the above with working with civil, and civilian, agencies that have no history or expectation of anything but lowest common denominator performance and you can see where those with the inclination towards the slack can adopt it and allow it to permeate their programs.

Those of you who have had real success in ES, and certainly those with military experience, understand that its exactly that discipline and attention to detail that irons out the trivial decisions when things get "sporty" and gives you the mental bandwidth to deal with the situation directly.

Those of you who know me would say that I enjoy the creature comforts, and generally wear a uniform which suits the duty with an eye towards that comfort, but in the same breath they would tell you that I also am anal about whatever I choose, and am a stickler for courtesies and procedures beyond the minimum.  I depend on that for the reasons stated above, respect those who understand it as well, and have seen plenty of people who "know better" collapse under fairly low pressure because they have no secondary.

The simple act of wearing a golf shirt in the ICP vs. a flight suit, or "other", doesn't necessitate a full-scale loss of military discipline, however I've certainly seen the behavior exhibited in many who wear it, especially if that's all they have because of some bizarre "poser" attitude about the more military combos.

Its also an interesting dynamic in the mind of many of the general public, and even some of our members, that can disdain the discipline, courtesies and procedures of the military at the micro level, yet still seeks out that same behavior as "best practice" and "goto guys" at the macro level.  I believe this is the "Hollywood Syndrome", where every officer is an idiot, every enlisted man lazy or corrupt, except for the hero....

QuoteFor better or worse this organization is permeated with "specialists" who believe the only thing important is their "thing", and anything which gets in the way of that "thing" is irrelevant to their reality.

I guess we're more like the Air Force than we thought...

Quote from: Eclipse on September 03, 2009, 02:49:08 AM
The simple act of wearing a golf shirt in the ICP vs. a flight suit, or "other", doesn't necessitate a full-scale loss of military discipline, however I've certainly seen the behavior exhibited in many who wear it, especially if that's all they have because of some bizarre "poser" attitude about the more military combos.

You put way too much faith in some of the people who always wear the military combos.    Rank in CAP is based on Professional Development.  That does not equate to Leadership Development as rank does in the military.  I see too many "field grade" officers who lack the leadership skills to lead urine out of a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel.   I also don't automatically assume someone who only wears military combos as being "posers".  I judge people on how they perform and not on the uniform they wear.  I expect everyone on a mission to treat each other with the professional courtesy and respect CAP Core values demand of us.

I personally never really thought about uniforms outside of wearing the "appropriate" and legal CAP uniform the regulations required for the functions I was accomplishing.  However, it started to rile me a bit to hear people talking (and chatting on CAP Talk) about how "unprofessional" someone was just because they didn't wear a military style uniform and how much better someone else was just because they wore a military style uniform.  Leadership, discipline, and respectful behavior are not defined by the uniform you wear.

I am an Observer who has been in all three types of CAP squadrons.

If anyone doubts that CAP is letting Cadet Programs slide, check out an active Cadet Squadron.

I have an old friend who is a police officer, and I lived in close proximity to a fire station at one time.  If I, as a CAP member, can do anything within the purview of CAP's missions to make life a little easier for these types, I'm good with that.

I am not neccessarily saying CAP is letting the cadet program slide. I guess I am having trouble saying what I mean in words.

Let me put it this way. I see CAP capt's and LT's calling CAP MAJ's and LTC's by their first name instead of by their rank. thats something you typically see in a LE or Fire or EMS environment and something you dont see in a military environment.

Another example. I see senior membrs in uniform walking around with their hands in their pockets and not saltuing those of higher rank or saying sir or ma'am. Yeah, not a real big deal. But again, not something you would see of a professional military officer.

When they are corrected on proper military protocal they laugh as if it is a joke or something. And you get responses like "Yeah, its been 30 years since I did that stuff heh heh heh"

So that what I mean when Isay the "mindset" is that of an EMA organization and not that of an auxillary of a military organization. These guys do their missions great, thats not  the issue. The issue I was addressing was the mindset of the memebrs. Great guys all of them but I wonder if they really see CAP as an auxillary of the Air Force  like an state defense force or do they see CAP as an emergency services organization "similar" to a volunteer fire department?

Interesting topic, and I think a conversation/discussion/debate we should have amongst ourselves.  I'll add a couple of things in here but be forewarned they are my typical over/under thoughts (over-simplistic and under-developed  :)).

Quote from: flyguy06 on September 19, 2009, 06:15:21 PM
Let me put it this way. I see CAP capt's and LT's calling CAP MAJ's and LTC's by their first name instead of by their rank. thats something you typically see in a LE or Fire or EMS environment and something you dont see in a military environment.

I was in the ANG for 14 years and I have to admit we were probably as bad about this as CAP tends to be.  I can't speak for the active duty, but after you've worked around the same group for so many years, it tends to become more informal.  I'm not saying that it's right, but it is the reality.

Quote from: flyguy06 on September 19, 2009, 06:15:21 PM
Another example. I see senior membrs in uniform walking around with their hands in their pockets and not saltuing those of higher rank or saying sir or ma'am. Yeah, not a real big deal. But again, not something you would see of a professional military officer.

Again comparing/contrasting my ANG and CAP lives, I'd say in the Guard we were better about hands in pockets and things like wearing hats outdoors and keeping pockets buttoned than CAP is, but we were slack in saluting.  I probably saluted more when at CAP meetings than when at Guard drill, likely because I was aware of the cadets' presence and was trying to set a good example for them.

Quote from: flyguy06 on September 19, 2009, 06:15:21 PM
When they are corrected on proper military protocal they laugh as if it is a joke or something. And you get responses like "Yeah, its been 30 years since I did that stuff heh heh heh"

Ran in to this exact attitude in the ANG, believe it or not.  If you tried to push protocol and/or C&C you tended to come off as "ate up."  Not a reputation you wanted.

Thinking back on it now though, it was a funny thing.  There was like a mental switch that was flipped when it was time to "get to work" and actually do the mission (vs. the normal drill enviornment which centered on training).  The change in people when we started a big exercise for example, was almost palpable.  You didn't see a massive increase in C&C, but you did see a "seriousness" take over.  So in the end, that professionalism was there, but it seemed to only show itself when the situation required.

Quote from: flyguy06 on September 19, 2009, 06:15:21 PM
So that what I mean when Isay the "mindset" is that of an EMA organization and not that of an auxillary of a military organization. These guys do their missions great, thats not  the issue. The issue I was addressing was the mindset of the memebrs. Great guys all of them but I wonder if they really see CAP as an auxillary of the Air Force  like an state defense force or do they see CAP as an emergency services organization "similar" to a volunteer fire department?

And here is the true debate.  I've noticed in my Wing that most folks wo are in the operations side of the house see it as an ES organization (and tend to be more informal), and the folks in CP and PD tend to see it as the AF Aux (more "professional").  Oddly enough, AE tends to lean more toward the informal.  Someone on here long ago described it as the "schizophrenia of CAP."

Personally I think along the same lines as Eclipse:

Quote from: Eclipse
Those of you who have had real success in ES, and certainly those with military experience, understand that its exactly that discipline and attention to detail that irons out the trivial decisions when things get "sporty" and gives you the mental bandwidth to deal with the situation directly.

I see the disciplines that are learned and become ingrained in a person through the practice of protocol, C&C, and good uniform wear as supportive and complimentary to the performance of our ES mission.  Many of us don't see that connection, or don't recognize its importance.  I also agree that the uniform you choose to wear should have no bearing on your professionalism or attitude.

The question is, how do we push for the culture and attitude change that's needed without coming off as "ate up?"  Or do we already have that discipline?  Do we have the capacity to flip that mental switch when the situation requires?

Yes, i have been in the army guard for 20 years now and even it  has changed withthe times. You are correct, even inthe guard the saluting is very minmal. many civvies dont realize this but back inthe 70's and 80's Guard drill consisted of drinking beer and watchng college football games. It wasnt until dersert Storm when Guard units stated getting activiated and they realized "Hey, we need to take this military stuff seriously" that things started to change. Soldiers andairmen started actually doing their jobs and taking them seriously.


But, back to CAP. The question was how do we push for a culture change? By  targeting more recently retired militaryoflks and former cadets. audience of who we recruit.

Even within Guard and Reserve units the YMMV rule can apply to customs and courtesies, though not as widely as in CAP.

It can be kind of jarring for a new Airman/Private/Seaman coming out of basic training, after having C/C drilled into them (loudly) for weeks/months to hear E-7's and E-4's calling one another by name, or 0-3's and 0-6's.  Especially for the Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard (?, not sure about the CG) where they have to call MTI's, DI's and CC's "sir" or "ma'am" during basic.

I remember a young Army private almost soiling himself because he thought he didn't salute me, a CAP officer, properly.  I tried to explain to him that he didn't have to, but I don't think he got it.  I think all he saw was the bars.

When we're having BS sess...<cough> administrative meetings, we usually call one another by name, but in the presence of the cadets and among the general public it's always by rank.

I just wish we could come up with something more operational-sounding than "Senior Member" for those who haven't got their 2LT's yet...

Quote from: CyBorg on September 20, 2009, 05:48:39 PM
I remember a young Army private almost soiling himself because he thought he didn't salute me, a CAP officer, properly.  I tried to explain to him that he didn't have to, but I don't think he got it.  I think all he saw was the bars.

Please never do that again.  Let him apologize, salute, and move on.

Ok, this is for everyone. Please remeber that just because you use an acronym doesnt mean thateveryone knows what it means. I have no idea what YMMV menas. So please write it out then acronym it from thenon.

Eclipse. I totally agree with you. WHy do we apologize to military folks and tell them they dont have to salute? Its not like theyare oreder not to salute. If they do it, just greet them and salute back. You folks act its a bad thing to be saluted. Its not. Its a curteousy just salute back and drive on.

Quote from: flyguy06 on September 20, 2009, 07:22:59 PM
Ok, this is for everyone. Please remeber that just because you use an acronym doesnt mean thateveryone knows what it means. I have no idea what YMMV menas. So please write it out then acronym it from thenon.

A couple common acronyms:
IIRC - If I Recall Correctly
YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary
IMHO - In My Humble Opinion
IMNO - In My Not-so-humble Opinion
IMO - In My Opinion
IAW - In Accordance With
RTFM - Read The F(fill in the rest)'n Manual
CAP - Civil Air Patrol (official), Come And Pay (common) ;D

Remember the reason we use acronyms is so we DON'T have to spell everything out. If you see one you don't know, a common practice is the reply with just the acronym followed by a question mark, like so:
YMMV?

Any of a number of posters here will happily explain it.

Quote from: arajca on September 20, 2009, 08:28:57 PM

Quote from: flyguy06 on September 20, 2009, 07:22:59 PM
Ok, this is for everyone. Please remeber that just because you use an acronym doesnt mean thateveryone knows what it means. I have no idea what YMMV menas. So please write it out then acronym it from thenon.

A couple common acronyms:
IIRC - If I Recall Correctly
YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary
IMHO - In My Humble Opinion
IMNO - In My Not-so-humble Opinion
IAW - In Accordance With
RTFM - Read The F(fill in the rest)'n Manual
CAP - Civil Air Patrol (official), Come And Pay (common) ;D

There, from time to time, several CAP grammarians that make a valid point about proper use of language on these forums.  Strange that they allow the practice of "NETSPEAK" to make its way.

Remember, the purpose of language is Communication, to get a mental image from one person's mind into another with the same meaning.  Thus, if you are making a point you want UNIVERSALLY understood, then refrain from using netspeak.  If it is casual and you don't mind if everyone gets it, then the point is moot.

An interesting read on the matter comes from George Orwell...

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

This is not a link to 1984, where he goes on about language and its place, but rather what he viewed as a movement away from proper meaning of language.

QuoteMost people who bother with the matter at all would admit that the English language is in a bad way, but it is generally assumed that we cannot by conscious action do anything about it. Our civilization is decadent and our language -- so the argument runs -- must inevitably share in the general collapse. It follows that any struggle against the abuse of language is a sentimental archaism, like preferring candles to electric light or hansom cabs to aeroplanes. Underneath this lies the half-conscious belief that language is a natural growth and not an instrument which we shape for our own purposes.

The above emboldened word in the quote links the conversation to CAP, and also brazenly (if not ironically) proves the point Orwell is making.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2009, 05:55:19 PM

Quote from: CyBorg on September 20, 2009, 05:48:39 PM
I remember a young Army private almost soiling himself because he thought he didn't salute me, a CAP officer, properly.  I tried to explain to him that he didn't have to, but I don't think he got it.  I think all he saw was the bars.

Please never do that again.  Let him apologize, salute, and move on.

This was some years ago.  Hopefully I've learnt since then.

I rarely use netspeak like "ur," "LOL," etc.  I look at it as a debasement of the English language on par with the Valley Girl dialect of 20-odd years ago.

I only used the "YMMV" as an illustrator because I've seen it on here before.

The key is "you've" seen it onhere. If you are communicating a message to someone else its not about you. Its about the reciever. I agree with MAJ Corrales.

Anyway, this is off the subject. can we get back on topic please?

EMA's, military discipline,yadayada YMMV,

This thread couldn't stay on track if it was on a Lionel train track

By the way,  CAP is still NOT an EMA!!!

Quote from: heliodoc on September 20, 2009, 11:07:38 PM
EMA's, military discipline,yadayada YMMV,

This thread couldn't stay on track if it was on a Lionel train track

By the way,  CAP is still NOT an EMA!!!

LOL. I know its not.

RTFM = Read The Furnished Material    ;D

lol. ok

GIDKTWTW; we were TATST? It is NVC and IGCOT. 

(Trans...Gee, I did not know that worked that way...; we were...talking about the same thing?  It is...not very clear...and...I got confused on that.")

I'm not certain this thread has progressed to where you intended, but here's my 2 cents.

When I joined my squadron, a senior squadron, I might add, there were 15 active members and no one wore a uniform to the meeting. Why? Because the commander did not wear one, nor did he stress the importance of C&C.

When he moved on and I became deputy commander, the new commander and I put a luke warm effort into making the squadron more concious of C&C and uniform wear. Now, being a senior squadron, we were all about ES and ES only. And the squadron grew.

Today, 5 years after I joined CAP, I am the commander of the only senior squadron on Long Island. There are 6 Cadet squadrons here.

Uniform wear at the squadron is mandatory. (Though we allow Golf shirts because it is a uniform). Customs and Courtesis is the norm. The use of rank, followed by last name, though still cumbersome is generally accepted. Yet, we are still an ES squadron only. We train Cadets in ES but have no exposure to any other parts of the Cadet program.

And the squadron has grown to 42 members, of which about 35 are active.  Morale is good. We really just need a real mission to put it all together. Since 121.6 got shut down, we've had not a single ELT mission.

The requirement of a uniform and C&C was well received. Even the old timers liked it.

As for CAP as a whole, I see it completely different from you. I see my area of CAP being all about Cadet O-Flights, and Drill, etc. and not focusing so  much on ES. Why is that? Well, we're on Long Island. It's tough to lose an airplane out here. The County PD's have their own air assets and the Volunteer FDs are better equipted than some small countries. I dont think CAP plays as large of an ES role on Long Island
as it does elsewhere in the nation.
Read Volunteer Magazine. For every photo or article on ES, there are at least 4 on cadets. This gives me an indication that CAP is more interested in the Cadet side.

Your squadron is what you make it, as a commander and a member.

Very good points. Your Squadron is unique to what I have experienced.

Like I said, a squadron is what the members make it.

If my members want a more military style enviornment (And the did) we provided that for them.

Now, when new candidates come to a meeting, if they are turned off by that type of enviorment, they simply dont join. And the ones that like it, do join so we attrach more of ourselves.

This goes beyond the Squadron. In my original post I said I was referring to  people at a RSC so I am talking about folks from around the Region and I dont wanna give you a bad impression of my region either. isaw it at National activities as well.

I'm starting to believe that there are two distinct CAPs.  One is heavily invested in the cadet program, tries to fulfill all of our missions (ES, AE, CP), regards cadets as valuable members of the team, and takes the military aspects of the organization seriously.  This CAP consists of all three types of squadrons, with the senior squadrons actively supporting the CP with o-flights and ES training.

The other CAP almost exclusively consists of senior squadrons heavily involved in flight ops or other aspects of emergency services.  This CAP pays little more than lip service to the AE and CP missions, tends to discount the potential contribution of cadets, has little use for military customs and courtesies, and generally has nothing to do with uniforms other than the polo shirt.

Of these two CAPs, the second is very much like a traditional EMA.  Although I cannot support this with anything other than anecdotal evidence, I strongly believe that the senior leadership of CAP is drawn from this side of the house, which explains the original poster's perception that CAP is becoming yet another EMA.

Quote from: NC Hokie on September 22, 2009, 01:54:47 AM
I'm starting to believe that there are two distinct CAPs.  One is heavily invested in the cadet program, tries to fulfill all of our missions (ES, AE, CP), regards cadets as valuable members of the team, and takes the military aspects of the organization seriously.  This CAP consists of all three types of squadrons, with the senior squadrons actively supporting the CP with o-flights and ES training.

The other CAP almost exclusively consists of senior squadrons heavily involved in flight ops or other aspects of emergency services.  This CAP pays little more than lip service to the AE and CP missions, tends to discount the potential contribution of cadets, has little use for military customs and courtesies, and generally has nothing to do with uniforms other than the polo shirt.

Of these two CAPs, the second is very much like a traditional EMA.  Although I cannot support this with anything other than anecdotal evidence, I strongly believe that the senior leadership of CAP is drawn from this side of the house, which explains the original poster's perception that CAP is becoming yet another EMA.

I think you are right to a certain extent, at least regarding the kind of senior squadrons you mentioned in the second paragraph.  Many years ago when I changed squadrons resulting from a move, I went from a composite squadron that was very squared-away, both seniors and cadets, and everyone who could wore the AF type uniform (horrible berry boards and all) correctly, to a senior squadron.

This squadron did some good stuff operationally, but they also did a lot of non-mission flying, and they wanted absolutely nothing to do with cadets.

I was the only one who wore the blue uniform, and at least one person asked me why I bothered to do that, since it was "only Civil Air Patrol, not the Air Force."

Other than the CC, I didn't know the ranks of half the members, because they never used them and rarely wore uniforms, not even the white and greys.  There was the occasional golf shirt, and sometimes flight suits on missions, but usually "compliance" with uniform regs while flying meant wearing a CAP baseball cap.  Rarely did anyone advance in rank past 1st Lieutenant - no interest.

Now, not all senior squadrons are like that.  Some are really operational, with a lot of finds to their credit, and when the occasion calls for it, they wear the uniform (of whatever style) correctly.

I'm in a cadet squadron, and these kids are so good with uniform wear and C/C's that it makes me watch myself more closely, which is a good thing.

Quote from: NC Hokie on September 22, 2009, 01:54:47 AM
I'm starting to believe that there are two distinct CAPs.  One is heavily invested in the cadet program, tries to fulfill all of our missions (ES, AE, CP), regards cadets as valuable members of the team, and takes the military aspects of the organization seriously.  This CAP consists of all three types of squadrons, with the senior squadrons actively supporting the CP with o-flights and ES training.

The other CAP almost exclusively consists of senior squadrons heavily involved in flight ops or other aspects of emergency services.  This CAP pays little more than lip service to the AE and CP missions, tends to discount the potential contribution of cadets, has little use for military customs and courtesies, and generally has nothing to do with uniforms other than the polo shirt.

Of these two CAPs, the second is very much like a traditional EMA.  Although I cannot support this with anything other than anecdotal evidence, I strongly believe that the senior leadership of CAP is drawn from this side of the house, which explains the original poster's perception that CAP is becoming yet another EMA.

FINALLY someone who understands what I have been saying all along. He probably just said it better than I could.