A comment I made on a thread over in ES got me to wondering. How many Wings don't have Groups? I know MAWG and RIWG for a fact don't. Are there any others?
I know CTWG does not. VT, NH and ME don't have enough squadrons to have groups. (5 per group, 2 group min = 10 squadrons beside Wing HQ). That's 2/3 of NER.
NVWG does not....but they sort of operate like they do.
All our wing positions have a North and South director. We used to have a CV north and CV south.
OKWG does not have groups any more. We used to, but that changed about 5 (give or take) years ago.
MS Wing also does not have groups.
In NER only NJ, NY and PA have groups.
The other six wings -- CT MA ME NH RI VT -- do not.
KSWG does not.
OR wing does not have a group structure. IIRC, there are like 14 units in the wing.
Nebraska Wing also does not have Groups.
HIWG does not.
ALWG does not.
Quote from: phirons on December 28, 2011, 05:33:54 PM
I know CTWG does not. VT, NH and ME don't have enough squadrons to have groups. (5 per group, 2 group min = 10 squadrons beside Wing HQ). That's 2/3 of NER.
I wonder where you get those numbers?
1) Having groups is not dependant on the number of squadorns....(you need at least 2).
2) Just because 2 squadrons in one part of the state form into a group does not mean that you have to for the rest of the squadrons into a group as well.
Here is a theoritical example.
A large geograpical state with a low population (say Nevada).
2/3 of the wing's squadrons are located near two large cites 6 hours apart by car. (say Reno and Las Vegas).
The rest of the state is isolated squadrons.
Reno and/or Las Vegas could form a group...to capitolize on shared resources, exercise planning, training opportunites, AE consolidation etc....while the remaining squadron continue to report directly to the Wing CC. This reduces the work load on the wing commander.....he only has 10 squadrons and 2 group commanders reporting to him....instead of 30 squadron commanders.
YMMV.
Here is the count so far:
With Groups(14):
COWG
CAWG
GLWG
TXWG
NJWG
NYWG
PAWG
ILWG
WIWG
INWG
TNWG
GAWG
PRWG
OHWG
MIWG
With out groups (16):
AKWG
MAWG
RIWG
CTWG
VTWG
NHWG
MEWG
NVWG
OKWG
MSWG
KSWG
ORWG
NEWG
HIWG
ALWG
IDWG
Who's missing:
NDWG
SDWG
IOWG
MOWG
ARWG
MIWG
KYWG
WAWG
UTWG
NMWG
LAWG
WVWG
VAWG
NAT CAP WG
SCWG
NCWG
DLWG
MNWG
WOWG
AZWG
Did I miss any?
ILWG, WIWG, & INWG have groups.
In SER, all the wings, except for MS, have groups, so that's TN,GA,FL,AL,and PR
Quote from: Eclipse on December 28, 2011, 09:14:17 PM
ILWG, WIWG, & INWG have groups.
You need to add INWG to "have" - I don't know about Idaho.
OHWG and MIWG have groups.
NCWG and VAWG have groups.
West Virginia doesn't, speaking as a former member there.
As for Florida, there's seven. The largest -- Group 3, in the seven-county area from the mouth of Tampa Bay north and east -- has 1,000 members. That's bigger than many wings, wouldn't you say?
AKWG does not have Groups.
Oops, I see that was already counted.
COWG has four groups.
Mike
Quote from: Eclipse on December 28, 2011, 09:31:07 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 28, 2011, 09:14:17 PM
ILWG, WIWG, & INWG have groups.
You need to add INWG to "have" - I don't know about Idaho.
Idaho doesn't have groups anymore. The only wing I know of in RMR that uses groups in COWG.
Here is the count so far:
With Groups(18):
MOWG
NCWG
VAWG
COWG
CAWG
FLWG
TXWG
NJWG
NYWG
PAWG
ILWG
WIWG
INWG
TNWG
GAWG
PRWG
OHWG
MIWG
With out groups (23):
MNWG
IAWG
Nat CAP WG
WVWG
AKWG
MAWG
RIWG
CTWG
VTWG
NHWG
MEWG
NVWG
OKWG
MSWG
KSWG
ORWG
NEWG
HIWG
ALWG
IDWG
UTWG
MTWG
WYWG
Who's missing(10):
NDWG
SDWG
ARWG
KYWG
WAWG
NMWG
LAWG
SCWG
DEWG
AZWG
Did I miss any?
All you seek is in here (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Unit_Directory_3449B1BF3A9EC.pdf).
Lordmonar: what the heck are IOWG and DLWG, and WOWG?
Do you mean Iowa (IA) Delaware (DE) and W
Oyoming (WY)?
You've listed Michigan twice. Remove it from the unknown list; it already appears on the list of "haves."
Move Missouri from the unknown list to the list of "haves."
Move Delaware, Iowa, Montana, and National Capitol to the list of "have nots"
And alphabetize them!
JeffDG says Alabama has groups, but the list provided by SarDragon shows he's wrong.
Quote from: JeffDG on December 28, 2011, 09:27:08 PM
In SER, all the wings, except for MS, have groups, so that's TN,GA,FL,AL,and PR
Alrighty, I've been wrong once or twice before...
I was going off this:
(http://sercap.us/images/organizational_chart.jpg)
Here is the updated an alphabitized list
Have Groups (24):
AZWG
CAWG
COWG
FLWG
GAWG
ILWG
INWG
LAWG
MDWG
MIWG
MNWG
MOWG
NCWG
NJWG
NMWG
NYWG
OHWG
PAWG
PRWG
SCWG
TNWG
TXWG
VAWG
WIWG
Don't Have Groups (28):
AKWG
ALWG
ARWG
CTWG
DEWG
HIWG
IAWG
IDWG
KSWG
KYWG
MAWG
MEWG
MSWG
MTWG
Nat CAP WG
NDWG
NEWG
NHWG
NVWG
OKWG
ORWG
RIWG
SDWG
UTWG
VTWG
WAWG
WVWG
WYWG
Have Groups:
AZWG
SCWG
WAWG
Do not:
KYWG
I'm really surprised how many wings don't have groups.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 28, 2011, 10:55:14 PM
Have Groups:
AZWG Got it
SCWG Got it
WAWG Not according to the unit Directory
Do not:
KYWG Got it
Well, it depends a lot on the numbers. My group has about 700 members. That's more than 16 wings, according to the latest figures I have available. Just because a wing is geographically large, like Montana, doesn't mean that there are enough members to need a groups structure. The population density is a big factor.
Re: WAWG - no groups, but there are area commanders. From the wing web page: NE Area Vice Commander, SE Area Vice Commander, NW Area Vice Commander, SW Area Vice Commander.
Quote from: SarDragon on December 28, 2011, 11:08:01 PM
Well, it depends a lot on the numbers. My group has about 700 members. That's more than 16 wings, according to the latest figures I have available. Just because a wing is geographically large, like Montana, doesn't mean that there are enough members to need a groups structure. The population density is a big factor.
Re: WAWG - no groups, but there are area commanders. From the wing web page: NE Area Vice Commander, SE Area Vice Commander, NW Area Vice Commander, SW Area Vice Commander.
+1
The two reasons to form a group would be.....population density and Geograpical seperation.
Some wings just don't need them. RI, DE, VT because they are too small both in number of squadrons and distance.
Some wings could not operate with out them...TX, FL, CA.
Some wings it could go both ways. NVWG could benifit from a group or two...just to consolidate operations and to control shared assets (We have 10 squadrons within 20 miles of each other, three squadrons that meet in the same facility, nine sqadrons that use the same ES facility.)....and we are all in the same county and support the same AOR.
But we have been groupless for so long it would not matter either way.
Why do you have more than one unit in the same place?
Quote from: Eclipse on December 29, 2011, 12:09:13 AM
Why do you have more than one unit in the same place?
Well....
They had two squadrons at Nellis AFB (cadet and senior squadron).
The senior squadon moved their meeting place to the local airport where they flew out of.
There was a composite squadron that already met there....then they split off into a senior and cadet squadron.
The cadet squadron on Nellis converted to a composit squadron and the cadet squadron at the airport converted to a composite squadron.
There is another squadron standing up at the airport as well....but they meet in another facility....and are not part of the wing...so they are a special case.
And yes...I have had a discussion with the last three wing commanders about why there are three squadrons at one airport.....but you know how kids can be.
The seniors can't get along with each other and none of them want to work with cadets.....so I just ignored them and did my thing with the Nellis Composite squadron.
AZWG does and doesn't have groups
There ARE units with the type of GROUP, but, if you look in the Organization table of CAPWATCH (entire nation is available to everyone) you will see that all squadrons in AZWG report to AZ001, which apparently happened 1 Feb 11.
Quote from: JeffDG on December 28, 2011, 09:27:08 PM
In SER, all the wings, except for MS, have groups, so that's TN,GA,FL,AL,and PR
AL does not have groups. Which was already stated.
Using 2010 CAP membership data and US census data, a couple of correlations can be seen:
1. CAP wings with membership of over 1000 have groups with the exception of AKWG (1003) and ALWG (1027). CAP wings with less than 1000 members which have groups are NMWG (943) and LAWG (585).
2. CAP wings in states with a population of 4 million or greater have groups, with three exceptions: KYWG (4.3 mil), ALWG (4.8 mil) and MAWG (6.6 mil). Wings with groups in states/territories with less than 4 million residents are PRWG (3.7 mil) and NMWG (2.1 mil).
As for defining groups, I searched the membership directory for "group" and checked the websites of wings where group status was unclear. I included WAWG with its area commands, AZWG since it has four regional HQs which contain squadrons and "provide oversight" and NMWG which has Group 800 consisting of school chartered units. There are a total of 25 wings with groups by these definitions.
The membership and census data were readily available since we recently had a discussion on "market penetration" of CAP comparing wing membership to state/territory population. The trend was that the larger the population, the lower the ratio of membership to population. That discussion and a chart are at: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14191.msg257181#msg257181 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14191.msg257181#msg257181)
Mike
Lordmonar, you left out DE WG (no groups).
Quote from: sardak on December 29, 2011, 02:07:57 AM
Using 2010 CAP membership data and US census data, a couple of correlations can be seen:
1. CAP wings with membership of over 1000 have groups with the exception of AKWG (1003) and ALWG (1027). CAP wings with less than 1000 members which have groups are NMWG (943) and LAWG (585).
2. CAP wings in states with a population of 4 million or greater have groups, with three exceptions: KYWG (4.3 mil), ALWG (4.8 mil) and MAWG (6.6 mil). Wings with groups in states/territories with less than 4 million residents are PRWG (3.7 mil) and NMWG (2.1 mil).
Brilliant. Nice job taking the numbers and finding the tipping point (1000 members and/or 4 million population). Thanks Mike!
Quote from: sardak on December 29, 2011, 02:07:57 AM
1. CAP wings with membership of over 1000 have groups with the exception of AKWG (1003) and ALWG (1027). CAP wings with less than 1000 members which have groups are NMWG (943) and LAWG (585).
Well, I think CAP membership in this context is really a stand in for the number of units. If a wing had 1000 members in 10 squadrons of 100 each, I bet it wouldn't have groups. But, spread that same 1000 members across 20 50-member squadrons then they probably make sense.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 28, 2011, 09:47:51 PM
West Virginia doesn't, speaking as a former member there.
As for Florida, there's seven. The largest -- Group 3, in the seven-county area from the mouth of Tampa Bay north and east -- has 1,000 members. That's bigger than many wings, wouldn't you say?
I would think Group 2 which goes from Daytona to Tallahassee is geographically the largest
lordmonar, MNWG appears on both lists (groups and no groups).
Quote from: MSG Mac on December 29, 2011, 04:27:33 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 28, 2011, 09:47:51 PM
West Virginia doesn't, speaking as a former member there.
As for Florida, there's seven. The largest -- Group 3, in the seven-county area from the mouth of Tampa Bay north and east -- has 1,000 members. That's bigger than many wings, wouldn't you say?
I would think Group 2 which goes from Daytona to Tallahassee is geographically the largest
I'm not sure; seems to me Group 5 may qualify for that, stretching from the mouth of Tampa Bay south to Monroe County and taking in all the inland counties to the east. Additionally, as for largest in terms of personnel, last I knew, Group 3 was being closely followed by Group 4.
Attached is a chart showing which wings have groups, a wing's total membership and the ratio of membership to wing population.
Mike