November 26, 2022, 07:20:23 pm

CAP Launches bold new something something...

Started by Eclipse, June 30, 2022, 08:10:58 pm

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JohhnyD

NHQ again shows that they decide, and we comply. So much for "the squadron is the heart of the organization."

This is clearly the result of marketing volunteers trying to overthink a non-existent problem. Our prior logo was classy, well known, and not in any way shape, or form offensive or abstract. It represented us well. The new logo has to be explained and does not speak for itself.

On a 1 - 100 scale, I give this a score of 23.

THRAWN

Quote from: tmgoethe on July 01, 2022, 02:46:00 pm
Quote from: RangerConlin on June 30, 2022, 08:58:46 pmAs a member for over 16 years, I don't immediately associate that with CAP.  If experienced members can't, how do we expect the public to associate it with us? All the effort over the past few years on single solitary brand recognition over the past few years - poof.

My dad flew for CAP in WWII and we will no longer have an emblem he would recognize. Sigh.

This alone is a reason to stick with the legacy logo. Apologies to your family.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

Shuman 14

Quote from: JohhnyD on July 01, 2022, 06:40:57 pmOn a 1 - 100 scale, I give this a score of 23.

Must be your generous nature.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

cobra6987

Quote from: JohhnyD on July 01, 2022, 06:40:57 pmOur prior logo was classy, well known, and not in any way shape, or form offensive or abstract. It represented us well. The new logo has to be explained and does not speak for itself.

See, I don't understand this argument. In the 20+ years and I've been I've never met anyone outside of connection with CAP that can tell you what the prop logo represents. Even most Air Force poeple I served with had no clue.

Side note, didn't I see a post not too long ago saying we needed to move on from clinging to WWII history? Something about why are we talking about how we sunk a sub 80 years ago, but don't talk about anything current IIRC. I don't remember if it was here or on reddit, but I generally agree with the sentiment. Not saying to drop anything WWII related, but focus on what we're doing now. In that kind of sense, I thnk the logo may help with that shift. They did say it was a cadet focus group, so they're looking at the new generation (not that I necessiarlly agree that the newest people should have decided for the whole.)
SSgt, USAF (Separated)
Lt Col, CAP
Shiprock 10
Ham - N5TCL

RiverAux

I don't know of any evidence that the old CAP logo was known at all outside CAP, much less well-known.  Obviously, we knew what it was and probably what it meant, but that was probably about as far as it went. 

Now, does that mean that I agree that a change be made?  No, not really. 
Is it going to help the organization in any way?  No, not really. 
Is it going to hurt the organization in any way?  No, not really. 

JohhnyD

Quote from: Shuman 14 on July 01, 2022, 07:01:34 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on July 01, 2022, 06:40:57 pmOn a 1 - 100 scale, I give this a score of 23.

Must be your generous nature.
I started with single digits, so yes.

tmgoethe

One of the strengths of the Marine Corps is its reverence for its own history, recognizing that we stand on the shoulders of those before us. The Eagle, Anchor and Globe has been in use for over 200 years with very minor changes.

Being able to explain the logo is nice, but recognizing it is the most important. I would bet the Marine insignia is recognized, though most might not know the Eagle is for the United States, the Globe is for worldwide service and the Anchor represents the fact the Marines are a naval service.

I will bet that while quite a few people recognize the old CAP insignia, it will take many years to get as many to recognize the new one meaning we have tossed years of "brand" recognition down the tubes.

Heraldry matters. Did the CAP heraldry people have much to do with this?

NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: tmgoethe on July 02, 2022, 12:11:03 pmHeraldry matters. Did the CAP heraldry people have much to do with this?

The CAP emblem and seal, which are the symbolic elements that contains heraldic elements, are unchanged and continue to have the tri-blade prop.

NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: tmgoethe on July 02, 2022, 12:11:03 pmit will take many years to get as many to recognize the new one meaning we have tossed years of "brand" recognition down the tubes.

Please go ahead and show me one place where the "CAP symbol" is currently being used on a website etc.

tmgoethe

Please go ahead and show me one place where the "CAP symbol" is currently being used on a website etc.
[/quote]

I don't think you can as the new one was populated across all CAP websites. I know the Triblade will be retained in some insignia, but I always liked it everywhere.

As to the other point, I would consider what we use as our symbol or insignia to be part of heraldry.

Oh well, for me it doesn't matter as other commitments are making me think my time in CAP is drawing nigh. This didn't help. We were a 3 generation CAP family. My son is about to join the Marines, so he won't have time for it. That said, CAP was a big deal in my life, largely because of my dad and then because of my son.

Eclipse

Quote from: tmgoethe on July 02, 2022, 03:24:00 pmI don't think you can as the new one was populated across all CAP websites.

Which is kind of hilarious when you consider that sites like this:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/members/cap-national-hq/uniform-information

...have not been updated after somewhere between 5-10 years depending on the change(s), but
this was changed seemingly overnight, not to mention the myriad regs and other documents
that continue to grow geometrically via ICL instead of being properly updated.

One can only wonder if this would have happened at all if the first-year MARCOM student who
drew this had only been allowed to borrow their family's Oldsmobile Silhouette for the
Senior trip to the beach, but alas, the stone was cast.

More humorous are the scores of people on the web that took 15 minutes and made
this into something that actually has connectivity to the organization and its history.

It should also be pointed out that NHQ continues to use a non-standard website to
host these images while at the same time portending to have a "required" host for
all other CAP websites.

"That Others May Zoom"

flyboy53

OK. So let's see if it sticks. For the record, I wasn't fond of the new AF Logo when it came out. I was a purist and spent most of my career associated with the "Hap Arnold" emblem even on some of my uniform items. But it took about two decades of constant exposure through the various commercial applications such as lapel pins, hats, shirts, etc., to sway me. I'm still a purist, though, and appreciate the legacy of the first emblem.

Forty-five years with this organization and the one constant has always been a new uniform or insignia change that gets dreamed up as a means of unifying people, and the end result is always some degree of non-compliance. Maybe this ranks right up there with the stock car thing. Maybe it will click in. As for me if I wear any form of CAP emblem with my civilian clothes, it will always be the WW II lapel pins that I have worn off and on since I was a cadet.

I would hope that the new logo does those things that they hope it will foster in terms of the membership. However, I think not.

biomed441

My personal opinions about the design aside (I don't not like it, but I would change some things).. what is the practical application of it? 

Are we putting this on our vehicles? Aircraft?  All new badges for the uniform that want to utilize a CAP logo?  (Are we re designing all the current badges now since 99% of them utilize the triangle and prop or variations of)

Will we be replacing patches and incorporating this logo into other uniform items? Will we have a new "tacticool" polo with this logo instead of the CAP seal?  (Yes I know this logo doesn't replace the seal, but if you look at the AF, Theyre using their logo on everything so precedence suggests we may do the same?

Just thinking out loud.  We didn't need a new logo... but now we have one... so whats next?

etodd

Quote from: biomed441 on July 03, 2022, 10:47:31 pmWe didn't need a new logo... but now we have one... so whats next?

New directions and new missions hopefully.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

PHall

Quote from: etodd on July 03, 2022, 10:54:25 pm
Quote from: biomed441 on July 03, 2022, 10:47:31 pmWe didn't need a new logo... but now we have one... so whats next?

New directions and new missions hopefully.

How about we learn to do our existing missions better?
We say we want to do disaster relief but we have zero skills in the one job that is always needed. Shelter Management. Mostly because we don't work and play well with other organizations. i.e. American Red Cross.

etodd

Quote from: PHall on July 04, 2022, 12:20:21 amHow about we learn to do our existing missions better?
We say we want to do disaster relief but we have zero skills in the one job that is always needed. Shelter Management. Mostly because we don't work and play well with other organizations. i.e. American Red Cross.


I agree. With the cell phone team taking virtually all of SAR away, DR is the way to go. But we need a completely new marketing strategy. Get rid of most all marketing that shows airplane and ground search teams, and put the emphasis on DR. As you say, shelter management, and showing videos of Cadets handing out water bottles.

Then ... we can start recruiting people that are interested in those things.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Holding Pattern

Quote from: etodd on July 04, 2022, 03:08:46 am
Quote from: PHall on July 04, 2022, 12:20:21 amHow about we learn to do our existing missions better?
We say we want to do disaster relief but we have zero skills in the one job that is always needed. Shelter Management. Mostly because we don't work and play well with other organizations. i.e. American Red Cross.


I agree. With the cell phone team taking virtually all of SAR away, DR is the way to go. But we need a completely new marketing strategy. Get rid of most all marketing that shows airplane and ground search teams, and put the emphasis on DR. As you say, shelter management, and showing videos of Cadets handing out water bottles.

Then ... we can start recruiting people that are interested in those things.

There are plenty of ground team opportunities the moment CAP learns to play nice with more local agencies.

etodd

Quote from: Holding Pattern on July 04, 2022, 03:16:00 am
Quote from: etodd on July 04, 2022, 03:08:46 am
Quote from: PHall on July 04, 2022, 12:20:21 amHow about we learn to do our existing missions better?
We say we want to do disaster relief but we have zero skills in the one job that is always needed. Shelter Management. Mostly because we don't work and play well with other organizations. i.e. American Red Cross.


I agree. With the cell phone team taking virtually all of SAR away, DR is the way to go. But we need a completely new marketing strategy. Get rid of most all marketing that shows airplane and ground search teams, and put the emphasis on DR. As you say, shelter management, and showing videos of Cadets handing out water bottles.

Then ... we can start recruiting people that are interested in those things.

There are plenty of ground team opportunities the moment CAP learns to play nice with more local agencies.

Varies widely by Wing. First responders in my area are well equipped and staffed and don't need help. YMMV
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

flyboy53

Expect to see the new logo on lapel pins, hats, shirts, jackets, etc. That's the real test -- if people will buy it from Vanguard.

I get the "V" thing as being volunteers, but the difference between the Air Force logo and this new CAP thing is that one is a modernized version of a legacy emblem. The CAP version with the big "V" is certainly a departure from the legacy emblem, but it's a "V," not a three bladed prop. I think there's a better way to illustrate volunteerism.

etodd

To the vast majority of people we will ever market to, the logo is meaningless, without the words Civil Air Patrol attached to it in the ad, shirt, brochure or whatever. Its extremely rare that a logo becomes well known without wording, like the swoosh or the golden arches or the Pepsi logo. CAP will never be that well known. The inside meaning of the logo will only be known by folks inside of CAP. Trying to describe the meaning of its various parts to outsiders will just have people's eyes glazing over. They don't care. So bottom line, any time you use the logo for anything meant for the public, be sure the org name is in big prominent text. Thats all the outsiders will notice.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."