Stolen Valor

[Johnny Yuma]

If I were the judge, I'd give him 12 weeks, the length of a USMC boot camp cycle.

I'd also make him do his time in a Naval Brig, followed by 1000 hours of community service scrubbing toilets at Bethesda Naval Hospital.

[SarDragon]

Along the same lines, I read of a recent poll that stated over 11,000,000 people claimed they were Viet Nam vets (that served in Nam), however, I think the poll said that in reality there were somewhere between 1,000,000-2,000,000 actual vets that served in country.  What's with that??

I wouldn't dispute the figures but I have it on good authority that the "fakes" are out there in droves nationwide. Not only are those who've never served but then there are the ones with the "Vietnam Veteran" baseballs caps who might have served during that period but never served anywhere in Southeast Asia. Those guys are just as fraudulent as those who've never served.

That's why I am very careful to describe my first enlistment ('69 - '73) as being Vietnam-era. The closest I got to Vietnam was Iwakuni, Japan, arriving around the end of July, 1973.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Along the same lines, I read of a recent poll that stated over 11,000,000 people claimed they were Viet Nam vets (that served in Nam), however, I think the poll said that in reality there were somewhere between 1,000,000-2,000,000 actual vets that served in country.  What's with that??

I wouldn't dispute the figures but I have it on good authority that the "fakes" are out there in droves nationwide. Not only are those who've never served but then there are the ones with the "Vietnam Veteran" baseballs caps who might have served during that period but never served anywhere in Southeast Asia. Those guys are just as fraudulent as those who've never served.

Just as there were only so many smelly hippies in that muddy field in New York State — Woodstock — and thousands more say they were. (Of course, with all the drugs, who'd ever know?)

[Hawk200]

I wouldn't dispute the figures but I have it on good authority that the "fakes" are out there in droves nationwide. Not only are those who've never served but then there are the ones with the "Vietnam Veteran" baseballs caps who might have served during that period but never served anywhere in Southeast Asia. Those guys are just as fraudulent as those who've never served.

If a person served in the military during the period of Vietnam, then they are a Vietnam veteran. If they served in-country, then they are a Veitnam combat veteran. There is a major difference. The combat veterans usually have a "Campaign" or "Service" medal.

However, there are plenty that claim claim combat veteran status that were never there. Those are indeed frauds.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I wouldn't dispute the figures but I have it on good authority that the "fakes" are out there in droves nationwide. Not only are those who've never served but then there are the ones with the "Vietnam Veteran" baseballs caps who might have served during that period but never served anywhere in Southeast Asia. Those guys are just as fraudulent as those who've never served.

If a person served in the military during the period of Vietnam, then they are a Vietnam veteran. If they served in-country, then they are a Veitnam combat veteran. There is a major difference. The combat veterans usually have a "Campaign" or "Service" medal.

OK, please explain this to me...

How is it that I could have served from 1963-1974 and, never having left the United States and never having been deployed anywhere, I could possibly be a "Vietnam veteran"? Especially if the only campaign medal of any kind I was presented is the National Defense Service Medal? That doesn't make sense at all to me.

The next step in that logic would be to say that I could be a Desert Storm veteran simply by virtue of being an American citizen, since the United States was heavily involved in that opeation.

Here's what makes sense to me: If you're in-theater, or supporting the fight from offshore or from a nearby nation (say, staging from Japan or Thailand), you're a Vietnam vet by virtue of participating in that campaign. If you were in a combat zone, and not in the rear with the gear, you're a Vietnam combat veteran.

(For the record: I was born in 1972, so there's no way I could have been a Vietnam veteran.)

[SarDragon]

How is it that I could have served from 1963-1974 and, never having left the United States and never having been deployed anywhere, I could possibly be a "Vietnam veteran"? Especially if the only campaign medal of any kind I was presented is the National Defense Service Medal? That doesn't make sense at all to me.

Hence my description of service as a Vietnam-era veteran. I served during the period of the war, but didn't see combat in theater.

[wuzafuzz]

I wonder if they can make that guy do some time with a psychologist as a term of probation.  Something ain't right with that boy.

[Cecil DP]

How about having him spend the sentance at a military base doing maintenance work, I suggest Thule AFB, Greenland

[Gunner C]

How about having him spend the sentance at a military base doing maintenance work, I suggest Thule AFB, Greenland

I don't think the Danish government would appreciate us storing our garbage there.

[flyboy53]

As a veteran, this is why I never talk much about the medals I've earned or the things I did in the Air Force. For one thing, most people don't understand. Second, I've run into so many fakes, even sitting at the bar in a vet's club. If this guy wants to be part of the military so bad, fine, how about a one-way plane ticket to Iraq. I wonder what a military prisoner at Ft. Leavenworth would say about him. Better yet, I'd love to see Gunny R. Lee Emery give him a serious dressing down. Bet he'd never forget that one...if he survived?

[flyboy53]

I
quote]

If a person served in the military during the period of Vietnam, then they are a Vietnam veteran. If they served in-country, then they are a Veitnam combat veteran. There is a major difference. The combat veterans usually have a "Campaign" or "Service" medal.

For the record, its the federal government that determines what a veteran is or is not...just check with the U.S. Department of Veteran's Affairs.  By federal law, if you served during the Vietnam War, you are a Vietnam veteran. They don't differentiate between in-country or out of the country.

[SarDragon]

For the record, its the federal government that determines what a veteran is or is not...just check with the U.S. Department of Veteran's Affairs.  By federal law, if you served during the Vietnam War, you are a Vietnam veteran. They don't differentiate between in-country or out of the country.

But you better believe that the folks who were over there do make that differentiation, and that's what this conversation is all about.

[DBlair]

Here is another one that surfaced today...

He likewise claims to be a Marine with the Navy Cross, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, with a total of 15 awards/medals he claims to have received- he even forged the Navy paperwork to "prove" it.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/dec/23/feds-lutz-man-lied-about-military-honors/news-breaking/

...this is the 4th person this year to be charged under the Stolen Valor Act in my area of Tampa Bay, FL.

[Hawk200]

Especially if the only campaign medal of any kind I was presented is the National Defense Service Medal?

For future reference, the NDSM is not a campaign medal. The name is the first clue, National Defense Service Medal. Receipt of one shows veteran of a war era, it just doesn't signify which one.

The next step in that logic would be to say that I could be a Desert Storm veteran simply by virtue of being an American citizen, since the United States was heavily involved in that opeation.

Nowhere near the next step, and that logic might work if you're six years old. The government doesn't follow that level of reasoning, it's beneath even them.

Here's what makes sense to me: If you're in-theater, or supporting the fight from offshore or from a nearby nation (say, staging from Japan or Thailand), you're a Vietnam vet by virtue of participating in that campaign. If you were in a combat zone, and not in the rear with the gear, you're a Vietnam combat veteran.

Your definition is irrelevant. As I said the government determines the difference between an era veteran and a combat veteran. I am considered a "combat veteran" because I was in Iraq during OIF, and was awarded the Iraqi Campaign Medal. I didn't shoot at anyone, and the worst I saw was the aftermath of a mortar or two, and the controlled detonation of one that fell about 150 yards away from the hangar but didn't go off.

For the record, its the federal government that determines what a veteran is or is not...just check with the U.S. Department of Veteran's Affairs.  By federal law, if you served during the Vietnam War, you are a Vietnam veteran. They don't differentiate between in-country or out of the country.

Thank you.

[Short Field]

^^^ +1

[Hawk200]

But you better believe that the folks who were over there do make that differentiation, and that's what this conversation is all about.

No, it's not. It's about people that want to assign their own definition to a term, reality be [darn]ed. Most likely because they refuse to accept any reality but their own.

New favorite saying: "You can avoid reality, but you can't avoid the consequences of reality". To which I add, "..nor can you change it".

[SarDragon]

I was at the USS Midway Aircraft Museum today, and had the opportunity to discuss Viet Nam with a  number of participants. I managed to ask about their definition of Viet Nam vet, and without fail, their definition was "someone who has been in-country". All the rest of the folks in the military during that time are Viet Nam era veterans.

The government might use different criteria for some of their benefits, but when it comes to medals and recognition, the definitions above pretty well cover the situation.

[Hawk200]

I was at the USS Midway Aircraft Museum today, and had the opportunity to discuss Viet Nam with a  number of participants. I managed to ask about their definition of Viet Nam vet, and without fail, their definition was "someone who has been in-country". All the rest of the folks in the military during that time are Viet Nam era veterans.

The government might use different criteria for some of their benefits, but when it comes to medals and recognition, the definitions above pretty well cover the situation.

That is still using majority opinion as a definition, rather than established fact. Whether those vets like it or not, the government has, in writing, established a "Vietnam veteran" as any military member that served during the time of the Vietnam conflict. It doesn't change just because someone wants it to, or chooses to redefine it. Opinion does not trump fact.

[Major Carrales]

I was at the USS Midway Aircraft Museum today, and had the opportunity to discuss Viet Nam with a  number of participants. I managed to ask about their definition of Viet Nam vet, and without fail, their definition was "someone who has been in-country". All the rest of the folks in the military during that time are Viet Nam era veterans.

The government might use different criteria for some of their benefits, but when it comes to medals and recognition, the definitions above pretty well cover the situation.

That is still using majority opinion as a definition, rather than established fact. Whether those vets like it or not, the government has, in writing, established a "Vietnam veteran" as any military member that served during the time of the Vietnam conflict. It doesn't change just because someone wants it to, or chooses to redefine it. Opinion does not trump fact.

Allow me to interlope a bit here to enrich the debate.  How about Veteran's of the Second World War that may never have deployed out of CONUS or who were deployed as part of the Army of Occupation following the end of the War?  Would we consider them WWII Veterans? 

[wingnut55]

I think the fakes are from time of Old, I think Cave men purchased bear claws to make them look fearless!!

With that said when I was a young airman I was awarded a medal for valor and when I went tdy to Guam I had a staff sergeant reach up and rip it off my uniform while saying I must be a fake because an e-4 couldn't possibly have one.

Some people need to be cautious when yelling fake!!!

On the other hand, During the 1st Gulf War I was working on a project out of Fort Benning and The US Army. There was a retired Rear Admiral who had his own small defense contracting company that had sold some very important devices to the US Navy Field Hospitals. For years this guy kissed butt with Nave purchasing officers, paying off active duty personel thru various means ( Part time paid work, trips to Hawaii) This guy had pictures of him in US Navy uniforms, he was a member of the Navy League, attended US Navy and Army functions. For years this went on.

He was really an ex used car salesman from Columbus Georgia who was an ex convicted Felon (Arsonist). The machines sold to the Navy were supposed to produce medical Oxygen for wounded Marines, They did not work, and if the 1st gulf war had gone Chemical and Biological it would have been a massive disaster for wounded soldiers.

The Navy declined to prosecute the man for fraud, in both cases???

You see the problem is much deeper than just people being fakes, One needs to look at the reasons. Are they doing it because they are pathetic geeks? Or are there more insidious reasons? access to information? selling things to the DOD?  often the DOD looks the other way when these cases involve Military officers and purchasing irregularities.