PAWG shuts down

[Gunner C]

The only bitterness I see is on your part in regard to the orange hat issue...do I detect jealousy in your tone? "Rangers lead the way"

There it is. 

You guys stole the Army Ranger Motto, too???  You ought to be shut down.  You're nothing but a bunch of wannabees.  That's why PAWG is in such trouble - if you can't be one, then look and sound like one. 

Graduates of the U.S. Army Ranger School lead the way.  PAWG "rangers" wear pretty orange hats.

GC
Not a Ranger School Graduate

[SARMedTech]

The 10 second ORMis a toll (just like suicide awareness training)  that in my opinion should have been on someones front burner before hand, now it appears that its a knee jerk reaction to show "someone" that at a command level "we are aware of the problem and have a 'program' in place to train and educate the rank and file of this terrible problem. " A sort of "...if they (them lowly members) had known about this and been able to watch out for it (insert safety or suicide or GTC or a dozen other problems that commanders get in trouble for) they would have been able to bring it to the commands attention before it became critical..."

Like was mentioned before it feels to me like the command level is blaming the membership for something they should have been on top of, yes its not truly punishment, but it certainly feels like it..especially if you were (though apparently the minority) the poeple that actually did your vehivle inspections, or used an ORM tool for mission/activity planning etc etc .  Its kind of a kick in the face to be made to fix/do something that you know you didnt screw up on....

mk

sarmed-

it feels and looks like the incompetent Wing leadership was trying to use punitive action to get results from the membership because that is exactly what happened. They screwed up, but if they can make it look like it was a non-compliant membership who caused all the trouble, then they are absolved and can sleep at night.  And it wasnt just punishment...it was threats and punishment.

[JayT]

If you can set your bitterness on top of your anger for just a moment, you will see that not many of us were "rooting against" the Wing. In fact, most of us were pulling for the membership. Those of us rooting against anything, at least in my own situation, were rooting for a change in leadership.  If you put a fire team into a hot zone and they all get cut down, I imagine (never having been in the military) that the inquiry starts with the Head Honcho. And the fact remains, which you seem to miss, that the ORM compliance mandate was a result of the safety snafus in PAWG, not the cause of the grounding. If the Wing royalty was paying attention to the overall "safety health" of their Wing, this whole situation could have been avoided. Instead, they were more worried about the proper method of violating regulations by crushing orange "Ranger" caps.

Excuse me...my last post was anything but "bitter" in fact it was positive and in the spirit of cohesiveness and cooperation.

The only bitterness I see is on your part in regard to the orange hat issue...do I detect jealousy in your tone? "Rangers lead the way"

No.........they don't..........Don't assume that we wanna be like you guys.

[ZigZag911]

To that end, officers who don't have their priorities straight should not be able to make it above squadron commander.

Instituting ORM is a step in the right direction, but not a quick fix to an already desperate situation.   

Ideally officers who don't have priorities straight should never become squadron commanders!

ORM as part of Level 1/Curry is a good way to initiate new members into CAP safety program.

Now that PA has accomplished it, don't be surprised if the rest of us get a mandate to take it, much like the OPSEC thing.

Certainly not a universal remedy for all that ails CAP safety-wise, but a reasonable first step.

[flyerthom]

Like was mentioned before it feels to me like the command level is blaming the membership for something they should have been on top of, yes its not truly punishment, but it certainly feels like it..especially if you were (though apparently the minority) the poeple that actually did your vehivle inspections, or used an ORM tool for mission/activity planning etc etc .  Its kind of a kick in the face to be made to fix/do something that you know you didnt screw up on....

mk

Hey Mark, is PA using the IMU? There is an automatic ORM tool in the briefing section. And there is a printable one if the computer turns into windoze.

[Alpha]

The compliance figures are looking better and better....National should be lifting the shut down very soon.

[Johnny Yuma]

"What does this really say?

About 1/3 of PAWG really gives a [darn], the rest we really have no clue why they're in the organization.

If they can't find an hour out of the past 3 weeks to get ORM and help get their Wing off the dime then they don't have the time for CAP. Unfortunately we're finding out this is a cancer throughout the entire organization.

Time to bust some folks to Patron status and maybe a few nonrenewals."

The figure of 1/3 is over a week old. Get with todays news or your comments are worthless.

I stand by what I said. PAWG at 3 weeks down had only 1/3 of their membership stand up and help get off the dime. That's not good.

The fact is PA is now close to 80% ORM compliant . In addition we are 100% air craft and van compliant. 100% Safety schedule compliant and better than 95% Safety Survey compliant.

This was accomplished in a little over 2 weeks in one of the largest Wings in the country.

All you arm chair quarterbacks especially those from outside of CAP, need to realize how big an accomplishment that is and give PA a standing ovation.

So how many members got rolled to PA-000 to accomplish this?

It still means you've got 20 percent of the membership that doesn't care whether or not you guys ever do anything ever again, for Chrissakes!

A standing ovation for doing something every other Wing's been doing all along? Methinks your Ranger roll is a little too tight...

Unfortunately it has become fashionable to kick a man when he is down in this country. You can see it in the news, in politics, hell even in video games. There was a time in America when we all rooted for one another to win. Especially when we are all on the same team.  Come on everyone...lighten up on PA. Remember there are 50 more Wings to go....you could be next!

No one at NHQ woke up one morning and said, "Hey, lets' screw with PAWG today."  Had they been doing what all the other wings were doing, like taking the Safety program seriously, it would never have happened.

No one here is kicking PAWG while they're down. They beat themselves up and smacked the ground hard all by themselves.

Unfortunately, this whole episode has again exposed another example that we have too many members who are unwilling or unable to step up to the plate when needed. This ugly fact goes well beyond PAWG I'm afraid.

[Eagle400]

To that end, officers who don't have their priorities straight should not be able to make it above squadron commander.

Instituting ORM is a step in the right direction, but not a quick fix to an already desperate situation.   

Ideally officers who don't have priorities straight should never become squadron commanders!

True, but we know how it works in CAP...

      1) Get promoted to Squadron Commander, screw up...

      2) Get promoted to Group Commander, screw up...

      3) Get promoted to Wing Commander, screw up...

      4) Get promoted to Region Commander, screw up...

      5) Get appointed to the National Board, screw up...

      6) Get promoted to National Commander.

What happened in PAWG happened because CAP allowed an incompetent officer to become Wing Commander and appoint other incompetent officers to serve in key positions within the wing.  This was a recipe for disaster, and was inevitable.

But that is what happens when a prized orange "ranger" hat becomes more important than the safety and welfare of the people in the wing.  Ditto with Hawk Mountain and the whole elitist "ranger" attitude in general.   

What it comes down to is a full-bird CAP colonel caring more about some pieces of fabric sewn together to form an article of clothing than the safety and well-being of living, breathing human beings.  The colonel deserves to be fired, plain and simple.   Otherwise, he might one day become National Commander.   

Remember Teflon Tony?  That's all I have to say.         

[FW]

I would sure like to see this email from the PA wing/cc on "rolling orange caps".
After all, we've seen every other email he's sent in the last couple of weeks concerning this thread.

And, CCSE, you're probably right.  In the last 25 years I've must have "screwed up" quite a bit.   However, I'll try not to "screw up" any more.  I don't want the CAP/CC job.  It just doesn't pay enough.


I am looking forward to the publication of the PAWG inspection.  When it comes out, I'm sure someone will post it on this forum;  even though it is a confidential document.  But then, from what I've seen from some of the posts, that's not a problem for the vocal minority making their personal agendas.

BTW, the wing scored an overall grade of "Successful" (satisfactory) on the inspection.  Hmmmm...  such a disaster.

[Eagle400]

I would sure like to see this email from the PA wing/cc on "rolling orange caps".
After all, we've seen every other email he's sent in the last couple of weeks concerning this thread.

Send mikeylikey a PM, I believe he's the one who first brought it up.     

And, CCSE, you're probably right.  In the last 25 years I've must have "screwed up" quite a bit.   However, I'll try not to "screw up" any more.  I don't want the CAP/CC job.  It just doesn't pay enough.

Wait, I'm confused.  Are you admitting to being the PAWG/CC? 

I am looking forward to the publication of the PAWG inspection.  When it comes out, I'm sure someone will post it on this forum;  even though it is a confidential document.  But then, from what I've seen from some of the posts, that's not a problem for the vocal minority making their personal agendas.

Playing the "agenda card" on this one is not advised... there's plenty of evidence of incompetence in CAP, and 9 times out of 10 it is because the system of checks and balances failed and people were promoted when they should not have.  I'm not just picking on PAWG by the way... the problem goes way beyond PAWG.   

BTW, the wing scored an overall grade of "Successful" (satisfactory) on the inspection.  Hmmmm...  such a disaster.

If someone digs a 50 foot hole and manages to climb 32 feet up from the bottom, would you consider that a success?

In other words, the wing being put on freeze overshadows the "satisfactory" rating they received.  This is a black eye that will never go away.   

[CadetProgramGuy]

The only bitterness I see is on your part in regard to the orange hat issue...do I detect jealousy in your tone? "Rangers lead the way"

You are correct.....Rangers do Lead the way.

What HM produces are NOT rangers.  You want rangers, join the Army.

[CadetProgramGuy]

MODS - Merge with other PA wing info please.

[MIKE]

MODS - Merge with other PA wing info please.

Done.

[Alpha]

The only bitterness I see is on your part in regard to the orange hat issue...do I detect jealousy in your tone? "Rangers lead the way"

You are correct.....Rangers do Lead the way.

What HM produces are NOT rangers.  You want rangers, join the Army.

There are all types of "Rangers".

If you are foolish enough to think there is any comparison between the U.S. Army Rangers and the Hawk Mountain Search and Rescue Rangers then it is only in your mind.
Not in the training at Hawk Mountain.  I suggest you broaden your vocabulary.

There are Texas Rangers, Park Rangers, Mountain Rangers, ski patrol rangers, Forest Rangers, etc, etc.

Hawk Mountain never advertised they were producing combat troops.

The term "Ranger" simply means " one who covers a lot of ground, often moving long distances rapidly to accomplish their goals"
To that definition the "Rangers" who graduate from HMRS are rangers in every meaning of the word. 

Using your logic then CAP "Pilots" are not real pilots...they would have to be called Airplane drivers or something....

[MIKE]

That thread has been so done... and locked.  Fair warning.

[JC004]

::sigh::

[DNall]

This one was due for lock a long time ago. There's a time & place & this went way past that quite a ways ago.

[Alpha]

This one was due for lock a long time ago. There's a time & place & this went way past that quite a ways ago.

What does "locked" mean?  It looks like we can still write here and it gets posted?

I only joined this site 2 days ago I don't understand what this means. 

[sarmed1]

It is amazinmg how this discussion digressed into a Rangers are the shiznit vs Rangers are the embodiement of all that is evil discussion...again.......

The basic fact is PA wing bombed the inspection as far as safety is concerned.  Somehow I doubt it has anything to do with colored hats or silly scarves or funny walks.  What it does have to do with is commanders at all levels all the way to the top (personally ultimately the top) not accepting the responsbility for allowing it to happen; ...bet we all know who would be standing up at the next Natioanl Boards accepting the national safety award if things were differant....

get off the Ranger hating (or loving depending on your opinion) that thread(s) died a painful death many times over....stick to the topic at hand, this has nothing to do with HMRS other than it happens to be in PA

mk

[CadetProgramGuy]

This one was due for lock a long time ago. There's a time & place & this went way past that quite a ways ago.

What does "locked" mean?  It looks like we can still write here and it gets posted?

I only joined this site 2 days ago I don't understand what this means. 

Lock or locked means that the thread is dead.  No more posting, no more silly banting that HM produces quality rangers, no more silly notions about orange hats being ranger rolled. No more believing that there are more than 1/3 of your wing is active.

At least not here anyways.