PAWG shuts down

[LittleIronPilot]

Complying with ORM on an individual member level seems as easy as falling off a log, but...

There are people everywhere (not just in PAWG) who don't have time to get things taken care of due to soccer-family syndrome, etc. Threatening to transfer members to Triple Zero is just plain wrong and PAWG leadership at all levels should be ashamed of themselves. The carrot is obviously being able to resume activity in the Wing, but to make the stick transferring members or eliminating their membership is totally inappropriate.  Makes one think that there might just be more wrong with PAWG than safety issues. Seems like the entire Wing might need a kick in its collective butt.  Nothing like leadership through threats when the leaders are the ones who have screwed things up.

Sorry man...but this is EXACTLY what PAWG, and the rest of CAP, needs. Get serious or get out. Period.

[darnit] I have quit other activities to invest time and money into making sure I am operationally ready and capable. Even with just one year in I am getting tired of hearing "well I have to take Suzy to piano, Johnny to soccer, and then there is the yard that needs mowing, and...etc, etc."

While it is true that we are an organization that relies on volunteers, it is a professional organization with serious missions. If you cannot "play" than you cannot play. However to hang on to the outskirts, to show up when you can but not keep yourself ready, when you cannot do something as simple as take a couple of weeknight evenings to finish something that MUST be done to get operational again...well then perhaps you do not have the time to appropriately commit yourself to CAP.

I am in the quality over quantity crowd.

[isuhawkeye]

This is an embarrassment,
the worse case scenario for CAP, and all the other CAP WINGS need to do some self reflection on just what the real facts are with each wing. CAWG has 2,000 seniors, if we have approx. 35% active that gives us maybe 700 who are doing the job. That may be a realistic number. Certainly for those of us who are active , 700 may be a high number. Nontheless, we are being dishonest to our Air Force and the American people by telling everyone we have 50,000, 60,000 or 40,000 members supporting 'Missions for America.

I believe in transparency in Government, by not doing so it creates a false sense of readiness, and when the Ball goes up we fall flat on our face. This does a disservice to the comunity and to our heritage. Maybe we need to trim the fat, be more open and honest.

When Iowa took a long hard look at truly operational numbers, and supported the concept of a leaner CAP the general membership of this forum revolted, and said that the wing was failing, and under poor leadership. 

It's all perspective

[SARMedTech]

Complying with ORM on an individual member level seems as easy as falling off a log, but...

There are people everywhere (not just in PAWG) who don't have time to get things taken care of due to soccer-family syndrome, etc. Threatening to transfer members to Triple Zero is just plain wrong and PAWG leadership at all levels should be ashamed of themselves. The carrot is obviously being able to resume activity in the Wing, but to make the stick transferring members or eliminating their membership is totally inappropriate.  Makes one think that there might just be more wrong with PAWG than safety issues. Seems like the entire Wing might need a kick in its collective butt.  Nothing like leadership through threats when the leaders are the ones who have screwed things up.

Sorry man...but this is EXACTLY what PAWG, and the rest of CAP, needs. Get serious or get out. Period.

[darnit] I have quit other activities to invest time and money into making sure I am operationally ready and capable. Even with just one year in I am getting tired of hearing "well I have to take Suzy to piano, Johnny to soccer, and then there is the yard that needs mowing, and...etc, etc."

While it is true that we are an organization that relies on volunteers, it is a professional organization with serious missions. If you cannot "play" than you cannot play. However to hang on to the outskirts, to show up when you can but not keep yourself ready, when you cannot do something as simple as take a couple of weeknight evenings to finish something that MUST be done to get operational again...well then perhaps you do not have the time to appropriately commit yourself to CAP.

I am in the quality over quantity crowd.

I value quality over quantity as well, but when you have volunteers who shell out a great deal of money for the privilege of volunteering, you have to be realistic. And when an entire wing goes so far down the toilet safety wise as to be put on lock down, the leadership should be taking a good hard look at itself and not threatening the membership. Further, I know members of the PAWG who feel that they exist in to support "The Mountain" in one way or another. Perhaps it is time not to threaten the membership but for a Wing wide leadership attitude adjustment, which is just what is happening now.

[DNall]

This is an embarrassment,
the worse case scenario for CAP, and all the other CAP WINGS need to do some self reflection on just what the real facts are with each wing. CAWG has 2,000 seniors, if we have approx. 35% active that gives us maybe 700 who are doing the job. That may be a realistic number. Certainly for those of us who are active , 700 may be a high number. Nontheless, we are being dishonest to our Air Force and the American people by telling everyone we have 50,000, 60,000 or 40,000 members supporting 'Missions for America.

I believe in transparency in Government, by not doing so it creates a false sense of readiness, and when the Ball goes up we fall flat on our face. This does a disservice to the comunity and to our heritage. Maybe we need to trim the fat, be more open and honest.

I don't know if 35% is absolutely accurate. I'd give any wing the benefit of the doubt for another 5% or so. It's not 50%, I think we're generally agreed on that though.

Someone cited california numbers... 2000 SMs, 35% is 700 active.... now break that down by the percentage of those active members that are qualified & active in ES, maybe 50%. So, 350 ES personnel to cover the state of CA? Now look at the geographic distribution. Do we have personnel to man an ICP, ACs, & all adult GTs enough to fill the geographic blocks the AF defines in the comm TA? Working those numbers, it's not remotely possible.

So, I agree strongly that we have to face reality & get real active participation/attendance numbers which are cross-ref'd to active ES participation. I think resources (vans/planes/radios/funding/etc) should be distributed with that new information. I think we need to help those trouble spots fix the situation. Just overall you can't fix things if you don't face them.

That said, a full out exposure of this situation to congress would result in CAP being shut down. Or at least funding being cut to a level at which we cannot operate. I hope these issues in PAWG & elsewhere do bring this issue to the front.

[RiverAux]

Can you cite where you get the information that a "significant percentage of our membership" does not have email?

Take a look at the capwatch download for your unit and see how many members have any email listed.  Then try to send an email to everyone in your unit based on those emails and see how many are invalid.  The percentage of those without email is going down, but it is still there.

[davidsinn]

I value quality over quantity as well, but when you have volunteers who shell out a great deal of money for the privilege of volunteering, you have to be realistic. And when an entire wing goes so far down the toilet safety wise as to be put on lock down, the leadership should be taking a good hard look at itself and not threatening the membership. Further, I know members of the PAWG who feel that they exist in to support "The Mountain" in one way or another. Perhaps it is time not to threaten the membership but for a Wing wide leadership attitude adjustment, which is just what is happening now.

Why does that Wing CC still have a job? If I was NER CC I would have canned the entire wing staff on the spot.

[SAR-EMT1]

I value quality over quantity as well, but when you have volunteers who shell out a great deal of money for the privilege of volunteering, you have to be realistic. And when an entire wing goes so far down the toilet safety wise as to be put on lock down, the leadership should be taking a good hard look at itself and not threatening the membership. Further, I know members of the PAWG who feel that they exist in to support "The Mountain" in one way or another. Perhaps it is time not to threaten the membership but for a Wing wide leadership attitude adjustment, which is just what is happening now.

Why does that Wing CC still have a job? If I was NER CC I would have canned the entire wing staff on the spot.

Because if you beat the puppy too badly the poor thing dies. The hit the Wing took was bad enough. Beheading the "Orange Beast" in addition to that would be a wound PAWG might never recover from.

[SarDragon]

Can you cite where you get the information that a "significant percentage of our membership" does not have email?

Take a look at the capwatch download for your unit and see how many members have any email listed.  Then try to send an email to everyone in your unit based on those emails and see how many are invalid.  The percentage of those without email is going down, but it is still there.

An even better way is to compare the number of names you get in the generated email address list with the listed member count on your eServices home page. Mine has a difference of 2. Only one of the listed addresses bounces, and I haven't seem him in seven years.

[Alpha]

THE TOP PRIORITY, THE ONLY THING ON YOUR CAP AGENDA MUST BE...ORM COMPLIANCE OF EVERY MEMBER!


Do these remedies seem drastic and harsh? Absolutely!

Is National giving PA Wing any choice but to comply? NO!

Do the group commanders and Wing staff understand what this will do to the squadrons in the wing, to their membership, to the morale of the cadets and new members? ..Oh yes! we understand completely. But PA WING is in a box and there is only one way out.
COMPLIANCE! WE MUST ACHIEVE IT by any means necessary. There is no choice but to act, and act decisively.

We have been sending emails out for two weeks marked "URGENT!" and "PRIORITY!" and yes some have responded , that is why we have 870 compliant members. But we must concentrate on the remaining 1330.
[/quote]

The wing Staff has shifted blame for thier failure in safety to the wing membership.  Shame on them!
[/quote]

They have NOT shifted the blame! ....there is no "blame" here to shift.  There is a directive from National that we all must comply with the ORM directive. What Wing Command has an obligation to do is get the ban lifted on on PA WNG ASAP. SO all the events, missions, cadet activities and most importantly ACTUAL MISSIONS that come up.

It is not punitive to move inactive or unresponsive members to squadron 000 it is just prudent to get the ban lifted. They fully understand there are members away on vacations, honymoons, job assignments, college, deployments , in the hospital...dozens of valid reasons for non compliance. But as long as National is playing "hard ball" and insists on 100% compliance....Wing is absolutely right to do what ever is necessary to get us up and running again. Those members can get back out of SQ 000 by simply doing the required ORM training when they can.

Why does every one think they are being punished when they are simply being asked to comply with a safety course??? 

[RiverAux]

Being told to do a course that no other Wing in the country has to do is a punishment that will not address the paperwork issues that got them into trouble and are the responsibility of a small number of members.  However, its national, not the Wing, that is directing the punishment. 

[Alpha]

Being told to do a course that no other Wing in the country has to do is a punishment that will not address the paperwork issues that got them into trouble and are the responsibility of a small number of members.  However, its national, not the Wing, that is directing the punishment. 

WHo is to say PA is not just the first Wing to have to comply with this directive. I would submit that when the Air Force gets to your state you better be ready.

PA has had a sterling safety record for over a decade. No air crashes or van crashes for years other than perhaps the sprained ankle on a ground team or a bee sting and yes a van or two has probably backed into a fence post here and there, but I mean serious bodily injury or deaths.

So this whole thing was over the lack of up to speed paperwork. Some here have said they wouldn't send their cadets to Hawk Mountain since PA can't keep the "turn signal bulbs changed" I doubt that person could make it htrough the Hawk Program. I have done the course several times and there is none better anywhere in the country.

I  truely believe national has shot form the hip on this one and never weighed the consiquences. PA will probably lose a few hundred members over this, and it wasn't even necessary.

[RiverAux]

If the course is really all that great, then it should be made a national requirement.  If not, it can only be viewed as a punishment for those that have sinned against the gods of unnecessary paperwork.

[Alpha]

That's $1,000 in diamond plate right there. Plus $200 in JD seats. The terms "fraud, waste and abuse" come to mind

THAT is A POV....do you really think PA WING would go for that??

Get real...I can't even get money for a copy machine!

[Alpha]

Let's not take shots at the PA Wing right now, they are obviously "down" and it could happen to your Wing or anyone's Wing.   Let's just wish them well and hope they can get past this.

Major Carrales...you are an officer and a gentleman.  Thank you for your understanding and kind words of support.

There are hindreds of dedicated men and women and cadets who serve in PA Wing and frankly deserve to be treated better than National has chosen to do.

Simply because some paperwork was misplaced they have mandated a daunting task for ANY organization to fulfill.. I doubt if even the Air oce could boast 100% compliance in any given area of concern. 

The statistic of 35% compliance has been tossed around here in this forum lately...I can tell you that was a week ago and PA is nearing 70% compliance since then.

I hope this PLAGUE is not visited upon other Wings in the Country, I would hate to see this cluster repeated!

[Alpha]

If the course is really all that great, then it should be made a national requirement.  If not, it can only be viewed as a punishment for those that have sinned against the gods of unnecessary paperwork.

The course is helpful but the SAREX's and Pilot training that has been cancelled because of this shut down is FAR MORE PRODUCTIVE than any written safety course.

As I said, I am not privy to the "politics" at work here, but A few causes to this action could be traced to some well known players...er..does Applebaum or Larry Kauffman ring a bell?  Any bruised Ego's in the house?  Hummmm?

[SAR-EMT1]

Alpha i don't know who you are, but lets refrain from talking smack while throwing out names.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me you are itching for a fight.

[Alpha]

Alpha i don't know who you are, but lets refrain from talking smack while throwing out names.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me you are itching for a fight.

You would be surprised "who I am". That's why I must remain annonymous.

But I have been in CAP more than half the time you have been on the planet.

So I am sure you know much more about "Smack" than I ever will.

As for your statement...

I would welcome a "fight" with these two... but the time and place has yet to present itself.

[DNall]

The course is helpful but the SAREX's and Pilot training that has been cancelled because of this shut down is FAR MORE PRODUCTIVE than any written safety course

Pay to play has always been the standard. You know very well you don't go flying without adequate flight planning, checklists, etc. This is not civilian general aviation. This is use of taxpayer resources is a safe, efficient, and preservable way.

Safety training at it's root is not all that useful, and that's not generally the point. The point is forced compliance with rules. If you can't or won't comply with the paperwork then you very likely will ignore the rules in action when it suits you. That's unacceptable.

Other then that, play nice!!

[Alpha]

The course is helpful but the SAREX's and Pilot training that has been cancelled because of this shut down is FAR MORE PRODUCTIVE than any written safety course

Pay to play has always been the standard. You know very well you don't go flying without adequate flight planning, checklists, etc. This is not civilian general aviation. This is use of taxpayer resources is a safe, efficient, and preservable way.

Safety training at it's root is not all that useful, and that's not generally the point. The point is forced compliance with rules. If you can't or won't comply with the paperwork then you very likely will ignore the rules in action when it suits you. That's unacceptable.

Other then that, play nice!!

Point well said and taken! You are correct in many ways, however there is the old "cutting off ones nose to spite their face" addage.  I believe we have a little of that happening here where PA WING Shut down is concerned. There certainly more productive and far less disruptive methods of going about this mandate.

[DNall]

Point well said and taken! You are correct in many ways, however there is the old "cutting off ones nose to spite their face" addage.  I believe we have a little of that happening here where PA WING Shut down is concerned. There certainly more productive and far less disruptive methods of going about this mandate.

I'm sure that is the case at the member level, but I can assure you this kind of thing is not done lightly. It is a measured response. If the wing could have been forced to comply by a lesser means then that would have been taken. However, if operations continue as normal then leadership can shuffle some paper around & you're back in business as before w/o significant oversight. That doesn't fix the problem.

While I understand you don't like the situation, and may even feel the AF/NHQ is over-reacting. I can assure you there is another very reasonable logical point of view on the other end of that decision. I would respectfully ask you to work within the system to fix the situation as expeditiously as possible, then move out & carry on with the mission as hopefully a new & better wing.