PAWG shuts down

[SARMedTech]

Interesting how threads get locked down for what the mods feel like is veering off topic but not for awarding the ass-clown award.

[tjaxe]

Mods, please don't shut down this topic... I think it's an important piece of discussion AND information. Thanks!!  Everyone else, please don't hijack this thread with this "award" stuff or off-topic items.

[Gunner C]

wing people wear blue hats.

The Wing Commander needs relieved for cause.  He had over 6 months to get the safety factors corrected after he took command.  It is no ones fault but his own.  He has an Executive Director paid for by the taxpays in PA that should have been on top of this crap.  That is why he is there.  I would also fire him.

NCWG's commander was relieved in 2000 after only a few months in command.  He had a third a/c accident (I believe it was his second) and got the ax.  He had put the programs in place but there was a great deal that had been ignored in NCWG for prolly 10 years.  Things had started turning around, albeit slowly.  I thought it was a dumb thing to do - he was a retired O-6 and, while he wasn't particularly liked, he was doing the right things (it was strong medicine and not too many folks liked the taste of it).

The PAWG/CC should be on notice, though.  Any backsliding within his command that isn't taken care of swiftly should prolly be delt with fairly harshly.  His command is at the balancing point.

GC

[FW]

The results are in:  1845, or so, members have responded.  That's  75% compliance.  I was told there were 225 members who are inactive and will be transfered to the "000" sq.   The rest will get ORM as soon as possible.  With these stats, PAWG should be running at full blast in a few days.

[Big_Ed]

Good.  :clap:

Question;  FW - Do you think this may become an add-on to level one and the Curry for new members?

[Pylon]

Does each individual member taking a quick ORM course change the entire, long-standing culture of an entire Wing?  Does it make them insta-safe?

[Eagle400]

Does each individual member taking a quick ORM course change the entire, long-standing culture of an entire Wing?  Does it make them insta-safe?

No, and neither does a wing commander who thinks that boxing ballcaps is the first thing that needs to be done after his wing is put on freeze.
Problems are supposed to be solved at the lowest level.  To that end, officers who don't have their priorities straight should not be able to make it above squadron commander.

Instituting ORM is a step in the right direction, but not a quick fix to an already desperate situation.   

[JC004]

Does each individual member taking a quick ORM course change the entire, long-standing culture of an entire Wing?  Does it make them insta-safe?

yup.   

[FW]

Good.  :clap:

Question;  FW - Do you think this may become an add-on to level one and the Curry for new members?

Does each individual member taking a quick ORM course change the entire, long-standing culture of an entire Wing?  Does it make them insta-safe?

yup.   

I have no opinion on when ORM should be introduced to members.  However, IMHO, it should be something every member goes over and, reviewed from time to time.  After all, we're talking "10 second ORM".

And I agree 100% with Colgan.  

[JC004]

I don't even know who required this.  I get the impression it was imposed by the inspectors. 

I don't know what the story has been under the first few months of Col Lee, or generally under Col A, but I attended a few conferences, mostly under Col Weiss and I knew that PA was getting those safety awards (and CD awards too IIRC).  I sort of calmed down the conference attendance, especially national, under Col A, so I dunno what was going on there. 

Of all the stuff I dabble in with CAP, I try to avoid being in charge of safety, expensive assets, or money if I can.  I can say that I never knew any of the past three wing kings (that's as long as I've been in) to have the attitude of safety last, like I have seen among other folks.

[sarmed1]

The 10 second ORMis a toll (just like suicide awareness training)  that in my opinion should have been on someones front burner before hand, now it appears that its a knee jerk reaction to show "someone" that at a command level "we are aware of the problem and have a 'program' in place to train and educate the rank and file of this terrible problem. " A sort of "...if they (them lowly members) had known about this and been able to watch out for it (insert safety or suicide or GTC or a dozen other problems that commanders get in trouble for) they would have been able to bring it to the commands attention before it became critical..."

Like was mentioned before it feels to me like the command level is blaming the membership for something they should have been on top of, yes its not truly punishment, but it certainly feels like it..especially if you were (though apparently the minority) the poeple that actually did your vehivle inspections, or used an ORM tool for mission/activity planning etc etc .  Its kind of a kick in the face to be made to fix/do something that you know you didnt screw up on....

mk

[Johnny Yuma]

This is an embarrassment,
the worse case scenario for CAP, and all the other CAP WINGS need to do some self reflection on just what the real facts are with each wing. CAWG has 2,000 seniors, if we have approx. 35% active that gives us maybe 700 who are doing the job. That may be a realistic number. Certainly for those of us who are active , 700 may be a high number. Nontheless, we are being dishonest to our Air Force and the American people by telling everyone we have 50,000, 60,000 or 40,000 members supporting 'Missions for America.

I believe in transparency in Government, by not doing so it creates a false sense of readiness, and when the Ball goes up we fall flat on our face. This does a disservice to the comunity and to our heritage. Maybe we need to trim the fat, be more open and honest.

When Iowa took a long hard look at truly operational numbers, and supported the concept of a leaner CAP the general membership of this forum revolted, and said that the wing was failing, and under poor leadership. 

It's all perspective

IAWG didn't fail, it simply forced CAP to see a cold hard fact they didn't want to see: The wanna-be's, Walter Mitty's and Hangar Commandoes do nothing for CAP but fill the rosters.

[Johnny Yuma]

This was an email sent out today on the situation in PAWG.

First let me thank all those who have responded to the recent flurry of demands by National to bring Pennsylvania Wing into compliance.

We are under an operational shut down. What that means is if some disaster were to happen right now and FEMA or PEMA or a local ES organization contacted us for our help, we would have to say NO! 

I see emails every day about squadrons planning family days, color guard meets, fund raisers etc.
I must tell you all that MUST be put on hold until we work out this problem with our membership.

I was sent a list this morning of all those in the Group who are in compliance and who are not.
I was shocked to see the names on the non compliant list. There are Squadron commanders, former squadron commanders, Deputy commanders, members of my own Group 1 staff, former Group Commanders,  current and former Safety officers...the list goes on.

THE TOP PRIORITY, THE ONLY THING ON YOUR CAP AGENDA MUST BE...ORM COMPLIANCE OF EVERY MEMBER!

After a lengthy phone conference between the Wing Command staff last night and the Group Commanders the following facts and remedies are before us.

Facts!

1. PAWING IS UNDER AN OPERATIONAL SHUT DOWN! Going into it's third week soon!

2. OF the approximately 2,200 members of PAWING so far only approx. 870 have complied with
    the ORM requirement.

3. The Operational shut down will NOT be lifted until we are in 100% compliance.

4. PAWING Commanders have an obligation to bring the Wing into 100% compliance ASAP by what ever means necessary.

Remedies!

We have until Midnight Sunday the 27th of April. or some or all of these remedies will be   
implemented. There is no other way!

1.  Contact every non-compliant member by phone and tell them how to accomplish the orm.
  (we have tried email for almost 2 weeks, it did get 35% response, but we need the other 65%.)

2.  Failing to complete by Sunday night, non compliant members can be transferred out of their   
     squadron or group into squadron 000.

3.  Non compliant squadrons can have their charter revoked.

4.  Some squadrons who lose enough members by their being sent to Sq.000, could fall below the
     15 member minimum and be reduced to a flight or closed.

Do these remedies seem drastic and harsh? Absolutely!

Is National giving PA Wing any choice but to comply? NO!

Do the group commanders and Wing staff understand what this will do to the squadrons in the wing, to their membership, to the morale of the cadets and new members? ..Oh yes! we understand completely. But PA WING is in a box and there is only one way out.
COMPLIANCE! WE MUST ACHIEVE IT by any means necessary. There is no choice but to act, and act decisively.

We have been sending emails out for two weeks marked "URGENT!" and "PRIORITY!" and yes some have responded , that is why we have 870 compliant members. But we must concentrate on the remaining 1330.

The wing Staff has shifted blame for thier failure in safety to the wing membership.  Shame on them!

What does this really say?

About 1/3 of PAWG really gives a [darn], the rest we really have no clue why they're in the organization.

If they can't find an hour out of the past 3 weeks to get ORM and help get their Wing off the dime then they don't have the time for CAP. Unfortunately we're finding out this is a cancer throughout the entire organization.

Time to bust some folks to Patron status and maybe a few nonrenewals.

[mikeylikey]

The results are in:  1845, or so, members have responded.  That's  75% compliance.  I was told there were 225 members who are inactive and will be transfered to the "000" sq.   The rest will get ORM as soon as possible.  With these stats, PAWG should be running at full blast in a few days.

Colonel, I don't know who gave you that number but it is slightly higher (by about 300)than what was reported officially at COB today.  (Mine comes from 2 individuals working at Wing HQ, bet you can't guess which two  ). 

Heck the Email box at wing was full yesterday and I know of dozens of people who could not get their email through to Wing.  I also know of some shady CAP Officers in 3 groups that forged signatures on the form they submitted to Wing stating that "YES, I read the ORM sheet" for their SQD members"  Integrity violations are one of the reasons we are in this mess. 

[Alpha]

"What does this really say?

About 1/3 of PAWG really gives a [darn], the rest we really have no clue why they're in the organization.

If they can't find an hour out of the past 3 weeks to get ORM and help get their Wing off the dime then they don't have the time for CAP. Unfortunately we're finding out this is a cancer throughout the entire organization.

Time to bust some folks to Patron status and maybe a few nonrenewals."

The figure of 1/3 is over a week old. Get with todays news or your comments are worthless.

The fact is PA is now close to 80% ORM compliant . In addition we are 100% air craft and van compliant. 100% Safety schedule compliant and better than 95% Safety Survey compliant.

This was accomplished in a little over 2 weeks in one of the largest Wings in the country.

All you arm chair quarterbacks especially those from outside of CAP, need to realize how big an accomplishment that is and give PA a standing ovation.

Unfortunately it has become fashionable to kick a man when he is down in this country. You can see it in the news, in politics, hell even in video games. There was a time in America when we all rooted for one another to win. Especially when we are all on the same team.  Come on everyone...lighten up on PA. Remember there are 50 more Wings to go....you could be next!

[SARMedTech]

If you can set your bitterness on top of your anger for just a moment, you will see that not many of us were "rooting against" the Wing. In fact, most of us were pulling for the membership. Those of us rooting against anything, at least in my own situation, were rooting for a change in leadership.  If you put a fire team into a hot zone and they all get cut down, I imagine (never having been in the military) that the inquiry starts with the Head Honcho. And the fact remains, which you seem to miss, that the ORM compliance mandate was a result of the safety snafus in PAWG, not the cause of the grounding. If the Wing royalty was paying attention to the overall "safety health" of their Wing, this whole situation could have been avoided. Instead, they were more worried about the proper method of violating regulations by crushing orange "Ranger" caps.

[FW]

Colonel, I don't know who gave you that number but it is slightly higher (by about 300)than what was reported officially at COB today.  (Mine comes from 2 individuals working at Wing HQ, bet you can't guess which two  ). 

Heck the Email box at wing was full yesterday and I know of dozens of people who could not get their email through to Wing.  I also know of some shady CAP Officers in 3 groups that forged signatures on the form they submitted to Wing stating that "YES, I read the ORM sheet" for their SQD members"  Integrity violations are one of the reasons we are in this mess. 

Mikey, be very careful of what you post on this forum.  You have just made some very serious accusations which I can not ignore.  Please PM me with details.  I have no problem going to the IG with this.  Understand though, anonymous complaints are not treated quite the same way as documented ones.

BTW, check your numbers again.  They may be higher than what I first reported.

[jimmydeanno]

The fact is PA is now close to 80% ORM compliant . In addition we are 100% air craft and van compliant. 100% Safety schedule compliant and better than 95% Safety Survey compliant.

This was accomplished in a little over 2 weeks in one of the largest Wings in the country.

All you arm chair quarterbacks especially those from outside of CAP, need to realize how big an accomplishment that is and give PA a standing ovation.

This is like giving the SSA a standing ovation because they changed their policies to prevent people from taking SSNs home. This situation shouldn't have happened in the first place and is a direct result of poor leadership.

When you are on the brink of being fired at work or failing a college class because you aren't doing the work you are supposed to you don't get kudos for doing things after the fact.

The only people that deserve any thanks are the general members of that wing who had to inconvenience their lives because of the leadership failures of the PAWG staff.  The wing staff members may be volunteers to with lives and such, but you guys still signed on for the job and agreed to do what was required.  Which apparantly did not happen.

I usually don't applaud students when they are getting a D instead of an F.  The wing staff of PA wasn't in the position of coming into a new job and "fixing" what was left behind, it is a case of reaping what you sow.  You created the situation.

I will measure the success of these efforts on how well things go from here.

[Alpha]

If you can set your bitterness on top of your anger for just a moment, you will see that not many of us were "rooting against" the Wing. In fact, most of us were pulling for the membership. Those of us rooting against anything, at least in my own situation, were rooting for a change in leadership.  If you put a fire team into a hot zone and they all get cut down, I imagine (never having been in the military) that the inquiry starts with the Head Honcho. And the fact remains, which you seem to miss, that the ORM compliance mandate was a result of the safety snafus in PAWG, not the cause of the grounding. If the Wing royalty was paying attention to the overall "safety health" of their Wing, this whole situation could have been avoided. Instead, they were more worried about the proper method of violating regulations by crushing orange "Ranger" caps.

Excuse me...my last post was anything but "bitter" in fact it was positive and in the spirit of cohesiveness and cooperation.

The only bitterness I see is on your part in regard to the orange hat issue...do I detect jealousy in your tone? "Rangers lead the way"

[mikeylikey]

The only bitterness I see is on your part in regard to the orange hat issue...do I detect jealousy in your tone? "Rangers lead the way"

There it is.