PAWG shuts down

[Alpha]

Wing deficiencies are Wing Command's problems. The fish stinks from the head down...or in this case from the orange ball cap down.

And it's Wings job to resolve them. By what ever means necessary.

From my Ranger rollled orange ball cap, to my chrome whistle, I support the Wing commanders decision to get us up to speed again ASAP.

Folks out there Ranger Roll a BALLCAP?

Shocking and horrific, isnt it? 

Whatever floats your boat.  They are all teenagers, gives them something to do.

[DNall]

Oh, I believe I surely can say that this punishment imposed by national and that Wing has threatened to disband squadrons over it is way out of proportion to the offense.

Now, I am just fine with stopping PA Wing activities over these offenses.  However, the proper way to get out of the mess is to fix the specific problems that were identified, not impose a new requirement for which there is no way on earth for the Wing to get compliant with in a reasonable period of time and not let them do something until they comply.

You aren't the inspection team there on the ground. You don't know the nature or depth of the offense. You don't know what else in addition to safety might have motivated this action. You don't know the attitude or competence of the people they dealt with & assessed on their ability to take corrective action w/ lesser motivation. You don't know the dynamic down chain from WgHQ. I don't know those things either.

What I do know is:
1) Neither one of none of us here have the power to overrule the shutdown or other tactics.

2) Whining about those tactics encourages people in that wing to feel they're being screwed over unjustly & therefor not to comply with the conditions to lift the shutdown.

3) The only way to lift that shutdown is to comply & force others to do so as fast as possible.

4) Anything that takes away from #3 is counter-productive, and contrary to good order & discipline.

5) They've been ordered to do this by competent authority. They have no further rights beyond compliance with that order. You are not in that chain of command. You are not in a chain of command that gives you oversight of the CAP-USAF inspection team or the resultant actions. Therefore, this is all securely out of your lane, and mine too.


Your role as a professional officer is to encourage rapid compliance within the system in order to restore operations as soon as possible. I may or may not agree with you on how this should have played out, if this was an overreaction, etc. Honestly, I don't have enough information to make a sound judgment & I've avoided doing so. I may have done things differently if I were making the call. There is very much room for that discussion & voice of dissent, however, that space exists AFTER this situation is passed. At that point we can discuss after action review in order to ensure better decisions are made in the future.

[mikeylikey]

And it's Wings job to resolve them. By what ever means necessary.

From my Ranger rollled orange ball cap, to my chrome whistle, I support the Wing commanders decision to get us up to speed again ASAP.

hmmmmm...........

[RiverAux]

Dnall, nice sentiments, but that is not the nature of this discussion board.  You're not going to convince me that SM Joe Blow who joined 3 months ago has done something worthy of being punished for in this arena. 

[JC004]

Wing deficiencies are Wing Command's problems. The fish stinks from the head down...or in this case from the orange ball cap down.

btw, wing people wear blue hats.  It's like setting a good example or something?  Ok...I dunno.

[mikeylikey]

Wing deficiencies are Wing Command's problems. The fish stinks from the head down...or in this case from the orange ball cap down.

btw, wing people wear blue hats.  It's like setting a good example or something?  OK...I dunno.

Thats because Wing staff don't want to look like clowns.  I mean, how can they say wear orange ballcaps, while they are wearing blue hats that have the Wing HQ shield on the front.  Double standard, and totally jacked up!  I hate PAWG leadership for reasons like this. 

[DNall]

Dnall, nice sentiments, but that is not the nature of this discussion board.  You're not going to convince me that SM Joe Blow who joined 3 months ago has done something worthy of being punished for in this arena. 

One team one fight right. Snuffy over there screws up & we all push. You MP tanks the turn & you all spin in.

Obviously there are people here that didn't personally do anything wrong. Are you seriously telling me the wing should stay operational so those folks don't get screwed over & we should go down the line finding everyone that did do something wrong by whatever proportion & penalize them individually to that extent? Again, the hundred year witch hunt. Do you want to fix the institutionalized problem & deliver the Wg a wakeup call, or do you want to worry about punishing people. Cause nowhere in our disciplinary guidelines does it say anything about ORM classes or halting wing operations. This is about the problem, not who is or is not to blame. That is a matter to deal with AFTER the fact.

In the meantime, this is me, repeatedly now, appealing to you (and others) as a CAP officer to enthusiastically support polices necessary to get the wing back in operation, even if you disagree. The time for that discussion is AFTER, not during when it has the effect of impeding efforts to turn the switch back on. When they're back in operation I'll be more than happy to discuss with you what should have been done & why. You might even find I agree with some aspects of what you're saying, but not how or when.

[flyerthom]

Wing deficiencies are Wing Command's problems. The fish stinks from the head down...or in this case from the orange ball cap down.

And it's Wings job to resolve them. By what ever means necessary.

From my Ranger rollled orange ball cap, to my chrome whistle, I support the Wing commanders decision to get us up to speed again ASAP.

Folks out there Ranger Roll a BALLCAP?

Shocking and horrific, isnt it? 

I wouldn't say that. Wish we had a :gack smiley.

[sarmed1]

wing people wear blue hats.

I do have to agree that one is a little hipocritacal though

back on track.....sure it is LT Snuffy the new guys fault/responsability.  IF the Wing won a wing wide commendation medal at the same time you bet he would put it on his uniform...so whay shouldnt he share in the down side of being a member too.

You know how many AF mandated suicide awareness briefings I have had to sit thru...no on in my unit has killed themselves in the 7 yers I have been in the Air Force...yet there I sit.  Why am I being punished for some other commanders lack of insight to his personnel's health and welfare.  Oh wait because the people in charge say its required...so I sit there an pay attention. 

mk

Spacing - MIKE

[mikeylikey]

wing people wear blue hats.

I do have to agree that one is a little hipocritacal though

back on track.....sure it is LT Snuffy the new guys fault/responsability.  IF the Wing won a wing wide commendation medal at the same time you bet he would put it on his uniform...so whay shouldnt he share in the down side of being a member too.

You know how many AF mandated suicide awareness briefings I have had to sit thru...no on in my unit has killed themselves in the 7 yers I have been in the Air Force...yet there I sit.  Why am I being punished for some other commanders lack of insight to his personnel's health and welfare.  Oh wait because the people in charge say its required...so I sit there an pay attention. 

mk

No, you sit through that briefing because eventually someone may present with signs of a possible suicide and you need to be aware of those signs.  I sit through the same briefings twice a year. 

I am betting you did not take a look at what PAWG members have to read for the ORM "briefing".  It has nothing to do with the reasons the wing was shut down.  Hell it has nothing to do with CAP, and surely has nothing to do with Cadets.  It is so far off base it is rather useless.  All it does is make the member prove he or she is active by using email.  I think there are ulterior motives behind it.  When I went to send my email stating I read the paper, I get a reply message (automated of course) requesting that I reply a second time to prove I was who I said I was.  Why the crap would I send the original email with my personal information proving I was who I was, if I have to prove it all over again a second time. 

The Wing Commander needs relieved for cause.  He had over 6 months to get the safety factors corrected after he took command.  It is no ones fault but his own.  He has an Executive Director paid for by the taxpays in PA that should have been on top of this crap.  That is why he is there.  I would also fire him.

[Alpha]

You really think we need to clean house at PA WING?

Mikey! I'm shocked......but then .......

it does take two or three months to get a CAP drivers license........

and then only after re-sending the application 2 or 3 times....HMMmmmm!

Maybe I agree with you.

[SJFedor]

I personally believed they needed to clean house at PAWG back when I was a member there. I'm not in tune w/ EVERYTHING that's goin on there, but from what it sounds like, they need it more then ever now.

[davidsinn]

You really think we need to clean house at PA WING?

Mikey! I'm shocked......but then .......

it does take two or three months to get a CAP drivers license........

and then only after re-sending the application 2 or 3 times....HMMmmmm!

Maybe I agree with you.

It takes 3 hours here in INWG. My CD/C took his to the wing staff meeting and walked out with the form signed.

[fyrfitrmedic]

You really think we need to clean house at PA WING?

Mikey! I'm shocked......but then .......

it does take two or three months to get a CAP drivers license........

and then only after re-sending the application 2 or 3 times....HMMmmmm!

Maybe I agree with you.

2-3 months is downright speedy for CAP licenses in PAWG.

[CASH172]

This was an email sent out today on the situation in PAWG.

Remedies!

We have until Midnight Sunday the 27th of April. or some or all of these remedies will be   
implemented. There is no other way!

1.  Contact every non-compliant member by phone and tell them how to accomplish the orm.
  (we have tried email for almost 2 weeks, it did get 35% response, but we need the other 65%.)

2.  Failing to complete by Sunday night, non compliant members can be transferred out of their   
     squadron or group into squadron 000.

3.  Non compliant squadrons can have their charter revoked.

4.  Some squadrons who lose enough members by their being sent to Sq.000, could fall below the
     15 member minimum and be reduced to a flight or closed.

Do these remedies seem drastic and harsh? Absolutely!

Is National giving PA Wing any choice but to comply? NO!

Almost time, what's the deal?

[Alpha]

This was an email sent out today on the situation in PAWG.

Remedies!

We have until Midnight Sunday the 27th of April. or some or all of these remedies will be   
implemented. There is no other way!

1.  Contact every non-compliant member by phone and tell them how to accomplish the orm.
  (we have tried email for almost 2 weeks, it did get 35% response, but we need the other 65%.)

2.  Failing to complete by Sunday night, non compliant members can be transferred out of their   
     squadron or group into squadron 000.

3.  Non compliant squadrons can have their charter revoked.

4.  Some squadrons who lose enough members by their being sent to Sq.000, could fall below the
     15 member minimum and be reduced to a flight or closed.

Do these remedies seem drastic and harsh? Absolutely!

Is National giving PA Wing any choice but to comply? NO!

Almost time, what's the deal?

Well the deal is. ...We'll know tomorrow sometime when all the weekends email and fax's are tallied up at Wing HQ.

We are expecting to be somewhere between 75 and 80% compliant by Monday.

It is the Wing command staff decision then to begin transferring members to the squadron 000 or have the squadron commanders 2-a them into "patron Member "status. One or the other until we are 100% compliant.

Hopefully this will lift the operational freeze by Tuesday or Wednesday.

We'll see.

[tjaxe]

Dnall, nice sentiments, but that is not the nature of this discussion board.  You're not going to convince me that SM Joe Blow who joined 3 months ago has done something worthy of being punished for in this arena. 

One team one fight right. Snuffy over there screws up & we all push. You MP tanks the turn & you all spin in.

Obviously there are people here that didn't personally do anything wrong. Are you seriously telling me the wing should stay operational so those folks don't get screwed over & we should go down the line finding everyone that did do something wrong by whatever proportion & penalize them individually to that extent? Again, the hundred year witch hunt. Do you want to fix the institutionalized problem & deliver the Wg a wakeup call, or do you want to worry about punishing people. Cause nowhere in our disciplinary guidelines does it say anything about ORM classes or halting wing operations. This is about the problem, not who is or is not to blame. That is a matter to deal with AFTER the fact.

In the meantime, this is me, repeatedly now, appealing to you (and others) as a CAP officer to enthusiastically support polices necessary to get the wing back in operation, even if you disagree. The time for that discussion is AFTER, not during when it has the effect of impeding efforts to turn the switch back on. When they're back in operation I'll be more than happy to discuss with you what should have been done & why. You might even find I agree with some aspects of what you're saying, but not how or when.

I don't see why discussing the matter on this board, in a give and take, and HOPEFULLY civilized manner, is seen as the antithesis of supporting the implementation of the policy.  I think the policy stinks to high heaven but that doesn't mean when I'm in contact with my squadron that I don't do everything in my power to get everyone to comply -- whether we like it or not. 

It's a frustrating situation and this board allows for some of that frustration to be vented here, where it should be safe to say one's opinions (within the guidelines of the board) rather than in a place where it's not good -- at the squadron.  I don't see any harm in saying here that I'm p.o.'d about the whole thing.  Just because I'm not happy about the situation, and I say so, doesn't automatically mean I'm not going to work to get the policy instituted as fast as $%^^$#@ possible. 

Just my humble opinion.

[DNall]

I don't see why discussing the matter on this board, in a give and take, and HOPEFULLY civilized manner, is seen as the antithesis of supporting the implementation of the policy.  I think the policy stinks to high heaven but that doesn't mean when I'm in contact with my squadron that I don't do everything in my power to get everyone to comply -- whether we like it or not. 

It's a frustrating situation and this board allows for some of that frustration to be vented here, where it should be safe to say one's opinions (within the guidelines of the board) rather than in a place where it's not good -- at the squadron.  I don't see any harm in saying here that I'm p.o.'d about the whole thing.  Just because I'm not happy about the situation, and I say so, doesn't automatically mean I'm not going to work to get the policy instituted as fast as $%^^$#@ possible. 

Just my humble opinion.

That can be true, but posts on this board are very widely viewed & do to an extent influence behavior. I'm not saying people go off & do whatever people here tell them. That's preposterous. But, this place often influences people's attitudes or comes up with bright ideas that do see the light of day. It's a lot more public then you think.

If your here in my wing at my mtg talking about this, I got no problem with it. However, doing that in front of PAWG is not necessarily a good thing. They already don't feel good about this. If they see supportive members nationwide raising hell about injustices, that just encourages an attitude that doesn't help attain the compliance necessary to get out from under this situation.

Like I said, I'm all for having that dissenting conversation. I think it's important to learn from our actions & the actions of others, good or bad. However, that has to be done after the fact or out of the view of that wg. Otherwise you're interfering with that chain of command. As an officer you do have a responsibility to be professional and bite you tongue from time to time, even if just temporarily.

That's all I'm trying to say, and with all due respect to others, some of whom I know feel strongly about the issues.

[isuhawkeye]

I don't see why discussing the matter on this board, in a give and take, and HOPEFULLY civilized manner, is seen as the antithesis of supporting the implementation of the policy.  I think the policy stinks to high heaven but that doesn't mean when I'm in contact with my squadron that I don't do everything in my power to get everyone to comply -- whether we like it or not. 

It's a frustrating situation and this board allows for some of that frustration to be vented here, where it should be safe to say one's opinions (within the guidelines of the board) rather than in a place where it's not good -- at the squadron.  I don't see any harm in saying here that I'm p.o.'d about the whole thing.  Just because I'm not happy about the situation, and I say so, doesn't automatically mean I'm not going to work to get the policy instituted as fast as $%^^$#@ possible.

The problem is that posting here has a much broader reach than even discussing issues with your squadron.  Right or wrong, this board allows non members (Like Myself) a glimpse into the inner workings of current CAP issues. 

[isuhawkeye]

^^^^ My point exactly.

I dont want to derail this conversation, but.....

          I continue to get phone calls about the Iowa Wing from Emergency response coordinators in this state.  Many of them frequent this, and other sites.  How much do you think that the previous post helped in their attempt to rebuild their professional image. 

Back to the ass clown award......  or what ever