Winter Board 2008

[DC]

wait so we keep the command patch with the "US" on it?

No. The US was removed from the command patch. Later, there was a motion to allow the previous design command patch with USAF Aux to be allowed on the uniform, (not on vehicles or aircraft) and that was defeated.

That sucks... I always felt really pumped up when I saw U.S. Air Force Auxiliary on a patch or decal.

What was the discussion about it?

The concern is that if we assist a law enforcement agency there could be a violation of posse comitatus if USAF Aux is displayed

That's absolute bull. If that is such a big concern then why didn't it come up when the patch was initially approved?

Rediculous...

[Eclipse]

What he said.

At some point we need to table to notion that what are uniforms are (or are not) have anything to do with
our POSSE COM status, relationship to the USAF, or the amount of missions we get (or do not get).

POSSE COM discussions happen when MOU's are being written, as a mission is being discussed, and/or in the AAR / Courtroom.

It is not in anyway affected by the logo on the door / tail / or business cards.

[Major Carrales]

Looks like the REGIONAL CAP UNIFORM, I once joked about make become a reality.  Imagine all the State in the Union, and former Confederacy, with at least one radically different Field Uniform.

Fifty-two different uniforms added to the already engorged CAP uniform closet.

Can't say anything good will come from this...but wait, why not join in.

CAP is yet to have a Mariachi field Jacket (If Ted Kennedy can start spouting Jalisco, then CAP may need these in the Southwestern WINGS), Royal Canadian Red Tunics (can't have the Neighbors to the north left out...eh?), a Field Kilt (nothing says " your in the field" like a wee bonnie breeze), a Confederate Gray Tunic with Kepi (I already own one!!!) and the return of the Guyaberrera Shirt (hold on to your hat KACH!).

That's a joke, however, on a more serious note.

Now, who is going to oversee this and how far can it really get?

[FW]

The concern is that if we assist a law enforcement agency there could be a violation of posse comitatus if USAF Aux is displayed

As far as the command patch goes:
There is no concern for Posse  Comitatus.  The main reason for dropping this design from consideration has to do with "branding".  Everything we do is under the name of "Civil Air Patrol".  We want the public and our customers to know who we are.  It has been decided by the powers that be "Civil Air Patrol" is what we are and it is how we should be known.  End of Story.

BTW, our corporate seal hasn't changed.  It still says "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" on top.

[jeders]

BTW, our corporate seal hasn't changed.  It still says "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" on top.

Which means there's no reason for our command patch to have USAF Aux on it, especially since the USAF Aux one also had CAP on it.

But arguing this is pointless. Whether we like it or not, a command patch design has been decided on and that's what we're gonna be wearing.

[PHall]

California has a special uniform?  What is it?

I didn't see the part where they discussed it but I think they're talking about this one:



http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3316.msg63149#msg63149
http://cawg.cap.gov/files/manuals/cawgm39-1.pdf

That is HIDEOUS!

Rant On

Ah... CAWG bashing again.  Folks if you don't know anything about it then pipe down.  The local county SO's are in charge of all SAR operations in their counties.  If they need assistance they request CAP to come out and play. Their uniform is the orange shirt with either blue/khaki pants.  We were asked to wear the same uniform in many parts of the State.  Plus I am not too much into concealment when I am in the woods doing a line search.

The new CAWG/CC stepped up to the plate and killed the uniform combo until it was approved by the Board.  Guess what, we got it approved, democracy at action!!!!

Rant Off

Thats cool, but can you guys at least have matching tapes?

The tapes do match, if you would look a little closer you will notice that all of the name tapes have been blacked out.

[cferron]

What're the patches on the right shoulder with the six-pointed star?  Look like county sheriff patches...I assume they're SAR patches of some sort?

[sardak]

The blue and yellow patches with the star are the California Office of Emergency Services SAR patches.  SAR falls under the law enforcement division of OES.

Mike

[cferron]

Interesting...so does each individual county sheriff in CA have jurisdiction over his/her particular county (as in Colorado) or is it all under one state umbrella (sorry about the topic drift...just curious).

[sardak]

The sheriff is responsible for SAR within his/her county, just like Colorado.  In Colorado, the Colorado SAR Board does much of what OES does for SAR.  One of the biggest differences is that for aircraft and ELT missions, AFRCC calls Cal OES, which then contacts CAWG, and CAP is assigned a state mission number in addition to an AFRCC number.  In Colorado, AFRCC contacts COWG directly.  Here is the description of what OES does.

The Law Enforcement Branch is charged with the responsibility of coordinating state mutual aid for search and rescue in California. In addition, it receives and coordinates interstate requests under the auspices of the National Search and Rescue Plan. The branch also coordinates all local requests for state and Federal agency assistance. Because search and rescue missions are often life threatening, requests for out- of-county, state or Federal resources can be made directly to OES.

[/off topic]

Mike

[SarDragon]

CAWG GT picture removed. My pic, hosted on my site.

Yes, the names were blacked out.

[_]

Wow.  The first instinct of so many people here is to jump to bashing people.  California is cereal land?  Where did that come from?  Have you been waiting long to pull out that clever little phrase?  The uniform serves a purpose in the place it was created and can serve a purpose elsewhere.  If you don't like it that's fine but calling it hideous it's completely inappropriate.  I didn't know there was an ICS position for fashion police.  Are there members here that have so much frustration and this is the only place they can let it out?  Bashing people serves absolutely no purpose.  I am in favor of this uniform.  I believe it is a good idea.  I even tried to carry on a conversation in the other thread about why I thought it was a good thing but after a while the same thing happened there that has happened here.  Some people don't like it and instead of discussing it they attack with all they have.  I know most people at this point in the post have stopped reading or are in the process of posting a reply to flame me but this has really got to stop.

Things will never be the way each of us individually think it should.  Get over it, stop attacking people and ideas, and carry on.

SarDragon I apologize for the responses to the picture.  I did not intend to put it out as flame bait.

[mikeylikey]

^ I only saw it as another needless expense to the membership.  And the blanket approval for other wings, means anything can now be prescribed for no reason.  I see this as a way to get Orange T-shirts and whistle chains into everyone's possession, nothing more.

[Major Carrales]

Wow.  The first instinct of so many people here is to jump to bashing people.  California is cereal land?  Where did that come from?  Have you been waiting long to pull out that clever little phrase?  The uniform serves a purpose in the place it was created and can serve a purpose elsewhere.  If you don't like it that's fine but calling it hideous it's completely inappropriate.  I didn't know there was an ICS position for fashion police.   Are there members here that have so much frustration and this is the only place they can let it out?  Bashing people serves absolutely no purpose.   I am in favor of this uniform.  I believe it is a good idea.  I even tried to carry on a conversation in the other thread about why I thought it was a good thing but after a while the same thing happened there that has happened here.  Some people don't like it and instead of discussing it they attack with all they have.  I know most people at this point in the post have stopped reading or are in the process of posting a reply to flame me but this has really got to stop.
Things will never be the way each of us individually think it should.  Get over it, stop attacking people and ideas, and carry on.

SarDragon I apologize for the responses to the picture.  I did not intend to put it out as flame bait.

The above BOLDED and RED BOLDED are in conflict with one another. 

The uniform photo that was posted demonstrated a uniform with clear violations to CAP sovereignty as a unified National Organization and was, at the time, against CAPM 39-1.  My issue with the new policy was that it might be the reality that CAP will have 52 Uniform variants.   I don't think a CONFEDERATED CAP is a good idea.  I mean this uniform has a patch that could clearly be mistaken for Law Enforcement complete with the necesary "LE Star."

This is also a good example of why CAP should never be given over to the National and State Guards.

Believe me, there are more issue in this topic than just the ridicule of a photo or "another unifrom thread."

The California "Cereal" comment was out of line.

[SarDragon]

The orange shirt is cheaper than a BDU shirt. By the time folks will be needing to buy one, they will have been in CAP long enough to understand the additional expenses over and above the annual dues. It was treated as an optional, but recommended, item for ground team personnel.

[DrJbdm]

Ok, in the interest of changing the topic and getting back on track... When you say that the idea of removing the silver braid from the Corporate uniform jacket was "tabled indefinitely", does that mean it will not be brought up again and that the issue is dead? Is there any chance of this changing in Aug at the next board meeting or are we stuck for years with this ugly thing?

  By the way, to comment on the command patch, I understand that the purpose for making it read Civil Air Patrol is in branding, but I think our leaders forget one major point, U.S. Air Force Aux is a big attention getter and would do wonders for a better brand then just Civil Air Patrol.

I just think it's that our leaders all have a corporate mentality and want to distance CAP from being military. Give it a few years, it may swing back to the direction that I like. every 10 years or so it tends to swing in one direction or the other.

[_]

Ok, in the interest of changing the topic and getting back on track... When you say that the idea of removing the silver braid from the Corporate uniform jacket was "tabled indefinitely", does that mean it will not be brought up again and that the issue is dead? Is there any chance of this changing in Aug at the next board meeting or are we stuck for years with this ugly thing?

It means the issue has not been decided upon and they don't want to force the matter night now.  It can be brought up again but it won't be considered an leftover open item.  The discussion started going back and forth about whether it made us look more or less like a military officer and the concern about the number of uniform changes was brought up.  The discussion didn't seem to be getting anywhere so the motion to table indefinably was presented to get rid of the issue for the time being.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Wow.  The first instinct of so many people here is to jump to bashing people.  California is cereal land?  Where did that come from?  Have you been waiting long to pull out that clever little phrase?  The uniform serves a purpose in the place it was created and can serve a purpose elsewhere.  If you don't like it that's fine but calling it hideous it's completely inappropriate.  I didn't know there was an ICS position for fashion police.   Are there members here that have so much frustration and this is the only place they can let it out?  Bashing people serves absolutely no purpose.   I am in favor of this uniform.  I believe it is a good idea.  I even tried to carry on a conversation in the other thread about why I thought it was a good thing but after a while the same thing happened there that has happened here.  Some people don't like it and instead of discussing it they attack with all they have.  I know most people at this point in the post have stopped reading or are in the process of posting a reply to flame me but this has really got to stop.
Things will never be the way each of us individually think it should.  Get over it, stop attacking people and ideas, and carry on.

SarDragon I apologize for the responses to the picture.  I did not intend to put it out as flame bait.

The above BOLDED and RED BOLDED are in conflict with one another. 

The uniform photo that was posted demonstrated a uniform with clear violations to CAP sovereignty as a unified National Organization and was, at the time, against CAPM 39-1.  My issue with the new policy was that it might be the reality that CAP will have 52 Uniform variants.   I don't think a CONFEDERATED CAP is a good idea.  I mean this uniform has a patch that could clearly be mistaken for Law Enforcement complete with the necesary "LE Star."

This is also a good example of why CAP should never be given over to the National and State Guards.

Believe me, there are more issue in this topic than just the ridicule of a photo or "another unifrom thread."

I have to agree with Maj. Carrales.  We are the auxiliary of the US Air Force.  We should wear our own uniform.  I realize that California has "Issues" with the uniform of the United States, but that is their problem, not ours.  Perhaps, if California wants to dictate that AF Aux. personnel refrain from wearing the uniform of their country, we should get out of the Ground Team business in California.  Make them provide and train their own ground teams to work with our aircraft, and then they can dress as nuns if they want to, it won't affect us.

I disagree about placing CAP under the National Guard, though.  The National Guard still wears the same uniform nationwide.

[Major Carrales]

I disagree about placing CAP under the National Guard, though.  The National Guard still wears the same uniform nationwide.

Ah, one of the few points where "Smilin' Kach" and "Sparky" seem to disagree.  The way people argue about ribbons and the like calling people "South American Dictators" (not my words) I can't wait to see a migrant CAP Officer wearing the State Ribbons of Five States. 

[DrJbdm]

Thanks for the info, I didn't get to watch the video feed. It does seem that our leadership has a big aversion to appearing to be military at all. They actually argued about rather it made us look too military or not? wow, CAP is a far different CAP then one I belonged to as a cadet in the 80's.

 I hope we one day change back to wanting to be military and that the anti military zealots who are in charge now don't forever change CAP into being a non-military flying club/boyscout organization.