Alaska Wing and Bear Repellant

Started by ♠SARKID♠, October 19, 2007, 03:46:12 AM

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♠SARKID♠

Read this from NHQ first,
Repellant Story

Okay, first off, I'm not here to argue this as a firearm infraction.  And please don't let this thread turn into said topic.

What I'm curious is whether or not other wings use this.  I know for a fact that Wisconsin has a large bear population.  How do I know?  Because my family has about 10 or more eyewitness, photographed accounts of bears at and around our Crivitz, WI cottage (Most in our yard!  One took a nap by our feeder for about an hour.)  And what about other wings?  All of the northern border states have large bear populations, and how about the squadrons around Yellowstone National Park?

Its not limited to just bears either.  Bobcats, mountain lions, moose, boar, peccaries (javalin) just to name a few. Oh, and don't forget the platypus (the males are venomous! No lie!)
If you are sending a team out into the thick woods, they could be a mile's hike away from any form of protection or shelter from wild animal attacks.  Equipping GTs witha non-lethal, short range deterrent pepper spray could be an effective way to prevent injury and loss of life to our members.  We all remember how not long ago a CAP aircraft crashed taking the lives of all 3 crew members.  We all felt the sadness and loss that came with losing one of our own.  How would we feel knowing that we lost five of our finest to a bear attack that could have been prevented?  Not to mention the chance of the team having cadets!

The pepper spray doesn't have to be part of the standard GT gear.  That would eliminate having it along at airshows, public events, etc where it could be seen as a show of force.  A few cans could quite easily be stored in the GT's vehicle equipment for distribution in the field.

I bring this up because I know from experience that these threats are out there. Attacks are possible and, eventually, will happen.  Its only a matter of time before, heaven forbid, a GT is going to accidentally stumble upon mama bear and end up in a situation they aren't prepared to handle.

jeders

Personally I think that this is a great thing for safety. And I thought that I heard at some point that there was some exception to the firearm rule in places like Alaska for precisely this reason, though I find nothing in the national regs about that.

I also think that it's something that could be useful in other parts of the country where animals such as coyotes, wolves, etc. are found.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

wingnut

Hey we have mountain lions eating people in California, I think we should be able to carry a 9mm, wait what about a UDF team in Compton, they should have m60s mounted on the roof.

I have to use pepper spray on my Girlfriend every time I get called on a mission

TankerT

First of all...

Pepper spray probably isn't going to do much but irk the bear, and make the situation more dangerous.

2nd - 9mm is about the same.  A .45 won't do much either.  You need some hefty firepower against a bear. 

Now, I'm from as far North as Crivitz, just to the west.  Seen many a bear, etc.  I've been on countless Missions, Practice Missions and just plain camping and hiking trips.  Never had a problem though.  You make noise, and play it smart, you shouldn't have issues.

Yes, I've been close to lots of wildlife.  Normally, they're scared of you, and bolt.  The only thing I would be really worried about are wolves.  But, that's my opinion.

However, I personally think that if we arm members, we're looking at a higher probability of injury from a firearm incident than a bear mauling.


/Insert Snappy Comment Here

Steve Silverwood

Quote from: jeders on October 19, 2007, 04:08:41 AM
Personally I think that this is a great thing for safety. And I thought that I heard at some point that there was some exception to the firearm rule in places like Alaska for precisely this reason, though I find nothing in the national regs about that.

I also think that it's something that could be useful in other parts of the country where animals such as coyotes, wolves, etc. are found.

Pepper spray is a great tool to have handy in the woods, especially up in Alaska.  (That's home for me, by the way -- Anchorage and Fairbanks mainly.)  And training in the proper use is essential, so I'm glad they observed that precaution.

I'm well familiar with the bear situation in Alaska, mainly in the regions of the interior (Fairbanks, Denali Park), south-central (Anchorage, Kenai Peninsula) and southeastern ("panhandle") areas from Skagway down to Ketchikan).  Given the proper precautions, the bears are happy to leave you alone as long as you keep your distance and treat them with due respect and caution -- never surprise them, never get between a bear and his/her food, and never get between a mama and her cubs.

Same cautions and hazards apply where moose are involved, too.  They may look dumber than Bullwinkle, and they're generally peaceful, but if you rile 'em up they'll stomp the stuffing out of you without batting an eye. 

Example: there was an incident on the bike/jogging trails near the University of Alaska in Anchorage not too long ago.  A moose was being tormented by some boozed-up students over a period of time.  The moose finally had enough, and took it out on the next person she encountered -- which was unfortunately an older gentleman who wasn't able to run fast enough to get out of her way, and paid for it with his life.  The moose had to be hunted down and destroyed as a result.

And yes, Alaska Wing at one time (back in the 70s and 80s) permitted firearms in the survival gear, providing safety precautions were observed. I don't know of anyone up there who flew GA aircraft and didn't have some sort of firearm (usually a large hand gun) in the survival gear.  I don't know what AKWG policy is these days, though.

Quote from: TankerT on October 19, 2007, 02:35:46 PM
Pepper spray probably isn't going to do much but irk the bear, and make the situation more dangerous.

2nd - 9mm is about the same.  A .45 won't do much either.  You need some hefty firepower against a bear. 

If you know how to use it, pepper spray can deter a bear.  That's what the training was all about.

Correct re: the gun, though -- you'd have to be a deadeye crack shot to take down a bear with a handgun (unless you pack one of those fifty-cal monsters they're selling these days, and maybe not even then).  Large-caliber rifles are the best bet.
-- //Steve//

Steve Silverwood
kb6ojs@arrl.net

♠SARKID♠

Quote from: TankerT on October 19, 2007, 02:35:46 PM
Pepper spray probably isn't going to do much but irk the bear, and make the situation more dangerous.

I disagree.  Bears noses, eyes, and throat have have the same mucous membrane like qualities as a human.  This means that they feel the exact same sensations of pain, blindness, and closing of the throat that human does when maced.  Bears are tough, but they are smart enough to know when they are beat.

I found this video online of a bear being sprayed by the mace.  Its not exactly the best choice that these guys had, and I dont condone the tactic in this case, but I post it only to display the effectiveness of the bear mace.  Its at the very very end of the video when the bear gets maced.

*PROFANITY*PROFANITY*PROFANITY*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pLsM2ijRao
*PROFANITY*PROFANITY*PROFANITY*

After the bear is maced, you hear one of the men say
"That didnt do anything, he's licking it off!"
Of course the bear is going to try and lick it off!  If you were a bear and all of a sudden, orange mist covered your face and caused extreme pain, you would try and get it off too.  Just like as a human, If you're clothes caught fire and you started feeling pain, you would try and put the fire out; same situation.

I agree with what you said about giving them their space, being loud, and the usual prevention tactics, but not all encounters are prevented.  Eventually someone is going to come in contact with a bear, and not know how to get out of the situation, or handle it correctly.

tribalelder

WE ARE HERE ON CAPTALK BECAUSE WE ALL CARE ABOUT THE PROGRAM. We may not always agree and we should not always agree.  One of our strengths as an organization is that we didn't all go to the same school, so we all know how to do something different and differently. 
Since we all care about CAP, its members and our missions, sometimes our discussions will be animated, but they should always civil -- after all, it's in our name.

RiverAux

There are black bears and mountain lions across many parts of the US, but the risk of them harming a CAP member is absurdly low.  Personally, I think our ground teams are much more at risk of injury from coming in contact with people's dogs.

Is the risk high enough to justify carrying such an item?  In places where they have grizzly bears -- yes.  Black bear and mountain lion areas -- probably not, but I wouldn't have a major problem with it being part of the program. 

 

Steve Silverwood

Quote from: tribalelder on October 19, 2007, 05:26:54 PM
2004 story cyclist fights off Grizzly.

Note last line - 'You want the big can."

http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2004/09/06/wyoming/export171872.txt

There was a little news item in the Orlando Sentinel a few months ago about an ex-Marine whose family was being threatened by a bear.  He grabbed a big honkin' log and whacked the bear with it.  Killed the bear!

Moral: Don't f*** with the Marines!  And NEVER f*** with a Marine's family!

I may still have it at home, let me know if you want me to scan and post it.

Quote from: RiverAux on October 19, 2007, 05:32:30 PM
There are black bears and mountain lions across many parts of the US, but the risk of them harming a CAP member is absurdly low.  Personally, I think our ground teams are much more at risk of injury from coming in contact with people's dogs.

Is the risk high enough to justify carrying such an item?  In places where they have grizzly bears -- yes.  Black bear and mountain lion areas -- probably not, but I wouldn't have a major problem with it being part of the program. 

The can isn't that big, it can be carried on the belt, and it's a cheap insurance policy.  As long as people don't screw around with the stuff, and learn how to properly use it, it makes perfect sense to include it in your GT gear. 

It should also help with the dogs you mentioned.
-- //Steve//

Steve Silverwood
kb6ojs@arrl.net

TankerT

Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on October 19, 2007, 04:25:33 PM
Quote from: TankerT on October 19, 2007, 02:35:46 PM
Pepper spray probably isn't going to do much but irk the bear, and make the situation more dangerous.

I disagree.  Bears noses, eyes, and throat have have the same mucous membrane like qualities as a human.  This means that they feel the exact same sensations of pain, blindness, and closing of the throat that human does when maced.  Bears are tough, but they are smart enough to know when they are beat.

OK.  I'll buy that.  I am skeptical that they feel everything exactly the same, as... well... you can't actually ask a bear what sensations they are feeling.  But, it is a reasonable comparison.

That being said, I would think that some sprays would be better than others to an animal attack type situation.  And, as Mr. Silverwood alludes to, the training is important.

Now, this is an interesting point, so I wonder if CAP has a policy against mace or pepper spray. 

I can state, that I would not go out on a ground team with anyone carrying a firearm, except for maybe a few people that I know have in depth weapons training.  (And myself, but I have had in-depth training in about 8 different military weapons.)  Just too many people are stupid with firearms.  (I think our state's pass and forget hunter safety course is laughable.)

This is an interesting point though, as while I don't think a bear attack in this state is likely at all, there is an increasing number of reports of attacks by wolves. 

Anyone know if CAP has a policy regarding sprays?

/Insert Snappy Comment Here

RiverAux

CAPR 900-3
Quote2. Other Dangerous Weapons. Other than as provided for in paragraph 1 above, members engaged in CAP activities are prohibited from possessing or using weapons as defined by local state statutes as "dangerous."
The paragraph 1 referred to firearms. 

So, its possible that having them might not be allowed in some localities.

♠SARKID♠

Quote
I think our state's pass and forget hunter safety course is laughable.

That is entirely dependent on who's course you take.  I am a WI certified hunter's safety instructor, and have the privilege of teaching what is widely recognized as the best HS program in the state.  We have extremely well trained instructors, and EVERY day of class students are working hands on with firearms to prepare them for real life use.  When it comes down to field day, our student's knowledge and skills beats that of other classes by tenfold.

[/topic drift]

Quote
This is an interesting point though, as while I don't think a bear attack in this state is likely at all, there is an increasing number of reports of attacks by wolves.

You are right about those wolves.  About 45 minuets north east of my cottage is a wolf pack that has been slowly growing in number.  They have been reportedly attacking farm animals, and I can see how someone wandering in the woods could be victim of an attack.
As for bear attacks, I do feel them to be a threat.  When I walk around up north, I always keep my head on a swivel, checking behind me all the time.  I honestly feel vulnerable without a firearm when walking through the woods.   Even with a gun, its no guarantee.  I've asked my dad to email me some of the pictures that we've taken of bears near our place, I'll post when I get them.

♠SARKID♠

Quote from: RiverAux on October 19, 2007, 06:42:00 PM
CAPR 900-3
Quote2. Other Dangerous Weapons. Other than as provided for in paragraph 1 above, members engaged in CAP activities are prohibited from possessing or using weapons as defined by local state statutes as "dangerous."
The paragraph 1 referred to firearms. 

So, its possible that having them might not be allowed in some localities.

Did a bit of research and came up with this for Wisconsin.
I pulled this right of the WI Dept of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection.

http://www.datcp.state.wi.us/cp/consumerinfo/cp/factsheets/pepper_spray.jsp

Steve Silverwood

Quote from: RiverAux on October 19, 2007, 06:42:00 PM
CAPR 900-3
Quote2. Other Dangerous Weapons. Other than as provided for in paragraph 1 above, members engaged in CAP activities are prohibited from possessing or using weapons as defined by local state statutes as "dangerous."
The paragraph 1 referred to firearms. 

So, its possible that having them might not be allowed in some localities.

Chemical mace would probably qualify as dangerous, and I wouldn't want something like that in the hands of someone who hasn't been specifically trained in how to use it (and how not to use it!), but I doubt that pepper spray would qualify.

Quote from: TankerT on October 19, 2007, 06:23:07 PM
I can state, that I would not go out on a ground team with anyone carrying a firearm, except for maybe a few people that I know have in depth weapons training.  (And myself, but I have had in-depth training in about 8 different military weapons.)  Just too many people are stupid with firearms.  (I think our state's pass and forget hunter safety course is laughable.)

That's a very prudent policy, well said.
-- //Steve//

Steve Silverwood
kb6ojs@arrl.net

floridacyclist

I remember once upon a time that all aircraft operating in Alaska were required to carry a firearm. CAP rules mirrored this with a statement that "noone may carry firearms except for aircrews in Alaska" or something to that effect.

Pepper spray and bear bells serve mainly to aid in determining the breed of a bear. It works pretty simply: Bear scat tells us many things. For example, if it's brown and smells like....well scat, then it's a brown bear. If it smells like pepper spray and has little bells in it, then it's a grizzly.
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

♠SARKID♠

Quote from: floridacyclist on October 19, 2007, 11:02:34 PM
I remember once upon a time that all aircraft operating in Alaska were required to carry a firearm. CAP rules mirrored this with a statement that "noone may carry firearms except for aircrews in Alaska" or something to that effect.

CAPR 900-3 states
Quoteb. Firearms may be carried in survival gear in CAP aircraft when required by law. When firearms are so authorized, they will not be removed from the survival gear unless an emergency situation exists.
That reg hasn't changed since July 1986

Hoser

It's also state law to carry a firearm in an aircraft survival kit

♠SARKID♠

Okay, dug up a couple pics.







Those were shot up at my cottage, about 50 ft away from the house.
When the bears are that comfortable with man-made structures and buildings, I'm not comfortable with the bears.