Add Stars to the Grover Loening Award

[Shuman 14]

Currently if a Member completes the USAF/USSF Squadron Officer School, Air Command and Staff College, or Air War College they are authorized to wear a bronze, silver, or gold star (respectively) on the Garber or Wilson. Highest on the Wilson and next highest on the Garber.

Currently if a member completes all three, there is no way to represent that... so what do you think of authorizing a Star on the Loening Award?

One star per ribbon but if you complete Level Five and have also completed all three of the USAF/USSF Officer Professional Military Education courses you can wear gold, silver and bronze stars on the Wilson, Garber and Loening Ribbons (respectively).

Thoughts?

[baronet68]

Think of SOS, ACSC, and AWC as being like Middle School, High School, and College respectively. *

• Graduate Middle School, you tell everyone.
• Graduate High School, you tell everyone and people might ask about your Middle School.
• Graduate College, people might ask you about High School but nobody cares about your Middle School.

* Disclaimer - I'm not saying that Squadron Officer School or Middle School aren't important, just that they start to lose their luster as you complete higher-level accomplishments.

[Shuman 14]

Think of SOS, ACSC, and AWC as being like Middle School, High School, and College respectively. *

• Graduate Middle School, you tell everyone.
• Graduate High School, you tell everyone and people might ask about your Middle School.
• Graduate College, people might ask you about High School but nobody cares about your Middle School.

* Disclaimer - I'm not saying that Squadron Officer School or Middle School aren't important, just that they start to lose their luster as you complete higher-level accomplishments.

Fair points.

Following that logic, perhaps we should only wear the ribbon of highest level of CAP Professional Development completed, with a star on it to represent the highest level of USAF PME completed... a Wilson with a Gold Star being the ultimate Order of Distinction.

[ColonelJack]

Following that logic, perhaps we should only wear the ribbon of highest level of CAP Professional Development completed, with a star on it to represent the highest level of USAF PME completed... a Wilson with a Gold Star being the ultimate Order of Distinction.

A lot of people do just that, to keep from having the ribbon rack go too high (especially when wearing military ribbons along with CAP ribbons).  The directive is "wear some or all."

Jack

[Jester]

There should really just be one PD/ET ribbon with a numeral device on it for the highest level completed.  You can still have the individual awards & their namesakes, the giant certificates that only get seen once at presentation, etc.

Just get rid of the ribbons for all of them.  I submitted it to the innovation competition, doubt cutting back on ribbons will get much attention.

[flyboy53]

Don't like the comparison of SOS to middle school. Even in correspondence, it was a year and a half of pretty intensive  studying and even equates to college credit.

That said, I wish the CAP would just adopt a formal standard of the highest training ribbon with one device reflecting the highest level of training -- cadet and senior. The Air Force and the Army do that for enlisted PME.

I hold a GRW with the device for SOS, why would anything else matter.

[baronet68]

Don't like the comparison of SOS to middle school. Even in correspondence, it was a year and a half of pretty intensive  studying and even equates to college credit.

Remember, I did include a disclaimer:

* Disclaimer - I'm not saying that Squadron Officer School or Middle School aren't important, just that they start to lose their luster as you complete higher-level accomplishments.

However, according to how the Air Force describes these courses, the SOS comparison could have been made to primary school:

• The Air War College is the senior Professional Military Education school of the U.S. Air Force.
• The Air Command and Staff College is the U.S. Air Force's intermediate-level Professional Military Education school.
• Squadron Officer School is a 5.5-week-long course which fulfills the U.S. Air Force's requirement for primary developmental education.

[Jester]

CAP members completing AF NCOA & SNCOA don't get anything. 

[Eclipse]

Don't like the comparison of SOS to middle school. Even in correspondence, it was a year and a half of pretty intensive  studying and even equates to college credit.

And essentially wholly irrelevant to trying to get a bunch of moms and adolescents to
showing up to meetings.

If people have a hole in the drywall to cover on their wall, so be it, but
these classes have nothing to do with CAP.

[PHall]

CAP members completing AF NCOA & SNCOA don't get anything. 

You get to put it in your record and can use them for credit for your Level 3, 4 and 5 training.

[NovemberWhiskey]

CAP members completing AF NCOA & SNCOA don't get anything. 

CAP NCO program half-baked; news at eleven.

[Shuman 14]

That said, I wish the CAP would just adopt a formal standard of the highest training ribbon with one device reflecting the highest level of training -- cadet and senior. The Air Force and the Army do that for enlisted PME. 

I agree, but I think the need to have nineteen (19) different devices for Cadet levels (16 achievements, Eaker, Spaatz and Borman) would complicate things and clutter the Ribbon.

Let the prior cadets keep their highest achievement Ribbon but Seniors, Just use the Membership Ribbon with a bronze numeral 2, 3, 4, and 5 for the education level and change the medallion on the mini-medal for the education level to the current named award (Loening, Garber, Wilson) and use the Leadership medallion for the Davis (Level 2). Then you don't need to add a device to the mini-medal at all.

Then use bronze, silver, or gold Stars for the USAF/USSF Squadron Officer School, Air Command and Staff College and Air War College (respectively). Stars before numerals, highest star only. So a maximum of two devices on a ribbon and only stars on the mini-medal as the medallion would show the CAP Education level.

Certificates for the awards remain the same regardless.

This would actually save money as it is cheaper to replace a medallion on an already mounted mini-medal, within an existing stack, than to build a new mini-medal mounted stack, adding another medal.

[flyboy53]

And I concur with that, especially given the awards like the Brewer, which have no corresponding ribbon or such for wear on a uniform.

We as an organization need to evolve back to system were less is more. You can only have so many ribbons, plaques to litter a wall, and so many of those huge certificates that end up relegated to a large envelope or behind the door in the den because they really can't be displayed. Besides, for some of us, CAP awards are pretty minor in contrast to our federal decorations.

That is why I'm glad that NHQ has taken the initiative to document such things in E-services. You can be a real minimalist just keeping to what's on file in that electronic record.

Always enjoyed the "matter of fact" attitude of my plain-talking friends in Indiana....

[flyboy53]

CAP members completing AF NCOA & SNCOA don't get anything. 

So what type of device do you propose...

[Jester]

CAP members completing AF NCOA & SNCOA don't get anything. 

So what type of device do you propose...

equivalent to the officer courses, just add each course in the reg for bronze and silver stars. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

From Shuman: Then use bronze, silver, or gold Stars for the USAF/USSF Squadron Officer School, Air Command and Staff College and Air War College (respectively). Stars before numerals, highest star only. So a maximum of two devices on a ribbon and only stars on the mini-medal as the medallion would show the CAP Education level.

From Jester: CAP members completing AF NCOA & SNCOA don't get anything.

Use Bronze and Silver Clasps for AF NCOA and SNCOA. In this case the meaning of the Clasp would change. Not for a rep award. Only the highest level shown. An SM attending the SNCOA then the SOS, ACSC, or AWC would wear the respective Star. Keep a maximum of two devices on a ribbon.

[Luis R. Ramos]

From Jester: equivalent to the officer courses, just add each course in the reg for bronze and silver stars.

This could also work, or separate level by using Clasps as I indicated before. As Shuman stated, only highest level shown.

[Shuman 14]

Just a late FYI, what do you mean by "Clasps"? the CAP Triangle/Tri-prop Device? Or something else?

Also, the USAF/USSF NCO PME has five levels and CAP does not have a Gold Clasps, so either we make one or you wear four Bronze and then switch to Silver to show your PME but with the numeral to show your CAP level, that means five devices, which means "two" ribbons to display the devices, which defeats the purpose of eliminating ribbons.

Now if we create a Gold Clasps the PME would be:

Gold Clasp - Senior NCO Academy

Silver Clasp - NCO Academy

Three Bronze Clasps - NCO Leadership School

Two Bronze Clasps - Airman Leadership School

Bronze Clasp - NCO Preparatory Course

So final point would be wearing Clasps and Stars together. It is not inconceivable for a CAP member to complete both USAF/USSF NCO and Officer PME during their time in CAP. I'm not opposed to wearing Clasps and Stars together, but I'd like to keep it to one Ribbon, so a maximum of four (4) devices: one Numeral for CAP Level, one Star for Officer PME and up to two Clasps for NCO PME.

This would leave the NCO Leadership School Graduates out in the lurch, but I guess you could choose not to wear a Star. I would make the Numeral mandatory, to show the CAP level on the ribbon, the medallion would show it on the medal, but keep the device total to four and no second ribbon for more than four devices.   

[wacapgh]

To further muddy the waters - What about the Gold and Silver stars for Senior and Master Specialty Track ratings on the Leadership Award?

[PHall]

Just a late FYI, what do you mean by "Clasps"? the CAP Triangle/Tri-prop Device? Or something else?

Also, the USAF/USSF NCO PME has five levels and CAP does not have a Gold Clasps, so either we make one or you wear four Bronze and then switch to Silver to show your PME but with the numeral to show your CAP level, that means five devices, which means "two" ribbons to display the devices, which defeats the purpose of eliminating ribbons.

Now if we create a Gold Clasps the PME would be:

Gold Clasp - Senior NCO Academy

Silver Clasp - NCO Academy

Three Bronze Clasps - NCO Leadership School

Two Bronze Clasps - Airman Leadership School

Bronze Clasp - NCO Preparatory Course

So final point would be wearing Clasps and Stars together. It is not inconceivable for a CAP member to complete both USAF/USSF NCO and Officer PME during their time in CAP. I'm not opposed to wearing Clasps and Stars together, but I'd like to keep it to one Ribbon, so a maximum of four (4) devices: one Numeral for CAP Level, one Star for Officer PME and up to two Clasps for NCO PME.

This would leave the NCO Leadership School Graduates out in the lurch, but I guess you could choose not to wear a Star. I would make the Numeral mandatory, to show the CAP level on the ribbon, the medallion would show it on the medal, but keep the device total to four and no second ribbon for more than four devices.   

Okay, just for a little background. In the Air Force/Space Force the enlisted have the NCO Professional Military Education Graduation Ribbon which you get for completing NCO Academy and Senior NCO Academy.

Officers get nothing for completing their PME other then the opportunity to compete for their next promotion.