Unit Patch vs Higher Command Patch in CAP

Started by Shuman 14, May 11, 2022, 03:30:16 pm

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Shuman 14

Quote from: baronet68 on May 17, 2022, 01:55:47 amCAP's uniform and insignia sources are already quite limited so why paint ourselves further into the corner adopting a less readily-available boot color?



Which is why I recommend the authorization of BOTH black and coyote boots. If both are authorized, the question is mote.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

PHall

DAFI 10-2702 Organization and Function of the Civil Air Patrol 17 June 2021

1.2.3.2. The CAP-USAF Commander performs the following:

1.2.3.2.4. Approves CAP grade structure, wear and grooming standards for USAFstyle uniforms and variations thereof, and membership cards, ensuring distinction from DAF uniforms and identification cards;


The black boots are seen as an easy and cost effective way to comply with this requirement.

Jester

Quote from: PHall on May 16, 2022, 10:16:13 pmStill have a requirement to easily distinguished in low light levels from USAF/USSF members when wearing the USAF style uniform. The black boots are an easy way to do this.
And this is a USAF requirement.

Where is that written down?

NIN

While everybody gets wrapped around the axle about black boots...

1) Cadets can wear low quarters or boots in Class B blues (technically the only required uniform). At least for the first year, that can be a fair cost saving for mom & dad;
2) Black boots can be worn across the full spectrum of CAP utility uniforms both AF-style and corporate (ABU, BBDU, both FDUs, and CWU).

I get it, we want to look like Big Momma Blue and not like the red-headed stepchildren.

However:
1) We have a requirement for distinctiveness (as Phil quoted). That can surely be accomplished other ways (full color patches, our dark navy tapes, etc);
2) Tan/coyote boots are still fairly expensive. I can score a decent pair of black boots (either secret sneakers or regular combat boots) locally for around $50-75. I haven't seen tan/coyote boots of similar quality for that price. Usually, they're $100 and up and online-only (yes, I have seen Bellevilles via Sportman's Guide for $39).

I wear corp & AF style. I don't need to have two pair of boots: one for wear with OCP and a pair for wear with BBDU, etc.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
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Ned

Quote from: NIN on May 17, 2022, 03:53:12 pmI wear corp & AF style. I don't need to have two pair of boots: one for wear with OCP and a pair for wear with BBDU, etc.

I know you are under the weather, but that has to be the most "un-Nin" thing I have read in a while.

My personal wager is that you would have 5-6 pair of boots prominently displayed in your walk in Uniform Closet.

NIN

Quote from: Ned on May 18, 2022, 01:11:37 amI know you are under the weather, but that has to be the most "un-Nin" thing I have read in a while.

My personal wager is that you would have 5-6 pair of boots prominently displayed in your walk in Uniform Closet.

Shush, Ned. I was making a point!

<checks Walk-in Uniform Closet>

1 pr spitshined jump boots, black
1 pr old-school flight boots, black

There's an old pair of Corcorans around here someplace that are retired. I think they're in the basement.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
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Toad1168

Quote from: NIN on May 17, 2022, 03:53:12 pmWhile everybody gets wrapped around the axle about black boots...

1) Cadets can wear low quarters or boots in Class B blues (technically the only required uniform). At least for the first year, that can be a fair cost saving for mom & dad;



You actually pointed out a glaring problem with the uniform reg that needs to be changed.  This was all fine and good when the boots were traditional combat boots that looked lore like dress shoes.  Now, everyone wears tactical boots which reallllyyyy look bad with blues. 

This provision needs to be stricken IMHO.
Toad

Shuman 14

Quote from: PHall on May 17, 2022, 04:30:55 amThe black boots are seen as an easy and cost effective way to comply with this requirement.

Did any CAP-USAF Commander ever say that, or is that just your interpretation?
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Shuman 14

Quote from: NIN on May 17, 2022, 03:53:12 pmI wear corp & AF style. I don't need to have two pair of boots: one for wear with OCP and a pair for wear with BBDU, etc.



But if you authorize both coyote and black, those that wish to can/could.

I think when CAP does get around to the OCP uniform, we should ask the CAP-USAF commander to authorize both.

FDU/OCP - coyote or black
CFDU/BBDU - black only

Those that want (or already have) coyote are happy.

Those that have (or want) black are happy.

Happy CAP'ers stay in CAP.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

PHall

I honestly can't think of anybody who has left CAP because of the uniforms. And I've been around for over 45 years...
If you do please enlighten us.

Shuman 14

Quote from: PHall on May 19, 2022, 11:35:31 pmI honestly can't think of anybody who has left CAP because of the uniforms. And I've been around for over 45 years...
If you do please enlighten us.

Not the uniforms, per say, I was implying the cost of uniforms.

A new CAP member has free boots from the military because they are a veteran... they don't have to buy new boots... if coyote boots are authorized. That's a happy CAP'er.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Fubar

Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 20, 2022, 12:32:11 amNot the uniforms, per say, I was implying the cost of uniforms.

A fair and important concern to be sure, I've noticed the adult members who are here because of the uniforms never care about the cost, they have the brand new uniform ready to go on the first day it's authorized. The rest of the adult members purchase uniform combinations that never change.

Cadets seem to fall into three categories:

  • The phase out dates are long enough that many cadets leave the program long before their uniform isn't allowed
  • Cadets jump on the new uniform on day 1
  • New cadets that purchase the cheapest option

It's the last group I think we should worry about.

Brit_in_CAP

Quote from: PHall on May 19, 2022, 11:35:31 pmI honestly can't think of anybody who has left CAP because of the uniforms. And I've been around for over 45 years...
If you do please enlighten us.
Fair point....but I have met people who **almost** gave it up!

A new member, who looked a lot like me, got lectured by a long serving member about all the Must Have items....started with mess uniform, Class A, Class B, BDU (as it then was) and went on for a long time.  All absolutely must have within 6 months.

Thankfully, just at the point that said new member was wondering if this (CAP) was a good idea, an equally long-serving member got alongside him, tore up the list, and got him properly oriented..  That was 11 years ago and I can safely say that I've never needed most of that list, and i passed on the same advice when I got the chance!

Eclipse

^ A good use of the torn up paper would have been a 2B for the goober telling a new
member to buy mess dress.

"That Others May Zoom"

PHall

Quote from: Eclipse on May 23, 2022, 03:41:09 pm^ A good use of the torn up paper would have been a 2B for the goober telling a new
member to buy mess dress.


Too bad being an idiot is not grounds for a 2b. It's not in the "real military" too.

Shuman 14

Quote from: PHall on May 23, 2022, 07:03:39 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on May 23, 2022, 03:41:09 pm^ A good use of the torn up paper would have been a 2B for the goober telling a new
member to buy mess dress.


Too bad being an idiot is not grounds for a 2b. It's not in the "real military" too.

If it were they would have kicked my out when I was a PFC. :-D
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

NIN

Quote from: Eclipse on May 23, 2022, 03:41:09 pm^ A good use of the torn up paper would have been a 2B for the goober telling a new
member to buy mess dress.

Right? Minimum basic service uniform. Lets start there. Stay there. Get good there. Then move on.

On another note, 39-1 has had this statement, or a variation of it, for as long as I can remember: "1.2.5.3. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to obtain all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication."

It took long enough, but last week when I picked up at black leather jacket, I think I've finalized the collection. I now have pretty much EVERY piece of uniform kit I'll ever need. I am missing just four things: the light blue windbreaker (don't need it), the blue field jacket (I have a blue goretex, I think I'm good), the Blue Winter Cap (also don't need) and the CAP FDU Flight Scarf (no way are you catching me *dead* wearing that).

Take it from me: you don't need all of this.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2021 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

PHall

Quote from: NIN on May 24, 2022, 12:13:43 am
Quote from: Eclipse on May 23, 2022, 03:41:09 pm^ A good use of the torn up paper would have been a 2B for the goober telling a new
member to buy mess dress.

Right? Minimum basic service uniform. Lets start there. Stay there. Get good there. Then move on.

On another note, 39-1 has had this statement, or a variation of it, for as long as I can remember: "1.2.5.3. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to obtain all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication."

It took long enough, but last week when I picked up at black leather jacket, I think I've finalized the collection. I now have pretty much EVERY piece of uniform kit I'll ever need. I am missing just four things: the light blue windbreaker (don't need it), the blue field jacket (I have a blue goretex, I think I'm good), the Blue Winter Cap (also don't need) and the CAP FDU Flight Scarf (no way are you catching me *dead* wearing that).

Take it from me: you don't need all of this.


You mean you don't want that nasty yellow scarf with all of the little chicken feet on it?


Shuman 14

Quote from: NIN on May 24, 2022, 12:13:43 amthe Blue Winter Cap (also don't need) and the CAP FDU Flight Scarf (no way are you catching me *dead* wearing that).

The Blue Ear-flap Alaskan Trooper Cap? Completely unnecessary unless doing some extended Honor Detail outside in the dead of Winter.

White Silk scarves are far more dashing. ;-P
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

NIN



Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 24, 2022, 06:58:07 pmThe Blue Ear-flap Alaskan Trooper Cap? Completely unnecessary unless doing some extended Honor Detail outside in the dead of Winter.

White Silk scarves are far more dashing. ;-P

Yeah.  That winter cap is unneeded at this point in my trajectory.  If I'm standing honor detail in in the midst of winter in New England,  I've made a series of bad life choices.

As for the scarf,  well, I have _some_ standards. That thing is just godawful. And also,  since it has the CAP-USAF emblem on it,  I'm not sure we're the intended audience for it anyway.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2021 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.