Time in PATRON status

[N6RVT]

Looking through old posts here (like, 14 years ago) I came across one that said years in patron status did not count towards being a 50 year member.

Which is odd, considering at one point I was completely OUT for 23 months and was reinstated with only a check and a fingerprint card, and apparently those two years actually DO count, despite the fact I wasn't even a member at the time.  Because I retroactively paid dues for those two years?

If that is indeed the case, my 47 years in CAP drops to about 20.  I was "member at large" through my entire Army career (I don't think it was called PATRON yet) Also as I was still a Cadet when I entered ROTC, which I just learned by default terminates your membership instead of converting you to senior. So I think those 4 years don't count either.

Should I take that 45 off the red service ribbon?

[Toad1168]

Good question.  I was out for nine years, but if you look at eServices, there is no way I see to show a break in service.  That being said, I just did the math and put on a 25yr instead of counting 34. shrug

[Eclipse]

Patron membership does not count towards other awards, so one could surmise it doesn't
count towards Longevity devices, however the verbiage does not specify, or at least exclude, Patron time.

CAPR 39-3, Page 13:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf

b. Red Service Ribbon. Awarded at the end of 2 years (as a cadet or senior member in good
standing).
(1) First Bronze Clasp. Awarded at the end of 3 additional years (total of 5 years).
(2) Additional Bronze Clasps. One additional bronze clasp will be awarded for each
additional 5 years of service. A maximum of three bronze clasps (denoting 15 years of service) will
be worn.
(3) Longevity Device. A metal number, denoting years of service, awarded at the end of 20
years and in increments of 5 years thereafter. The longevity device is worn centered on the red service
ribbon and the bronze clasps are no longer worn. Members achieving 20, 30 and 40 years of service may
also receive an appropriate certificate from their unit to commemorate this accomplishment.

Since 39-2 requires 20 years of "active" (though not contagious) membership to qualify
for retirement (even to the point of suggesting a member turn Patron instead of retiring)
it seems clear that Patron time would not be counted towards longevity devices.

And obviously any time in between in which you are not a member at all, would not count.

[Shuman 14]

With no National patron Squadron anymore and most units keeping their "patrons" on books, cashing their dues checks, and never seeing them at a meeting... it gets really hard to tell a "senior" from a "patron".

[SarDragon]

I have a six year break in membership from back in the '80s. That time doesn't count for anything. I had a face to face conversation with Susie Parker about this, when I asked about paying that six years of membership. She said there was no provision for this in the membership system. I didn't ask about patron status, because I was never in it. I do have a few years of paid membership with no participation because of time and money issues, but I didn't let my membership lapse. If you root around in your member data in eServices, you will find a First Joined date and a most recently joined date (not sure of the label). For some folks, they match. Mine do not.

I did manage to present enough documentation, in the form of olde membership cards, to prove my entire time when I became eligible for my 50-year membership.

[Spam]

... 20 years of "active" (though not contagious) membership to qualify

Hey Bob, if I tested positive on Friday, am I still a contagious member now? 

Cheers (cough, hack, sneeze)
Contiguous 39 Spam

[Eclipse]

Funny thing is I still see "contiguous" every time I read it.

Bloody spellcheck!

[Spam]

Just don't be OCONUS!

Cheers
Spam

[TheSkyHornet]

With no National patron Squadron anymore and most units keeping their "patrons" on books, cashing their dues checks, and never seeing them at a meeting... it gets really hard to tell a "senior" from a "patron".

Same with Cadet Sponsor Members.

eServices show "Senior Member" which is inaccurate. And now I'm trying to track down why squadrons have CSMs on the books when their cadet hasn't been in for some time.

[Bayareaflyer 44]

When you submitted your CAPF 2A to the next higher HQ, and you listed your time served as verification for applicability towards the 45 year service award - what did they say?

[Shuman 14]

In the scope of things, does it really matter? Patron, Cadet Sponsor or Senior Member... for two, five, ten, etc. years, CAP got a check, cashed it and it didn't bounce.

Would you begrudge them an e-Services entry for a Red Service Ribbon? After all if they want to wear it, they have to buy it... and a uniform to wear it on.

I say count the time and be done with it.

[Capt Thompson]

If I'm a Captain, and I quit for 4 years and then come back, I start from scratch. If I instead go to Patron status for 4 years and then back to active, do I retain my grade? I thought that was part of the reason for Patron status in the first place, so if you had to take time away you could go to Patron without losing anything.

I would think if that time counts to keep me in my grade, it would also count toward service, as you never had a lapse in membership and payment.

Time away from CAP is a different story. I had a huge lapse of more than a decade in the early 2000's. eServices says I joined in 1996, but I subtract those years I was away and wear the appropriate clasps on my Red Service rather than the 25 I would have if I had stayed on the books.

[Eclipse]

If I instead go to Patron status for 4 years and then back to active, do I retain my grade?

Yes.

CAPR 39-2, Page 18:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R039_002_A74FDA9552C2D.pdf
"4.2.1.4. Retain the last CAP grade held prior to entering patron status if transferred to
patron status without a break in service"

However I would disagree that Patrons are "active" in the context of the Longevity device.

An active member, can, at a whim, put on a uniform and attend a meeting, serve in a mission,
etc., etc.

A patron must submit a request for reinstatement, submit new proof of identity, and possibly even
have to complete new CPT or other training mandated since they were last active. The process
is by no means "immediate".

[TheSkyHornet]

Would you begrudge them an e-Services entry for a Red Service Ribbon? After all if they want to wear it, they have to buy it... and a uniform to wear it on.

We provide Red Service Ribbons to our squadron members. Nobody should ever have to buy a first-time issue award/decoration, no matter how insignificant.

[N6RVT]

In the scope of things, does it really matter? Patron, Cadet Sponsor or Senior Member... for two, five, ten, etc. years, CAP got a check, cashed it and it didn't bounce.

Would you begrudge them an e-Services entry for a Red Service Ribbon? After all if they want to wear it, they have to buy it... and a uniform to wear it on.

I say count the time and be done with it.

Looking back through my records, I paid over $1000 for which all I got was a number on a ribbon.  The actual question was regarding my 50 year membership, and the answer I got was no, it would take another 28 years in my case.

I have actually ceased updating my ribbons as there is no requirement for them to be complete.  I just got yet another ribbon literally given to everybody, making five of them in the last couple of years, and the whole concept has become rather meaningless, at least to me.

[TheSkyHornet]

I have actually ceased updating my ribbons as there is no requirement for them to be complete.  I just got yet another ribbon literally given to everybody, making five of them in the last couple of years, and the whole concept has become rather meaningless, at least to me.

I'm not following on the "no requirement for them to be complete."

You aren't required to wear all ribbons; those of your choose suffice. But, if worn, the devices are worn IAW R39-3 (i.e., you would wear the earned device and not whatever you feel like). It's really moot since most individuals wouldn't even know what ribbons and devices you've earned.

I rarely wear ribbon as it is, and only when I'm in Class A territory.

[PHall]

I wear ribbons about three times a year. Encampment graduation if I'm there, Memorial Day ceremonies and at funerals if I'm wearing my CAP uniform. Lately I've been doing too many of the latter...

[Shuman 14]

We provide Red Service Ribbons to our squadron members. Nobody should ever have to buy a first-time issue award/decoration, no matter how insignificant.

I've never seen a Senior Member in my current Squadron (or previous Squadron) ever get anything for free.

Cadets get the ribbon and Rank insignia for free but we collect up the previous rank insignia and ribbon holder bars and recycle them for the next cadet.

Of my CAP awards... Membership, Yeager, AFOEA and Crisis Service... I have purchased all of them. The only certificate I ever got was my Yeager and it came electronically in an email.

I agree with what you posted but that is going to depend on the available funds in the unit's coffers; not every unit can afford to do that.

[Capt Thompson]

We provide Red Service Ribbons to our squadron members. Nobody should ever have to buy a first-time issue award/decoration, no matter how insignificant.

I've never seen a Senior Member in my current Squadron (or previous Squadron) ever get anything for free.

Cadets get the ribbon and Rank insignia for free but we collect up the previous rank insignia and ribbon holder bars and recycle them for the next cadet.

Of my CAP awards... Membership, Yeager, AFOEA and Crisis Service... I have purchased all of them. The only certificate I ever got was my Yeager and it came electronically in an email.

I agree with what you posted but that is going to depend on the available funds in the unit's coffers; not every unit can afford to do that.

When I do a VG order for the Cadets I try to keep tabs on the Senior ribbons as well and keep them stocked, especially if I know someone is up for something. For the Crisis Service we ordered one for every active member, Cadet or Senior.

This varies from Squadron to Squadron. If we are running low on something a Cadet always takes priority, especially since many Seniors don't wear ribbons that often, but we try to take care of everyone when the budget permits.

Likewise for ranks and ribbon bars, those get turned in when they promote up or get a new ribbon. If a Cadet asks for a new ribbon bar, my first question is what size are you turning in, and where is it?

[N6RVT]

I wear ribbons about three times a year. Encampment graduation if I'm there, Memorial Day ceremonies and at funerals if I'm wearing my CAP uniform. Lately I've been doing too many of the latter...

That's about how much I wore full size medals.  And  similar to why.  But no weddings?  And no Civil Air Patrol Sword?  (It does exist)