Dutch Four Day Marches and Medal

[Shuman 14]

I wasn't sure where to post this idea, but since it comes with a Foreign Decoration, I thought the Uniform and Awards Board was as good as any place else.

Has CAP ever sent a team to the Four Day Marches in the Netherlands?

For those who have no clue what I'm talking about, here is the International Four Day Marches -Nijmegen Wikipedia page and the official Four Day Marches Walk of the World webpage.

I thought it might be cool if CAP sponsored a team, maybe the same way we send Cadets to IACE, have both Cadets and Senior members apply to the team and take the best there to compete.

I know the US Army now allows the Dutch Cross for Marching Proficiency Medal to be worn on it's uniform, but I'm not sure if the USAF has. Would CAP allow it to be worn on our uniforms?

I've never been, but I hear it is an amazing time. If anyone here has been, please share your memories and if you think it would be a good idea for CAP to send a team?   

[Capt Thompson]

I wasn't sure where to post this idea, but since it comes with a Foreign Decoration, I thought the Uniform and Awards Board was as good as any place else.

Has CAP ever sent a team to the Four Day Marches in the Netherlands?

For those who have no clue what I'm talking about, here is the International Four Day Marches -Nijmegen Wikipedia page and the official Four Day Marches Walk of the World webpage.

I thought it might be cool if CAP sponsored a team, maybe the same way we send Cadets to IACE, have both Cadets and Senior members apply to the team and take the best there to compete.

I know the US Army now allows the Dutch Cross for Marching Proficiency Medal to be worn on it's uniform, but I'm not sure if the USAF has. Would CAP allow it to be worn on our uniforms?

I've never been, but I hear it is an amazing time. If anyone here has been, please share your memories and if you think it would be a good idea for CAP to send a team?   

Not sure on the medal, but you sign up a CAP team Shuman and I'll come ruck with you, looks like a good time and the medal is sweet as well, whether or not it's authorized.

[etodd]

Saying you want CAP to send you to the Netherlands just so you can get a "cool medal" isn't the way to sell the idea.

Maybe start from scratch, don't mention the medal, and tell Hdqs how CAP National would benefit from sending members to another country in oder to participate. And mention all the why and wherefores, the purpose, and what would be gained, etc., yadda, yadda.

[Brit_in_CAP]

This was and is hugely popular amongst the UK Air Cadets and the Royal Air Force, with several teams participating each year.

Fantastic idea to get a team together!

[Brit_in_CAP]

Saying you want CAP to send you to the Netherlands just so you can get a "cool medal" isn't the way to sell the idea.

Maybe start from scratch, don't mention the medal, and tell Hdqs how CAP National would benefit from sending members to another country in oder to participate. And mention all the why and wherefores, the purpose, and what would be gained, etc., yadda, yadda.

Rare event...I agree with my colleague here!

[MSG Mac]

Why send our members to the Netherlands, when we can ask our German and or UK based Squadrons to represent CAP?

[Shuman 14]

Why send our members to the Netherlands, when we can ask our German and or UK based Squadrons to represent CAP?

For the same reason we send states-side personnel to IACE.

[PHall]

Why send our members to the Netherlands, when we can ask our German and or UK based Squadrons to represent CAP?

For the same reason we send states-side personnel to IACE.

Totally different. You're comparing apples to coconuts.

[Eclipse]

There's plenty of similar walks in the US, many for worthy charities.
No need to go on a Medal Quest to Europe.

[HandsomeWalt_USMC]

The Nijmegen Marches are an incredibly cool event that foster networking and fraternal bonds between warriors of multiple nationalities. The shared challenge builds cameraderie and encourages open sharing of ideas, techniques and philosophies between troops, programs and units from all the participating countries. I'd love to see CAP have a presence in the marches.

That being said, I don't think it's worth the expense of sending teams over to participate. Perhaps a self-funded program that allows teams of Cadets and Officers to apply for CAP permission to wear the uniform and represent CAP and the United States would be an effective compromise. You could call it sponsorship or endorsement of the team.

If given "endorsement" then allow Cadets and Officers who complete the march to wear the medal and ribbon on their uniform. We have awards for dumber things, so I see no valid reason to deny finishers the privilege of wearing the ribbon.

Eclipse made a good point about similar rucks here in the US for various charities. Use the same endorsement and self funding requirements and allow them to wear a finisher's medal if one is awarded by the organizers.

[GroundHawg]

Of the "big 3" marching events that you can earn uniform bling for, the Nijmegen March was by far the coolest imho. This would be an amazing and eye opening experience for any CAP member, in particular cadets. It will absolutely test your endurance and test your resolve! Core memories would be made and horizons broadened. Imagine the opportunity for a kid who has never left his county or state to bicycle through Amsterdam, see the Hague, tour Anne Franks house, and hear 20 languages being spoken at a coffee shop.

Set up some side quests in the Netherlands, tours trips, etc...

Maybe even use your IACE contacts and see about testing for the Dutch Military Proficiency Badge while you are there. Make it a two for one on your uniform bling.

This is a great idea! I have thought about this myself and I will absolutely go back if given the opportunity!

[Shuman 14]

Why send our members to the Netherlands, when we can ask our German and or UK based Squadrons to represent CAP?

For the same reason we send states-side personnel to IACE.

Totally different. You're comparing apples to coconuts.

Is it? plenty of IACE members have teams that compete, it about team building, and comradery with similar Cadet programs world wide as well as interaction with our own military and Allied militaries.

It would seem they go hand-in-hand.

[Shuman 14]

There's plenty of similar walks in the US, many for worthy charities.
No need to go on a Medal Quest to Europe.

I knew you'd say something righteous and hopeful. Thanks for never disappointing.

[Shuman 14]

The Nijmegen Marches are an incredibly cool event that foster networking and fraternal bonds between warriors of multiple nationalities. The shared challenge builds cameraderie and encourages open sharing of ideas, techniques and philosophies between troops, programs and units from all the participating countries. I'd love to see CAP have a presence in the marches.

That being said, I don't think it's worth the expense of sending teams over to participate. Perhaps a self-funded program that allows teams of Cadets and Officers to apply for CAP permission to wear the uniform and represent CAP and the United States would be an effective compromise. You could call it sponsorship or endorsement of the team.

If given "endorsement" then allow Cadets and Officers who complete the march to wear the medal and ribbon on their uniform. We have awards for dumber things, so I see no valid reason to deny finishers the privilege of wearing the ribbon.

Eclipse made a good point about similar rucks here in the US for various charities. Use the same endorsement and self funding requirements and allow them to wear a finisher's medal if one is awarded by the organizers.

Where in any of my posts did I say CAP had to pay for it? I didn't, it be nice if CAPHQ would/could fund it, but I understand budget constraints.

All I was asking would CAP bless off on it and say the team can wear CAP uniforms, carry a CAP Guidon, and use CAP branding as needed.

I wasn't asking for a free trip to the Netherlands on CAP's dime.

As to similar marches, great, lets do them all, it would get CAP some free publicity and help charity, but can we do the Four Day Marches too?

[THRAWN]

Why send our members to the Netherlands, when we can ask our German and or UK based Squadrons to represent CAP?

This is the best of the ideas. Let the overseas units do overseas stuff and the CONUS units do CONUS stuff. What's next?

[THRAWN]

Of the "big 3" marching events that you can earn uniform bling for, the Nijmegen March was by far the coolest imho. This would be an amazing and eye opening experience for any CAP member, in particular cadets. It will absolutely test your endurance and test your resolve! Core memories would be made and horizons broadened. Imagine the opportunity for a kid who has never left his county or state to bicycle through Amsterdam, see the Hague, tour Anne Franks house, and hear 20 languages being spoken at a coffee shop.

Set up some side quests in the Netherlands, tours trips, etc...

Maybe even use your IACE contacts and see about testing for the Dutch Military Proficiency Badge while you are there. Make it a two for one on your uniform bling.

This is a great idea! I have thought about this myself and I will absolutely go back if given the opportunity!

Requirements:
1000 m sprint (To be completed with helmet and rifle)
5000 m run
Hand grenade throwing
Rope climbing
Cat crawling
Obstacle Course
Completion of these requirements qualifies a candidate for the plain bronze badge.

Nah. You know why.

[HandsomeWalt_USMC]

The Nijmegen Marches are an incredibly cool event that foster networking and fraternal bonds between warriors of multiple nationalities. The shared challenge builds cameraderie and encourages open sharing of ideas, techniques and philosophies between troops, programs and units from all the participating countries. I'd love to see CAP have a presence in the marches.

That being said, I don't think it's worth the expense of sending teams over to participate. Perhaps a self-funded program that allows teams of Cadets and Officers to apply for CAP permission to wear the uniform and represent CAP and the United States would be an effective compromise. You could call it sponsorship or endorsement of the team.

If given "endorsement" then allow Cadets and Officers who complete the march to wear the medal and ribbon on their uniform. We have awards for dumber things, so I see no valid reason to deny finishers the privilege of wearing the ribbon.

Eclipse made a good point about similar rucks here in the US for various charities. Use the same endorsement and self funding requirements and allow them to wear a finisher's medal if one is awarded by the organizers.

Where in any of my posts did I say CAP had to pay for it? I didn't, it be nice if CAPHQ would/could fund it, but I understand budget constraints.

All I was asking would CAP bless off on it and say the team can wear CAP uniforms, carry a CAP Guidon, and use CAP branding as needed.

I wasn't asking for a free trip to the Netherlands on CAP's dime.

As to similar marches, great, lets do them all, it would get CAP some free publicity and help charity, but can we do the Four Day Marches too?

I didn't mean to imply that you did say to pay, I meant to clarify for the naysayers who would use cost as a reason not to do this. I think it's a phenomenal idea!

[Shuman 14]

I didn't mean to imply that you did say to pay, I meant to clarify for the naysayers who would use cost as a reason not to do this. I think it's a phenomenal idea!

Roger. Tracking now.

[Shuman 14]

Why send our members to the Netherlands, when we can ask our German and or UK based Squadrons to represent CAP?

This is the best of the ideas. Let the overseas units do overseas stuff and the CONUS units do CONUS stuff. What's next?

Cancel IACE?

[Shuman 14]

Requirements:
1000 m sprint (To be completed with helmet and rifle)
5000 m run
Hand grenade throwing
Rope climbing
Cat crawling
Obstacle Course
Completion of these requirements qualifies a candidate for the plain bronze badge.

Nah. You know why.

Rubber ducks can be borrowed from hundreds of US Military units... no Cadet touches an M-16/A1/A2/M4.
I'm not 100% here but I suspect they are already using dummy grenades... no Cadet touches an explosive device.
But I'm sure the answer will still be "NO".

FYI, numerous Military bases and College ROTC programs coordinate with the various German Military Liaison Missions to  host German Military Proficiency Badge testing events, it might be easier to coordinate with the closest AFROTC program to your respective CAP unit and see if you can marry-up with them when they conduct the event.

A van ride to a semi-local college campus is a far easier do than travelling to the Netherlands.

Still be cool to send an official CAP team to Holland every year to take part in the event, just saying.

[THRAWN]

Requirements:
1000 m sprint (To be completed with helmet and rifle)
5000 m run
Hand grenade throwing
Rope climbing
Cat crawling
Obstacle Course
Completion of these requirements qualifies a candidate for the plain bronze badge.

Nah. You know why.

Rubber ducks can be borrowed from hundreds of US Military units... no Cadet touches an M-16/A1/A2/M4.
I'm not 100% here but I suspect they are already using dummy grenades... no Cadet touches an explosive device.
But I'm sure the answer will still be "NO".

FYI, numerous Military bases and College ROTC programs coordinate with the various German Military Liaison Missions to  host German Military Proficiency Badge testing events, it might be easier to coordinate with the closest AFROTC program to your respective CAP unit and see if you can marry-up with them when they conduct the event.

A van ride to a semi-local college campus is a far easier do than travelling to the Netherlands.

Still be cool to send an official CAP team to Holland every year to take part in the event, just saying.

Zounds. It has nothing to do with touching anything, and you should know that. It has a lot to do with the differences between CAP and your oft referenced ROTC programs. Compare the two and it will jump right out at you.

[Shuman 14]

Zounds. It has nothing to do with touching anything, and you should know that. It has a lot to do with the differences between CAP and your oft referenced ROTC programs. Compare the two and it will jump right out at you.

Other than helping teach Cadets Drill and Ceremony, I actually try to stay away from them, I joined CAP to do things I couldn't do in the military, like fly, so you lost me there.

Please explain because I truly don't understand your point.

[TheSkyHornet]

the differences between CAP and your oft referenced ROTC programs. Compare the two and it will jump right out at you.

I disagree. The CAP Cadet Program is much like an ROTC...a JROTC for that matter. What we don't have is a prescribed curriculum that must be followed, but we have a general package of items to capture. Where we tend to really shine for recruiting is the extracurricular opportunities (also a detriment if those individuals don't get to experience them). We tend to have a much wider range of exploration and training opportunities available for almost every niche.

But CAP, much like the way of many JROTCs, is starting to shift to a greater technology focus and away from the "gung-ho" experiences like Ranger Challenge competitions, etc.

The greatest difference that we tend to have is that we don't fall on an academic calendar; thus, progression is at one's preferred rate rather than on a timeline. This probably creates one of the biggest difficulties in every squadron: people are moving around constantly at their own pace...some too slow, some relatively fast...and it's hard to plan for an adequate staff corps or rotate people in a manner of "up or out" practices. A lot of cadets become stagnant in CAP, and we spend a lot of energy trying to figure out why, but we don't have a mechanism to "force" them to progress or leave on a universal time table.

[THRAWN]

Zounds. It has nothing to do with touching anything, and you should know that. It has a lot to do with the differences between CAP and your oft referenced ROTC programs. Compare the two and it will jump right out at you.

Other than helping teach Cadets Drill and Ceremony, I actually try to stay away from them, I joined CAP to do things I couldn't do in the military, like fly, so you lost me there.

Please explain because I truly don't understand your point.

Zounds.

The Reserve Officers' Training Corps (ROTC) is a group of college- and university-based officer training programs for training commissioned officers of the United States Armed Forces.

The Civil Air Patrol and the United States Air Force maintain a civilian-military
relationship which is based upon the Civil Air Patrol's status as the USAF Auxiliary. As such, CAP's services to the nation and the USAF are: (1) voluntary, (2) benevolent, and (3) noncombatant.

Toting battle rattle around and getting a cool badge doesn't fit the charter.

What's next?

[THRAWN]

the differences between CAP and your oft referenced ROTC programs. Compare the two and it will jump right out at you.

I disagree. The CAP Cadet Program is much like an ROTC...a JROTC for that matter. What we don't have is a prescribed curriculum that must be followed, but we have a general package of items to capture. Where we tend to really shine for recruiting is the extracurricular opportunities (also a detriment if those individuals don't get to experience them). We tend to have a much wider range of exploration and training opportunities available for almost every niche.

But CAP, much like the way of many JROTCs, is starting to shift to a greater technology focus and away from the "gung-ho" experiences like Ranger Challenge competitions, etc.

The greatest difference that we tend to have is that we don't fall on an academic calendar; thus, progression is at one's preferred rate rather than on a timeline. This probably creates one of the biggest difficulties in every squadron: people are moving around constantly at their own pace...some too slow, some relatively fast...and it's hard to plan for an adequate staff corps or rotate people in a manner of "up or out" practices. A lot of cadets become stagnant in CAP, and we spend a lot of energy trying to figure out why, but we don't have a mechanism to "force" them to progress or leave on a universal time table.

See response to Shuman below.

[Shuman 14]

The Reserve Officers' Training Corps (ROTC) is a group of college- and university-based officer training programs for training commissioned officers of the United States Armed Forces.

The Civil Air Patrol and the United States Air Force maintain a civilian-military
relationship which is based upon the Civil Air Patrol's status as the USAF Auxiliary. As such, CAP's services to the nation and the USAF are: (1) voluntary, (2) benevolent, and (3) noncombatant.

Toting battle rattle around and getting a cool badge doesn't fit the charter.

What's next?

I would submit to you that UDFs and GMTs both tot "battle rattle", it's just called something else but I still see Cadets outfitted in a pistol belt, y-harness, two ammo pouches, two canteens, a first pouch, a compass & pouch, an angle-head flashlight, and a poncho strapped between the canteens... just like many of us wore for the majority of our military careers. There is no ammo or grenades but it is "battle rattle" none-the-less.

"Cool Badges"? Like NRA Marksmanship badges? VERY non-combative there.

CAP, for many seniors and cadets, is absolutely about "toting battle rattle around and getting a cool badge".

CAP, JROTC, and ROTC all have similar functions, organizations and training. Lets not kid ourselves the military looks to JROTC and CAP as a recruiting pool... shallow warm waters where the fishing is good.

Charter vs. practice, sometimes they just don't meet.

[THRAWN]

CAP, JROTC, and ROTC all have similar functions, organizations and training

Except that they don't. ROTC programs are designed as commissioning programs. JROTC programs are feeder programs for them. CAP is not.

NRA Marksmanship programs are not combative.

Bottom line, the marches, the Dutch Military Proficiency Badge, the German Military Proficiency Badge have ZERO to do with CAP. Want to get them awarded to some cadets? Help out a ROTC or JROTC unit.

Spend some time with the programs.

[jeders]

CAP, JROTC, and ROTC all have similar functions, organizations and training

Except that they don't. ROTC programs are designed as commissioning programs. JROTC programs are feeder programs for them. CAP is not.

Is ROTC a commissioning program, yes; does everyone who enters ROTC commission or join the military, absolutely not. The first two years of ROTC are little different than JROTC or CAP CP in that they provide general education in leadership and other topics, i.e. it's a leadership program. After the first two years, ROTC cadets can continue on and then become obligated to serve, but before that it's just a leadership program that anyone can benefit from.

JROTC is in no way a feeder program into ROTC anymore than CAP, high school football, or FFA are. It is designed to "Develop citizens of character dedicated to serving their nation and community." The CAP CP is designed to "transform youth into dynamic Americans and aerospace leaders."

All three programs use a military structure and cadet-run programs to teach leadership and to develop citizens. Only one of the three is designed to actually generate officers, and even that only applies to a portion of their cadets.

To say that the three programs do not share a similar purpose, organization, or training is disingenuous at best since the CAP CP is and has always been a military-style leadership program, just like JROTC and parts of ROTC.

[Shuman 14]

NRA Marksmanship programs are not combative.

(Roll Eyes) 8-)

If you ever get shot at in anger... remember to tell that to the bullet.

[THRAWN]

NRA Marksmanship programs are not combative.

(Roll Eyes) 8-)

If you ever get shot at in anger... remember to tell that to the bullet.

The program is pretty simple to understand, and it's not about combat.

In the interest of Ben Franklin's advice, you're absolutely correct, can't believe that I allowed a reading of the law to mislead me.

What's next?

[Shuman 14]

NRA Marksmanship programs are not combative.

(Roll Eyes) 8-)

If you ever get shot at in anger... remember to tell that to the bullet.

The program is pretty simple to understand, and it's not about combat.

In the interest of Ben Franklin's advice, you're absolutely correct, can't believe that I allowed a reading of the law to mislead me.

What's next?

Regardless if you are shooting at a little round circle bullseye, the silhouette of an 8-point buck, or the silhouette of a man... marksmanship training increases your ability to KILL.

In combat, you shoot to KILL the enemy. Therefore NRA training IS about combat.

Hid behind whatever legal language you like, it doesn't change the fact that NRA training will make you a better killer in combat. 

[NovemberWhiskey]

OK, but so will improved physical fitness, spatial reasoning, good nutrition, level-headedness, resilience, communication skills and so on. Teleology is important - those things aren't intrinsically about lethality; neither I would assume is most sporting gun usage outside of hunting.

[THRAWN]

NRA Marksmanship programs are not combative.

(Roll Eyes) 8-)

If you ever get shot at in anger... remember to tell that to the bullet.

The program is pretty simple to understand, and it's not about combat.

In the interest of Ben Franklin's advice, you're absolutely correct, can't believe that I allowed a reading of the law to mislead me.

What's next?

Regardless if you are shooting at a little round circle bullseye, the silhouette of an 8-point buck, or the silhouette of a man... marksmanship training increases your ability to KILL.

In combat, you shoot to KILL the enemy. Therefore NRA training IS about combat.

Hid behind whatever legal language you like, it doesn't change the fact that NRA training will make you a better killer in combat. 

You're the expert...

[PHall]

Shuman 14, maybe, just maybe you might want to take just a little look at CAPR 60-1, The Cadet Program, before you make any more "suggestions" about the CAP Cadet Program.

[Shuman 14]

Shuman 14, maybe, just maybe you might want to take just a little look at CAPR 60-1, The Cadet Program, before you make any more "suggestions" about the CAP Cadet Program.

Yes I've been through Cadet Protection and TLC, I am familiar with the regulation.

I would say this all falls under chapter 2.9 High Adventure Activity. I don't see anything that would prohibit CAP from sending a team of all Cadets or a Composite Team of Seniors and Cadets to compete in the Four Day Marches or participate in a Dutch Military Proficiency Badge testing or a more local German Armed Forces Military Proficiency Badge testing. If you you do, please cite it.

[Shuman 14]

You're the expert...

Only with a Pistol. With a Rifle I'm lucky when I get Sharpshooter.   ;-P

[Shuman 14]

OK, but so will improved physical fitness, spatial reasoning, good nutrition, level-headedness, resilience, communication skills and so on. Teleology is important - those things aren't intrinsically about lethality; neither I would assume is most sporting gun usage outside of hunting.

Really? A firearm at it's very core is a weapon designed to kill. Even a target weapon is a deadly weapon that can kill.

It's not a fencing foil or a wooden Kendo sword, designed solely for sport and lacking the ability to be used to kill, it's a firearm plain and simple.

[THRAWN]

Shuman 14, maybe, just maybe you might want to take just a little look at CAPR 60-1, The Cadet Program, before you make any more "suggestions" about the CAP Cadet Program.

Yes I've been through Cadet Protection and TLC, I am familiar with the regulation.

I would say this all falls under chapter 2.9 High Adventure Activity. I don't see anything that would prohibit CAP from sending a team of all Cadets or a Composite Team of Seniors and Cadets to compete in the Four Day Marches or participate in a Dutch Military Proficiency Badge testing or a more local German Armed Forces Military Proficiency Badge testing. If you you do, please cite it.

Read the next section

[etodd]

Jeepers.

This thread started with someone wanting to find a way to add a cool badge to his collection.

Got hijacked and taken for a big turn.

"Whatcha talkin' 'bout Willis?"

[THRAWN]

Jeepers.

This thread started with someone wanting to find a way to add a cool badge to his collection.

Got hijacked and taken for a big turn.

"Whatcha talkin' 'bout Willis?"

It all ties together.

[SarDragon]

I think we've jumped the shark here.

Buh bye.