Sources for approved ABU winter outerwear

[Spam]

Not trying to perpetuate a debate on the regs here. In the spirit of trying to help find solutions, I'm offering sources for consideration (not an owner or sponsor here). I have used SG with satisfaction, though, for ammo, gear, and clothing:

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/us-military-surplus-gore-tex-waterproof-apecs-parka-shell-new?a=2216241&szc=2XL&clrc=09H&pm2d=CSE-SPG-15-PLA&utm_medium=PLA&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=Google&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=CI&utm_campaign=15571193985&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkqTW--Os9QIVAoKGCh1RWQDWEAQYASABEgLUfvD_BwE

also, there are various used and new options elsewhere:
https://www.amazon.com/FORCE-GORETEX-PURPOSE-ENVIRONMENTAL-CAMOUFLAGE/dp/B00KAFOKJC


A suggestion: a couple of units that I've commanded have had a long standing practice of investing in a small stock of (then-approved) field jackets, which were then issued to needy cadets on cold meeting nights and before missions. Doing the same by getting a range of appropriately sized ABU parkas is a smart cost saving idea within the budget of many units.

Another suggestion: many members never think about long johns, but inexpensive thermal underwear and proper layering can really keep one toasty warm with minimal investment, under all approved uniform combos.

R/s
Spam

[Shuman 14]

I would not want to waste squadron money buying ABU field jackets, ABU Gortexes and foliage green fleeces when we all know that these uniforms will be gone in short order.

The thermal underwear is the best idea until OCP pattern uniforms and outwear is approved.

[TheSkyHornet]

I would not want to waste squadron money buying ABU field jackets, ABU Gortexes and foliage green fleeces when we all know that these uniforms will be gone in short order.

The thermal underwear is the best idea until OCP pattern uniforms and outwear is approved.

Then direct your member corps to go purchase them at their discretion.

But these are the approved and available item options. If someone chooses not to have them, they're SOL when it comes to getting the fridgies.

[Eclipse]

Thermals work if you're going to be outside all day, but if you're just going between buildings or
activities at something like an encampment they become a hassle, then you have cadets cooking or
who have to be constantly changing.

[Shuman 14]

The Simple answer is to ask the USAF to approve OCPs for CAP as an authorized USAF-style Uniform.

Allow all ABU pattern uniforms to be worn "until unserviceable" (i.e. to faded, to worn, to many holes to present a professional appearance) so those that have them and continue to wear them and get their moneys worth out of them.

This will alleviate some of our problems so if units want to go buy coyote brown fleece jackets and OCP Gortexes to have on hand as they can and the ABU stuff can be used by those that have it.

This problem is only going to get worse as time goes on and supplies dry up.   

[Shuman 14]

Thermals work if you're going to be outside all day, but if you're just going between buildings or
activities at something like an encampment they become a hassle, then you have cadets cooking or
who have to be constantly changing.

I concur, I had not thought of that.

Old field jacket liners fit under BBDU, ABU and OCP tops and this would be the "quick change" option instead of full thermal long-johns.

[Shuman 14]

Then direct your member corps to go purchase them at their discretion. But these are the approved and available item options.

There is nothing discrete about telling a parent (or a Senior Member for that matter) to go spend between $75-110.00 (USC) on a coat (without liner) that is very likely to be obsolete in less than a year.

And for how much longer? (Both available and approved).

[SarDragon]

Then direct your member corps to go purchase them at their discretion. But these are the approved and available item options.

There is nothing discrete about telling a parent (or a Senior Member for that matter) to go spend between $75-110.00 (USC) on a coat (without liner) that is very likely to be obsolete in less than a year.

And for how much longer? (Both available and approved).

Sadly, until they aren't.

I have seen many uniform changes since I joined, and the process hasn't changed much in all that time. USAF decides to change their uniform, they tell CAP when they can change theirs, there's a transition period, and then everyone is in the new uniform. The problem now is that the changes have come more frequently.

When we went from OGs to the BDUs, the overseas squadrons were the first to wear them, early, because they were unable to procure OGs once the AF finished their transition. This was in the '87-'89 time frame. The stateside units still had convenient sources, since there were still other services wearing the OGs.

There's no easy answer.

[heliodoc]

No easy answer?

[SarDragon]

No easy answer?

Well, I don't have one. Do you?

[heliodoc]

Probably not a favorable one and I m ready for alllll sorts of blowback

Maybe like the uniform CAWG had to wear under CA OES?  What happened to that?  Somebody at CAP NHQ go sideways at Agency request when we are primarily a SUPPORTING agency??  Seems like there was some logic over there at CA OES that apparently CAP couldn't get past, eh?

I mean, we're this "premier" SAR group right?  Tac pants, BDU pants, and Long Sleeve orange shirts. orange bucket hats like State Dept of Transportation types wear or some type civilian outdoor clothing or yeah OK the BBDU....the uni normally for first responders

All the talk about the USAF and what uniform "they want us in."  I can almost bet the relief Big AF would have when some of our H/W challenged CAP personnel would shed

How many TRUE talks have occurred about our "Corporateness" and new civilian uniforms have truly occurred on mine and everyone else's $60-75 USD a year?  Surely, with the NUC and the 154 page CAPR 39-1, could be solved by CAP Corporate getting everyone in to one prescribed Civilian CAP uniform

Since CAP claims "Corporate" and seems to want to depart from the USAF except for some of the exciting missions...what would it really hurt CAP in prescribed civilian wear or everyone just can get in BBDUs and have their boonie hats to boot..

I mean it's 2022...some things might need to change in 80 yrs because CAP can't keep up with the DoD contract textile mills or even find a way to tag on real textile with quality controls...

Voila...problems solved

As some of today's social media-ites say..."Fight Me!!"  LOLOLOL

[Shuman 14]

Heliodoc,

while I would have no issue having a Corporate only, ES duty, working/field uniform, that's not going to work for the Cadet Program.

CAP is the USAF Auxiliary, there has to be a visible tie to the USAF especially in the Cadet Program. It's not like the High School JROTC get to change their uniforms because it doesn't work for everyone.

If the USAF puts JROTC cadet in Blues and OCPS then CAP cadets should be too.

Are AF-JROTC still wearing ABUs? I don't know, but I suspect if they are, they're in the middle of a transition themselves too.

Seniors are a different matter. Plenty of suggestions for a replacement for Blues, we can argue that until cows come home.

How about we go back to our CAP roots... lets adopt the Army's AGSU, switch out the brown epaulets for red epaulets, use pin-on ranks, ditch the "U.S." upper lapel pins and start using "C.A.P." lapel pins again, create a tri-blade propeller Branch insignia (the triangle thingy) for the lower lapels instead of the Winged Propeller of Army Aviation, switch our nametag from grey to red to match the epaulets, replace the antique finished Army buttons with silver CAP buttons, and use all the same hat badges as now. NCOs continue to use the blue/silver rank insignia. Use the USAF belt instead of the Army tan one.

Then we will have one uniform for all.

Pipedream of course.

[SarDragon]

Well, that's neither simple nor easy. I suggest that you first look at my other posts on "economy of scale". It is a major factor when discussing new uniforms.

Here are some threads/posts with relevant discussion:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=23607
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=25039.msg434416#msg434416
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=22891.msg412195#msg412195

Several of my posts have additional links with further discussion.

More simply put - any new uniform we come up with that isn't an existing AF/military uniform is going to be expensive. Because of the small quantities, most manufacturers won't even consider tooling up, especially when presented with a detailed specification.

This is reality, unpleasant as it is.

[Shuman 14]

Well, that's neither simple nor easy. I suggest that you first look at my other posts on "economy of scale". It is a major factor when discussing new uniforms.

Here are some threads/posts with relevant discussion:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=23607
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=25039.msg434416#msg434416
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=22891.msg412195#msg412195

Several of my posts have additional links with further discussion.

More simply put - any new uniform we come up with that isn't an existing AF/military uniform is going to be expensive. Because of the small quantities, most manufacturers won't even consider tooling up, especially when presented with a detailed specification.

This is reality, unpleasant as it is.

Then we all need to decide on an already existing uniform... be it USAF, another Branch of the military, police department, fire department, EMS agency, corrections department, etcetera... and go with that.

Again, put the Cadets in existing USAF Blues and OCPS and put the REST of us in one dress/service uniform, one flight uniform, one field uniform and keep the current corporate working uniform.

That or plead with the USAF to lift the restrictions on weight/grooming for wearing the USAF style uniforms.

I look at it this way, AF-JROTC instructors, all of who are Retired USAF personnel, wear their actual USAF uniform and rank when conducting these duties. I've seen some of these instructors pushing maximum density and was afraid that with a strong inhale silver buttons would be flying across the gym. The USAF says/does nothing to them.

I have also seen State Defense Force Airwings, where the uniform is again the USAF's but with the "U.S." cut-outs and/or discs replaced with State letters (i.e. "T.X.". "C.A.", etc.) and a State Seal added to the hat badge over the Eagle's head where the thirteen stars are on the USAF one and a red nametag are the only differences, pushing the same maximum density. The USAF says/does nothing to them.

The USAF itself doesn't make it's own members that can't meet height/weight/bodyfat standard wear a different uniform, it gives them a year to met standards or processes them for separation... but they continue to wear the USAF uniform.

So why is CAP held to stronger standards than everyone else?

[Spam]

<Reiterate purpose of starting the thread>

Not trying to push a narrative or ignite uniform fetish discussion.

Simply trying to provide sources for currently approved, climate-necessary uniforms.

#stayontarget

V/r
Spam

[TheSkyHornet]

Then direct your member corps to go purchase them at their discretion. But these are the approved and available item options.

There is nothing discrete about telling a parent (or a Senior Member for that matter) to go spend between $75-110.00 (USC) on a coat (without liner) that is very likely to be obsolete in less than a year.

And for how much longer? (Both available and approved).

I absolutely agree with this entirely. I think the frustration for all of us comes from:

• The fact that uniform items are increasingly expensive for a program marketed to all economic communities
• The fact that uniform items are increasingly unavailable despite their actual (or perceived) mandate
• The fact that nobody wants to be told that can't wear x or can't participate because they don't have a particular article to wear
• That fact that uniform standards are often burdensome (again, whether actually or perceived) for the members corps

But we don't dictate the regulations at the squadron level. It's a "shut up and follow the rules" situation. We can do our best to help provide uniform items and set appropriate uniform designations for activities that we control. But it doesn't make the above issues disappear.

I have seen many uniform changes since I joined, and the process hasn't changed much in all that time. USAF decides to change their uniform, they tell CAP when they can change theirs, there's a transition period, and then everyone is in the new uniform. The problem now is that the changes have come more frequently.

I don't know that the only problem here is that uniforms change more frequently.

I think there is an inherent issue in the time it takes for us to match/adopt that uniform, if we're going to continue to wear the Air Force-style based on the current standard working uniform of USAF.

I get that there is a National Uniform Board, and conversations with the Air Force...yadda yadda. I don't really have a grasp of how it all works. I don't understand where the real dialogue starts and whether or not it's actually true that the Air Force says we can't do (whatever). Did they actually say that? Was that a board recommendation/decision. I honestly have no idea.

From the ground level here, we just don't understand it at the bottom of the food chain. We don't understand why it's treated as if there is no supply of OCPs if CAP just started wearing the uniform, or why it's really this massive burden on the member corps to transition if members are voluntarily acquiring/purchasing uniform items over the next z-number of years.

<Reiterate purpose of starting the thread>

Not trying to push a narrative or ignite uniform fetish discussion.

Simply trying to provide sources for currently approved, climate-necessary uniforms.

#stayontarget

I probably should have read the entire thread before clicking Reply. Rookie mistake.

I actually shared this with some of my folks, and the feedback was greatly appreciative.

The biggest gripe is the coloration and how all of the newly available items are mismatched from the old stuff we'd get from the BX.

[Shuman 14]

Because of the small quantities

Total Manpower US Armed Forces (Using Google searches)

US Army      481,000 AC     274,500 RC     336,000 NG
USAF           350,000 AC     69,000 RC       110,000 NG
US Navy      342,000 AC     59,000 RC
USMC          182,000 AC     38,500 RC
USCG           44,000 AC       7,000 RC         26,000 Auxiliary
USSF            6,500 AC
CAP             54,000 (Senior and Cadets)

For Comparison

Rhode Island State Police     228 Troopers
California State Police           7,600 Officers

I would submit to you that CAP doesn't buy in small quantities, we are bigger (at least in electrons) than two active components and nearly all the State Police Forces.

I picked California and Rhode Island specifically as they have some rather specific uniforms requirements (beyond a navy blue shirt and pants) and neither seems to have trouble finding a supplier to make them.

[jeders]

<Reiterate purpose of starting the thread>

Not trying to push a narrative or ignite uniform fetish discussion.

Simply trying to provide sources for currently approved, climate-necessary uniforms.

If you don't mind used, eBay is still a source for reasonably priced ABU cold weather gear https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=abu+parka&_sacat=0

Of course, you can also contact the Lackland Composite Squadron, swrtx007@gmail.com, I believe they still have a rather large stock of ABU cold weather gear.

#stayontarget

Please

[NovemberWhiskey]

If you don't mind used, eBay is still a source for reasonably priced ABU cold weather gear

Yup; I got all my ABU outerwear on eBay, it was all new-with-tags and not unreasonably priced.

[Capt Thompson]

Then we all need to decide on an already existing uniform... be it USAF, another Branch of the military, police department, fire department, EMS agency, corrections department, etcetera... and go with that.

That's the thing sir, we all don't get to decide, so all of this continued discussion on changing to one uniform or another is moot until Ma Blue says otherwise.

In the meantime, any source of approved outerwear is greatly appreciated.

[Shuman 14]

Then we all need to decide on an already existing uniform... be it USAF, another Branch of the military, police department, fire department, EMS agency, corrections department, etcetera... and go with that.

That's the thing sir, we all don't get to decide, so all of this continued discussion on changing to one uniform or another is moot until Ma Blue says otherwise.

In the meantime, any source of approved outerwear is greatly appreciated.

Really? I call Bravo Sierra. Some how I don't believe that the USAF designed and approved our Corporate whites and greys.

Yes when it comes to their uniforms, our USAF-style uniforms, I understand they get to make the call but I don't see them giving two shakes of a dragons tail about corporate uniforms.

So the Uniform Board has no real mission, they meet to discuss meeting again next year?

What I'm saying is the membership of CAP should have some input, the National Uniform Board is not a dictatorship and they should take in account what the membership at large wants.

If the Uniform Board was to decide tomorrow that the new corporate field uniform was was a long sleeve day-glow yellow t-shirt with embroidered CAP seal in blue on the right breast and big CAP on the back which was to be worn with a matching day-glow yellow ball cap and olive green tactical/bdu pants with black boot... would the USAF care? Would the members at large buy it? After all, this would be a very practical SAR, UDF, GT uniform wouldn't it? Not para-military at all, I'm sure that would turn many members off.

The point being, the Uniform Board should come up with some options and recommendations for... be they Air Force based, Airline based, Army Air Corps based or First Responder based uniforms... submit these ideas to the members at large, have a vote, and then they take the winner back to the USAF and say, this is what the majority of our membership would like to have as a Dress/Service, Field/Working, and Flight Uniform. We'd like your input so we can make a final decision.   

[heliodoc]

So the Uniform Board has no real mission, they meet to discuss meeting again next year?  Good Question

IF they were a FT CAP volunteer organization like us at the Unit level, and really asked us and proved to us "what the Air Force wants."

Discussion here shows there isn't always that belief of economies of scale and we certainly could / would/ should do better in 80 years

[Capt Thompson]

The uniform board makes decisions that are then approved by the Air Force, and yes they do care about our corporate uniform. The thing is, I don't think the membership at large cares half as much about whites and greys as the folks here on CT. We've had whites and greys for decades and the only real change was the color of the rank slides. I think most folks with whites and greys in their closet would be more upset about buying a new uniform, buying new ranks, etc.

The system isn't anywhere near as broke as you make it out to be sir. Sure we're having issues with finding ABU's for Cadets, but the Senior corp uniform isn't really an issue. Every single week, it's either a discussion on changing the uniforms, or changing the rank structure, or sometimes both in the same thread. What is the fixation with warrant officer ranks and new corp uniforms, especially when the OP had nothing to do with either?

[Spam]

Here's a thought:

Lets compile a list of verbiage to help the average member (heck, the average mom and dad, because these are OUR CUSTOMERS, and we need to help them search and find the best available approved clothing). So, here's a start on taxonomy to use in a search engine for Ebay or other online sources:



ABU APECS Parka, All Purpose, Environmental, Camouflage NSN 8415-01-547-3518
(other spelled in listings: "Goretex" or "Gore Tex"") 
This is the ABU pattern (bluegreen, tiger stripe) outer wear parka shell (aka "barrier wear").
DO make sure that it specifies "ABU", and not "ACU" or some other pattern.
DO NOT use the term "coat" because that refers to the regular 4 pocket shirt.
DO make sure it shows that it has a fold out hood.
The CAP uniform regulation (CAPR39-1) reference is: 6.19 "ABU Gortex [sic] Parka (Figure 6.".


Fleece jacket, sage green, NSN 8415-010538-67
This is the lightweight fleece pullover that goes under the parka, also approved for wear by itself.
DO make sure the color is "Sage" green, not "Foliage" green (which is Army style).
DO NOT get tan, coyote colors etc. for wear with ABUs.
Has fleece everywhere except the shoulders, 
Has 2 hand pockets, 
Has green velcro loop patches to place your name tags.
CAP uniform regulation reference 6.1.10 "Green Fleece (Figure 6.".

ABU Goretex Trousers, NSN 8415-01-547-3010
DO make sure they are ABU bluegreen tiger stripe pattern only.
Designed to run a size large, as these are typically worn over your ABU trousers.
Has zippered side pockets to access your regular ABU trouser pockets when worn over them.



Anyways. A start. Any other ideas/inputs to guide searchers? Can y'all please check my data?
Could someone check me on the sage green vs foliage green for example?

R/s
Spam

#stayontarget

[Shuman 14]

Could someone check me on the sage green vs foliage green for example?

They are same thing, same design, same manufacturers, same color.

[Capt Thompson]

Could someone check me on the sage green vs foliage green for example?

They are same thing, same design, same manufacturers, same color.

That's sage advice......sorry, couldn't help it

[NovemberWhiskey]

What I think I know: the fleece is also referred to as the ECWCS Generation III Level 3 fleece. The foliage green color is the correct color for wear, and I'm pretty sure this is actually the same jacket that the Army wore with the ACU.

The one I have has the same NSN 8415-010538-67 as Spam suggests, and the NSN database describes the color as "(HUES) GREEN, FOLIAGE 504 MAIN BODY".

[SarDragon]

What I think I know: the fleece is also referred to as the ECWCS Generation III Level 3 fleece. The foliage green color is the correct color for wear, and I'm pretty sure this is actually the same jacket that the Army wore with the ACU.

The one I have has the same NSN 8415-010538-67 as Spam suggests, and the NSN database describes the color as "(HUES) GREEN, FOLIAGE 504 MAIN BODY".

The NSN in red doesn't look like the correct format - NNNN-01-NNN-NNNN

Also, those NSNs only refer to one size; other sizes have different numbers.

[NovemberWhiskey]

One of those zeroes should have been a dash... The NSNs prefixed with 8415-01-538-67 are the right ones.

The last two digits are 39 for S/R, 42 for M/R, 47 for L/R, 52 for L/L, 54 for XL/R and 68 for XL/L. 

[TheSkyHornet]

What I think I know: the fleece is also referred to as the ECWCS Generation III Level 3 fleece. The foliage green color is the correct color for wear, and I'm pretty sure this is actually the same jacket that the Army wore with the ACU.

The one I have has the same NSN 8415-010538-67 as Spam suggests, and the NSN database describes the color as "(HUES) GREEN, FOLIAGE 504 MAIN BODY".

On that note:
Please please please assist people when they purchase/locate fleeces. There are a lot of incorrect fleeces out there; although, they "look pretty close."

What you'll see an Army recruiter or competition team member wear is not necessarily the ACU-style Gen III fleece.

The fleece needs to have the CAP tape space on the left breast (right side from front view), name tape space on the right breast (left side from front view), and grade insignia space above the name tape on the right breast.

I've seen fleeces that have insignia velcro sewn over the wrong side, which tells me it's a handmade or it's a style from a possible competition team or general non-military wear (even though it looks similar). The team specialty patches usually go over the left breast, so it often gets mistaken for the insignia spot. There are a lot of surplus quick-finds out there which can be great and affordable (usually need quite a bit of washing, though); but make sure it's the correct item.

Correct appearance:


Also, please ensure that members are wearing the appropriate tapes/patches on the fleece. I rarely see members who have all of the patches on their fleece when they're out at activities.

[Capt Thompson]

What I think I know: the fleece is also referred to as the ECWCS Generation III Level 3 fleece. The foliage green color is the correct color for wear, and I'm pretty sure this is actually the same jacket that the Army wore with the ACU.

The one I have has the same NSN 8415-010538-67 as Spam suggests, and the NSN database describes the color as "(HUES) GREEN, FOLIAGE 504 MAIN BODY".

On that note:
Please please please assist people when they purchase/locate fleeces. There are a lot of incorrect fleeces out there; although, they "look pretty close."

What you'll see an Army recruiter or competition team member wear is not necessarily the ACU-style Gen III fleece.

The fleece needs to have the CAP tape space on the left breast (right side from front view), name tape space on the right breast (left side from front view), and grade insignia space above the name tape on the right breast.

I've seen fleeces that have insignia velcro sewn over the wrong side, which tells me it's a handmade or it's a style from a possible competition team or general non-military wear (even though it looks similar). The team specialty patches usually go over the left breast, so it often gets mistaken for the insignia spot. There are a lot of surplus quick-finds out there which can be great and affordable (usually need quite a bit of washing, though); but make sure it's the correct item.

Correct appearance:


Also, please ensure that members are wearing the appropriate tapes/patches on the fleece. I rarely see members who have all of the patches on their fleece when they're out at activities.

I purchased my fleece commercially, not a sage but a black from Tru-Spec for the BBDU's, and the velcro came in the pocket. I have a Cadet that got the sage version and it looks exact to the ones we got donated from the ANG, but same deal, the velcro was in the pockets and it's up to you to sew it on. I've seen a few like that where the member sewed them in the wrong spots, including one with the grade on the wrong side above the CAP tape.

[TheSkyHornet]

I purchased my fleece commercially, not a sage but a black from Tru-Spec for the BBDU's, and the velcro came in the pocket. I have a Cadet that got the sage version and it looks exact to the ones we got donated from the ANG, but same deal, the velcro was in the pockets and it's up to you to sew it on. I've seen a few like that where the member sewed them in the wrong spots, including one with the grade on the wrong side above the CAP tape.

It's quite common.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that someone looks at it and says "It goes on the left" (from the perspective of the viewer); so that's where it gets sewn, on the left (from the perspective of the wearer).

[Spam]

Thanks gentlemen, those are useful, cogent arguments and solid on thread posts!

Sage advice, indeed.

V/r
Spam

[LSThiker]

I've seen fleeces that have insignia velcro sewn over the wrong side, which tells me it's a handmade or it's a style from a possible competition team or general non-military wear (even though it looks similar).

That is the old Army Foliage Fleece.  The original green fleece had the rank insignia on the left.  Then the Army switched it to the right side (around 2008).  Soldiers could continue wearing the jacket until it needed to be DX'd.  CIF continued to issue them out until supplies were exhausted.

[Tokyo Tengu]

I would not want to waste squadron money buying ABU field jackets, ABU Gortexes and foliage green fleeces when we all know that these uniforms will be gone in short order.

The thermal underwear is the best idea until OCP pattern uniforms and outwear is approved.

I would not want to waste squadron money buying ABU field jackets, ABU Gortexes and foliage green fleeces when we all know that these uniforms will be gone in short order.

The thermal underwear is the best idea until OCP pattern uniforms and outwear is approved.

Does anyone have any idea when CAP is going to switch to the OCP pattern? I am a new member and just purchased my ABUs a month ago. I was seriously considering buying either a fleece or a Gortex jacket, but if the uniform switch is happening soon, it'd be a waste of money.

[NIN]

Does anyone have any idea when CAP is going to switch to the OCP pattern? I am a new member and just purchased my ABUs a month ago. I was seriously considering buying either a fleece or a Gortex jacket, but if the uniform switch is happening soon, it'd be a waste of money.

If/when it does happen, you can be reasonably assured that the wearout date for ABUs will likely be 5 years hence from the date of implementation of the new uniform. Like BDUs, your ABUs and associated outerwear won't immediately be rendered verboten, so even if you get a Goretex today, you'll have 5+ years of good wear out of it.

Unless you choose to ship over to the new uniform immediately, in which case: all new for you.

[Tokyo Tengu]

Does anyone have any idea when CAP is going to switch to the OCP pattern? I am a new member and just purchased my ABUs a month ago. I was seriously considering buying either a fleece or a Gortex jacket, but if the uniform switch is happening soon, it'd be a waste of money.

If/when it does happen, you can be reasonably assured that the wearout date for ABUs will likely be 5 years hence from the date of implementation of the new uniform. Like BDUs, your ABUs and associated outerwear won't immediately be rendered verboten, so even if you get a Goretex today, you'll have 5+ years of good wear out of it.

Unless you choose to ship over to the new uniform immediately, in which case: all new for you.

Whew! That's a relief. It's probably a bit late in the season to be buying winter wear, but it's something to consider soon because I think ABUs, especially in my 2XL sizes are going to be increasingly hard to find in the months/years ahead.  Or, I could lose weight. That'd probably be a better plan.  As for shipping over to the OCPs immediately, I can just imagine what the wife would say and I like my black zippered boots very much, thank you!

[NIN]

As for shipping over to the OCPs immediately, I can just imagine what the wife would say and I like my black zippered boots very much, thank you!

Two things: 

1. Black boots are probably here to stay.  Mostly because:
 a) People already have them, one less added expense to a switch;
 b) Boots are generally the largest single cost to any of the basic uniforms. Black boots are available relatively inexpensively;
 c) Black boots are worn with more than just the USAF-style uniform, and can, technically, be worn with blues (although I'd be surprised if that happens often).
 d) The USAF seems OK with black boots in our USAF-style uniforms as an additional layer of "distinctiveness."

2. Re 2XL ABUs: I don't know your specifics, perhaps you're "super tall" and thats why you need bigger ABUs, but I would ask you to take a hard look at CAPR 39-1, Attachment 2, just to be sure you meet the standards for the USAF style uniform.  In my experience, and again I don't know your specifics over the Internet, the vast preponderance of people who claim to need USAF-style 2XL uniforms generally should actually be wearing corporates. YMMV, of course, and some people "hide it well,"  or are very tall and thus need proportionally larger uniforms.

(I was 237 lbs at one point about 11 years ago, and told people "I hid it well." Yeah, I hid it well. From myself...)

[Tokyo Tengu]

(I was 237 lbs at one point about 11 years ago, and told people "I hid it well." Yeah, I hid it well. From myself...)

Point taken. Time to get back on the keto bandwagon. I didn't invest this much money in ABUs to stick them in a closet and go corporate.

[EDIT: Fix0red your quote tags, sir -NIN]

[N6RVT]

If/when it does happen, you can be reasonably assured that the wearout date for ABUs will likely be 5 years hence from the date of implementation of the new uniform. Like BDUs, your ABUs and associated outerwear won't immediately be rendered verboten, so even if you get a Goretex today, you'll have 5+ years of good wear out of it. Unless you choose to ship over to the new uniform immediately, in which case: all new for you.

What I would like to see is the OCP pattern uniform in the BBDU color.  We could have that tomorrow, The USAF would love the idea, existing insignia, accessories and outergarments would work, and it would be closer to USAF than the obsolete ABU we now have.

If Vanguard can make pink ABU's, they can make this.

[Capt Thompson]

(I was 237 lbs at one point about 11 years ago, and told people "I hid it well." Yeah, I hid it well. From myself...)

Point taken. Time to get back on the keto bandwagon. I didn't invest this much money in ABUs to stick them in a closet and go corporate.

[EDIT: Fix0red your quote tags, sir -NIN]

Spence, you're new around here, welcome to CapTalk! One bit of advice, if you want to turn a good discussion into a raging argument very quickly on CT, mention OCP's. Until an ICL from NHQ/CC says otherwise, they don't exist in our world, but everyone here will have an opinion and will turn it into a heated debate until a mod shuts the thread down.

What I would like to see is the OCP pattern uniform in the BBDU color.  We could have that tomorrow, The USAF would love the idea, existing insignia, accessories and outergarments would work, and it would be closer to USAF than the obsolete ABU we now have.

This would be a great idea, although many wouldn't see the point in switching from BBDU to BOCP, until they do switch we would at least all match in color and then as the BBDU's wear out they can be replaced with BOCP. I approve, send it up the chain!

[Spam]

As the OP, while I love the tissue and fantasies being expended on the usual uniform fantasies, I would like to suggest that my intent for this thread was to gather ABU sources.  No offense, but I had hoped to just compile information here to help parents/members buy stuff.

E.g. correct stock numbers, size info, tips, and sources - thanks so much to y'all who have pitched in with corrections/updates for the approved stuff.  Even if you hate it or don't fit it. LOL

Now, if you want fuzzy pink berets (camo) on which to pin hypothetical Master Rating Sensitivity Badges, or Knights of Columbus style admirals hats with specialty track coded color feather plumes, please start your own thread, where I'd absolutely love to have fun with that. (Hey why not? Most of captalk just talks about uniforms, not actual operational flying, cadet programs, or God forbid aerospace education missions).



Cheers
Spam

[heliodoc]

Agreed....I love it here and about uniforms and trying help peeps out...but apparently reading 39-1 is a project.

If one is having a bad day....come to Captalk about uniforms....on some days it can leave one in stitches

[Eclipse]

operational flying, cadet programs, or God forbid aerospace education missions

Two of these things are less likely these days then CAP getting OCPs.

[Shuman 14]

What I would like to see is the OCP pattern uniform in the BBDU color.  We could have that tomorrow, The USAF would love the idea, existing insignia, accessories and outergarments would work, and it would be closer to USAF than the obsolete ABU we now have.

If Vanguard can make pink ABU's, they can make this.

You mean like this? https://www.militarysurplus.eu/product-eng-36307-UNIFORM-SET-ACU-2-0-PENTAGON-R-NAVY-BLUE.html

[Shuman 14]

Knights of Columbus style admirals hats with specialty track coded color feather plumes

It was called a Chapeau. The color of the plumes did designate the office being.

It's no longer authorized for wear in the KOC, the uniform headgear is now a black beret.

FYI, I'm a Knight of the Fourth Degree.

[Tokyo Tengu]

Spence, you're new around here, welcome to CapTalk! One bit of advice, if you want to turn a good discussion into a raging argument very quickly on CT, mention OCP's. Until an ICL from NHQ/CC says otherwise, they don't exist in our world, but everyone here will have an opinion and will turn it into a heated debate until a mod shuts the thread down.

Roger that, Captain, and thank you for your kind welcome. Yup. I am a total noob but it's very interesting and I am learning a lot. I can already see that CapTalk is going to be a go-to resource for a lot of things that I am having trouble wrapping my mind around. I'll refrain from any further mention of OCPs. I'm just glad I won't have to go out and buy a set after having invested so much in a full set of ABUs. My lovely and gracious wife would be "upset".

[Okayish Aviator]

Although I'm probably in a flight suit more than any other uniform, I've had an exceedingly hard time finding ABU anything in stock anywhere. Florida (where I'm at) has quite a lot of rain through the spring, summer and fall months. I've been looking for an APECS parka to use, but it's been very difficult.

Realistically, although we can feel happy that many units got donations of items or that we see a lot of stuff on closeout sale, we're going to very shortly see that it's all but impossible to find any new stock for ABU's. It's drying up and right now I'd even go as far to say it's worse than we had it with BDU's when we switched.

I'm sure NHQ is on it, but logistically it makes a lot of sense to switch to something used in volume by 3 branches (since that would make it cheaper for our membership). The availability of cold and wet weather gear, as well as all the other companies using the same pattern for other equipment helps too.

[Jester]

What I would like to see is the OCP pattern uniform in the BBDU color.  We could have that tomorrow, The USAF would love the idea, existing insignia, accessories and outergarments would work, and it would be closer to USAF than the obsolete ABU we now have.

If Vanguard can make pink ABU's, they can make this.

You mean like this? https://www.militarysurplus.eu/product-eng-36307-UNIFORM-SET-ACU-2-0-PENTAGON-R-NAVY-BLUE.html

This would be perfect.  I haven't been able to find something like this that wasn't OCONUS only.  I found some Tru-Spec (I think ) but it didn't have velcro and was really expensive.

[Shuman 14]

This would be perfect.  I haven't been able to find something like this that wasn't OCONUS only.  I found some Tru-Spec (I think ) but it didn't have velcro and was really expensive.

I hear you. Funny how foreign producers anticipate our needs BEFORE domestic ones do.

[N6RVT]

What I would like to see is the OCP pattern uniform in the BBDU color.  We could have that tomorrow, The USAF would love the idea, existing insignia, accessories and outergarments would work, and it would be closer to USAF than the obsolete ABU we now have.

You mean like this? https://www.militarysurplus.eu/product-eng-36307-UNIFORM-SET-ACU-2-0-PENTAGON-R-NAVY-BLUE.html

This would be perfect.  I haven't been able to find something like this that wasn't OCONUS only.  I found some Tru-Spec (I think ) but it didn't have velcro and was really expensive.

90 Euros isn't cheap either.  Bu this is indeed what I meant.

[Okayish Aviator]

Just FYI;

I just heard from down the chain that Gen Phelka is actively seeking approval for OCP's for CAP wear. This is by and large due to the supply shortages on ABU's. I don't have any information regarding the timeline but we'll probably hear something official in the next 6-9 months.

[armyguy]

What I would like to see is the OCP pattern uniform in the BBDU color.  We could have that tomorrow, The USAF would love the idea, existing insignia, accessories and outergarments would work, and it would be closer to USAF than the obsolete ABU we now have.

You mean like this? https://www.militarysurplus.eu/product-eng-36307-UNIFORM-SET-ACU-2-0-PENTAGON-R-NAVY-BLUE.html

This would be perfect.  I haven't been able to find something like this that wasn't OCONUS only.  I found some Tru-Spec (I think ) but it didn't have velcro and was really expensive.

90 Euros isn't cheap either.  Bu this is indeed what I meant.

https://www.mycg.uscg.mil/News/Article/2839899/new-uniforms-coming-soon/

[Shuman 14]

https://www.mycg.uscg.mil/News/Article/2839899/new-uniforms-coming-soon/

Now that wouldn't be a bad replacement for the BBDU. As long as they don't add the embroidered USGC emblem to blouse and trouser pocket to the final design like did with the current ones.

I'll just throw this out there. USCGAux members can buy USCG uniforms directly from the Coast Guard Exchange and they even have some limited USCGAux items in their inventory.

You can order over the phone, give them your member number and they will let order over the phone with debt/credit cards.

They will only sell you what Auxies are allowed to have.

If CAP were to adopted this uniform as well, maybe National can work out a similar arraignment with the Coast Guard Exchange and we could provide CAPIDs and they will sell us that uniform (and maybe the light blue shirts for the Service Uniform too, they are the same shirts) directly.

[armyguy]

https://www.mycg.uscg.mil/News/Article/2839899/new-uniforms-coming-soon/

Now that wouldn't be a bad replacement for the BBDU. As long as they don't add the embroidered USGC emblem to blouse and trouser pocket to the final design like did with the current ones.

I'll just throw this out there. USCGAux members can buy USCG uniforms directly from the Coast Guard Exchange and they even have some limited USCGAux items in their inventory.

You can order over the phone, give them your member number and they will let order over the phone with debt/credit cards.

They will only sell you what Auxies are allowed to have.

If CAP were to adopted this uniform as well, maybe National can work out a similar arraignment with the Coast Guard Exchange and we could provide CAPIDs and they will sell us that uniform (and maybe the light blue shirts for the Service Uniform too, they are the same shirts) directly.

I am not 100% sure, but I believe they have them available w/o the USCG emblem since they are also work by USPHS & NOAA.

[Eclipse]

to adopted this uniform as well, maybe National can work out a similar arraignment with the Coast Guard Exchange and we could provide CAPIDs and they will sell us that uniform (and maybe the light blue shirts for the Service Uniform too, they are the same shirts) directly.

NHQ isn't even able to get what is supposed to be a supplier authorized by regulation to
accept orders from CAP members, let alone supplying info to the Coast Guard Exchange.

[NIN]

I know its not "winter outerwear," but this is a helpful thing for uniform sizing, especially if you have older BDUs laying around to compare.

[UWONGO2]

I just heard from down the chain that Gen Phelka is actively seeking approval for OCP's for CAP wear. This is by and large due to the supply shortages on ABU's. I don't have any information regarding the timeline but we'll probably hear something official in the next 6-9 months.

That is contrary to what he said at the command council meeting.