Does anybody know where to buy a magnetic ribbon rack?

[NCRcadet]

Where can I buy a magnetic ribbon rack? Any ideas?

[Paul Creed III]

Looks like https://www.ultrathin.com/ can do magnetic racks.

I have had several sets of their pin-backed racks and they are VERY well done. I only use UltraThin racks now.

[GroundHawg]

Make sure you check and double check your order if you decide to use Ultrathin

I have had issues in the past with order of precedence and outright omissions

[PHall]

Make sure you check and double check your order if you decide to use Ultrathin

I have had issues in the past with order of precedence and outright omissions

I've had no problems with order of precedence with them.
You do need to make sure you're using the CORRECT order of precedence when you're selecting the ribbons and like they ask you to do, check your order before you hit that submit button.
In the end it's up to you make sure it's right before you hit submit.
And if they do make an error they will normally fix it for free.

[SarDragon]

Keep in mind that magnetic ribbon holders are best used only on shirts. Their holding power on coats are limited, and you have a much greater tendency for them to move or fall off.

[baronet68]

Make sure you check and double check your order if you decide to use Ultrathin

I have had issues in the past with order of precedence and outright omissions

If you use the McChord Rack Builder to build a senior member rack, and copy/paste the provided results into the Ultrathin form, your odds of getting it right are greatly improved.

Also, if you order your ribbons/medals mounted by Vanguard, they use the McChord tool to determine award precedence and attachment configurations before providing your quote for their service.

Disclaimers - Use at your own risk. Ultrathin copy/paste not available for cadet racks (but you could probably make it work if you were clever about it). Keep arms and legs inside vehicle at all times. No commercial relationship exists between McChord and Ultrathin. Your browser may vary. Remember that Vanguard is Vanguard. Wait one hour after swimming before building ribbon racks.

[GroundHawg]

I think that if I were to order a CAP only ribbon rack, that they would probably be good to go. However, when I add in military, civilian, and foreign awards they are in the wrong order or they incorrectly tell me that the ribbon/medal isn't authorized for wear. 

[PHall]

I think that if I were to order a CAP only ribbon rack, that they would probably be good to go. However, when I add in military, civilian, and foreign awards they are in the wrong order or they incorrectly tell me that the ribbon/medal isn't authorized for wear. 

Funny, I've ordered combined CAP and military racks with no problems.
Their program is designed to work with "normal" orders, i.e. 99.99% of the orders they receive.
If you're doing really unusual stuff then you need to contact them directly and explain what's going on.

[TheSkyHornet]

How long do their orders usually take?

Just ordered mine. I rarely wear ribbons, but mine are scattered everywhere. Might as well get some brand-new ones just in case.

[PHall]

How long do their orders usually take?

Just ordered mine. I rarely wear ribbons, but mine are scattered everywhere. Might as well get some brand-new ones just in case.

Usually have my orders in a week.

[N6RVT]

I think that if I were to order a CAP only ribbon rack, that they would probably be good to go. However, when I add in military, civilian, and foreign awards they are in the wrong order or they incorrectly tell me that the ribbon/medal isn't authorized for wear.

I have never had an order of precedence issue, but have repeatedly run into the "This is not authorized" problem.  It would be so easy for them to give an option to turn the checker of for those of use who actually know what the regulations say.  You can still work around it though - you just add some other ribbon as a placeholder where the supposedly unauthorized ribbon is supposed to to go and tell them in the notes to change it.  And then to be safe call them on the phone to make sure they fix it.

[PHall]

I think that if I were to order a CAP only ribbon rack, that they would probably be good to go. However, when I add in military, civilian, and foreign awards they are in the wrong order or they incorrectly tell me that the ribbon/medal isn't authorized for wear.

I have never had an order of precedence issue, but have repeatedly run into the "This is not authorized" problem.  It would be so easy for them to give an option to turn the checker of for those of use who actually know what the regulations say.  You can still work around it though - you just add some other ribbon as a placeholder where the supposedly unauthorized ribbon is supposed to to go and tell them in the notes to change it.  And then to be safe call them on the phone to make sure they fix it.

Telling them what you really want in the Notes block usually clears things up.
And they're pretty good about e-mailing/calling if they have a question.

[Capt Thompson]

Where can I buy a magnetic ribbon rack? Any ideas?

It appears the OP may be a Cadet based on the name? If I was a Spaatz Cadet, completed the program and there was no chance I would be earning any more ribbons, I might consider going to Ultrathin, but otherwise I wouldn't drop $20+ on a ribbon rack that will only be valid for a month or two until you get your next ribbon. Keep in mind, while Ultrathin can update ribbon racks for a fee, this gets expensive if you're updating often.

[baronet68]

Where can I buy a magnetic ribbon rack? Any ideas?

It appears the OP may be a Cadet based on the name? If I was a Spaatz Cadet, completed the program and there was no chance I would be earning any more ribbons, I might consider going to Ultrathin, but otherwise I wouldn't drop $20+ on a ribbon rack that will only be valid for a month or two until you get your next ribbon. Keep in mind, while Ultrathin can update ribbon racks for a fee, this gets expensive if you're updating often.

That's why the McChord Rack Builder doesn't generate the Ultrathin code for cadet racks. 

However, different people have different priorities.  I know a current CAP cadet whose father is former military (dad also has a daughter currently at West Point).  Dad has no problem dropping the necessary coin to get his cadet a new rack every six months because "appearance is important". 

[fish7days]

snaprackusa.com

[Shuman 14]

The biggest problem I see with the various thin ribbon makers is that they want to put the AFEOA in its military order of precedence, and not CAPs.

If that is your only military award, it's not an issue, their rack builders will load on top of all CAP ribbons, but for those of us who are former/current military, the builders want to put it elsewhere.

You have to call/email them directly and they can manually add it in the correct order.

Also, the rack builders don't seem to have the Crisis Service Award programmed in yet. 

[Larry Mangum]

NCRCadet, since cadet's gain new ribbons on a regular basis, it is somewhat cost prohibitive for cadets to purchase and maintain ultrathin / magnet ribbon racks. 

[Pinecone]

So, to get this straight, I was a Cadet MANY years ago and earned my Mitchell.  So, as a Senior Member, I can wear that ribbon?

And I cannot wear my military ribbons on the aviator shirt?  Not a big deal, I only have the Air Force Training and Longevity ribbons.

Thanks

[PHall]

So, to get this straight, I was a Cadet MANY years ago and earned my Mitchell.  So, as a Senior Member, I can wear that ribbon?

And I cannot wear my military ribbons on the aviator shirt?  Not a big deal, I only have the Air Force Training and Longevity ribbons.

Thanks

Yes you can wear your highest Cadet Award/Achievement ribbon as a Senior and yes you can not wear any military ribbons on the aviator shirt. This includes the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award ribbon CAP was awarded several years ago.

[Shuman 14]

snaprackusa.com

I think that would be great for cadets who change/add ribbons very frequently, but for Seniors and Military, not so much.

The only advantage I see (maybe) is if you are Military (USAF, USAFR, AFNG) and CAP, and use the same coat for both.

Snap on/Snap off the CAP ribbons as needed while the mount stays in place.

Otherwise you still have the issues of devices being off center of ribbons because you mounted them and then slide ribbon on the bar and the pins behind dragged and moved the devices.

Thin Ribbons, regardless of which company mounted them, still will look better.

Also, with that much space between the shirt/coat and the ribbon bars, that's just asking for them to get caught on something  and pulled off.

[Shuman 14]

Yes you can wear your highest Cadet Award/Achievement ribbon as a Senior and yes you can not wear any military ribbons on the aviator shirt. This includes the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award ribbon CAP was awarded several years ago.

Fanning Flames here... but... I still say that is a silly and ill-conceived regulation. I'd call it stupid, but I'm trying to be nicer in my old age.

People like to say "you can't wear military decorations on civilian clothing", which the CAP Corporate Uniforms are, but this is not true. If you think this true, please local the Military Regulation or Federal Law that states that and post it here.

What you will find, in the Regulations, regardless of Branch of Service, is the proper wear of Decorations on civilian clothing at formal events (i.e. Morning Dress and White Tie) and on business attire when attending military and Veterans events (i.e. Memorial Day Services, Military Funeral, etc.).

There are numerous civilian organizations... Police, Fire, EMS, EMA, VSO... that authorize the wear of Military Decorations on their "civilian" uniforms, you never see the Air Force filing suit or sending a "strongly worded letter" to these organizations directing them to stop; but for some reason, CAP gets held to a higher standard and we cannot.

All this rule does is hinder recruiting and retention of prior service Senior Members, who for one reason or another, cannot wear an USAF-style uniform, and are denied the ability to take pride in their former military service on their current CAP "civilian" uniform and lets not mention all the CAP members from 01OCT2012 - 31AUG2016 who earned the AFOEA and cannot wear a decoration, earned for CAP Service, on a CAP "civilian" uniform.

Again Silly and Ill-conceived.

I'm waiting for the day a MOH Awardee joins CAP and can't an USAF-style uniform, but Federal Law and Regulation states he/she may wear the MOH on "Appropriate Civilian Attire" and at "their pleasure".

[Shuman 14]

ARMED FORCES RIBBONS AND EMBLEMS
LAPD officers that are military veterans are highly encouraged to wear their military ribbons on their LAPD uniform. LAPD authorizes military and LAPD ribbons to be worn on our LAPD class A uniform during authorized events and inspections.

Join the Los Angeles Police Department



LAPD Video

[PHall]

Yes you can wear your highest Cadet Award/Achievement ribbon as a Senior and yes you can not wear any military ribbons on the aviator shirt. This includes the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award ribbon CAP was awarded several years ago.

Fanning Flames here... but... I still say that is a silly and ill-conceived regulation. I'd call it stupid, but I'm trying to be nicer in my old age.

People like to say "you can't wear military decorations on civilian clothing", which the CAP Corporate Uniforms are, but this is not true. If you think this true, please local the Military Regulation or Federal Law that states that and post it here.

What you will find, in the Regulations, regardless of Branch of Service, is the proper wear of Decorations on civilian clothing at formal events (i.e. Morning Dress and White Tie) and on business attire when attending military and Veterans events (i.e. Memorial Day Services, Military Funeral, etc.).

There are numerous civilian organizations... Police, Fire, EMS, EMA, VSO... that authorize the wear of Military Decorations on their "civilian" uniforms, you never see the Air Force filing suit or sending a "strongly worded letter" to these organizations directing them to stop; but for some reason, CAP gets held to a higher standard and we cannot.

All this rule does is hinder recruiting and retention of prior service Senior Members, who for one reason or another, cannot wear an USAF-style uniform, and are denied the ability to take pride in their former military service on their current CAP "civilian" uniform and lets not mention all the CAP members from 01OCT2012 - 31AUG2016 who earned the AFOEA and cannot wear a decoration, earned for CAP Service, on a CAP "civilian" uniform.

Again Silly and Ill-conceived.

I'm waiting for the day a MOH Awardee joins CAP and can't an USAF-style uniform, but Federal Law and Regulation states he/she may wear the MOH on "Appropriate Civilian Attire" and at "their pleasure".

Silly and ill conceived it may be but that's the rules. Maybe you're better at changing the Air Force's mind then the rest of us are. Have at it sir. We'll await the news of your success!

[baronet68]

So, to get this straight, I was a Cadet MANY years ago and earned my Mitchell.  So, as a Senior Member, I can wear that ribbon?

You can also wear any activity/service ribbons (e.g. encampment, red service, IACE, etc.) earned as a cadet that are still on today's senior precedence list.

The McChord Rack Builder shows them all.

[Shuman 14]

Silly and ill conceived it may be but that's the rules. Maybe you're better at changing the Air Force's mind then the rest of us are. Have at it sir. We'll await the news of your success!

At least you agree it is silly and ill-conceived.

The real question is, has anyone tried to change the USAF's mind?

When was that regulation put in place? Did anyone at the time question it or express concern? Was it ever suggested again?

Like OCPs and other uniform issues, are they ever re-addressed, or is it the "that's what we've always done" response to most things in CAP.

Yes there are more pressing things in CAP, I'll throw out updating the GTM/UDF qualification standards as one, but that doesn't mean we can't work on several things at once.

Every year we hold a CAP uniform board, do the minutes, rejections and recommendations get forwarded to the USAF for review? Do they (USAF) ever respond?

I understand there were problems in "the past", I know the history of the USAF fixing those problems (i.e. Berry Boards, Pineda's Airliner uniform ensembles, black boots, etc.) but those incidents were how many years ago? "Testingate Tony" got fired in October of 2007, over FORTEEN YEARS ago, so are the USAF Leadership that had issue with his ensembles even still in the Service today?

These are fair questions to ask. Is it really a big deal to the Air Force (today) if a Vietnam Veteran wears his CIB on CAP white shirt or BBDUs? If it is, can they (USAF) explain why it is?

I like to rock the boat. That's probably why I'll never see full Colonel in the Army before I retire and the same reason no one in CAP will ever let me have a CC beyond squadron level.

If I was appointed to the CAP National Uniform Board, I'd rock the boat like an iceberg hitting the Titanic. I don't think they (CAP leadership and/or the USAF) would like that.

That being said, feel free to nominate me, if you're that high enough in CAP to do it. I'll gladly serve in the position to the best of my ability.

[PHall]

Saying that stuff here to us minions is nice, but it won't change anything.
Now if you were able to convince the two people who can make a difference, the National Commander and the Commander CAP-USAF, you might make some progress. Like I said, we await word of your success.

[etodd]

Its great to have this "Uniforms & Awards" forum online. None of the "minions" really have any real say or input.  But this forum gives everyone a place to pontificate their ideas, and to also vent their frustrations. Just spinning wheels, but everyone needs to relieve their angst somewhere.

Meaningless on the one hand, but psychologically helpful.  A good thing.

[Shuman 14]

Saying that stuff here to us minions is nice, but it won't change anything.
Now if you were able to convince the two people who can make a difference, the National Commander and the Commander CAP-USAF, you might make some progress. Like I said, we await word of your success.

Translation: You are unwilling to help me.

Thanks for being part of the problem.

[Shuman 14]

Its great to have this "Uniforms & Awards" forum online. None of the "minions" really have any real say or input.  But this forum gives everyone a place to pontificate their ideas, and to also vent their frustrations. Just spinning wheels, but everyone needs to relieve their angst somewhere.

Meaningless on the one hand, but psychologically helpful.  A good thing.

And this is the heart of the problem. In the Army I know how to send recommendations to the Army Uniform Board. As a USCGAux member, I can send recommendations to the Coast Guard Uniform Board.

At the very least you normally get an automated email response saying whatever you sent was received.

Not so much in CAP.

Up the chain here means some good old boy curmudgeon at Group, Wing or Region can yank any idea "they" don't like before it ever reaches a National Uniform Board.

All CC's are supposed to have an open door policy, yet I can find nowhere online a way to directly contact the CAP National CC to utilize that policy.

As to the CAP-USAF Commander, Col Wootan was easy enough to find in the DOD White Pages, no business phone listed but his email is there for those who have access.

I just wish there was a way to directly contact the National Uniform Board. If the way does exist, it should be much more common knowledge. It should not be operating in a vacuum and it should be accepting input from the membership at large.

[Ned]

The process to recommend changes to the uniform is pretty clearly laid out in Chapter 13 of the 39-1.

Direct contact with the NUC by members is not part of the process.

Speaking as a former member of the NUC, that is a Good Thing.

"Use the system, Luke"

[Pinecone]

Fanning Flames here... but... I still say that is a silly and ill-conceived regulation. I'd call it stupid, but I'm trying to be nicer in my old age.

What you will find, in the Regulations, regardless of Branch of Service, is the proper wear of Decorations on civilian clothing at formal events (i.e. Morning Dress and White Tie) and on business attire when attending military and Veterans events (i.e. Memorial Day Services, Military Funeral, etc.).

All this rule does is hinder recruiting and retention of prior service Senior Members, who for one reason or another, cannot wear an USAF-style uniform, and are denied the ability to take pride in their former military service on their current CAP "civilian" uniform and lets not mention all the CAP members from 01OCT2012 - 31AUG2016 who earned the AFOEA and cannot wear a decoration, earned for CAP Service, on a CAP "civilian" uniform.

Again Silly and Ill-conceived.

Agreed.

I earned my USAF wings, but cannot wear them on anything except USAF type uniforms.  Not even a flight suit.

Sorry, but earning those wings is a MUCH bigger accomplishment that earning my CAP wings.

And yes, depending on the event, I do wear them on a civilian suit.  No, not big ones, but miniature lapel ones.

[Jester]

The biggest problem I see with the various thin ribbon makers is that they want to put the AFEOA in its military order of precedence, and not CAPs.

If that is your only military award, it's not an issue, their rack builders will load on top of all CAP ribbons, but for those of us who are former/current military, the builders want to put it elsewhere.

You have to call/email them directly and they can manually add it in the correct order.

Also, the rack builders don't seem to have the Crisis Service Award programmed in yet. 

The trick is to throw some other ribbon that would be in the CAP-correct spot for that ribbon, then specify in the order remarks that it's basically a spacer/placeholder and request it be replaced with the AFOEA. 

Also helps you get a better handle on the layout if you're staggering them, going 4-wide, etc.

I have to do this with the AFOEA and the NDOSM since Ultra-Thin won't let that one be selected when using CAP order of precedence.

[Shuman 14]

NDOSM

Huh?

Do you mean a National Defense Service Medal (NDSM), or is a NDOSM something else?

[Shuman 14]

The process to recommend changes to the uniform is pretty clearly laid out in Chapter 13 of the 39-1.

Direct contact with the NUC by members is not part of the process.

Speaking as a former member of the NUC, that is a Good Thing.

"Use the system, Luke"

CHAPTER 13 – UNIFORM POLICY

13.1. Supplements. Supplements to this regulation may be established at the Region or Wing echelons and
apply to all individuals aligned under those echelons. Supplements below Wing level are not authorized.
Supplements will be coordinated with higher headquarters in accordance with CAPR 1-2, Publications
Management. All supplements approved by CAP/DP will be posted on the CAP website.

13.2. Uniform Change Submission Process.

13.2.1. Step 1 – Submission. Recommendations for changes to the uniform are submitted
through the Chain of Command to CAP/DP. Recommendations should be submitted in memorandum
format. Supporting documentation, to include photos of proposed changes, or proposed language, should
be included in the memorandum as an attachment.

13.2.2. Step 2 – Review by Chain of Command. Recommendations for change will be routed
to the echelon commander of the proposer's unit of assignment. Each commander in the member's chain
of command (unit, group, wing, and region as appropriate) must concur for the recommendation to be
advanced to the next level with the region-level concurrence sent to CAP/DP. Commanders of units at the
National level (NHQ-NHQ-XXX) will process requests directly to CAP/DP. Recommendations may be
returned with requests for information.

13.2.3. Step 3 – Review by the National Uniform Committee. CAP/DP will send the request
for change, as endorsed by the chain of command to the Chair of the NUC. The Chair will send the change
to the committee for review, comment, and a vote on the recommendation (approximately a 30-day
timeline). This is the appropriate step to get feedback from CAP-USAF/CC or their designee.

13.2.4. Step 4 – Initial Review by CAP/CC. Following review by the NUC, the Chair
forwards the change submission and the NUC's recommendation through the National Executive Officer
to CAP/CC .

13.2.5. Step 5 – Membership Feedback. If CAP/CC agrees to consider the requested change,
the proposed change may be posted on the NHQ website, in the appropriate e-Service module, to receive
feedback from the Command Council for approximately 30 days.

13.2.6. If CAP/CC does not agree to consider the requested change, the submitter, and their
chain of command will be notified by memo of the decision.

13.2.7. Step 6 – Comment Review. Comments as received are collected and collated by
CAP/DP and the NUC Chair, and a final recommendation made to CAP/CC based on feedback.
13.2.8. Step 7 – Final CAP/CC Review. CAP/CC will either accept the original suggestion,
accept an amended suggestion, or deny the request.

13.2.9. If the suggestion is denied, the submitter, and their chain of command may be notified
by memo of the decision.

13.2.10.If the suggestion is accepted by CAP/CC in its original or a modified form and does
not require USAF approval, it will be forwarded to CAP/DP for implementation into this regulation and
the chain of command will be notified.

13.2.11.If the suggestion is accepted by CAP/CC in its original or a modified form and does
require USAF approval, the item will be forwarded to CAP-USAF for their review and approval. Upon a
reply of determination from CAP-USAF, the procedures in paragraphs 13.2.9 (denial) or 13.2.10
(acceptance) will be followed.

MARK E. SMITH
Major General, CAP
Commander

And as I pointed out, Step Two above, allows for anyone in the Chain of Command to use their personal preferences (and personnel dislikes) to a reasonable recommendation, to make it go away.

It's a suggestion box connected to a shredder.

That's not how military Uniform Boards work, they allow for general input. CAP does not. That's a good old boy system that does the membership a disservice.

It's not a "Good Thing", it's very bad, especially in a volunteer organization.

I fully understand that it would create much more work for the NUC to have to go through many more submissions than in the past but then you shouldn't accept the position if you are not willing to accept the duties and responsibilities (and work) that comes with it.

NED I respect you, I respect your years of Service in CAP and I respect the levels of responsibility you rose to in CAP... I hope you can see/read this and know I'm not attacking you.

I'm trying to attack a system that really doesn't work, that promotes the status quo and stifles change and only allow for consensus by the senior leadership (i.e. the good old boys).

A simple fix would be all recommendations to go through the chain of command, with a "Concur" or "Non-Concur" at each level of Command but allows for all submitted recommendations to reach the NUC and then based on their review, go back down the chain to the submitter as outline in Step Seven above. At least then when a member takes the time to write up a properly formatted memorandum and a plan with the supporting documents... it doesn't disappear because someone at [[Insert level of command here]] doesn't like you.

Thank you for letting me rant.

[Jester]

NDOSM

Huh?

Do you mean a National Defense Service Medal (NDSM), or is a NDOSM something else?

Nuclear Deterrence Operations Service Medal

[Capt Thompson]

Yes you can wear your highest Cadet Award/Achievement ribbon as a Senior and yes you can not wear any military ribbons on the aviator shirt. This includes the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award ribbon CAP was awarded several years ago.

Fanning Flames here... but... I still say that is a silly and ill-conceived regulation. I'd call it stupid, but I'm trying to be nicer in my old age.

People like to say "you can't wear military decorations on civilian clothing", which the CAP Corporate Uniforms are, but this is not true. If you think this true, please local the Military Regulation or Federal Law that states that and post it here.

What you will find, in the Regulations, regardless of Branch of Service, is the proper wear of Decorations on civilian clothing at formal events (i.e. Morning Dress and White Tie) and on business attire when attending military and Veterans events (i.e. Memorial Day Services, Military Funeral, etc.).

There are numerous civilian organizations... Police, Fire, EMS, EMA, VSO... that authorize the wear of Military Decorations on their "civilian" uniforms, you never see the Air Force filing suit or sending a "strongly worded letter" to these organizations directing them to stop; but for some reason, CAP gets held to a higher standard and we cannot.

All this rule does is hinder recruiting and retention of prior service Senior Members, who for one reason or another, cannot wear an USAF-style uniform, and are denied the ability to take pride in their former military service on their current CAP "civilian" uniform and lets not mention all the CAP members from 01OCT2012 - 31AUG2016 who earned the AFOEA and cannot wear a decoration, earned for CAP Service, on a CAP "civilian" uniform.

Again Silly and Ill-conceived.

I'm waiting for the day a MOH Awardee joins CAP and can't an USAF-style uniform, but Federal Law and Regulation states he/she may wear the MOH on "Appropriate Civilian Attire" and at "their pleasure".

I wonder if there are any statistics kept by the R&R folks, perhaps NIN can chime in if there are, but in my years with CAP I don't recall hearing a single person say they are quitting because they can't wear a ribbon they earned 30 years prior on their CAP whites. You keep referring to this as a problem, but I would be willing to bet if there are statistics kept on this, they would point in the opposite direction. Most people wear their CAP stuff on their CAP uniform, and there are plenty of chances in CAP to earn bling without having to dig in the closet and pull pins from an old Army uniform to jazz up your whites a bit.

Do I respect the fact that you earned a CIB? 100%. Am I worried you might quit the program if you can't wear it on your whites? If that's what's motivating you to stay, you're holding on by a thread (or a badge, ribbon, etc) anyway, and probably aren't long for this program.

[heliodoc]

I am in agreement with LTC Clune in his responses. I didn't join CAP for the bling  or the uniform. As former E6 in the RM, this organizations NUC needs a complete overhaul, if not, some better oversight. Not sure if i buy all the "its the AF" thing. But CAP leadership needs some real statistics and tracking of many of its reasons that it doesn't seem to accept submittal from the field....I got better answers from the Army filling out 2028-2 for changes to the UH1 T53 engine manual

[Shuman 14]

NDOSM

Huh?

Do you mean a National Defense Service Medal (NDSM), or is a NDOSM something else?

Nuclear Deterrence Operations Service Medal

Roger that. Thanks for the clarification.

[Shuman 14]

I am in agreement with LTC Clune in his responses. I didn't join CAP for the bling  or the uniform. As former E6 in the RM, this organizations NUC needs a complete overhaul, if not, some better oversight. Not sure if i buy all the "its the AF" thing. But CAP leadership needs some real statistics and tracking of many of its reasons that it doesn't seem to accept submittal from the field....I got better answers from the Army filling out 2028-2 for changes to the UH1 T53 engine manual

Thanks Brother.

[etodd]

What percentage of CAP members as a whole, participate in this Uniform Forum on CAPTalk? Just based on the number of threads here, and you multiply it out by total membership percentages... if the NC accepted submissions from the field, they might get hundreds of emails daily. Several thousand a month. With each being a different viewpoint. Just not enough manpower to even begin to tabulate all that. Just here in CAPTalk the ideas are all over the place.

Now I'll shutup since you all know me as the polo uniform guy. Life is much simpler this way.

[Eclipse]

if the NC accepted submissions from the field, they might get hundreds of emails daily.

They did, and they did.

In fact two revs back 39-1 was put out for comment, as were most other regs at the time.

The results were about as you'd expect, including the receptiveness to both comments
and corrections.

[Ned]

And as I pointed out, Step Two above, allows for anyone in the Chain of Command to use their personal preferences (and personnel dislikes) to a reasonable recommendation, to make it go away.

It's a suggestion box connected to a shredder.

That's not how military Uniform Boards work, they allow for general input. CAP does not. That's a good old boy system that does the membership a disservice.

Sounds like I should have instead steered you toward CAPR 1-2, which talks about how regs get changed.

I agree that national-level committees, and the NUC in particular, tend to have a bunch of CAP colonels that may be decades or so away from Tuesday night meetings.

Goodness knows I have served, and continue to serve, on more than my fair share of committees and working groups.

And reasonable minds differ on both CAP uniforms, and the process on how possible changes should be considered.  I get that.

But as others have pointed out, based on my 50 years or so, allowing anyone with a good idea to go VFR-direct to the NUC would quickly bog down because we have a higher percentage of members than you might expect who have very strong opinions on what looks "better," "more professional," or is more respectful of our diverse membership.

I have a day job that has taught me to have a very thick skin and to listen carefully to passionate people.  So I don't feel attacked or threatened just because someone disagrees or has a new idea.

I do tend to sigh a bit when I see posts here about how CAP didn't try hard enough to convince our AF colleagues about some uniform point.  Or the posts that suggest that any differences in opinion could be settled if only we asked the CAP-USAF commander about it.

But I fully understand that it is difficult or impossible for us to have full transparency on our internal processes as relates to uniforms, and folks naturally wonder "hey, have you ever thought about asking the AF about X"?

So we will continue to discuss CAP uniforms passionately here on the interwebs.  I just wished we discussed our missions and accomplishments a bit more.

Peace.

[Eclipse]

I just wished we discussed our missions and accomplishments a bit more.

There need to be some in order to foster the discussion(s).

The primary reason there is so much discussion about the multi-form is that the regs and policies are a hot mess of unintended consequences, ineffective compromise, lack of suppliers, and lack of options (often even consideration of them) for common circumstances (i.e. cold and hot weather) made worse by being written like a military reg instead of document civilians (i.e. moms)can understand, not to mention.

The lack of mentoring and enforcement of the regs, and allowances for all sorts of "local color", both official and
unofficial, result in people seeking out an answer somewhere, and there aren't too many other "somewheres" (snark and arguments not withstanding.

Long ago I learned that as soon more than one person in any group asks the same question, the fix is to address the
answer in short, clear sentences and then move on.

I also learned that "actions speak louder then intent", and people do what they want to do.
The multiform and the supplier situation has been a consistent and increasing issue for 20 years.
There are simple fixes to everything.

NHQ has shown it is not interested in them.

[Shuman 14]

What percentage of CAP members as a whole, participate in this Uniform Forum on CAPTalk? Just based on the number of threads here, and you multiply it out by total membership percentages... if the NC accepted submissions from the field, they might get hundreds of emails daily. Several thousand a month. With each being a different viewpoint. Just not enough manpower to even begin to tabulate all that. Just here in CAPTalk the ideas are all over the place.

Now I'll shutup since you all know me as the polo uniform guy. Life is much simpler this way.

Clearly, you didn't read my post well, or maybe I didn't explain it well enough myself.

I would like the process to still follow 13.2.2. Step 2, BUT, it can't be stopped at any level, it has to go through all the levels before it reaches the NUC for a final yes or no.

Currently, I can submit a recommendation to the NUC and my Squadron CC can take it and tear it up. Same at any other level of Command.

In my proposed change, all a CC can do is "Concur" or "Non-Concur" and forward it up the chain so a recommendation can have a "Non-Concur" from the submitter's Squadron, Group, Wing, Region and National CC but the memorandum with all those "Non-Concur" attached, still gets to the NUC for a final yes or no and then it goes back down the chain to the submitter.

Now, if the memorandum is not in the correct and proper format, and a given CC sends it back to the submitter for correction before he/she will "Concur" or "Non-Concur", that's fine. Only properly formatted memorandums will be forwarded.

I'm not recommending a free-for-all, I'm recommending a reasonable change that ensures ideas from the membership get a fair chance to be seen by the NUC.

I agree that an open NUC email will get flooded with crazy ideas filled with improper grammar and spelling errors as well as unrelated spam on top of well thought out ideas.

There still needs to be a system in place, it just can't be a system where one person can say no and end it all.

[etodd]

There still needs to be a system in place, it just can't be a system where one person can say no and end it all.

Or, we can just be good little people at the bottom, do our jobs that we enjoy, and simply wear whatever those at the top tell us to wear. We should be 99% about the missions we do and 1% about bling. (I'm out)

[Fubar]

made worse by being written like a military reg instead of document civilians (i.e. moms)can understand

Oh man, is this true. Granted there is a lot of CP folks out there (mostly parents) who haven't looked at a regulation because they expect everything to be explained to them,  but for those that actually try to stick their nose in that book definitely get confused.

[Fubar]

I've seen this play before, so I apologize for spoiling the ending.

A passionate member is certain that if they could just get the chance to make their argument personally to the committee, then suddenly the skies would part, the sun would shine down, and all would be right in the world because they would get their way.

Until the committee says, "Thanks, but no."

Then it's the committee that needs to be abolished since they don't make decisions but recommendations anyway. It's time for the HMFIC to be the person calling the shots, so let's go VFR direct to the big cheese.

Who then says, "Uh, no."

Then really a volunteer shouldn't be making these decisions, it's time to go to big blue directly because by FSM, they obviously know how important this is.

They really don't say anything but shrug as they walk away chuckling.

Then it's time to go find someone at 1AF, then SECDEF, and so on.

[SarDragon]

There still needs to be a system in place, it just can't be a system where one person can say no and end it all.

Or, we can just be good little people at the bottom, do our jobs that we enjoy, and simply wear whatever those at the top tell us to wear. We should be 99% about the missions we do and 1% about bling. (I'm out)

As a member who has worn many varieties of  uniforms off and on since 1964, I think that's a very narrow POV. We, the members, are the "customers ", and should have an input into uniform decisions. There have been changes in the past based on member input.

I do agree that the current system is flawed, and needs an update.

Sent from my SM-A526U using Tapatalk

[Shuman 14]

Or, we can just be good little people at the bottom, do our jobs that we enjoy, and simply wear whatever those at the top tell us to wear. We should be 99% about the missions we do and 1% about bling. (I'm out)

Baaah, said the sheep.

The Farmer rolls his eyes and shuts the barn door. (he's out)

[Jester]

Or, we can just be good little people at the bottom, do our jobs that we enjoy, and simply wear whatever those at the top tell us to wear. We should be 99% about the missions we do and 1% about bling. (I'm out)

Baaah, said the sheep.

The Farmer rolls his eyes and shuts the barn door. (he's out)

Don't give it too much thought, at least half of the posts in the uniform forum are him asking why there's so many uniform posts in the uniform forum, usually with a humblebrag attached.

"It's the pancake breakfast, we do it every month." -- Champ Kind

[N6RVT]

I've seen this play before, so I apologize for spoiling the ending.

It has no ending.

Civil Air Patrol does not pay its members with Money.  It has two forms of currency:

1. Funded flying hours, only good for pilots with at least 100, preferably 200 hours you got flying somewhere else first, or

2. Egoboo

Look up the latter, its actually in the dictionary now. Uniforms are a big part of that.

I do not think National considers uniforms unimportant.  Rather I think they are known to be a critical element and there is probably a storm of infighting as to what the correct answer should be, and what exists is an effort to please everybody.

Efforts to please everybody typically results in a compromise that pleases nobody.  Which in turn results in Uniforms being a topic for heated discussion, which is what you see here.

------

As to magnetic ribbon racks, having recently resigned from CAP, I now know why CAP ribbons show up so often as part of Hollywood costumes.

As to why I just posted on captalk, I come back here to remind myself why leaving was such a good idea.

[SarDragon]

On that note - C flat - we conclude this performance.