Would You GO??

[wingnut]

Army Offering $20,000 Bonus For 'Quick' Recruits
Bonus Goes To Those Willing To Ship Out Within Month

So prior military "Interested"? should we draft? Did you know that CAP is considered a Mobilization asset by the DOD.

I would in a hot NY minute, but. . .

[Tubacap]

I would be interested to see the quote in some DoD reg for CAP mobilization.  We have talked about this several times on this board, but no one seems to be able to cite it.

[Stonewall]

I'm already in the Guard, just waiting for my number to be called for deployment.  This fall is looking like it may happen.

If I were out and a civilian again, I may do a 1 or 2 year enlistment, but being a new father, I'd have to say being away from my son takes priority over everything.  That's why my wife (also in the Guard) and I have said that we'll go willingly, but won't volunteer anytime soon.

Been deployed before, its kind of fun and I would gladly do it again, but like last time, they'll have to call me.

I used to have a high paying job, six figures my last year.  Had all the glory, travel, perks, gear, weapons, etc., but I learned a valuable lesson.  Money isn't everything.  And in the grand scheme of things, $20,000 ain't a whole bunch.

[ltcmark]

Did you know that CAP is considered a Mobilization asset by the DOD.

I have been in CAP 35 years, most all of it actively involved in Emergency Services.  I have heard things like this in the past.

I have gotten pretty good at finding DoD and Air Force regs on their web-sites.  I did and search and came up with this document.

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/usaf/afdd2-10.pdf

This is very interesting reading.

This is from page 20:

Air Force Auxiliary / Civil Air Patrol (AFAUX/CAP)
The AFAux/CAP is authorized, when directed by the Secretary of the Air Force,
to fulfill any non-combat mission of the Air Force. When CAP operates in AFAux status, it is an Air Force federal military activity and as such is required to comply with the Posse Comitatus Act and intelligence oversight restrictions. AFAux/CAP forces are presented through the Air Education and Training Command commander to AFNORTH (1 AF) or PACAF in response to requests for DSCA, consequence management operations, and other federal operations.

This is also in one of the information boxes:

AFAux/CAP assets, much like the ANG, can be classified into two
categories within the law and can only be in one status at a time. The first category is Title 10, where these Air Force Auxiliary forces are deemed an instrumentality of the United States when carrying out a non-combat mission assigned by the Secretary of the Air Force. The second category is where these same individuals and equipment are acting in the CAP Corporate category under title 36 as a federally sanctioned non-profit corporation.
—Information derived from Titles 10 and 36, U.S.C.

So, from all of this, I gather that they look at us as deployable.  Not to the extent that they say you will have to go, but to the extent of "here is a misson, go do it".

[ltcmark]

This link is interesting also:

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/302512p.pdf

The document is 13 years old, so I do not know if it is still current.  CAP is mentioned a number of times.

[LtCol White]

Got my desert BDU's all ready to go!!! Perhaps CAP can bring order to Baghdad!!!! We can track the insurgents with our urban DF teams.

[Stonewall]

We can track the insurgents with our urban DF teams.

You laugh, but the guy in this picture, a former C/Lt Col of mine is a platoon leader in Iraq right now and as he said in a letter to me, "we're using some equipment much like we used in CAP when I was a cadet, but here we're tracking people.....okay, I can't say much about it, but everyone wants to know how I learned to use this DF type equipment so well.".

[LtCol White]

We can track the insurgents with our urban DF teams.

You laugh, but the guy in this picture, a former C/Lt Col of mine is a platoon leader in Iraq right now and as he said in a letter to me, "we're using some equipment much like we used in CAP when I was a cadet, but here we're tracking people.....okay, I can't say much about it, but everyone wants to know how I learned to use this DF type equipment so well.".

ergo my point  We could start training troops how to do this.

[RogueLeader]

We can track the insurgents with our urban DF teams.

You laugh, but the guy in this picture, a former C/Lt Col of mine is a platoon leader in Iraq right now and as he said in a letter to me, "we're using some equipment much like we used in CAP when I was a cadet, but here we're tracking people.....okay, I can't say much about it, but everyone wants to know how I learned to use this DF type equipment so well.".

Sweet.

[flyguy06]

Did you know that CAP is considered a Mobilization asset by the DOD.

I have been in CAP 35 years, most all of it actively involved in Emergency Services.  I have heard things like this in the past.

I have gotten pretty good at finding DoD and Air Force regs on their web-sites.  I did and search and came up with this document.

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/usaf/afdd2-10.pdf

This is very interesting reading.

This is from page 20:

Air Force Auxiliary / Civil Air Patrol (AFAUX/CAP)
The AFAux/CAP is authorized, when directed by the Secretary of the Air Force,
to fulfill any non-combat mission of the Air Force. When CAP operates in AFAux status, it is an Air Force federal military activity and as such is required to comply with the Posse Comitatus Act and intelligence oversight restrictions. AFAux/CAP forces are presented through the Air Education and Training Command commander to AFNORTH (1 AF) or PACAF in response to requests for DSCA, consequence management operations, and other federal operations.

This is also in one of the information boxes:

AFAux/CAP assets, much like the ANG, can be classified into two
categories within the law and can only be in one status at a time. The first category is Title 10, where these Air Force Auxiliary forces are deemed an instrumentality of the United States when carrying out a non-combat mission assigned by the Secretary of the Air Force. The second category is where these same individuals and equipment are acting in the CAP Corporate category under title 36 as a federally sanctioned non-profit corporation.
—Information derived from Titles 10 and 36, U.S.C.

So, from all of this, I gather that they look at us as deployable.  Not to the extent that they say you will have to go, but to the extent of "here is a misson, go do it".

This is interesting. So wher would a guy like me, (current Army Guard guy) dit in? I cant be activated by the Air Force since I am curently an Army officer. Cant be in two services at the same time.

[ZigZag911]

If there were a mission I could perform to assist the country, I'd certainly go.

However, as far as CAP being "deployable", the US Code quoted above authorizes utilization of CAP resources & personnel in support of USAF's non-combat role.

Would this not preclude sending CAP personnel to a combat zone?

While USAF medical personnel & chaplains are non-combatants, they are in the war zone supporting the combat role of the Air Force, by looking after the needs of combat forces.

[Hawk200]

However, as far as CAP being "deployable", the US Code quoted above authorizes utilization of CAP resources & personnel in support of USAF's non-combat role.

Would this not preclude sending CAP personnel to a combat zone?

While USAF medical personnel & chaplains are non-combatants, they are in the war zone supporting the combat role of the Air Force, by looking after the needs of combat forces.

Being a non-combatant doesn't mean "no combat zone". It means the individual doesn't carry arms or actively engage in combat actions. Hearing a confession, or patching up a soldier on the battlefield are still combat roles, but not combatant roles.

You'd have to look up what the Air Force or DOD considers non-combat roles. But we wouldn't be permitted to deploy to a combat zone in any role.

[wingnut]

Interesting Point

Was CAP involved in combat in world war II?? YES

as for mobilization if you read the DOD files on mobilization CAP is considered to be a military militia, but on a higher scale. Interestingly after Katrina a medical unit of the Maryland State Militia was actually activated, sworn into the Guard and federalized by the US Government. Check the Maryland State Militia web site. I will dig up the mobilization docs, I find it interesting, I think CAP as a whole is plagued by an identity crisis, it seems that  many of the current members are unsure as to where we come from, who we are, and where are we going.

[ddelaney103]

Intresting Point

Was CAP involved in combat in world war II?? YES

as for mobilization if you read the DOD files on mobilization CAP is considered to be a military militia, but on a higher scale. Interestingly after Katrina a medical unit of the Maryland State Militia was actually activated, sworn into the Guard and federalized by the US Government. Check the Maryland State Militia web site.

I did, and you are incorrect.

The MDDF was sworn into service as part of the state militia and sent to LA (http://www.mddefenseforce.org/news/katrina01.php).  As a result of this they were awarded the Maryland State Active Duty Medal, which is not given for federalization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_National_Guard_State_Active_Duty_Medal).

[wingnut]

INCORRECT?

go to the Maryland defense force web site and explain how an entire unit of the defense force is airlifted to bosnia under orders from NATO using USAF assets working as a USAF or US Army field unit is a figment of my imagination???

When was the last CAP unit shipped overseas to work for NATO, are we even in the same catagory? are we really an asset? can we become more of a military unit, or should we continue to be like boy scouts??

[JohnKachenmeister]

CAP's combat service was in World War II.  Subsequent to the war, a new law re-established CAP as a permanent auxiliary of the new Air Force.  That's when the "Non combat missions and programs of the Air Force" clause was written in.

"Non-combat" as it is expressed in the establishing legislation, is NOT  "Non combatant" as is expressed in the Geneva Convention.  CAP is a force multiplier, and therefore, under the Geneva Accords, a combat force.  The only "Noncombatant" status recognized under the Geneva Accords is chaplains and medical personnel. 

It is interesting that the establishing legislation does NOT include restrictions on geographic deployment of CAP personnel, only a stipulation that CAP be involved in "Noncombat" missions and programs only.

So, based on that, CAP could:

1.  Deploy chaplains into the War Zones.

2.  Deploy medical personnel into the War Zones.

3.  Deploy trainers overseas to train Iraqi/Afghan troops, but not into the combat zone.

4.  Deploy training, medical, chaplains, or and administrative personnel to overseas areas other than war zones to perform any AF mission.

Anybody feel like setting up the Iraqi Civil Air Patrol with a fleet of light fixed-wing aircraft to patrol the Iranian border and provide recon and SAR to the new government?  I'm serious... we could also start a Cadet Corps that would provide a continuous stream of disciplined young men and women into the Iraqi forces and counter the garbage they are fed in their schools.

I'd do it, but CAPR 900-3 would have to either be modified or ignored!

[LtCol White]

CAP's combat service was in World War II.  Subsequent to the war, a new law re-established CAP as a permanent auxiliary of the new Air Force.  That's when the "Non combat missions and programs of the Air Force" clause was written in.

"Non-combat" as it is expressed in the establishing legislation, is NOT  "Non combatant" as is expressed in the Geneva Convention.  CAP is a force multiplier, and therefore, under the Geneva Accords, a combat force.  The only "Noncombatant" status recognized under the Geneva Accords is chaplains and medical personnel. 

It is interesting that the establishing legislation does NOT include restrictions on geographic deployment of CAP personnel, only a stipulation that CAP be involved in "Noncombat" missions and programs only.

So, based on that, CAP could:

1.  Deploy chaplains into the War Zones.

2.  Deploy medical personnel into the War Zones.

3.  Deploy trainers overseas to train Iraqi/Afghan troops, but not into the combat zone.

4.  Deploy training, medical, chaplains, or and administrative personnel to overseas areas other than war zones to perform any AF mission.

Anybody feel like setting up the Iraqi Civil Air Patrol with a fleet of light fixed-wing aircraft to patrol the Iranian border and provide recon and SAR to the new government?  I'm serious... we could also start a Cadet Corps that would provide a continuous stream of disciplined young men and women into the Iraqi forces and counter the garbage they are fed in their schools.

I'd do it, but CAPR 900-3 would have to either be modified or ignored!

Well, we do have nametapes that say US CIVIL AIR PATROL now. Perhaps this is one of those "Exciting new missions" TP was talking about.

[Chaplaindon]

CAP's combat service was in World War II.  Subsequent to the war, a new law re-established CAP as a permanent auxiliary of the new Air Force.  That's when the "Non combat missions and programs of the Air Force" clause was written in.

"Non-combat" as it is expressed in the establishing legislation, is NOT  "Non combatant" as is expressed in the Geneva Convention.  CAP is a force multiplier, and therefore, under the Geneva Accords, a combat force.  The only "Noncombatant" status recognized under the Geneva Accords is chaplains and medical personnel. 

It is interesting that the establishing legislation does NOT include restrictions on geographic deployment of CAP personnel, only a stipulation that CAP be involved in "Noncombat" missions and programs only.

So, based on that, CAP could:

1.  Deploy chaplains into the War Zones.

2.  Deploy medical personnel into the War Zones.

3.  Deploy trainers overseas to train Iraqi/Afghan troops, but not into the combat zone.

4.  Deploy training, medical, chaplains, or and administrative personnel to overseas areas other than war zones to perform any AF mission.

Anybody feel like setting up the Iraqi Civil Air Patrol with a fleet of light fixed-wing aircraft to patrol the Iranian border and provide recon and SAR to the new government?  I'm serious... we could also start a Cadet Corps that would provide a continuous stream of disciplined young men and women into the Iraqi forces and counter the garbage they are fed in their schools.

I'd do it, but CAPR 900-3 would have to either be modified or ignored!

There may be a disconnect (of sorts) between the USAF Regs and CAPRs regarding "restrictions on geographic deployment of CAP personnel," at least where chaplains are concerned.

CAPR 265-1 (E), §A, 2b, (p. 1): "The Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of Civil Air Patrol chaplains in support of the Air Force active duty and reserve component forces to the extent and under the conditions that the Secretary deems appropriate."

The same paragraph adds, "In anticipation of this requirement the CAP Chaplain Service will ... provide appropriate training to prepare [CAP chaplains] for domestic, non-combat ministries."

I wonder if there is codicil (somewhere) in the USAF Regs prohibiting foreign deployment of CAP personnel or if NHQ just created that line in 265-1 out of thin air.

Nevertheless, IMHO, even if CAP personnel do not go overseas, our use at stateside bases could release active, AFRES and ANG personnel to deploy and hence be a force multiplier. I know that chaplains are already serving in unpaid capacities augmenting at USAF chapels throughout the country.

That having been said, if called, I'd go ... whether stateside or "down-range."

[James Shaw]

The question as to if the CAP was considered Combat or Non-Combat during the early days of WWII is something that the historians and others have wrestled with many times. We were founded as a support auxiliary not as an active agressor. We did not have any formal approval for active activities against anyone other than the patrol and watching for U-Boats. The coastal patrol initially did not have any weapons other than some personal sidearms. It was only after a couple of missed opportunities that they were approved for limited munitions.

The argument has been made that we did not have defined targets that we looked for. We simply responded with some bombs. Therefore we did not qualify under some terms of Combat.

The other argument is that we did carry munitions authorized by the OCD which put us in a Combat Ready position.

One could take either side .....

[jimmydeanno]

I think it is funny that people say "oh yeah, I'd go in a minute."  There are a lot of people who say they'd do something because they'll never actually get called out on it.

It is easy for someone that is medically disqualified from service to say, "I'd join in a heartbeat...if I could." because there isn't anyway they actually could and actually have to serve.

I honestly can not tell you what my answer to this question would be, because I have never and will never be put in a situation where I would actually have to make that choice.

I am very grateful for those who have actually made the choice to serve, my wife is one of them.  The stress and worry put on those who do serve about leaving their families and the possibility of not returning is difficult to manage for many service members. 

I just think that unless you are in a position where you actually have to make that choice, you can't make one because you won't have the actual factors involved in making it.