A hypothetical: suppose a Jewish cadet earned but refused to wear the Lindberrg?

[raivo]

"Supposing a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
"Supposing it didn't," said Pooh after careful thought.

[Eclipse]

+1, probably a couple more - this is the best response.

People are so afraid these days to make decisions, and Commanders to command, that every hypothetical,
never happened / never will, .000001% case has to be raised to the level of a "dialogue", which forces a discussion
of something that never happened / never will, and then further requires a policy be drafted for
something that has never happened and never will.

All wasted time, because...

1 - The "thing" never happened and never will.

2 - If it ever does, it'll be as rare as a Honduran Rain of Fish, and only affect those involved,
even if, like a Honduran Rain of Fish, a bunch of non-involved people think it's "important".

3 - The observer phenomenon becomes an issue in that constant raising of the hypothetical
increases the statistical probability that someone decides it's actually a "good idea".

4 - 1 - The "thing" never happened and never will.

[RNOfficer]

I wasn't aware anyone was 'required' to wear any of the awards.

11.1.1.1. Ribbons and devices are mandatory with the USAF-style Service Dress (Class A)
and USAF-style Semiformal uniforms, and optional with the USAF-style Blue Service Uniform (Class B)
and Corporate-style Aviator Shirt Uniforms


11.1.1.1.2. Cadets. Cadets may choose to reduce the height of their ribbon bar by
removing all cadet achievement ribbons but their highest Cadet Program achievement ribbon. All other
earned CAP ribbons and devices must still be worn

Emphasis mine. The only cadet required to wear the ribbon, per the regulation, are those for whom the Lindbergh is their highest award.

This question applies only to cadets in the grade of C/MSgt. Thus far, I have nothing more productive to add...

Thanks for concise and reasonable solution of this potential issue.

[RNOfficer]

What next?

"What if a Jewish cadet refuses to ride in the squadron van because its a Ford and Henry Ford was a well-known anti-semite?"

Is there a faceplam icon?

Whatever.

I'm afraid you've missed the point. There were lots of anti-Semites in American history including Henry Ford and General "Billy" Mitchell. Lindbergh deserves a special place however because of his accusation that Jews were traitors.

[RNOfficer]

This scenario was missing what position we are hypothetically in when we discover this. But if any cadet showed that great an interest in history to dig that deep into one of the names on an achievement, I'd make sure they pair up with the squadron historian!

I understand you are making a humorous comment but Lindbergh accusation that Jews were traitors to America is common knowledge among Jews young and old.

You might be interested in the alternative history novel, "The Plot Against America" by Phillip Roth. It won James Fenimore Cooper Prize for Best Historical Fiction given by the Society of American Historians.

[Holding Pattern]

What next?

"What if a Jewish cadet refuses to ride in the squadron van because its a Ford and Henry Ford was a well-known anti-semite?"

Is there a faceplam icon?

Whatever.

I'm afraid you've missed the point. There were lots of anti-Semites in American history including Henry Ford and General "Billy" Mitchell. Lindbergh deserves a special place however because of his accusation that Jews were traitors.

There seems to be this recent propensity for letting the evil that men do live after them, and burying whatever good they did with their bones.

Regardless of everything else Lindbergh did or said, The achievement he is recognized for is the first solo transatlantic flight, bringing credibility to the safety of flight at a critical time in history.

Deciding to repudiate all that he did before the event in question (14 years later, mind you) is IMO an over-reaction.

You can coach this as a learning opportunity in several ways.

Firstly that people are flawed and can accomplish great things while being imperfect personages later in life. Or perhaps a lesson in how people use fame down the road in their life for good or evil.

Or perhaps it could be a discussion of what they might be called on to do if they were to go into the military, where they may have to do something that they personally disagree with but that they swore an oath requiring them to do so anyways.

Perhaps the cadet realizes that if the para-military life is too much restriction on his freedoms, the military life might not be for him. Or he might take the lesson to heart, wear the ribbon to represent HIS achievement and to recognize the original achievement of the person in question.

Perhaps he may decide that he is the more tolerant man, wearing the ribbon honoring someone, despite that someone having done something less tolerant later in life.

I suspect a character development officer can come up with a few other thoughts that I have not come up with on that front.

[Holding Pattern]

This scenario was missing what position we are hypothetically in when we discover this. But if any cadet showed that great an interest in history to dig that deep into one of the names on an achievement, I'd make sure they pair up with the squadron historian!

I understand you are making a humorous comment but Lindbergh accusation that Jews were traitors to America is common knowledge among Jews young and old.

You might be interested in the alternative history novel, "The Plot Against America" by Phillip Roth. It won James Fenimore Cooper Prize for Best Historical Fiction given by the Society of American Historians.

I was quite serious in my comment. Perhaps it is because I've sat through some promotion boards where cadets couldn't give me a single fact about the person whose name has been honored with an achievement, or perhaps it is because I think inquisitiveness should be directed toward positive goals; either way, historian sure seems like a good place to dig in to the finer details of the honored personages of flight.

[RNOfficer]

4 - 1 - The "thing" never happened and never will.

Apparently you have not paid much attention to current events.

http://fortune.com/2016/03/15/harvard-law-crest-slaveholder/

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2015/11/woodrow_wilsons_racism_at_center_of_princeton_u_st.html

http://www.app.com/story/news/education/college-news/2016/04/29/removing-racist-legacy/82930028/

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2016/4/29/yale-keeps-calhoun-name/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/georgetown-university-to-rename-two-buildings-that-reflect-schools-ties-to-slavery/2015/11/15/e36edd32-8bb7-11e5-acff-673ae92ddd2b_story.html

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/482f3e06118c4398ac601022a5335538/colleges-update-mascots-mottos-amid-pressure-students

http://time.com/4017022/jefferson-davis-statue-removed/

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/article22503351.html

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/11/23/thomas-jefferson-next-target-students-who-question-honors-figures-who-were-racists

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/24588/

[RNOfficer]

This scenario was missing what position we are hypothetically in when we discover this. But if any cadet showed that great an interest in history to dig that deep into one of the names on an achievement, I'd make sure they pair up with the squadron historian!

I understand you are making a humorous comment but Lindbergh accusation that Jews were traitors to America is common knowledge among Jews young and old.

You might be interested in the alternative history novel, "The Plot Against America" by Phillip Roth. It won James Fenimore Cooper Prize for Best Historical Fiction given by the Society of American Historians.

I was quite serious in my comment. Perhaps it is because I've sat through some promotion boards where cadets couldn't give me a single fact about the person whose name has been honored with an achievement, or perhaps it is because I think inquisitiveness should be directed toward positive goals; either way, historian sure seems like a good place to dig in to the finer details of the honored personages of flight.

I apologize that I misinterpreted your comment. I believe that you will find that Jewish cadets are well-acquainted with both Lindbergh's achievements and his accusation that Jews were traitors to America.

As for directing inquisitiveness toward positive goals, certainly this is worthwhile. At the same time it is equally historically important not to gloss over gross injustices.. Lindbergh's statements on Jews were important because he was "an honored personage of flight".

[Eclipse]

4 - 1 - The "thing" never happened and never will.

Apparently you didn't read my post, this has nothing to do, whatsoever with any current events,
nor my comment, nor the idea of bringing up these constant "never happened never will" hypotheticals.

Maybe in your professional medical life these things are a factor.  CAP members and leaders are volunteers
who have no requirement whatsoever to deal with this level of drama if it is pushed beyond the reasonable tolerance of
the average person's sensibilities.

The good ones will do their best to be sensitive to the person affected and uphold the core values, the rest don't need to
be kept up at night thinking about something that has never happened and never will.

[Spam]

4 - 1 - The "thing" never happened and never will.

Apparently you have not paid much attention to current events.

RNOfficer,

[Removed]

Without the agitators pushing those fools into it, few of these instances you cite would have turned into such a divisive, hateful, nonproductive diversion. Without you to stir the pot and fuel the flames of discontent here, NO, the odds are highly against some young impressionable cadet deciding to Make A Statement... but that's part of your point, isn't it? You want to bring it on, so you bring it up. You want to change and tear up the program to remove the impure, don't you?

So, if only the ideologically pure should be allowed to remain after the Purge that you are bringing on, what's next on your agenda:  defame and destroy Von Braun, a registered Nazi? Go after Spaatz because as PACAF commander he carried out orders to drop the nukes on Japan - a 'racist' act, according to some of the revisionist historians?

[Removed]

Removed personal attacks - Pace

[Chappie]

I would still wear the leadership ribbon because it has more to do with my accomplishments, not the person it is named after.

I was trying to figure out the proper way of wording this. Thank you for doing so.

^^^^ Spot on.   Trying to wrap my head around this hypothetical.  The closest I could come up with is "Suppose a Chaplain earned but refused to wear the Wilson award because he was <gasp> a Presbyterian minister <end of grasp> and they were of a different denomination or faith group".  To borrow a word from "The Princess Bride"... "Inconceivable!" (Vizzini).   With all the effort it takes to attain that award, it is worn with pride exactly for the accomplishments of the person it is bestowed upon (as well as it is an award bestowed by an organization I am proud to be a member of).

[Pace]

I've seen enough. Throwing on the water before the flame spreads.
*locked*