What to do: NCO or Officer, need some insight

Started by grunt82abn, May 13, 2016, 10:37:02 PM

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Jester

I believe there's the same 6 month waiting period as well. At least that's the way I read it and am about halfway through the wait.

Eclipse

#201
Some relevent passages from 35-5. http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_005_489E25C089E93.pdf

This appears to be the current operational policy, in violation of 35-5:

"h. NCO Grades. The squadron commander is the promoting authority for members
assigned to his or her unit for the grades of staff sergeant and technical sergeant. The wing
commander is the promoting authority for promotions to the grade of master sergeant and the
region commander is the promoting authority for the grade of senior master sergeant. The
National Commander is the promoting authority for the grade of Chief Master Sergeant. "


"b. Noncommissioned Officer. Board Chairmen will be the appropriate commander
(Squadron, Wing, Region or National Commander) for the level of promotion. Board members
will be senior in grade to the candidates and will be appointed by the presiding commander.
Boards may be held in person or be conducted telephonically and will consist of no less than the
Chairman and five Board members"


Love that one - Officers only require 3 board members, but NCOs require 6? 

As mentioned - L1 + 6 months

"b. The member must also have completed Level I of the Professional Development
Program and served 6 months in CAP."

"c. Members who meet the eligibility requirement outlined above may assume a CAP
NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit
commander (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card or promotion order showing
the grade requested is considered sufficient). The CAPF 2 will be annotated to reflect the NCO
grade authorized and forward this form to National Headquarters for recording. Forms may be
submitted by e-mail, fax or U.S. Postal Service as outlined in paragraph 1-8c(1) above. The
member is authorized to wear the grade (CAP distinctive chevrons only) on the CAP uniform as
soon as the NCO grade is reflected in eServices."


Note the language "assume" - there's no "approval" necessary, and "double-secret" revisions that block this
leave the person refusing open to a sustainable complaint.  NHQ is simply "recording" the annotation,
there is no allowance for any consideration or approval.  A member simply presents his documentation
to the Unit CC and LeMay's your uncle. within this context I don't even see an allowance for the
Unit CC to refuse the "annotation".

Note also the difference in the language between officers and NCOs:

"3-4. Regular and Reserve Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular, Reserve and National
Guard Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active, retired or
resigned, may be advanced to a CAP grade equivalent to their grade in the Armed Forces (but
not to exceed lieutenant colonel), in recognition of their military knowledge and experience.
Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting
authority outlined in paragraph 1-5. Additionally, individuals who obtained the grade of warrant
officer may be promoted to the CAP grade shown in figure 3 below. The unit commander will
initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper
documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card or
promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient)."


Officers do not "assume" they are "advanced", and this contains verbiage regarding
these advancements being "neither automatic, nor mandatory", however the NCO "assumptions"
contain no such provision.  In fact, officer equivalency promotions have to go through the full
chain respective to the grade requested.

Why the disparity?  An Air Force Major has to go through Wing for his equivalency, but a Master Sargent can
just walk in and tell his superior "I'll be wearing these, send this up...Sir..."

Goose and gander should be the same for all.


"That Others May Zoom"

JeffDG

Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2016, 11:32:02 PM
"b. Noncommissioned Officer. Board Chairmen will be the appropriate commander
(Squadron, Wing, Region or National Commander) for the level of promotion. Board members
will be senior in grade to the candidates and will be appointed by the presiding commander.
Boards may be held in person or be conducted telephonically and will consist of no less than the
Chairman and five Board members"


Love that one - Officers only require 3 board members, but NCOs require 6? 

I've always also thought it redundant to have a commander on a board.  The board makes a recommendation to the commander, as such, the Commander chairing the board means that the Commander is making a recommendation to him/her self.

Eclipse

Quote from: JeffDG on July 01, 2016, 12:19:16 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2016, 11:32:02 PM
"b. Noncommissioned Officer. Board Chairmen will be the appropriate commander
(Squadron, Wing, Region or National Commander) for the level of promotion. Board members
will be senior in grade to the candidates and will be appointed by the presiding commander.
Boards may be held in person or be conducted telephonically and will consist of no less than the
Chairman and five Board members"


Love that one - Officers only require 3 board members, but NCOs require 6? 

I've always also thought it redundant to have a commander on a board.  The board makes a recommendation to the commander, as such, the Commander chairing the board means that the Commander is making a recommendation to him/her self.

There's a term for that, some say it robs you of your eyesight.

"That Others May Zoom"

kwe1009

Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2016, 11:32:02 PM
Some relevent passages from 35-5. http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_005_489E25C089E93.pdf

This appears to be the current operational policy, in violation of 35-5:

"h. NCO Grades. The squadron commander is the promoting authority for members
assigned to his or her unit for the grades of staff sergeant and technical sergeant. The wing
commander is the promoting authority for promotions to the grade of master sergeant and the
region commander is the promoting authority for the grade of senior master sergeant. The
National Commander is the promoting authority for the grade of Chief Master Sergeant. "


"b. Noncommissioned Officer. Board Chairmen will be the appropriate commander
(Squadron, Wing, Region or National Commander) for the level of promotion. Board members
will be senior in grade to the candidates and will be appointed by the presiding commander.
Boards may be held in person or be conducted telephonically and will consist of no less than the
Chairman and five Board members"


Love that one - Officers only require 3 board members, but NCOs require 6? 

As mentioned - L1 + 6 months

"b. The member must also have completed Level I of the Professional Development
Program and served 6 months in CAP."

"c. Members who meet the eligibility requirement outlined above may assume a CAP
NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit
commander (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card or promotion order showing
the grade requested is considered sufficient). The CAPF 2 will be annotated to reflect the NCO
grade authorized and forward this form to National Headquarters for recording. Forms may be
submitted by e-mail, fax or U.S. Postal Service as outlined in paragraph 1-8c(1) above. The
member is authorized to wear the grade (CAP distinctive chevrons only) on the CAP uniform as
soon as the NCO grade is reflected in eServices."


Note the language "assume" - there's no "approval" necessary, and "double-secret" revisions that block this
leave the person refusing open to a sustainable complaint.  NHQ is simply "recording" the annotation,
there is no allowance for any consideration or approval.  A member simply presents his documentation
to the Unit CC and LeMay's your uncle. within this context I don't even see an allowance for the
Unit CC to refuse the "annotation".

Note also the difference in the language between officers and NCOs:

"3-4. Regular and Reserve Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular, Reserve and National
Guard Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active, retired or
resigned, may be advanced to a CAP grade equivalent to their grade in the Armed Forces (but
not to exceed lieutenant colonel), in recognition of their military knowledge and experience.
Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting
authority outlined in paragraph 1-5. Additionally, individuals who obtained the grade of warrant
officer may be promoted to the CAP grade shown in figure 3 below. The unit commander will
initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper
documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card or
promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient)."


Officers do not "assume" they are "advanced", and this contains verbiage regarding
these advancements being "neither automatic, nor mandatory", however the NCO "assumptions"
contain no such provision.  In fact, officer equivalency promotions have to go through the full
chain respective to the grade requested.

Why the disparity?  An Air Force Major has to go through Wing for his equivalency, but a Master Sargent can
just walk in and tell his superior "I'll be wearing these, send this up...Sir..."

Goose and gander should be the same for all.

There is a great deal of disparity between initial promotions for NCOs and officers.  I just went though this a couple of months ago with a retired MSgt who almost quite CAP over the whole ordeal.  He found it "offensive" (his words) that an NCO had to wait 6 months before being allowed to be promoted while an officer could just walk in off the street and get their CAP equivalent rank.  He was also "offended" over the different sizes of the promotion boards.  This promotion had to go through the food chain (Squadron, Group, Wing, Region) and then be reviewed by the National Command Chief who then made a recommendation to the National CC.  This process took well over a month after it left Region.

In contrast, an O-5 only needs Region approval and that process can take less than 2 weeks. 

So I guess the real question is, "Why is it harder to come in as an NCO than it is an officer?"

This really doesn't make much sense if you are trying to build the program.

sarmed1

My guess it is harder because as has been alluded to here, and in other related threads:  This is the newest plan for NCO's.  The officer plan is still operating under the "old" plan.  Sometime in the future the officer plan will be updated accordingly.

just my guess
MK
Capt.  Mark "K12" Kleibscheidel

dwr2829

Thanks all for the insight. Another question...how many Chiefs (Senior members) are there in CAP? Will national try to keep the numbers low to run parallel to the one percent that the Air Force mandates?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Jester


DoubleSecret

Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2016, 10:40:04 PM

Per the regs, your CC or Personnel Officer would send the DD214 w/ the Form 2 direct to NHQ, however word here is that
they are now requiring the promotions be approved at all levels they normally would respective to the grade requested.

That's what happened when I processed one IAW CAPR 35-5.  Kicked back by NHQ because it didn't follow the double secret policy.  When NHQ doesn't feel any particular need to follow its own written regulations, the whole program is called into question.

kwe1009

Quote from: dwr2829 on July 01, 2016, 10:10:33 AM
Thanks all for the insight. Another question...how many Chiefs (Senior members) are there in CAP? Will national try to keep the numbers low to run parallel to the one percent that the Air Force mandates?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It will be low based on the fact SNCO promotions are based on duty position (CAPR 35-5 Figure 8 )  unless a lot of retired Chiefs join CAP and go the NCO route (highly unlikely in my opinion).  Only 1 promotion to fill the Wing/Region SNCO Adviser so each Wing or Region can only promote a single person to CMSgt and that is to fill the role of SNCO Adviser.  In the same regard, only one person can be promoted to SMSgt to fill a Group/Wing/Region NCO Adviser position and only one person can be promoted to MSgt to fill a Squadron/Flight NCO position. 
There are also minimum term limits in order to retain that grade so you just can't cycle people through those positions to get promoted.  Thank breaks down to only one person getting promoted to Chief every 4 years in each Wing or Region, one person getting SMSgt every 3 years per Group/Wing/Region and one person getting MSgt every 2 years per Squadron/Flight.

This is actually a great idea and hopefully will filter over to the officer side very soon.  That will eventually cut down on the number of high-rank/no responsibility officers.

RiverAux

Quote from: kwe1009 on July 01, 2016, 12:34:31 AM
I just went though this a couple of months ago with a retired MSgt who almost quite CAP over the whole ordeal.  He found it "offensive" (his words) that an NCO had to wait 6 months before being allowed to be promoted while an officer could just walk in off the street and get their CAP equivalent rank.  He was also "offended" over the different sizes of the promotion boards.  This promotion had to go through the food chain (Squadron, Group, Wing, Region) and then be reviewed by the National Command Chief who then made a recommendation to the National CC.  This process took well over a month after it left Region.

My prediction is that this person will not renew his CAP membership after the first year. 

THRAWN

Quote from: RiverAux on July 01, 2016, 02:03:48 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on July 01, 2016, 12:34:31 AM
I just went though this a couple of months ago with a retired MSgt who almost quite CAP over the whole ordeal.  He found it "offensive" (his words) that an NCO had to wait 6 months before being allowed to be promoted while an officer could just walk in off the street and get their CAP equivalent rank.  He was also "offended" over the different sizes of the promotion boards.  This promotion had to go through the food chain (Squadron, Group, Wing, Region) and then be reviewed by the National Command Chief who then made a recommendation to the National CC.  This process took well over a month after it left Region.

My prediction is that this person will not renew his CAP membership after the first year.

And that's if he continues to participate at all.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

kwe1009

Quote from: RiverAux on July 01, 2016, 02:03:48 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on July 01, 2016, 12:34:31 AM
I just went though this a couple of months ago with a retired MSgt who almost quite CAP over the whole ordeal.  He found it "offensive" (his words) that an NCO had to wait 6 months before being allowed to be promoted while an officer could just walk in off the street and get their CAP equivalent rank.  He was also "offended" over the different sizes of the promotion boards.  This promotion had to go through the food chain (Squadron, Group, Wing, Region) and then be reviewed by the National Command Chief who then made a recommendation to the National CC.  This process took well over a month after it left Region.

My prediction is that this person will not renew his CAP membership after the first year.

I'm afraid that you might be correct.