What to do: NCO or Officer, need some insight

[NCRblues]

The idea that the option of a patch vs an epaulet is a means to increase recruiting is sad.

Very sad, indeed, however recruiting is never really a major issue in CAP. The increased retention of good, well trained and motivated members is, and until it is addressed, we will continue to discuss this and "multiforms" on CT forever!

I wish I could get on a "retention committee" for NHQ. It's not rocket science by any means.

Some general ideas from the warped depths of my no caffeine mind this morning.

1. Start utilizing the amazing awards system that we have. Stop being so stingy with some of the awards, what does it hurt to give an achievement? Nothing, it increases a volunteers pride and dedication, heck the member even has to buy the ribbon if they want to wear it! Recognize your members for the hard work, don't wait for the local encampment commander to put them in for an award, do it at the local level!

2. Have actual conversations with members, tell them what they can improve on and give them goals! Don't allow "that guy" to stay "that guy". Don't lie to volunteers. We get it, not everyone can be the big boss, but share a little of the pie and make someone feel invested.

3. Actually train our members! All of us have seen that new member who shows up at activity XYZ and has no idea what they are doing at all. Take a few minutes out of your busy unit meetings for just the FNG's, also it will make them feel wanted!

4. Stop making people retake the classes they have already done (cough new TLC requirements cough). Make our training more than death by power point. What member wants to spend the weekend at (SLS/CLC/TLC) if they know that the local area just reads the power point and moves on. No one retains that information presented in that way. Hands on learning. Want advanced TLC credit? Staff an encampment, write an AAR and actually work the CP, Teenagers are (shockingly) not explained on PowerPoint slides.

5. Streamline all our regulations, and put EVERYTHING online. eServices should be a one stop shop for any member of any grade and TIS.

6. Leave your personal politics at the door. Don't like member smith, to bad, he is a volunteer as well. Get over it.

So forth and so on.

(This rant brought to you by lack of caffeine and viewers like you)

[Eclipse]

1. Start utilizing the amazing awards system that we have.

Agreed, but this is a slippery slope, and the flipside is C/A1C's wearing 4 Unit citations.

2. Have actual conversations with members, tell them what they can improve on and give them goals! Don't allow "that guy" to stay "that guy". Don't lie to volunteers. We get it, not everyone can be the big boss, but share a little of the pie and make someone feel invested.

These should be required annually and with every promotion:  http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/F040_C73A311F4FC74.pdf

This despite the fact that back in 2008 I said they were a bad idea: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=6829.0
Now that I am back in a position of command and have to adjust attitudes, I see them as a useful tool.  With that said, I'm
not looking forward to it.

3. Actually train our members! All of us have seen that new member who shows up at activity XYZ and has no idea what they are doing at all. Take a few minutes out of your busy unit meetings for just the FNG's, also it will make them feel wanted!

Agreed - despite the fact that assigning a mentor has been required since at least 2011, it's clear this isn't happening,
and the Operational Excellence Command track is a complete non-starter in many wings.

4. Stop making people retake the classes they have already done (cough new TLC requirements cough). Make our training more than death by power point. What member wants to spend the weekend at (SLS/CLC/TLC) if they know that the local area just reads the power point and moves on. No one retains that information presented in that way. Hands on learning. Want advanced TLC credit? Staff an encampment, write an AAR and actually work the CP, Teenagers are (shockingly) not explained on PowerPoint slides.

Agreed, to an extent, the problem being that many of NHQ's "first tries" are flawed at best, there's also an extreme inconsistency in
presentation, which results in some sessions being the equivelent of a revival meeting, and others (far too many) optically induced Xanex.

5. Streamline all our regulations, and put EVERYTHING online. eServices should be a one stop shop for any member of any grade and TIS.

So simple, so important, so ignored.

6. Leave your personal politics at the door. Don't like member smith, to bad, he is a volunteer as well. Get over it.

Agreed, but good luck with that.  Politics & religion have no place in CAP, but there you go, and for many politics is religion,
so. Some of the conversations I've had with "leaders"are...well...

[Flying Pig]

Missions Missions Missions.  If you build them, they will come.

People will be enticed into CAP with the allure of NCO stripes or Captain bars, or the idea that they miss the military, and this NCO thing could give them what they are looking for,  but stripes and bars don't keep anyone.  It never has.  People stay for the missions.  Sure we reward people with ranks and ribbons, but in the end they stay for the missions.  Whichever mission of CAP it is that they are interested in.

[THRAWN]

Missions Missions Missions.  If you build them, they will come.

People will be enticed into CAP with the allure of NCO stripes or Captain bars, or the idea that they miss the military, and this NCO thing could give them what they are looking for,  but stripes and bars don't keep anyone.  It never has.  People stay for the missions.  Sure we reward people with ranks and ribbons, but in the end they stay for the missions.  Whichever mission of CAP it is that they are interested in.

Behave yourself. Using logic like that will get you branded as an insurrectionist.

[etodd]

All these discussions are interesting reading ... seeing the variety of folks we have in CAP.

We have this thread where many folks are wanting CAP to be even more military like and structured than it currently is.

And we have other threads where some wouldn't mind a shift toward Homeland Security and FEMA ... emphasizing the civilian side more.

Maybe this separation of NCO/Officer/Enlisted/Etc. ... is Hdq seeing this and trying to work all angles? Can that be done without creating division in the ranks?

Going to be fascinating watching all this play out over the next 10-20 years and see where we wind up.

[Nikos]

One thing I am still unclear about, and can't seem to find the answer.  Perhaps I missed it?  Can a non-prior service person go into the CAP as an NCO?

[Eclipse]

Can a non-prior service person go into the CAP as an NCO?

No.

[AirAux]

As Archie Bunker would say, "See, right there, you got your basic discrimination."  So you can join and become and officer, but not an NCO.  Hmmmmmm??  As for the other retention stuff, modernization has hurt us somewhat.  Back in the day, we would get 2, 3, 4 new guys and have a 4 hour class on a Saturday and watch and discuss the filmstrip introducing CAP.  We would share donuts and coffee, and some tales and by the end of the class, everyone would know each other and have a good idea as to what CAP was and where they could fit in if they wanted.  Another thing, here comes the dead horse galloping in, if we are a team, we need a team UNIFORM.  I don't care what it is, but everyone should have the ability to wear the same thing everyone else is wearing.  Flame suit on, and as usual, JMHO...

[Holding Pattern]

Flame suit on,

I see you got your NFPA compliant ABUs!

[Eclipse]

As Archie Bunker would say, "See, right there, you got your basic discrimination."  So you can join and become and officer, but not an NCO. 

The above term does not apply, since there are no opportunities denied new members on that basis.  In fact it's literally the opposite of discrimination
to keep new members out of the NCO stream, since placing them there precludes some CAP opportunities such as command.

Hmmmmmm??  As for the other retention stuff, modernization has hurt us somewhat.  Back in the day, we would get 2, 3, 4 new guys and have a 4 hour class on a Saturday and watch and discuss the filmstrip introducing CAP.  We would share donuts and coffee, and some tales and by the end of the class, everyone would know each other and have a good idea as to what CAP was and where they could fit in if they wanted. 

Potential members are supposed to be attending several meetings, and then be considered by a membership board before submitting an application.  If they
don't know where they fit after that (plus any recruiting that was done as well), they certainly won't "get it" over a Boston creme.  Why would a unit CC
accept the membership of someone who doesn't know where they will "fit"?  By the time they are in LSCode A, they should be well past wall-hugging and
intros and looking towards gettign some work done.

Another thing, here comes the dead horse galloping in, if we are a team, we need a team UNIFORM.  I don't care what it is, but everyone should have the ability to wear the same thing everyone else is wearing. 

Agreed.

[Jester]

As Archie Bunker would say, "See, right there, you got your basic discrimination."  So you can join and become and officer, but not an NCO.  Hmmmmmm?? 

Well, to be fair, you don't walk in off the street and start as a NCO in the military, but those who meet the requirements can and do start off as a 2LT.

As has been beat to death, non-prior service attaining enlisted grade is in the cards down the road.

[Eclipse]

As has been beat to death, non-prior service attaining enlisted grade is in the cards down the road.

! No longer available

[SarDragon]

As Archie Bunker would say, "See, right there, you got your basic discrimination."  So you can join and become and officer, but not an NCO.  Hmmmmmm?? 

Well, to be fair, you don't walk in off the street and start as a NCO in the military, but those who meet the requirements can and do start off as a 2LT.

As has been beat to death, non-prior service attaining enlisted grade is in the cards down the road.

Folks don't just walk in off the street and become second lieutenants. Most are either academy grads or ROTC grads, and have had four years of training on being an officer. Others are prior enlisted, with their turn in "knife and fork school" before actually commissioning. If there's still a "90-day wonder" school, that's still not walking in off the street.

[Jester]

It's splitting hairs frankly. A 2LT by and large has little experience or expectations on him. Yes there are outliers but a NCO is expected to be a technical expert and have some tactical proficiency.

A person doesn't start off as an E-5 but the first step in the officer structure is O-1.

[lordmonar]

One thing I am still unclear about, and can't seem to find the answer.  Perhaps I missed it?  Can a non-prior service person go into the CAP as an NCO?

Not at this time.....but that is one of the goals of the NCO program.

[SarDragon]

It's splitting hairs frankly. A 2LT by and large has little experience or expectations on him. Yes there are outliers but a NCO is expected to be a technical expert and have some tactical proficiency.

A person doesn't start off as an E-5 but the first step in the officer structure is O-1.

There are two different promotion ladders, and two very different sets of expectations. An O-1 is expected to assume leadership roles right out of the chute, albeit small, and as a learner. And, there's almost always a SNCO standing by as a mentor.

NCOS have been through a different training and experience regimen, over the period of a couple of years, and already have time in the service before being given leadership roles.

It's not really fair to compare the two, because of these differences. We're discussing two different worlds here. I've also not forgotten the Mustang overlap, which is an entirely different topic, best left for another time.

[Майор Хаткевич]

And none of that applies to CAP because everyone enters with zero idea as to how WE operate.

[kwe1009]

And none of that applies to CAP because everyone enters with zero idea as to how WE operate.

And there is the core issue that many seem to forget.  I was a USAF MSgt when I joined CAP (went officer route) and I knew ZERO about CAP so if I did choose to be a CAP NCO and people looked to me to be a CAP expert they would have been in for a rude awakening. 

NCOs are looked at to either be experts or highly knowledgeable in their field.  There are probably very few new CAP NCOs that are knowledgeable of CAP.  It looks like we are trying to build a boat by throwing the engine in the water and then trying to build the boat around it before the engine sinks.  Let's build the boat (CAP SM junior enlisted), and then put the engine inside (CAP NCOs).

[dwr2829]

As a prior cadet, retired Chief, today is my first day as a Senior Member. After completing level one and ES along with all the protection training this weekend, what exactly is the process for my promotion to CMSgt in CAP? Just submitting my DD-214 through e-services? Asking this esteemed group rather than guessing or trying to dig it up in the regs. Thanks in advance....


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[Eclipse]

what exactly is the process for my promotion to CMSgt in CAP? Just submitting my DD-214 through e-services?

Per the regs, your CC or Personnel Officer would send the DD214 w/ the Form 2 direct to NHQ, however word here is that
they are now requiring the promotions be approved at all levels they normally would respective to the grade requested.

Speaking only for direct experience in my wing and region, military equivalent promotions, especially in the FGO and advanced NCO
areas are being scrutinized heavily for "what role will he play"?

As a former cadet, you may qualify for advanced professional development credit based on the level you completed there.