WSJ article

[lordmonar]

It's not an equal opportunity employer.

It is as far as the Equal Opportuntiy Employment Law is concerned.

But that is just a quibble

Everybody doesn't "deserve" a chance at serving in it.  It's not an entitlement to be able to serve.  It's not a career stepping stone or resume builder.  It doesn't exist so people can feel better about themselves or feel fulfilled or to pursue their lifelong dreams.  It exists to win on the battlefield (whether that battlefield be in the land, sea, air, space, or in the cyber world) decisively, every time, and with minimal losses.


Enlisting people who have indicators that they might be less than ideal is not a solid strategy for being effective at their main purpose. But even more especially when the military has more applicants than it has spaces for recruits, like we do right now.

All the rest I agree with you.   Every now and again some law maker spouts up about how we should start a mandatory draft again "It turned my life around".   I cringe every time I hear that old saw.  We are here to defend American and her interests......not be a jobs program.   

[Eclipse]

National service of some kind >should< be a mandate, especially with the high number of
directionless young people we have these days.

The military could be just one of a list of organizations which would benefit from this mandate,
but some sort of exposure to the real world within a few years of graduating high school
is good for everyone, whether that's the military, a charity, some NGO, or whatever.

A mass of working hands is just what this country could use right about now.

Every few years the idea of forgiving some or all student loan debt in exchange for public service is
floated and is shot down by some special interest group or another.

[PHall]

A mass of unskilled working hands is pretty much useless.

Now help them get the job skills you need today to get and keep a good paying job. That would be a public service.

[lordmonar]

If we wanted to reserve public service jobs for anyone.....let's hold them for only vets.   Serve your country for X years and you get priority placement in the GS jobs.

You can't "make" people do public "service" it is contrary to the whole idea of "service" as I was taught it.  (not saying those who got drafted are not up standing citizens who did not do an outstanding job!)

That's why I have always laughed at schools and such who try to teach a sense of volunteer community service by forcing their students to do XX hours to graduate.

[Eclipse]

Agreed - the only way to get people skills is to get them working or learning or preferably both.

[RRLE]

Every now and again some law maker spouts up about how we should start a mandatory draft again "It turned my life around".

If they say that and they are under 60 years old, they are lying. The last draft call possible was for the birth year 1953. The volunteer army came into being and the draft ended in June or July of 1973. To avoid any problems the military did not call up anyone in 1973, so the last year with an actual call-up was 1972, birth year 1952.

National service of some kind >should< be a mandate, especially with the high number of directionless young people we have these days.

Heinlein said it better than I can. I would just add in any mandatory "public" service to his quote.

I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United States. Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think this is shameful. If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say : Let the [darn]ed thing go down the drain!

Guest of Honor Speech at the 29th World Science Fiction Convention, Seattle, Washington (1961)

If we wanted to reserve public service jobs for anyone.....let's hold them for only vets.   Serve your country for X years and you get priority placement in the GS jobs.

That is already true and has been for a long time. Vets get a certain number of points added to their score. I don't know what it is now but in 1977 it was 10. In 1977, with a federal hiring freeze that was just about enough to keep all the jobs for the vets who weren't disabled. Disabled vets, I forget what percentage disability got them this "benefit", went right to the top of any hiring list they were qualified for.

I also think that forcing high school kids to perform community service would make them less inclined to volunteer in the future. For some the mandatory service is a joke, they get credit for anything they were already doing so they had no extra effort required.

[Flying Pig]

As a former Sq Leader and Plt Sgt myself, mandatory service would be miserable.  People whined and complained enough as it was... I couldn't imagine the American culture of teens being forced to serve.   If the youth of America need discipline, don't mix them in with those of us who actually wanted to live the life. 

[flyboy53]

National service of some kind >should< be a mandate, especially with the high number of
directionless young people we have these days.

The military could be just one of a list of organizations which would benefit from this mandate,
but some sort of exposure to the real world within a few years of graduating high school
is good for everyone, whether that's the military, a charity, some NGO, or whatever.

A mass of working hands is just what this country could use right about now.

Every few years the idea of forgiving some or all student loan debt in exchange for public service is
floated and is shot down by some special interest group or another.

I couldn't agree with you more. However, I don't believe "national service" should construed as military service only.

I'm of that era in the Air Force when there were still a number of "Category 4"s in the service. I was a junior airman then and didn't understand why someone with 14+ years in the service would only be an E-3 or airman first class until I learned about this project. I've even met a career E-4 once in the Navy who really did have about 30 years service when you included the 10 years he served in the Fleet Reserve. But I also don't believe in propaganda that says the program was a dismal failure -- after all, so many of those individuals performed their duties without question until some other program like rank/service ceilings forced them out and they did end up working menial jobs or on welfare.

I also don't believe they were dis-proportionately lost in Vietnam when most of those who served there were volunteers.

Consider this, do you really think that unqualified individuals have not fought in all of our Nations wars? Would Sgt. Alvin York have qualified for military service had he enlisted and had not been drafted. He only went to school for nine months before being pulled from school to work on the family farm.

I believe that national service should include things like the U.S. Job Corps or VISTA, AmeriCorps or other avenues such as the old Civilian Conservation Corps. We as a Congressionally Chartered organization have to follow EEO practices, so special standards are in place to assist those individuals with various handicaps. Imagine how CAP would change if someone could join to satisfy a national service requirement.

[Flying Pig]

I think one issue is that service like that has almost become regulated out of existence.  Pay, Medical, retirement, other benefits to include housing and transportation.    In todays day and age, could you imagine the US government requiring someone to leave home and perform a service?  You think people are conspiracy theorists now?!!   And can you imagine when someone gets hurt during their mandated national service?  We would own that person and their injury forever.   Mandatory "civilian" volunteer service is no longer compatible with the American culture or legal system. 

As far as CAP.... it would be complete drain on CAP.  because the people joining would not be the type of people we need.  In all seriousness, they show up, hang out and at the end of their 2 yrs, they would be gone.   Could you imagine being a Sq Commander having to manage hoards of 18-24yr olds beating down your door trying to get into CAP?  You would have 100,000 people just trying to get their ticket punched.  The record keeping that would be involved and not even going into the enforcement side of the house when they don't show up, or are being a discipline issue.

As much as I hate to say it... American culture no longer supports mandatory national service.

[JeffDG]

Mandatory "civilian" volunteer service is no longer compatible with the American culture or legal system. 
...
As much as I hate to say it... American culture no longer supports mandatory national service.

With the narrow exception of military draft, "mandatory volunteer service" would be suspect on 13th Amendment grounds.

[Flying Pig]

Cold you imagine the Youtube hysteria and the stories of people volunteering for mandatory service actually being herded off to FEMA concentration camps  

In all seriousness, if the US government tried to institute mandatory government service, with enforceable consequences if you didnt comply, people would be dying in the streets.  I can tell you for one.... I would not be the guy going to enforce it!  Bad enough that people already think cops are part of the new world order!

[Eclipse]

Then like I said, offer relief of student loans or other debt to those who "can" be bothered.
Maybe limit access to certain resources if you can't.  I don't know, "you're not allowed to ever use the express
lane at the Whole Foods unless you did your CS hours..."

My school district requires community service hours starting in 6th grade, all the way through high school.

Yes, there are more then a few kids whose parent game the system, or 3 weeks before the end of the school
year are desperately dragging old ladies across the street to make their hours, but on the whole its viewed
as a "good thing" by the community and is a practice that has been in pace for years.

[Tim Medeiros]

Then like I said, offer relief of student loans or other debt to those who "can" be bothered.

This already exists for federal student loans (not private), if you are in certain jobs (military, local/state/fed, non-profits etc) for 10 years, have made 120 months of payments, and are on an income based repayment plan.  You can apply for forgiveness once those conditions are met.  https://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/charts/public-service#what-must-i-do

[Flying Pig]

They offer similar programs to LEOs in exchange for buying a house in certain areas.  No thanks... Id rather be $60K in debt. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

In CG Aux, even if you couldn't "legally" wear the CG Aux's CG-style uniforms, you well know that there are alternatives that can be worn that would still let you participate in some CG Aux programs.  Now, there isn't an official definition of what a "trim, military appearance" is, but if you're overweight, but not obese, you're probably not going to have any real hassles. 

I never heard of anyone being forced to wear an "alternative" uniform during my time in the Aux, nor anyone even attempting to define "a trim, military appearance," and I saw quite a few people who were not "trim" wearing it...in the main correctly WRT proper insignia placement, cleaning, etc.

Some references state that they are subject to recall up to 60 years of age unless they volunteer to be recalled up to 70 years of age.  Some specific Specialties may be subject to recall indefinitely.

The only time I've actually heard of that happening is in the immediate post-9/11 period.  A retired Army Chief Warrant Officer in his late 60's was apparently recalled...and it was decided he had to go through Basic again!  His Drill Sergeant was in a quandary about what to do.  He said "The exercises we have for recruits would probably seriously injure a 60-year-old.  Plus, this guy was in the Army long before I was born and probably knows more about the Army than I do.  And he's an officer that I have to salute, so I sure can't treat him like a new recruit!"

The criteria for the SDF is that they can not be subject to recall to any U.S. Military organization.  (Can't serve two masters).

Some take it further than that.  An SDF tried to recruit me around the same time I joined CAP, and the recruiter told me that I had to choose between one or the other, that "you can't have both."

I do understand that even for the MBI you would have to do a Complete Background Investigation form (SF85 or SF86) depending on the investigation type but the threshold limits for that investigation are really established by the Coast Guard.

SF-85/86 are the forms that the Auxiliary uses (I checked).  I did an SF-85 some years ago when I rejoined the Auxiliary; relatively painless, but it's the "low-tier" ("Operational Support") membership.

SF-86 is the one where they ask how many times a day you've taken a dump, who your first crush was in grade school, did you fart in class in high school, did you ever tell an employer to get bent...and things like mental illnesses ("Direct Operations").  I don't hide from the fact that I suffer from severe depression and PTSD, severe enough for it to be a disabling condition.  What I consider an affront is that the PTB would consider, in the 21st century, the anachronistic view that those of us with such issues are somehow a "risk" to volunteer operations supporting the United States Coast Guard.

But the Commandant instituted it in '03, and it's here to stay.

The people skills of some of the investigators do need some work.   

Understatement of the day!

Your Boss may have lost his clearance by walking out of the interview not because of his wife (unless her Father worked for a Foreign Intelligence Service).   If she's not an American Citizen they just want to know why not?  A lot of times because it's too expensive or just haven't gotten around to it. 

He actually didn't lose his clearance.  As I said, they called him back into the room and he vented his spleen at them, telling them, among other things, that he had enough time in for retirement, and if they wanted to lose an officer commissioned from the ranks with commendations and combat decorations (Vietnam) up the wazoo (I remember seeing his ribbon rack) over something that trivial, that he didn't need that.  He kept his clearance and retired a few years later.

The Questions they ask are literally scripted. 

Then they need to revise their script.  This one isn't going to win any Academy Awards.

If you have a Foreign National with whom you have a Close relationship...I'm sorry but that is a security flag that the investigator needs to clarify some potential issues. 

I have Canadian relatives and distant relatives in Alsace-Lorraine.  They'd be concerned about that?

Don't let your PTSD disability be what defines you.  Report it.  An Investigator will meet with you and depending on the Case Type, They may ask you some very basic questions and ask you to sign a medical release form and maybe a Followup Release form.  (believe me it's not as invasive as they make it sound)

It's not, but it is a fact of my daily life.  It's already caused some aggro (at the local level) as to what I can/can't do for CAP.

You are an obvious exception to the rule of many, many daft gits over the years I have encountered who have thought they are self-appointed Freud/Jung clones qualified to "diagnose" or judge me, when they are not.  I have set many of them back on their ear (or other things) when they have tried to preach what my "real problems" are to me and their "solutions." 

I can see going through such a comprehensive investigation for the RealMilitary (I still have my ancient SF-86), but not to be able to clean the head at the local CG Station.

[RRLE]

As much as I hate to say it... American culture no longer supports mandatory national service.

America has never supported mandatory national service for adults, except for the draft in war time. Even the last must be taken with a barrel of salt - research the Civil War Draft Riots and the anti-draft movement that was a sub-set of the Vietnam War protests.

What America has supported, somewhat, was programs like the Civilian Conservation Corps and other New Deal Work Progress Administration programs. You volunteered for those programs, no one forced anyone into them. As soon as WWII ended the Great Depression and the draft was reinstated, those programs went by the boards.

[Luis R. Ramos]

From RRLE
As soon as WWII ended the Great Depression...

You should edit your words...

The Civilian Conservation Corps operated from 1933 to 1942. The draft started in 1940. World War II ended in 1945.

The Great Depression started in 1929 or so...

So, it was the start not the end of WWII that killed the program. So did the draft, but the draft had started two years before the CCC died.

The Great Depression did not kill the CCC as the CCC was a response, as well as other New Deal programs, to the Great Depression...

[Johnny Yuma]

Why bring in more than we're getting now, when we're kicking out a sizable chunk already? (at least on the AF side)

I agree.  The downsizing of military is in the down trend as it is after every conflict.  Enlistment/reenlistment standards will become more stringent until they start to need more troops again...then you'll see things like the National Guard going back to the Forty Year Old No Prior Service Enlistee.

The only problem is that our enemies are still at war with us and we see old enemies flexing their muscles again 

Meanwhile we're purging the ranks of warriors in every branch and replacing them with Pretty People.