May 2012 NEC agenda

[JeffDG]

I don't know...but I feel that there are those on the BoG who want to keep the report secret for now....so that they have chance to make a decision in peace.....with out 7000 people joggeling their arms and making a bunch of noise about what they think is the right way of doing things.

As I said, it will be released when the changes are a fait acompli.

That's fine, they have the right to proceed in that fashion.  But don't blow sunshine up my backside and say that the process will be open and transparent, then do the opposite.

[FW]

And "seeing it" you would do what, exactly?

Read it

Yes.  And then what?

Think about the implications, form an opinion and speak to my corporate officer....you know, like we are supposed to.

The membrership and national board had their say already.  It's really now up to the Board of Governors to make the decisions.  How much more input from us is needed?  It took about 2 years of confidential discussion to end up with what we have now.  The membership (including the NB) was not "consulted" then.  This time, we have.  Now it's up to the BoG.  That they want a "transparent" process is nice however, they will be making decisions.  I can only hope they will have the best interests of all concerned when they decide...

[lordmonar]

I don't know...but I feel that there are those on the BoG who want to keep the report secret for now....so that they have chance to make a decision in peace.....with out 7000 people joggeling their arms and making a bunch of noise about what they think is the right way of doing things.

As I said, it will be released when the changes are a fait acompli.

That's fine, they have the right to proceed in that fashion.  But don't blow sunshine up my backside and say that the process will be open and transparent, then do the opposite.

Well....that as you say is only in the doing....you can't accuse the BoG of blowing sunshine up your backside until it is after the fact.  Who knows....may Ned is going to be at the next BoG meeting and get them to release it.....now then you look like the Buttocks......be patiant.

If they announce "here are out changes.....oh and by the way here is the Board Source Report" then by all means you can be all bent out of shape.....but until then you are sounding like a kid.

[NCRblues]

Think about the implications, form an opinion and speak to my corporate officer....you know, like we are supposed to.

See above.  When your corporate officer is ready for opinions, he'll ask for them, until then, unsolicited, and perhaps improperly informed opinions will just make their job more difficult.

Not how it works Eclipse. I have every right to go up my chain and state my opinions. I have to wait for no one to ask what I think. This is not the military; I retain my rights as a citizen to voice concern over the handling of public tax funds. (Remember, we used part tax money to fund the boardsource report)

[johnnyb47]

I don't know...but I feel that there are those on the BoG who want to keep the report secret for now....so that they have chance to make a decision in peace.....with out 7000 people joggeling their arms and making a bunch of noise about what they think is the right way of doing things.

As I said, it will be released when the changes are a fait acompli.

That's fine, they have the right to proceed in that fashion.  But don't blow sunshine up my backside and say that the process will be open and transparent, then do the opposite.

shouldnt there be two C's in that phrase?
"fait accompli"

[JeffDG]

I don't know...but I feel that there are those on the BoG who want to keep the report secret for now....so that they have chance to make a decision in peace.....with out 7000 people joggeling their arms and making a bunch of noise about what they think is the right way of doing things.

As I said, it will be released when the changes are a fait acompli.

That's fine, they have the right to proceed in that fashion.  But don't blow sunshine up my backside and say that the process will be open and transparent, then do the opposite.

shouldnt there be two C's in that phrase?
"fait accompli"

Oh, probably...my French really sucks!

[Extremepredjudice]

And "seeing it" you would do what, exactly?

Read it

So....why do you want to read it NOW as opposed to say a year from now?

I'm a little late to the party, but I'd like to say something: What makes you think it will be relevant a year or two down the road? Stuff changes.

[Spaceman3750]

And "seeing it" you would do what, exactly?

Read it

So....why do you want to read it NOW as opposed to say a year from now?

I'm a little late to the party, but I'd like to say something: What makes you think it will be relevant a year or two down the road? Stuff changes.

In terms of corporate governance a year or two is a very short period of time.

[NCRblues]

And "seeing it" you would do what, exactly?

Read it

So....why do you want to read it NOW as opposed to say a year from now?

I'm a little late to the party, but I'd like to say something: What makes you think it will be relevant a year or two down the road? Stuff changes.

In terms of corporate governance a year or two is a very short period of time.

And yet, in a year or two everything can change. In less than a year CAP went from having HWSRN as commander, to having an interim commander to having our first elected female commander. One day can make a huge difference. The argument goes both ways on this.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Oh, probably...my French really sucks!

This from a native Canadian?!?!?!?!?!

Especially one who was going to join the Canadian Armed Forces/Forces armees canadiennes?

Just putting you on...the vast majority of my Canadian friends/relatives don't speak it very well either.

[Al Sayre]

When it's all boiled down, we as members have 3 choices:

A.  Cheerfully accept whatever changes get made.

B.  Grumble, gripe and then carry on with our duties.

C.  Take our ball and go home.

If your final answer is A or B, then timing of the release really doesn't make any difference. 
If it's C, then the worst result is that you've spent some extra time serving your community, and everyone thanks you for your service.

JMHO

[Eclipse]

Not how it works Eclipse. I have every right to go up my chain and state my opinions. I have to wait for no one to ask what I think. This is not the military; I retain my rights as a citizen to voice concern over the handling of public tax funds. (Remember, we used part tax money to fund the boardsource report)

Yes, feel free.

I think we all know how effective unsolicited opinions are in influencing people.

[RiverAux]

Having been involved in quite a few processes where some sort of document is being prepared and for which public input is solicited both at the beginning of the process and after a draft document has been produced, I've got to say that comments made coming in from out of the blue at the beginning of the process are generally not worth very much. 

What matters is the document and the ability of the public to comment on that document before it is accepted or finalized.  That is when public input is most valuable both in terms of finding mistakes and problems in that document as well as exposing areas that should have been included.

In the case of this report, it is going to have a much greater impact on potential actions than probably most of the pre-report comments received combined.  We should have been given an opportunity to comment on a draft of that report just as we should be able to comment on any proposed actions before they are taken. 

If CAP REALLY wanted our opinions there would be opportunities for everyone to comment directly through every single phase of the process. 

[JeffDG]

Oh, probably...my French really sucks!

This from a native Canadian?!?!?!?!?!

Especially one who was going to join the Canadian Armed Forces/Forces armees canadiennes?

Just putting you on...the vast majority of my Canadian friends/relatives don't speak it very well either.

A native Western Canadian...

And if I had been accepted into the CF Regular Officer Training Program, my summer between high school and Royal Military College would have been spent in Quebec in an intensive French Immersion program...officers are required to be bi-lingual.

The great advantage I have is with my in-laws.  My wife's mother's family is french-only speakers, so I have half my in-laws that I have no capability to communicate with...a huge plus!

[JeffDG]

When it's all boiled down, we as members have 3 choices:

A.  Cheerfully accept whatever changes get made.

B.  Grumble, gripe and then carry on with our duties.

C.  Take our ball and go home.

If your final answer is A or B, then timing of the release really doesn't make any difference. 
If it's C, then the worst result is that you've spent some extra time serving your community, and everyone thanks you for your service.

JMHO

You see, I posit an option D:  Provide thoughtful and reasonable input to make the system better for everyone.  But if denied information until all the decisions are made, you're pretty much stuck with those, but you've thrown away an opportunity to make things better.

[lordmonar]

When it's all boiled down, we as members have 3 choices:

A.  Cheerfully accept whatever changes get made.

B.  Grumble, gripe and then carry on with our duties.

C.  Take our ball and go home.

If your final answer is A or B, then timing of the release really doesn't make any difference. 
If it's C, then the worst result is that you've spent some extra time serving your community, and everyone thanks you for your service.

JMHO

You see, I posit an option D:  Provide thoughtful and reasonable input to make the system better for everyone.  But if denied information until all the decisions are made, you're pretty much stuck with those, but you've thrown away an opportunity to make things better.

Well maybe that's the problem.  For 60 years (or at least the last 20+) CAP has been seeking thoughtful and reasonable input from their member through the NB.........I can't really say that that has work to everyone's satisfaction.

I guess what the real problem is that some people just don't trust our leadership at any level beyond the squadron.  (I am not one of these).

I am in the group that says "let's see what they do, with out jumping to conclusions and demanding that they "listen to me!"".  If the BoG screws the pooch on this.....I can always opt for Option B or Option C and go find somewhere else to go an play.

[jimmydeanno]

I have no problem with the delay.  The report was formed by looking at our C&BL, and our opinions.  You can probably come up with a few possibilities about what the report says on your own.  I bet a significant portion of it is just an analysis of how we currently do business, and then a comparison of that to how others do business (at least the model, without the organizations they belong to).

A report, without any accompanied information from the folks who would be looking at it is pretty much useless.  It only leaves the door open to speculation, and creates unneeded turmoil and rumor mills.  The processed report, with dialog from the BoG would be far more useful to see, and that I'm more interested in.

Without the dialog, how can we [the membership] offer opinion about the potential decision without knowing what direction the BoG would want to steer us in, in the first place?

[Larry Mangum]

You know what the problem is with "Transparency"? It is that the word means something different to each person based upon their experiences and level within the hierarchy.
Once upon a time I was a Chief of Staff for a rather large wing. As part of the command structure, we strived to practice transparency in everything that we were allowed to. But no matter how hard we tried there was always someone who complained that we were not.  We solicited input; held open meetings, and then made decisions based upon member input, the regulations and experience, but if we did not reach the conclusion they wanted then we were not transparent.
Since then I have served at the region level again, served on national committees, continue to teach at NESA and am currently serving as an active Squadron Commander in a different wing, and I still hear people complaining about transparency, even though the processes are in most cases as transparent as they can be made.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And if I had been accepted into the CF Regular Officer Training Program, my summer between high school and Royal Military College would have been spent in Quebec in an intensive French Immersion program...officers are required to be bi-lingual.

The great advantage I have is with my in-laws.  My wife's mother's family is french-only speakers, so I have half my in-laws that I have no capability to communicate with...a huge plus!

Isn't full, functional bilingualism required for promotion to Colonel/Captain?  I think I read that somewhere.

Imagine if something like that were required for CAP...

My relatives around Kitchener, Ontario are much more likely to speak German (think Oktoberfest) than French (or even English!).

At least the Canadian Armed Forces/Forces armees canadiennes were up-front with you about what you had to do...sometimes I wish CAP were more cut-and-dried about expectations; we'd have a lot less YMMV.

[JeffDG]

And if I had been accepted into the CF Regular Officer Training Program, my summer between high school and Royal Military College would have been spent in Quebec in an intensive French Immersion program...officers are required to be bi-lingual.

The great advantage I have is with my in-laws.  My wife's mother's family is french-only speakers, so I have half my in-laws that I have no capability to communicate with...a huge plus!

Isn't full, functional bilingualism required for promotion to Colonel/Captain?  I think I read that somewhere.

Imagine if something like that were required for CAP...

My relatives around Kitchener, Ontario are much more likely to speak German (think Oktoberfest) than French (or even English!).

At least the Canadian Armed Forces/Forces armees canadiennes were up-front with you about what you had to do...sometimes I wish CAP were more cut-and-dried about expectations; we'd have a lot less YMMV.

No, it's required for commissioning.