Structural Change

[JohnKachenmeister]

Hey, Dragoon:

I just posted a comment under yours in the "Uniform" part, in the thread about retirees wearing military uniforms. 

I said I like your idea about FO grade for everybody in CAP.

If you would be so kind, could you develop this idea a little more, and post it under the Paper:  Structual Change thread so that others can get a look at it?  I believe your idea has merit.

[RogueLeader]

Everbody interested in this topic should read the thread "Post Winter Storm Patrols" in the Emergency Services section.

Colorado Wing is under the Adjutant General, and (According to their chart) co-equal with the army and air guard. 

They operated seamlessly, starting out as a Title 36 mission, changing to a Title 10 mission, and returning to a Title 36 mission as the mission concentrated on locating livestock rather than people.

They directly coordinated, plane-to-plane with active duty and NG helicopters, set up a joint HQ with the state EMA, and communicated with local commercial stations to broadcast instructions to trapped motorists.

They had, but did not use, capability to communicate directly with law enforcement and military forces on the ground.  Use of direct air to ground communications was limited in their operations order to emergencies only, due to existing traffic on those frequencies.  Ground unit taskings were to go through EMA.

THAT'S WHAT I MEAN

When I say placing CAP wings under NG command makes CAP a flexible and agile partner, and why CAP must hew close to its military roots.

Yup.  That's where I want to be.

Amen counr me in.

[Earhart1971]

.

From DNall
You do that & AF will slap you sideways. We take our NEEDS to the AF & try to explain how desperately we NEED them, then all the rest of the AF does the same thing,

DNall, I propose nothing of the kind (asking the Air Force for money), and how will the Air Force slap us?

Take away Search and Rescue?

Asking the Air Force for more money out of their budget is stupid.

The Congress, has the purse strings.

The CAP Lobby would go direct to the money source, and explain to Congress, not the Air Force.

I was in the Air Force, I have been at Maxwell AFB, I know the politics, first hand.


The Air Force, feels about CAP, about the same way they feel about a competing service like the Army.

[Dragoon]

I think the concern was with this part.

I propose throwing money at the problem.

If I were the National Commander this is what I would do, but no, don't appoint me, LOL.

1. Get every National Capital Squadron Congressman and Senator, in a meeting in Washington D.C.. Preferably a hotel conference room, focus on the numbers. The budget for CAP compared to the mission expansion and expectations is insane.

2. Present the real needs of CAP and a realistic Budget, not the Admin Budget we have now, with CAP on life support.

Which sounds like "screw USAF, let's go straight to Congress!"

Admittedly, we've done it before.  And we can do it again.  But it ain't gonna make USAF like us any more. 

Imagine if Air Mobility Command went straight to Congress when they didn't like their USAF budget....someone would be looking for a new job.

[Major_Chuck]

I think the concern was with this part.

I propose throwing money at the problem.

If I were the National Commander this is what I would do, but no, don't appoint me, LOL.

1. Get every National Capital Squadron Congressman and Senator, in a meeting in Washington D.C.. Preferably a hotel conference room, focus on the numbers. The budget for CAP compared to the mission expansion and expectations is insane.

2. Present the real needs of CAP and a realistic Budget, not the Admin Budget we have now, with CAP on life support.

Which sounds like "screw USAF, let's go straight to Congress!"

Admittedly, we've done it before.  And we can do it again.  But it ain't gonna make USAF like us any more. 

Imagine if Air Mobility Command went straight to Congress when they didn't like their USAF budget....someone would be looking for a new job.

In the real world I am the business manager for a trauma emergency department.  The 'staff' at times does not believe that I have to operate under hospital rules and have a set budget provided by the state.  Frequently 'they' attempt to jump over me when I say 'no' (after outlining why I am saying no) and go to my boss hoping he will say yes. 

It irks the crap out of me and leaves a real bad taste in my mouth.  Especially when the answer continues to be 'no'.   That is the way the AF will feel towards us.  We want better relations with the AF, it doesn't happen this way.

[Earhart1971]

I think the concern was with this part.

I propose throwing money at the problem.

If I were the National Commander this is what I would do, but no, don't appoint me, LOL.

1. Get every National Capital Squadron Congressman and Senator, in a meeting in Washington D.C.. Preferably a hotel conference room, focus on the numbers. The budget for CAP compared to the mission expansion and expectations is insane.

2. Present the real needs of CAP and a realistic Budget, not the Admin Budget we have now, with CAP on life support.

Which sounds like "screw USAF, let's go straight to Congress!"

By going to Congress we are not "screwing" the Air Force, on the contrary, we are exposing our vision to people that can do something about it.

[Earhart1971]

I think the concern was with this part.

I propose throwing money at the problem.

If I were the National Commander this is what I would do, but no, don't appoint me, LOL.

1. Get every National Capital Squadron Congressman and Senator, in a meeting in Washington D.C.. Preferably a hotel conference room, focus on the numbers. The budget for CAP compared to the mission expansion and expectations is insane.

2. Present the real needs of CAP and a realistic Budget, not the Admin Budget we have now, with CAP on life support.

Which sounds like "screw USAF, let's go straight to Congress!"

Admittedly, we've done it before.  And we can do it again.  But it ain't gonna make USAF like us any more. 

Imagine if Air Mobility Command went straight to Congress when they didn't like their USAF budget....someone would be looking for a new job.

It irks the crap out of me and leaves a real bad taste in my mouth.  Especially when the answer continues to be 'no'.   That is the way the AF will feel towards us.  We want better relations with the AF, it doesn't happen this way.

Major, let me explain it to you.

We do our SAR hours for 75 to $100 per hour, and the next alternative to that is either Sheriff Aircraft or Air Force, with a range of $500 to $3000 per hour.

So, my thinking is we are way under the market cost for SAR.

Would your doctors and nurses work in a hospital that asked them to work at less than 10% of what others doing the same work are doing?

Because CAP is dumb, the Air Force will like us better if we stay dumb?

We should be at twice the hour rate we get now, that would cost us less in member turnover, and the usual operating out of membership wallets.

CAP cannot succeed by going to an Air Force General and asking for more money, it won't work.  ATC tried to take 4 million to 6 million out of our budget last year.

So, no I don't care about Air Force relations right now, because its destroying our organization, little by little.

I could explain this to an Air Force General, and they would understand before I left the meeting why I have to go direct to Congress.

[Major_Chuck]

So you are willing to bite the hand that feeds you then?  I happen to care very much about what the Air Force thinks and feels about us.

Congress doesn't set our budget, the Air Force does.  They givith and they also taketh away.  Congress mandates that AF supports us but they don't sit there and say AF give CAP XXX millions of dollars.

For all the nice talk about how much we can save Congress doesn't care about that.  It is a nice selling techinique but with billions of dollars being dumped into overpriced pork barrel projects, we are nothing but a drop in the bucket.

I don't believe it is the AF that is destroying the relationship but CAP.  I don't believe that CAP would survive as an entity without AF support.  If the object is to turn us into some civilian SAR agency there are already enough of them out there.  CAP would fold up and implode on itself from a undertrained membership that relies on a very small percentage to turn out for real world missions.

Way too often I've heard the tale of missions that couldn't be covered because no one wanted to come out on a rainy night.  Pilots that only wanted to fly when it was nice and convienient, and ground teams that only showed up on training missions.

If we go the route you propose you'll also have to change the mentality of a large number of our members who train but don't come to play when the balloon goes up. 

There would have to be a massive attitude change to justify more funds from Congress, especially after the AF said 'fine, you go  your way but don't ask us for help."

[ZigZag911]

Chuck:

AMEN!!!

[Earhart1971]

Major Chuck if you are for the status quo,

Why waste time here, replying to my posts?

Sit back and do the same things we are doing, and nothing will change.

CAP will remain an organization that churns 100% of its strength every 6 years or so.

CAPs problems are not structural, its severe under funding and neglect, and fear of asking for what we need.

You make my point clearly, fear of what the Air Force will do, if we ask for more.

For what we do, CAP is under funded by about 200 million.

[DNall]

.

From DNall
You do that & AF will slap you sideways. We take our NEEDS to the AF & try to explain how desperately we NEED them, then all the rest of the AF does the same thing,

DNall, I propose nothing of the kind (asking the Air Force for money), and how will the Air Force slap us?

Take away Search and Rescue?

Asking the Air Force for more money out of their budget is stupid.

The Congress, has the purse strings.

The CAP Lobby would go direct to the money source, and explain to Congress, not the Air Force.

I was in the Air Force, I have been at Maxwell AFB, I know the politics, first hand.


The Air Force, feels about CAP, about the same way they feel about a competing service like the Army.

Let me say this again. I work for Congress, or did till I left in June, & did so for several years. Every year CAPO submits a request for funding, AF reviews it as a part of their overall priorities, then THEY submit to Congress, President submits a seperate document, Congress creates a third argued in Cmte, altered on the floor, that's the appropriation process. CAP belongs to the AF in the federal budget.

IF you go to congress asking for money the AF refused to give... if it is given to you it will come from other AF priorities that AF has already said were more important, if it isn;t then you just jumped oyu chain of command like a mo-fo. Either way AF will hold a gurdge!!! As will some in Congress.

Yes the Af does feel about CAP like they do a service like the Navy. They recognize them as necessary to the big picuture & respect that they must meet their overall funding goals, but not at the cost of AF priorities. That's why all service budget requests go thru the SecDef before Congress sees them, and don't think CAP isn't adjusted here or there as they see it necessary. Either this is service to the US govt, or this is mercenary. I got a big problem w/ one of those w/o seeing the 200k paycheck!!!

[DNall]

Someone said:
Major, let me explain it to you.

We do our SAR hours for 75 to $100 per hour, and the next alternative to that is either Sheriff Aircraft or Air Force, with a range of $500 to $3000 per hour.

So, my thinking is we are way under the market cost for SAR.

Would your doctors and nurses work in a hospital that asked them to work at less than 10% of what others doing the same work are doing?

Because CAP is dumb, the Air Force will like us better if we stay dumb?

We should be at twice the hour rate we get now, that would cost us less in member turnover, and the usual operating out of membership wallets.

CAP cannot succeed by going to an Air Force General and asking for more money, it won't work.  ATC tried to take 4 million to 6 million out of our budget last year.

So, no I don't care about Air Force relations right now, because its destroying our organization, little by little.

I could explain this to an Air Force General, and they would understand before I left the meeting why I have to go direct to Congress.

Actually, the mission belongs to Serriff's dept or state hwy patrol. The cost to AF on them taking it is zero. It's their mission & they are SUPPOSED to operate it at THEIR expense. That's the law. The AF is ALLOWED, but NOT required to ASSIST when state/local resouces physically cannot do the job to such an extent that it endangers life or property if the feds don't step in. Those are the conditions under which a CAP mission happens, bew that an ELT or disaster response like we did in Katrina. Furthermore, the cost of operating a Cessna, plus two paid troopers is FAR less than $500/hr. What cop do you know making $50/hr, nuch less $200/hr each.

I don't really care what you think. AF has bent over backwards to support us in tune with national priorities. We have a 100million dollar aircraft fleet paid for w/ not one dime of member money & every dime subtracted from things like another F22. Who knows in vans or radios, tens of millions. The AF has increased the part of the budget that reaches the field people like us & cut the part that deal with their reservists over us & the paid staff that are tehre to pick up the pieces scatered by inept part-time volunteers. They've done nothing but express faith & support to all of us. The things they've done to restrict us have been to keep us acting like the AF so that we can be funded thru the AF on AF missions. If we get too far out of that box then AF will not be able to defend our actions any longer. If you have complaints, you're very misinformed to direct them at the AF. We've had rocky times in our past where AF leaders were frustrated by CAP but ultimately stood by us. We waiver a bit today & approach new rocky times, but that's not because of anything on the AF side. You need to check your sources & look a littl deeper into things if you're not seeing that. I can direct you to people who'll be glad to straighten you out if your choose.

[Dragoon]

This is actually a neat conversation, because it shows us how a good CAPer can support not having close ties with USAF.

We like the idea of being part of the military, wearing green flight suits with military rank, having USAFAUX on our planes, etc.

But.....part of being "military" is obeying orders, and following the chain of command.  Even when the chain says "I'm going to underfund you."

By going "corporate," we can shop around for missions and money. And we CAN go straight to Congress.

But... then we aren't Air Force anymore.


I think most CAP members want to be extremely close to the Air Force, but also have the Air Force treat us as an equal.  Sadly, 60+ years of experience say this won't be the case.  Not for any nefarious reason, but simply because we don't support the core missions of USAF - Air Superiority and putting bombs on target.  We are a niche player.

It's a quandary, and is one explanation why we go design a non-USAF uniform that looks all military and a lot LIKE a USAF uniform.  It's an example of those dual desires - to be just like USAF, but to not be constrained by USAF.

Tough one, ain't it?

[LtCol White]

As has been said MANY times...pissing off USAF is how we got maroon and then grey epaulets.

If we want more money and don't wanna piss off USAF, then we need to sell the value to USAF and convince them why we deserve more funding from them. Working WITH them and not AROUND them is how the relationship gets fixed and improved.

[isuhawkeye]

what are we going to do with more money.  god knows it shouldnt wont go to the squadrons

[mikeylikey]

CAP NHQ goes to Congress to get appropriations from Congress.  They may pass it up through the AF side, but the money we get has specificly been earmarked for CAP in the appropriations legislation.  The AF is the agency that Congress says to dish it out to us.  The AF screwed up last year by not giving CAP it's money.  They tried to illegaly hold money that the FEDS marked for us.  CAP went to congress, becuase you realy can't go to AF when they were the ones who wronged you to begin with.   

[Earhart1971]

DNall, you worked for Congress, and you have a lot to offer us as far as information.

So, we get 100 Million in equipment, and how much funding to operate that equipment?

Our operating Budget is 30 million give or take.

What should our operating Budget be?

[Earhart1971]

As has been said MANY times...pissing off USAF is how we got maroon and then grey epaulets.

If we want more money and don't wanna piss off USAF, then we need to sell the value to USAF and convince them why we deserve more funding from them. Working WITH them and not AROUND them is how the relationship gets fixed and improved.

You cannot sell the Air Force, they want to decrease our funding.

I know when the Maroon Eps started, Seniors going to Maxwell, and extremely out of weight standards, in Air Force Uniform. Nothing can be done on that, Air Force retirees in their 50s, 60s are over weight too.

The Air Force by the way is not pissed at us, they would be silly to be pissed, they just do not want us to wake up to how we are being underfunded.

The Air Force, wants the status quo.

Right now they got a resouce in CAP, that cannot be replaced, we work so cheap, they hope we never wakeup and smell the coffee.

At our current level of funding, frankly I don't see us surviving, we will dwindle away and die.

[isuhawkeye]

I think that we will continue to chase our tail with this one until we decide what it is we want to do.  Let's review our history.

•   We started as an independent operation. 
•   When we proved our self we moved under (the historical equivilant)DOD
•   At the time Army aviation was the most appropriate supporter
•   Then after the air force was created they became our guardian.  This move didn't take place until it was determined that they were the most appropriate agency to support our ever evolving mission. 
•   In the future our needs, and those of the air force might facilitate more changes

The key here is mission.  In our history we as an organization have determined our role.  It is neither our job to bully around the air force, nor is it to beg from them.  I see a lot of talk about structure with out any talk regarding mission.  Once we decide what our focus is to be our structure and funding will follow.

This discussion is very similar to the talks that are going on in other emergency services.  Fire/EMS specifically.  Funding is short.  Staffing is minimal, and volunteers are passionate but sparse.  Consistently the agencies who can develop a scope, and articulate those needs are the ones who can develop an organizational structure, and justify their funding.

[afgeo4]

Sometimes when you petition congress for money they say "no". Sometimes they say "yes". I'm more afraid of them saying yes frankly.

They money they allocate to CAP isn't coming from some big money bag they have at their feet with "miscelaneous expenses" written on it. Every penny is budgetized, so whose budget will pay for this? Well... the appropriations committee will say "these guys are the Air Force Auxiliary, so the Air Force should pay for this and we'll order them to"  Great... the Air Force budget pays for all these increases!

Let's see... the Air Force has 4 major weapons systems projects... F-22, F-35, CV-22, and CH-46.  The Raptor already got scaled down to the point where there aren't enough a/c being made to do the job. The JSF program's in a big fiscal crapper too and I suspect that with the newly proposed growth of the Army and Marine Corps, there will be more scaling down of the other 2 branches.

You see, the DoD budget is a fixed number. Sure, you can stretch some of it, but it's mostly a set figure. If you will be increasing the force strength, the money has to come from somewhere else. As in past, a large chunk of it will come from the Air Force and Navy budgets. We always do toot about being able to do with 1 man what we used to do with 10. So now skip a couple of years into the future and imagine 2 USAF officers looking over the budget and all the cuts to their manpower and weapons systems and they look at why and who...

... I would rather CAP didn't appear on that list.

I would rather CAP appeared on the "saving you more money than ever before" list.

Of course that's if you REALLY want to help the Air Force.