Structural Change

[isuhawkeye]

I've sat here and watched you guys banter about federal response to SAR.  Let's get a few things straight.  SAR within CONUS is the Preview of LOCAL authorities.  The only times that Federal asset bypass local authorities in terms of SAR occur on Water ways (COAST GUARD) and on federal property (National Park Service, or military).  Beyond that SAR is regulated by the states, and most states have delegated that authority to local jurisdictions (many cases county sheriff). 

The National SAR plan was written to assist local authorities WHEN REQUESTED.

When AFRCC tasks CAP they do so within the guidance of an MOU with that particular state.  If the state dictates that they want to turn off ELT's, then they do it.  If the state wants the boy scouts to do it, then it is so. 

AFRCC asks a lot of resources to assist with SAR.  They are a gateway for federal support when requested. 

I apologize for ranting, but in the end my point is this.  All missions generate support to local authorities.  No state, Federal, or other entity will ever take over operational control of any mission unless requested.

If you want to get missions, support your community, and actually do the things that this organization claims that it can do then you need to build relationships with the states, and below.  Every year thousands of people go missing, hundreds of tornado's tear across the U.S., and uncountable other disasters take place.  On a given year les than a thousand of these events actually receive federal support of any kind.  Unless we are imbedded, and supporting the countless local missions that take place we will not be able to continue to justify the Search and Rescue, or disaster relief components of our ES mission.

My opinion. 

John S. Halbrook
"ISUHawkeye"

[DNall]

I've sat here and watched you guys banter about federal response to SAR.  Let's get a few things straight.  SAR within CONUS is the Preview of LOCAL authorities.  The only times that Federal asset bypass local authorities in terms of SAR occur on Water ways (COAST GUARD) and on federal property (National Park Service, or military).  Beyond that SAR is regulated by the states, and most states have delegated that authority to local jurisdictions (many cases county sheriff). 

The National SAR plan was written to assist local authorities WHEN REQUESTED.

When AFRCC tasks CAP they do so within the guidance of an MOU with that particular state.  If the state dictates that they want to turn off ELT's, then they do it.  If the state wants the boy scouts to do it, then it is so. 

AFRCC asks a lot of resources to assist with SAR.  They are a gateway for federal support when requested. 

I apologize for ranting, but in the end my point is this.  All missions generate support to local authorities.  No state, Federal, or other entity will ever take over operational control of any mission unless requested.

If you want to get missions, support your community, and actually do the things that this organization claims that it can do then you need to build relationships with the states, and below.  Every year thousands of people go missing, hundreds of tornado's tear across the U.S., and uncountable other disasters take place.  On a given year les than a thousand of these events actually receive federal support of any kind.  Unless we are imbedded, and supporting the countless local missions that take place we will not be able to continue to justify the Search and Rescue, or disaster relief components of our ES mission

John,
That's all true to an extent. The local community is still going to go to the feds to get our support, but building the relationship & having liaisons about is going to make more of those calls happen. In that manner, states get the support of federal assets on the federal dime in situations where it doesn't even approach being a state declared disaster. Be careful what statistics you use or you're going to mislead yourself.

For perspective though... CAP is not about doing missions. It's about serving the needs fo the AF & using our excess capactity to help a short list of others within the bounds of our AF-centric specialized training. I know you're in Iowa where maybe there isn't a mosque down the road with 10k members, a couple terrorist cells thought to be operational in town, a refinery or chemical plant on every corner, major ship channel, 4 pro stadiums & 3 big colleges, all of which at have events on the same night in a 15 mile radius. You want to load up the plane, radios, & vans Congress bought us w/ people that get at least some of their training covered (tho you'd never notice) by congress=, and you want to go find Sally missing in teh woods? Hey man, more power to ya. It feels good I know & it sure looks like you're doing some good. You know it's good to fight fires too, but they don't call me in to do that. If you swerve a little out of your lane here & there for the best then no big deal, but keep your eye on the centerline & know which lane you're supposed to be in. There's more important work for us to be doing as an org. I'm sure we can do both, but let's not get distracted by the little things.

[RiverAux]

SAR within CONUS is the Preview of LOCAL authorities.  The only times that Federal asset bypass local authorities in terms of SAR occur on Water ways (COAST GUARD) and on federal property (National Park Service, or military).  Beyond that SAR is regulated by the states, and most states have delegated that authority to local jurisdictions (many cases county sheriff). 

Isn't the National SAR plan implementing an international treaty and don't such treaties have the force of federal law?  I could be wrong in thinking it is a treaty, rather than some other sort of agreement though.  Any lawyers out there care to comment? 

Keep in mind that the AFRCC has agreements with states on how air searches are made.  If your opinion is correct then a state could totally refuse to participate and could do anything they want in terms of air search.  Hard to believe.  Sure, the state can decide who they want to do the mission, but the AFRCC is still in charge. 

[DNall]

No river actually he's right abou tthis. States hold the authority for inland SaR, not feds. AFRCC is a COORDINATING agency whose only job is to take the high tech sat feed & give it to the state. It's when the state isn't equipped to do the mission (just like when a flood overwhelms a community) that the state then tells AFRCC they need help. They can either say who they want it assigned to or AFRCC will pull up the most appropriate resources, be that CAP, DoD, state, local/mutual-aid, private SaR club down the street, whatever.

I'll give you an example how it works in my state... ELT goes off, AFRCC calls the DPS alert officer (used to wake up one specific guy, even catch him on vacation), if they have a confirmed crash & probably location then DPS is on the way & local fire/rescue is on standby... if it's an actual crash that requires search then they first check to see if DPS aircraft are close & crews are on duty, they'll also send cruisers around the area to take a look. After their hasty search, then CAP gets the call for a REDCAP. If it's just an ELT they figure it's BS & can't find it anyway so they tell them to just call CAP. We've had FAA call direct w/ a LKP, AFRCC starting a mission number, & CAP spinning up resources before AF told us to (but w/ that mission number), still can't go to DPS says so - they're in charge of aviation for the state. Other states vary. Some have an MOU that says call CAP direct, other do not allow CAP ops - Colorado for instance if I'm not mistaken doesn't allow CAP ground teams on SaR, even in the less mountainous parts, some state over in the dessert too I think. That's jsut the way it is. SaR is NOT an AF mission. What AFRCC does IS an AF mission, what CAP does is AF doing charity work for poor states that can't afford their own resources.

[Earhart1971]

I propose throwing money at the problem.

If I were the National Commander this is what I would do, but no, don't appoint me, LOL.

1. Get every National Capital Squadron Congressman and Senator, in a meeting in Washington D.C.. Preferably a hotel conference room, focus on the numbers. The budget for CAP compared to the mission expansion and expectations is insane.

2. Present the real needs of CAP and a realistic Budget, not the Admin Budget we have now, with CAP on life support.

Questions to be asked like:

You want us to Educate with Aerospace ED,  have a Cadet Program, you want Homeland Security, SAR, and Border Support, ON WHAT?

AIR and  best WISHES?

Our members are supporting these missions with their wallets.

Send us some PORK! right now!

If you can find a more deserving organization that operates on the cheap besides the Marines, that handles multiple missions, with one hand behind the back, let me know.

We have overtly high expectations,  high compliance requirements, and a lot of  pressure on individual members.  100% membership turnover in 5 years, sends us a message.

3. Start with a budget that makes sense for the missions we perform. 75 Million for the 2007 Budget,  with yearly 20% increases, so we can get to a sane level of funding.

The Air Force funds AFJROTC with 200 million per year, their only mission is to teach a class in school. Gee, wouldn't that be a nice budget to work with with all our missions we are tasked with.

Cadet and Seniors would Pay NO DUES, and get uniform support similar to AFJROTC.

CAP launches Federal and State Campaigns to intergrate the Cadet Program as a Middle School Elective. Everytime I explain the Cadet Program to people they want it in their schools. Its the money to fund it thats the stumbling block.

Federal Grants for Startup with State participation later.

Emergency Services: We are heavy in good Aircraft and some Ground equipment, but lack in support for members on the front lines of SAR and Homeland Security. 

STOP the COME AND PAY and member BURN OUT.

End the Dues for Seniors too, pay Wing Commanders, and Region Commanders a full time Salary, but make them achieve specific goals, no more ticket punchers allowed.

The Middle School Program will have Salaried Instructors, just like JROTC.

CAP could become a National Guard type organization.

A National Commander that understands the above can get things done, but he would have to be able to explain to Congressman and Senators, the impossible tasking we have now under our existing budget.

[RiverAux]

Dnall, I understand how it works in practice here.  I'm asking for an analysis of whether the international treaty/agreement governing air search and rescue may superceed the general principle of local control over these issues. 

[Dragoon]

Honestly, I don't know why USAF hasn't turned peacetime SAR over to the Guard - it's not like there are active duty units beyond AFRCC to do the work.

First, that's simply not true.  Secondly, the Guard doesn't have the assests nation-wide,nor would enough assets be available for every state to have their own assets to support civil SAR.  The assets the Air Force does have are primarily for CSAR, but support civil SAR when they can.  Even then, DoD isn't the lead SAR agency.  

I haven't seen much use of USAF active duty assets in Civil SAR, except when USAF lost that A-10 a bunch of years back in Colorado. I have seen NG folks mobilized a fair number of times to tromp through the woods or fly helicopters in support of state searches.  Perhaps your experiences are different?

From what I've seen, combat and civil SAR are rather different skills sets (hard to fly grid searches while folks are shooting at you.)

Since CAP does 85% or so of the CONUS SAR USAF does, and since searches are normally confined to a state or two, AND since USAF doesn't uniform local presence in every state, giving the mission (and AFRCC) to the NGB would align stateside SAR closer to the local presence.  And either way, it's CAP doing the work.

[DNall]

1. Get every National Capital Squadron Congressman and Senator, in a meeting in Washington D.C.. Preferably a hotel conference room, focus on the numbers. The budget for CAP compared to the mission expansion and expectations is insane.

2. Present the real needs of CAP and a realistic Budget, not the Admin Budget we have now, with CAP on life support.

You do that & AF will slap you sideways. We take our NEEDS to the AF & try to explain how desperately we NEED them, then all the rest of the AF does the same thing, then the AF decides the priority order for the whole team to best serve the country that year & in the long term, they get a number of about where the budget is going to be & they make it fit. You CAN give CAP more money, if you take it away from combat training or something else in the AF. Do they have room maybe to make they happen, well possibly, but that would be their decisions wouldn't it, not CAP dictating to the AF what the priorities of the country are? The AETC commander jumped the process like that he'd end up retired at best & in prison at worst.

Also, you're overestimating what the Congressional Sq is. You're thinking those are CAP members in Congress, or devoted allies, and that's not the case. It's a cacus for anyone that's ever heard of CAP, and we toss out Col there is an honorary bribe to get them to sign the papers, but maybe 30 percent of them care remotely & that's not really even the total number that do care about CAP one way or another.

Plus, if you look at what we get now, and have gotten for 60 years, it is via the personal protection of thsoe people. They're trading bridges in their own districts to get your planes paid for. You want more? It has to be paying for something you can justify as a national priority commensurate with the AF needs.


Dragoon, AFRCC runs more than CONUS inalnd SAR, or which Inland AIR SaR is a smalller percentage. It also does the same function around the world in Combat zones or anywhere there are lots of military planes flying around - ie inappropriate to guard. They're also a reporting agency to the 1AF CAOC down at Tyndall. If a plane goes under radar on track to a target area for instance, 1AF wants to know from AFRCC if they're down or if they need to look for the hedge clipper packed w/ fertilizer. Back to Inland AIR SaR, that percentage we do is based on thousands of non-distress missions a year. With those drying up on the way to 2009 & on, that number is going to go WAY down. As I 'm sure you know, when it is a confirmed missing plane, lots of other resources show up also. When military assets (like AF helos or recon birds) are appropriate & able to get to the right place in a timely manner, then they get used over CAP. CAP is the garbage collector for Air SaR missions.

River, the treat specifies the rules under which the US will write the national SaR plan, the one is based off & compliant with the other. Nothing superceeds anything, and if it did the national SaR plan is the rule, the treaty is guidance for writing the rules.

The national SaR plan does now & always has specified STATES as the primary agency for SaR in their jurisdiction - I don't think you need the feds taking over the fire dept & responding to car wrecks. It's only when situations get beyond their capabilites that federal resources (CAP) are called in to help. Air Search, especially for a radio signal,  is one of those things that tends to start beyond their capability.

[flyguy06]

No river actually he's right abou tthis. States hold the authority for inland SaR, not feds. AFRCC is a COORDINATING agency whose only job is to take the high tech sat feed & give it to the state.

Air Force Rescue Coordination Center
As the United States' inland search and rescue coordinator, the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center serves as the single agency responsible for coordinating on-land federal SAR activities in the 48 contiguous United States, Mexico and Canada

[Hammer]

And they have no money, the money is in Congress. A Congressman that happens to be a CAP Colonel, is pure terror to an Air Force General and to a Secretary of the Air Force.

Who is that Congressman?

[JohnKachenmeister]

And they have no money, the money is in Congress. A Congressman that happens to be a CAP Colonel, is pure terror to an Air Force General and to a Secretary of the Air Force.

Who is that Congressman?

About half of them.  Everybody in the Congressional Squadron is a colonel.

[Hammer]

And they have no money, the money is in Congress. A Congressman that happens to be a CAP Colonel, is pure terror to an Air Force General and to a Secretary of the Air Force.

Who is that Congressman?

About half of them.  Everybody in the Congressional Squadron is a colonel.

Dang, so can anyone join or only Congressman?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Only Congressmen.  Get elected, make colonel.  Just like shake-and-bake chicken.

[Hammer]

Only Congressmen.  Get elected, make colonel.  Just like shake-and-bake chicken.

So what is NHQ's reason for doing this?

[lordmonar]

Only Congressmen.  Get elected, make colonel.  Just like shake-and-bake chicken.

So what is NHQ's reason for doing this?

butt kissing!

[ELTHunter]

For perspective though... CAP is not about doing missions. It's about serving the needs of the AF & using our excess capacity to help a short list of others within the bounds of our AF-centric specialized training. I know you're in Iowa where maybe there isn't a mosque down the road with 10k members, a couple terrorist cells thought to be operational in town, a refinery or chemical plant on every corner, major ship channel, 4 pro stadiums & 3 big colleges, all of which at have events on the same night in a 15 mile radius. You want to load up the plane, radios, & vans Congress bought us w/ people that get at least some of their training covered (tho you'd never notice) by congress=, and you want to go find Sally missing in the woods? Hey man, more power to ya. It feels good I know & it sure looks like you're doing some good. You know it's good to fight fires too, but they don't call me in to do that. If you swerve a little out of your lane here & there for the best then no big deal, but keep your eye on the centerline & know which lane you're supposed to be in. There's more important work for us to be doing as an org. I'm sure we can do both, but let's not get distracted by the little things.

D,

I know we're an AF asset and should be used as a force multiplier.  I also agree that we should be looking into HLS, airborne rad/chem monitoring and the other things we have discussed here.  However, as you pointed out, opportunities for missions do not exist in all areas of the country, and even where they do, they provide an opportunity for a relatively small number of people to participate.  Aircrews mostly.  I am a duel purpose ES guy, comfortable on both air and ground.  But there are a lot of ground pounders out there that want to participate but see the opportunity for ground missions reducing.  That is why we also need to remain involved in local ES, and expand our missions into missing person searches and other things that give our members an opportunity to contribute.

One of the frustrations I have witnessed with a lot of the ground team folks over the last four or five years is that they see CAP's focus more on things like SDIS and ARCHER where there are limited opportunities for them to be active.  This has caused several very good and compatant people I know to drop out of the organization.  Nobody wants to practice but never get into the game.

[Hammer]

Only Congressmen.  Get elected, make colonel.  Just like shake-and-bake chicken.

So what is NHQ's reason for doing this?

butt kissing!

It wouldn;t suprise me.  OTOH, what so they make Senators?  A CAP Brig Gen or a CAP Maj Gen?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Only Congressmen.  Get elected, make colonel.  Just like shake-and-bake chicken.

So what is NHQ's reason for doing this?

butt kissing!

It wouldn;t suprise me.  OTOH, what so they make Senators?  A CAP Brig Gen or a CAP Maj Gen?

Colonels, too.

The Capitol Building has got more colonels than a KFC franchise.

Regular or Extra Crispy?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Everbody interested in this topic should read the thread "Post Winter Storm Patrols" in the Emergency Services section.

Colorado Wing is under the Adjutant General, and (According to their chart) co-equal with the army and air guard. 

They operated seamlessly, starting out as a Title 36 mission, changing to a Title 10 mission, and returning to a Title 36 mission as the mission concentrated on locating livestock rather than people.

They directly coordinated, plane-to-plane with active duty and NG helicopters, set up a joint HQ with the state EMA, and communicated with local commercial stations to broadcast instructions to trapped motorists.

They had, but did not use, capability to communicate directly with law enforcement and military forces on the ground.  Use of direct air to ground communications was limited in their operations order to emergencies only, due to existing traffic on those frequencies.  Ground unit taskings were to go through EMA.

THAT'S WHAT I MEAN

When I say placing CAP wings under NG command makes CAP a flexible and agile partner, and why CAP must hew close to its military roots.

[Dragoon]

Everbody interested in this topic should read the thread "Post Winter Storm Patrols" in the Emergency Services section.

Colorado Wing is under the Adjutant General, and (According to their chart) co-equal with the army and air guard. 

They operated seamlessly, starting out as a Title 36 mission, changing to a Title 10 mission, and returning to a Title 36 mission as the mission concentrated on locating livestock rather than people.

They directly coordinated, plane-to-plane with active duty and NG helicopters, set up a joint HQ with the state EMA, and communicated with local commercial stations to broadcast instructions to trapped motorists.

They had, but did not use, capability to communicate directly with law enforcement and military forces on the ground.  Use of direct air to ground communications was limited in their operations order to emergencies only, due to existing traffic on those frequencies.  Ground unit taskings were to go through EMA.

THAT'S WHAT I MEAN

When I say placing CAP wings under NG command makes CAP a flexible and agile partner, and why CAP must hew close to its military roots.

Yup.  That's where I want to be.