So I'm slightly confused, and maybe it's my Army mind reading Air Force Terminology but what constitutes a Higher Command Patch in CAP?

So we were having a discussion of the placement of Patches on current uniforms and potential future uniforms (i.e. OCPs and a corporate Blue version of OCPs) and we were cross referencing the Air Force Instructions and the confusion centers on the CAP Command Patch being the Higher Headquarters or is it Group, Wing or Region.

Clearly, if you are assigned at Squadron, Group, Wing or Region, that Patch is your Unit Patch. So will it be like the Flight Suits, with the CAP Command Patch always being the Higher Command Patch...
 
- - or - -

Will Squadrons and Groups wear Wing Patches as the Higher Command Patch and Wings will wear Region Patches as the Higher Command Patch and Regions will wear the CAP Command Patch and those at National will wear only the CAP Command Patch?

Consensus during our discussion was, like the Flight Suits, the CAP Command Patch will always be the Higher Command Patch and any Subordinate Units (Squadron, Group, Wing or Region) will be the Unit Patch based on the CAP Members actual current assignment.

Any thoughts... constructive thoughts... are welcome.

I would think if its a member assigned to a squadron, they would wear the Wing patch and their squadron patch.  If group, wing and group.  If wing (full-time), wing and wing squadron patch.  If region, region and wing.  If national (full-time), command patch and home wing. 

Just my two cents. 

Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 11, 2022, 03:30:16 PMSo I'm slightly confused, and maybe it's my Army mind reading Air Force Terminology but what constitutes a Higher Command Patch in CAP?

So we were having a discussion of the placement of Patches on current uniforms and potential future uniforms (i.e. OCPs and a corporate Blue version of OCPs) and we were cross referencing the Air Force Instructions and the confusion centers on the CAP Command Patch being the Higher Headquarters or is it Group, Wing or Region.

Clearly, if you are assigned at Squadron, Group, Wing or Region, that Patch is your Unit Patch. So will it be like the Flight Suits, with the CAP Command Patch always being the Higher Command Patch...
 
- - or - -

Will Squadrons and Groups wear Wing Patches as the Higher Command Patch and Wings will wear Region Patches as the Higher Command Patch and Regions will wear the CAP Command Patch and those at National will wear only the CAP Command Patch?

Consensus during our discussion was, like the Flight Suits, the CAP Command Patch will always be the Higher Command Patch and any Subordinate Units (Squadron, Group, Wing or Region) will be the Unit Patch based on the CAP Members actual current assignment.

Any thoughts... constructive thoughts... are welcome.

First, please show me what page in CAPR 39-1 the term "Higher Command Patch" may be found? If you do a search, it's not in the reg anywhere, so maybe that's part of the source of confusion? So what is in the reg? For the ABU, 39-1 states:

5.1.1.1.2.2. Left Sleeve. One full color, wing/region/national patch may be sewn to the coat on the left sleeve ½ inch below the shoulder seam reflecting the individual's current unit of assignment. Wing Commanders may make wear of the wing patch mandatory for members of their wings. 

5.1.1.1.2.3. Breast Pocket (optional). One full color patch authorized in Attachment 4, with the exception of the Emergency Services Patch and Ranger tabs, may be sewn to the shirt centered on the lower portion of the breast pocket(s) between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket of ABU shirt, using the column currently authorized for the BDU. These patches are optional for wear.

Attachment 4 shows that an Organizational Patch (Squadron, Group), goes on the Right Pocket, therefore someone at Wing, Region or National would wear that patch on their left sleeve. Anyone below Wing would wear the Wing patch on their left sleeve, and an Organizational Patch on their Right Pocket. Note that below Wing level, the Wing and Organizational patches aren't mandatory unless the Wing Commander makes them so.

Are you still confused? If so, where is the confusion?

Quote from: Capt Thompson on May 11, 2022, 04:41:01 PMAre you still confused? If so, where is the confusion?

Because we are talking about something not in the Regulation, we are talking about possible future uniforms OCPs and and Corporate Blue OCP.

Referencing CAPR 39-1 and DAFI 36-2903 and other USAF Supplements
https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/News/Display/Article/2315431/ocp-guidance-updating-sept-1/,

and recent articles that state the patches are now reversed https://www.facebook.com/944thFighterWing.LukeAFB/posts/triviatuesday-answerocp-wear-update-effective-immediatelywe-will-now-place-the-s/10157009527914333/,

we were discussing placement of CAP Patches on a possible (likely) CAP OCP uniform.

Using the USAF Terminology "Higher Headquarters Patch" and/or "Higher Command Patch", which seems to be the same thing, what does that translate into using CAP Terminology?

Seeing that the sole required patch on the right breast of CAP Flight Suits is the CAP Command Patch, can we extrapolate that on any future CAP OCP uniform this will be the sole authorized Higher Headquarters/Command Patch authorized?

No patches are authorized on the front pockets of USAF OCPs (the improved hot weather versions don't have any front pockets at all), so we are discussing left/right sleeve pockets only.


So do you see the confusion now?


Right Sleeve              Left Sleeve
US Flag (Full Color)         
Unit Patch                            CAP Command Patch

--- or ---

Right Sleeve              Left Sleeve
US Flag (Full Color)
Squadron                            Group and/or Wing
Group                                 Wing
Wing                                   Region
Region                                CAP Command Patch
CAP Command Patch         CAP Command Patch (or First Air Force)
or Blank (HQ Staff)             CAP Command Patch

Common sense says the current blue/white Nametape, CAP Tape, Badges and Rank Insignia will continue to be used on any future OCP Blue-OCP uniform.

T-shirt and boot color "may" change (coyote) or could possible (likely) stay the same (black).

But patch placement is uncertain.

Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 11, 2022, 05:43:41 PM

Quote from: Capt Thompson on May 11, 2022, 04:41:01 PMAre you still confused? If so, where is the confusion?

Because we are talking about something not in the Regulation, we are talking about possible future uniforms OCPs and and Corporate Blue OCP.

Referencing CAPR 39-1 and DAFI 36-2903 and other USAF Supplements
https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/News/Display/Article/2315431/ocp-guidance-updating-sept-1/,

and recent articles that state the patches are now reversed https://www.facebook.com/944thFighterWing.LukeAFB/posts/triviatuesday-answerocp-wear-update-effective-immediatelywe-will-now-place-the-s/10157009527914333/,

we were discussing placement of CAP Patches on a possible (likely) CAP OCP uniform.

Using the USAF Terminology "Higher Headquarters Patch" and/or "Higher Command Patch", which seems to be the same thing, what does that translate into using CAP Terminology?

Seeing that the sole required patch on the right breast of CAP Flight Suits is the CAP Command Patch, can we extrapolate that on any future CAP OCP uniform this will be the sole authorized Higher Headquarters/Command Patch authorized?

No patches are authorized on the front pockets of USAF OCPs (the improved hot weather versions don't have any front pockets at all), so we are discussing left/right sleeve pockets only.


So do you see the confusion now?


Right Sleeve              Left Sleeve
US Flag (Full Color)         
Unit Patch                            CAP Command Patch

--- or ---

Right Sleeve              Left Sleeve
US Flag (Full Color)
Squadron                            Group and/or Wing
Group                                 Wing
Wing                                   Region
Region                                CAP Command Patch
CAP Command Patch         CAP Command Patch (or First Air Force)
or Blank (HQ Staff)             CAP Command Patch

Common sense says the current blue/white Nametape, CAP Tape, Badges and Rank Insignia will continue to be used on any future OCP Blue-OCP uniform.

T-shirt and boot color "may" change (coyote) or could possible (likely) stay the same (black).

But patch placement is uncertain.

So you're confused about what might happen with a uniform not yet authorized, ok got it now.

The command patch has only ever been worn on the flight suit, there's no precedent for it to be worn on a working uniform, so I can't see it moving over to OCP. OCP would likely have you either wearing a Wing or Organizational patch on the velcro on your shoulder, unless you worked for a higher echelon. Tapes and occupational (IC, GTM etc.) or aviation badges would stay in their current location, rank would move to the center tab, and everything else would go away. If there was a blue corporate OCP, you would probably still see the ES patch, maybe Rocketry and NCSA's.

Boots will stay black because that's just how we are, tshirts would go to the current OCP brown shirts.

That would be my guess, but none of us really knows until NHQ wills it into being.

Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 11, 2022, 05:43:41 PMBecause we are talking about something not in the Regulation, we are talking about possible future uniforms OCPs and and Corporate Blue OCP.

Quote from: Capt Thompson on May 11, 2022, 06:06:31 PMSo you're confused about what might happen with a uniform not yet authorized, ok got it now.

It's the CAP version of "Fan Fiction".

Quote from: baronet68 on May 11, 2022, 07:00:57 PM

Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 11, 2022, 05:43:41 PMBecause we are talking about something not in the Regulation, we are talking about possible future uniforms OCPs and and Corporate Blue OCP.

Quote from: Capt Thompson on May 11, 2022, 06:06:31 PMSo you're confused about what might happen with a uniform not yet authorized, ok got it now.

It's the CAP version of "Fan Fiction".

I'm writing a graphic novel entitled "Blue OCP," should be a best seller on the CapTalk charts

Quote from: Capt Thompson on May 11, 2022, 07:14:25 PM

Quote from: baronet68 on May 11, 2022, 07:00:57 PM

Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 11, 2022, 05:43:41 PMBecause we are talking about something not in the Regulation, we are talking about possible future uniforms OCPs and and Corporate Blue OCP.

Quote from: Capt Thompson on May 11, 2022, 06:06:31 PMSo you're confused about what might happen with a uniform not yet authorized, ok got it now.

It's the CAP version of "Fan Fiction".

I'm writing a graphic novel entitled "Blue OCP," should be a best seller on the CapTalk charts

How can I get an autographed copy?

Quote from: baronet68 on May 12, 2022, 03:39:26 AM

Quote from: Capt Thompson on May 11, 2022, 07:14:25 PM

Quote from: baronet68 on May 11, 2022, 07:00:57 PM

Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 11, 2022, 05:43:41 PMBecause we are talking about something not in the Regulation, we are talking about possible future uniforms OCPs and and Corporate Blue OCP.

Quote from: Capt Thompson on May 11, 2022, 06:06:31 PMSo you're confused about what might happen with a uniform not yet authorized, ok got it now.

It's the CAP version of "Fan Fiction".

I'm writing a graphic novel entitled "Blue OCP," should be a best seller on the CapTalk charts

How can I get an autographed copy?

Book signing at next year's NatCon, won't have it to press in time for this year

Just for your information and enlightenment here is the currant guidance as found in DAFI 36-2903 7 FEBRUARY 2020 Incorprorating Change 3 3 DECEMBER 2021.

5.2 The Operational Camouflage Pattern (OCP), Men's and Women's.

5.2.6. Patches. Patches will not extend past the boundary of the Velcro®.
5.2.6.1. Right Sleeve. A maximum of two patches may be worn.
5.2.6.1.1. The U.S. flag patch is mandatory and will be subdued using the Spice Brown color criteria (cloth) centered at the top of velcro and worn while in–garrison and deployed. [Note: Current subdued black and green (cloth) U.S. flags may be worn until 1 September 2020, then spice brown will be the only accepted version]. Infra-red U.S. flags are not authorized.
5.2.6.1.2. Organizational unit of assignment subdued spice brown color criteria patches are mandatory upon availability (non-unit entities such as Directorates, AF Elements are optional) and will be centered in the middle of the Velcro® area under the U.S. Flag. [Exception: For accessions, Airmen in training (e.g., USAFA, ROTC, OTS, BMT) the unit patch may be worn as directed by applicable commanders.] Note: Current subdued version of unit patch or no patch may be worn until the patch color conversion has been completed by the Institute of Heraldry. Wing commanders may authorize the wear of morale patches on Fridays or during special events. AFR and ANG commanders may authorize wear during weekend drills on Friday, Saturday or Sundays or during special events. Wing commanders will maintain a list of approved morale patches authorized to be worn within their wing. Morale patches must adhere to current subdued spice brown color scheme.
5.2.6.2. Left Sleeve. A maximum of two patches may be worn. ( The graduated commander's insignia does not count as one of two patches i.e. it may be worn in addition to two patches.)
5.2.6.2.1. The HHQ patch is mandatory except as provided in paragraph 5.2.6.2.4 The HHQ will be subdued using the Spice Brown color criteria (cloth) centered in the middle of the Velcro area. Higher Headquarters include but are not limited to the following organizations: Headquarters Air Force, Direct Reporting Units, Field Operating Agencies and MAJCOMs. Members of the ANG may wear the approved ANG patch or the approved gaining MAJCOM patch as authorized by their respective Adjutant General. Note: Current subdued version of HHQ patch or no patch may be worn until the patch color conversion has been completed by the Institute of Heraldry.

Quote from: Capt Thompson on May 11, 2022, 06:06:31 PM

Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 11, 2022, 05:43:41 PM

Quote from: Capt Thompson on May 11, 2022, 04:41:01 PMAre you still confused? If so, where is the confusion?

Boots will stay black because that's just how we are, tshirts would go to the current OCP brown shirts.

The "Boots will stay black because that's just how we are" does not necessarily ring true.  The ABU was the deviation from the norm and mainly due to cost, and some people's misguided idea that shining boots somehow makes a cadet better.

They can easily be changed to coyote brown.  Our full color patches make us distinctive enough.

I still think they would stay black, as every member already has black boots, and they would look a lot better with OCP's than they do with ABU's.

Quote from: Capt Thompson on May 16, 2022, 01:52:33 AMI still think they would stay black, as every member already has black boots, and they would look a lot better with OCP's than they do with ABU's.

While the blue/green ABU boots were unique to the Air Force, tan and coyote boots are becoming more and more common, especially the coyote as the Army, Air Force, USMC, Navy and Space Force are using a coyote boot of some kind, only the Coast Guard still uses a black boot. Tan is no longer authorized but many of us just dyed our tan boots coyote to save money.

Yes you can get black boots anywhere, but your are likely now to find coyote boots everywhere too.

While the assumption is "every member already has black boots", that may not be the case. The Polo Shirt and grey trousers only specifies black shoes not boots. it is reasonable to expect a new member to have black shoes but not black boots... but I digress.

I would hope they would authorize the option for both black and coyote boots so no current member has to run out and buy new boots nor should a new member, who is prior service, have to discard any serviceable coyote boots he or she may have either.

IMHO, the black boots are cheaper, and have a wider variety of styles and sizes.

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Quote from: SarDragon on May 16, 2022, 06:39:31 PMIMHO, the black boots are cheaper, and have a wider variety of styles and sizes.

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Coyote boots under 100 dollars

Still have a requirement to easily distinguished in low light levels from USAF/USSF members when wearing the USAF style uniform. The black boots are an easy way to do this.
And this is a USAF requirement.

Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 16, 2022, 09:02:17 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on May 16, 2022, 06:39:31 PMIMHO, the black boots are cheaper, and have a wider variety of styles and sizes.

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Coyote boots under 100 dollars

Are they available in sizes small enough for 13 yo girls? The black ones are.


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Quote from: PHall on May 16, 2022, 10:16:13 PMStill have a requirement to easily distinguished in low light levels from USAF/USSF members when wearing the USAF style uniform. The black boots are an easy way to do this.
And this is a USAF requirement.

Black boots are harder to see in low light levels than coyote boots... just saying. ;-D

BTW, why didn't CAP have a different boot requirement when both the USAF and CAP were wearing OG fatigues and BDUs? I understand the requirement for different tapes, badges and ranks but boots is just silly.

Quote from: SarDragon on May 16, 2022, 10:19:54 PMAre they available in sizes small enough for 13 yo girls? The black ones are.


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Child size coyote boots

Quote from: Shuman 14 on May 16, 2022, 10:26:30 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on May 16, 2022, 10:19:54 PMAre they available in sizes small enough for 13 yo girls? The black ones are.


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Child size coyote boots

Sure, you can find almost anything online these days.  However, there is a lot of convenience in being able to try 'em before you buy 'em (especially when fitting the fast-growing feet of teens). 

Yes, I know... online retailers typically accept shoe returns for wrong-sized orders that haven't been worn outside, but it's a hassle shipping shoes back and forth.

There are over 2,500 brick-and-mortar stores across the country (counting just the big chains Champs, Big5, Dicks, and Foot Locker) which all sell black boots in a variety of sizes.  They even have Brannock Devices at the ready to assist if you need to special order a boot size not currently in-stock. 

CAP's uniform and insignia sources are already quite limited so why paint ourselves further into the corner adopting a less readily-available boot color?