New senior member doesn't get what CAP is truly about

Started by CAPCom, March 31, 2022, 01:49:15 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

NIN

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

flyboy53

#21
All of the comments seem to lend that this individual is "invading" CAP and also seems to be a threat to others because he has educational credentials and a shotgun approach to the organization. There is a lot of criticism about teaching styles and interpersonal communications. Then the issue elevates to performance evaluations, where I am certain you will lose this individual.

Do you value this individual and what he can contribute or are we going to continue trashing him until he quits. Then you have a whole new issue because the individual may be prominent in the community and his negative experience could impact on the public perception of the unit.

The problem is just as much about the leadership mentoring this individual as it is the member seemingly being like a kid in a candy store with too many choices.

Where is the member mentoring where someone can help the individual focus on a certain area or specialty to get their feet wet until they are ready to accept more responsibility. Why hasn't someone recognized that the solution may be as simple as the same advice a thesis advisor makes to a grad student, requiring them to focus on a small part of a research plan instead of a broad picture that will certainly lead the student off track. Try making the individual focus on one area.

We as an organization do the same things to senior CAP members who return to active service from retirement. Technically, a retired member was still affiliated with the organization as some sort of card-carrying associate member. But if that individual completed the senior member training program, was an aircrew member, was a former group commander, holder of several masters ratings and was a wing staff officer at retirement; try finding him an assignment upon return to duty. Instead, the individual -- more than often -- is told "we don't know where you fit in." Nice right!

In the same way, instead of finding fault with this individual, we as members have a responsibility to guide a new individual down the path leading to his greatest success and most benefit for our organization. Every CAP member is critically important to the success of this organization. It is our duty help them find their purpose.


Eclipse

Quote from: flyboy53 on April 03, 2022, 12:14:02 PMThe problem is just as much about the leadership mentoring this individual as it is the member seemingly being like a kid in a candy store with too many choices.

You're not wrong, however that ship sailed.  This is the course correction.
Mentoring is literally the intention and purpose of a Form 40 conference, unfortunately all too
often it's not used until there is a problem.

CAP's primary MO is hoping people "get it" via osmosis - most do, but many don't,
and some refuse.

That doesn't change what needs to happen here.

Resetting a person's understanding of what CAP is, and more importantly isn't, and their
proper place in that puzzle isn't "finding fault", it's supposed to set them up for success,
however the hard-fast reality is that CAP isn't for everyone, and playing games because you're
concerned someone's FaceSpace group might get irked that they were shown the truth isn't going to
make the situation better for anyone.

Quote from: flyboy53 on April 03, 2022, 12:14:02 PMWe as an organization do the same things to senior CAP members who return to active service from retirement. Technically, a retired member was still affiliated with the organization as some sort of card-carrying associate member. But if that individual completed the senior member training program, was an aircrew member, was a former group commander, holder of several masters ratings and was a wing staff officer at retirement; try finding him an assignment upon return to duty. Instead, the individual -- more than often -- is told "we don't know where you fit in." Nice right!


Was is the keyword above.

A former member who comes out of retirement, who sits quietly for a while and listens and
learns what CAP has evolved into since they left, and how the "new" CAP can use them
is going to be welcome anywhere, but usually it's just a bunch of WIWAC, WIWAS, and
"I was doing ELT hunts by body-blocking with a crystal radio before you were born son, just
sign my SQTR, and also how do I get a CAP radio for my house?"

That or dragging someone out of retirement is the only way to keep the doors open
on a failing(ed) unit

There's a reason un-retirements have to be approved by NHQ, and I would argue they are not,
in any way, "associated" members, as they aren't even paying patron dues.  It's a nice way
to recognize long service, but nothing more or less, with the majority "retiring" because
either they have had a snootful of CAP, or are of an advanced age and are moving on to more
existential endeavors.

"That Others May Zoom"

CAPCom

#23
Quote from: Eclipse on April 03, 2022, 02:31:46 PMResetting a person's understanding of what CAP is, and more importantly isn't, and their
proper place in that puzzle isn't "finding fault", it's supposed to set them up for success,
however the hard-fast reality is that CAP isn't for everyone, and playing games because you're
concerned someone's FaceSpace group might get irked that they were shown the truth isn't going to
make the situation better for anyone.

This is exactly what will be happening.  A reset and clear expectations as well as a clearly outlined path to the promotion they want in order to help them become successful, of productive use to the squadron, and keep them from getting burned out and disappointed.

Quote from: flyboy53 on April 03, 2022, 12:14:02 PMThe problem is just as much about the leadership mentoring this individual as it is the member seemingly being like a kid in a candy store with too many choices.

Yes, that is what's happening: the new member is feeling like a kid in a candy store with too many choices.  Even though I warned them from the get-go they should focus, they ignored me.  What also happened unbeknownst to me is senior members in the unit putting the quick promotion carrot in front of them.  Telling them that auto-promotion to Captain was not only deserved because of their education but also compulsory and automatic, something that was supposed to happen regardless of what I decided.  I had already addressed the issue with the new member and told them the promotion was going to happen eventually but be on the back burner for a while.  The other senior members have continued to push the issue.  What ended up happening wasn't my fault, it was the fault of others in the squadron who thought they knew better than I and essentially set the new member in a place to feel as if they were being short-shrift.  Unit politics and manipulation at its worst.

Eclipse

Quote from: CAPCom on April 04, 2022, 01:19:33 AMWhat also happened unbeknownst to me is senior members in the unit putting the quick promotion carrot in front of them.  Telling them that auto-promotion to Captain was not only deserved because of their but also compulsory and automatic, something that was supposed to happen regardless of what I decided.

These people probably need a '40 as well.

Nothing makes things "easier" for a leader then other people making promises that
aren't theirs to keep.

"That Others May Zoom"

CAPCom

I hear what you are suggesting Eclipse and don't necessarily disagree.  But I don't want to use the f-40 has a hammer.  Which is how it will be perceived once word gets around that I've 40'd the new member and what it contains.  It'll happen in time, just not now.  Not yet.

flyboy53

#26
Quote from: CAPCom on April 04, 2022, 01:19:33 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 03, 2022, 02:31:46 PMResetting a person's understanding of what CAP is, and more importantly isn't, and their
proper place in that puzzle isn't "finding fault", it's supposed to set them up for success,
however the hard-fast reality is that CAP isn't for everyone, and playing games because you're
concerned someone's FaceSpace group might get irked that they were shown the truth isn't going to
make the situation better for anyone.

This is exactly what will be happening.  A reset and clear expectations as well as a clearly outlined path to the promotion they want in order to help them become successful, of productive use to the squadron, and keep them from getting burned out and disappointed.

Quote from: flyboy53 on April 03, 2022, 12:14:02 PMThe problem is just as much about the leadership mentoring this individual as it is the member seemingly being like a kid in a candy store with too many choices.

Yes, that is what's happening: the new member is feeling like a kid in a candy store with too many choices.  Even though I warned them from the get-go they should focus, they ignored me.  What also happened unbeknownst to me is senior members in the unit putting the quick promotion carrot in front of them.  Telling them that auto-promotion to Captain was not only deserved because of their education but also compulsory and automatic, something that was supposed to happen regardless of what I decided.  I had already addressed the issue with the new member and told them the promotion was going to happen but be on the back burner for a while.  The other senior members have continued to push the issue.  What ended up happening wasn't my fault, it was the fault of others in the squadron who thought they knew better than I and essentially set the new member in a place to feel as if they were being short-shrift.  Unit politics and manipulation at its worst.

Thank you for at least considering that something I said had merit. You can't get beyond unit level politics. The best you can do is establish policies to make sure it doesn't happen again and guide the individual down a path of usefulness to the organization.

The problem with a special qualification promotion is that they are used as a recruiting tool instead of for the merit that they are intended, and I say that "tongue in cheek," because my promotion to second lieutenant many years ago was because I held a third-class radio telephone license with an Element 9 endorsement -- which means that at one point I also held a technician rating in communications. The promotion isn't really automatic and should be at the recommendation of the commanders up the chain of command.

The problem is that what happens during a CAP career involves a lot of being in the right place at the right time and being prepared for that opportunity when it occurs -- which is all about training and qualifications. You may never use a certain specialty again, as in my case, except remotely as an aircrew member. As far as the promotion goes, it's now in the past. What you can do now is make the unit adhere to a promotion policy that is by the regulation.

As far as the individual is concerned, he needs to be focused on a specific specialty and, at the same time, I would suggest that he pursue a mission rating like aircrew, UAV, or ground team. There is enough in any of those areas to keep him occupied. Certainly, you can do that in the form of counseling, but I have found such instances as punitive. I would recommend, instead, that something mission-related is done to lend him some sort of credibility as an officer. He needs to understand that being an instant captain may also be permanent captain if he isn't ready to do those things that would advance his career and make him noteworthy as an officer.

CAPCom

"All of the comments seem to lend that this individual is "invading" CAP and also seems to be a threat to others because he has educational credentials and a shotgun approach to the organization. There is a lot of criticism about teaching styles and interpersonal communications. Then the issue elevates to performance evaluations, where I am certain you will lose this individual.  Do you value this individual and what he can contribute or are we going to continue trashing him until he quits. Then you have a whole new issue because the individual may be prominent in the community and his negative experience could impact on the public perception of the unit."

flyboy53, a few things I'd like to clear up regarding the above ^^^

No, I don't see them as "invading" CAP or the unit.  Nor do I see this person as a threat due to their education.  I have several degrees and a lot of education also.  They don't have any prominence in the community, either.  They are new to the area so public trashing of CAP and the squadron isn't going to happen.  Even if it did, I wouldn't worry.  I have been in this area for a very long time, have a good reputation and know a LOT of people.  Have a lot of strong and community-based connections through a wide-range of local, military, emergency-services, volunteer, political, arts-based, and social groups.  The same goes for a number of our long-term members.

I'm happy this person is part of the squadron.  My issue with them (aside from shopping for opinions from "higher ranking members" because they don't like my answer about their desired promotion and seem to think grade is an influence on my decision making) is that the whole picture changed once they became a member.  Before the application was approved in eServices, it was, "what can I do?".  Then when their membership was on the books it became (over and over again), "what can you do for me?".  This happened even after I spelled out very clearly to them what our unit's focus is, that I needed "workers", hands-on folks, new blood, new ideas, new perspective toward the unit focus.  That I want volunteers with a heart for volunteering.  I even quoted Jimmy Doolittle to make sure my 'servant leadership' message was clear ("there's nothing stronger than the heart of a volunteer").  So far I'm seeing and hearing me-me-me rather than "for the cadets" and "for the rebuilding of the squadron". 

The other thing I've learned about them is they have the mistaken idea that grade alone is important and those in lower grades must kowtow to the opinions and wishes of other members who have a higher grade.  They think grade is what gets respect in CAP.  This is also a HUGE problem when I know the new member is practically salivating to get the advanced promotion to Captain.

It's now clear they have serious misconceptions about a number of things CAP and not only need a reset, they need specific direction and framework to become team- and unit-focused, not self-focused.  Because they are a mature-in-age adult, I thought what we met and talked about when their membership started would be enough.  Clearly it's not and everything needs to be put on paper, something for them to reference in order to keep on track and on topic. 

That's fine, I don't mind.  I want them to succeed but to do it appropriately and "the CAP way".  Coming into CAP and thinking you will succeed right away and people will listen to you because you have a certain grade and education level, that you will make everything fantastic and produce outstanding work immediately, that you will "save" the unit and make it better because you have the right alphabet combo after your name -- all of that is wrong-headed.  But it makes sense this person feels that way because the work-environment culture they are used to (academia) believes all of the above and operates on that premise. 

New senior members who have not been cadets, even if they were/are military, have to learn "the CAP way" of doing things. This individual thinks they don't have to because, well... Ph.D.

Truth is, academic culture and its caste system is not CAP culture.  I now realize the new member believes the adults are the leaders of a composite squadron and their teaching and mentorship is to be showcased for cadets to learn from.  This person believes with all their heart that the academic model is what we do, and I now have to change their perception.  Until that perception changes or at least is on its way to visibly changing, they won't get the promotion.  They have to prove they understand what we're doing in this organization, in the unit, why we are doing it, and offer some real work-effort that proves they finally "get it" (even a fraction of getting it would make me feel better).  In other words, they have to prove their worth by being "smarter" not just promise it.  I mean, that's why we have the grade advancement structure we do in CAP, right?  It's a time of "learning CAP" and putting what you've learned to use for the benefit of CAP.  The advanced promotion "recruiting tool" can be a true stumbling block to the unwise and unsavvy.  I think this particular member proves it to be so.

Bottom line: I want them to succeed and will do everything I can to help them get there.  It's clear they can't accomplish success unsupervised and without close guidance.  Sadly, this is a case of all that education, yet not a lot of common sense and "smarts" put into practical application.  It's going to be a growing and new kind of learning experience for them.  I'll help guide but I'm not going to babysit and enable.  So, I guess they'll either sink or swim.

Jester

Quote from: CAPCom on April 04, 2022, 03:28:24 AMI hear what you are suggesting Eclipse and don't necessarily disagree.  But I don't want to use the f-40 has a hammer.  Which is how it will be perceived once word gets around that I've 40'd the new member and what it contains.  It'll happen in time, just not now.  Not yet.

Easy, form 40 everybody on an annual basis, starting with an initial one upon membership setting expectations. 

flyboy53

Quote from: CAPCom on April 04, 2022, 04:25:51 PM"All of the comments seem to lend that this individual is "invading" CAP and also seems to be a threat to others because he has educational credentials and a shotgun approach to the organization. There is a lot of criticism about teaching styles and interpersonal communications. Then the issue elevates to performance evaluations, where I am certain you will lose this individual.  Do you value this individual and what he can contribute or are we going to continue trashing him until he quits. Then you have a whole new issue because the individual may be prominent in the community and his negative experience could impact on the public perception of the unit."

flyboy53, a few things I'd like to clear up regarding the above ^^^

No, I don't see them as "invading" CAP or the unit.  Nor do I see this person as a threat due to their education.  I have several degrees and a lot of education also.  They don't have any prominence in the community, either.  They are new to the area so public trashing of CAP and the squadron isn't going to happen.  Even if it did, I wouldn't worry.  I have been in this area for a very long time, have a good reputation and know a LOT of people.  Have a lot of strong and community-based connections through a wide-range of local, military, emergency-services, volunteer, political, arts-based, and social groups.  The same goes for a number of our long-term members.

I'm happy this person is part of the squadron.  My issue with them (aside from shopping for opinions from "higher ranking members" because they don't like my answer about their desired promotion and seem to think grade is an influence on my decision making) is that the whole picture changed once they became a member.  Before the application was approved in eServices, it was, "what can I do?".  Then when their membership was on the books it became (over and over again), "what can you do for me?".  This happened even after I spelled out very clearly to them what our unit's focus is, that I needed "workers", hands-on folks, new blood, new ideas, new perspective toward the unit focus.  That I want volunteers with a heart for volunteering.  I even quoted Jimmy Doolittle to make sure my 'servant leadership' message was clear ("there's nothing stronger than the heart of a volunteer").  So far I'm seeing and hearing me-me-me rather than "for the cadets" and "for the rebuilding of the squadron". 

The other thing I've learned about them is they have the mistaken idea that grade alone is important and those in lower grades must kowtow to the opinions and wishes of other members who have a higher grade.  They think grade is what gets respect in CAP.  This is also a HUGE problem when I know the new member is practically salivating to get the advanced promotion to Captain.

It's now clear they have serious misconceptions about a number of things CAP and not only need a reset, they need specific direction and framework to become team- and unit-focused, not self-focused.  Because they are a mature-in-age adult, I thought what we met and talked about when their membership started would be enough.  Clearly it's not and everything needs to be put on paper, something for them to reference in order to keep on track and on topic. 

That's fine, I don't mind.  I want them to succeed but to do it appropriately and "the CAP way".  Coming into CAP and thinking you will succeed right away and people will listen to you because you have a certain grade and education level, that you will make everything fantastic and produce outstanding work immediately, that you will "save" the unit and make it better because you have the right alphabet combo after your name -- all of that is wrong-headed.  But it makes sense this person feels that way because the work-environment culture they are used to (academia) believes all of the above and operates on that premise. 

New senior members who have not been cadets, even if they were/are military, have to learn "the CAP way" of doing things. This individual thinks they don't have to because, well... Ph.D.

Truth is, academic culture and its caste system is not CAP culture.  I now realize the new member believes the adults are the leaders of a composite squadron and their teaching and mentorship is to be showcased for cadets to learn from.  This person believes with all their heart that the academic model is what we do, and I now have to change their perception.  Until that perception changes or at least is on its way to visibly changing, they won't get the promotion.  They have to prove they understand what we're doing in this organization, in the unit, why we are doing it, and offer some real work-effort that proves they finally "get it" (even a fraction of getting it would make me feel better).  In other words, they have to prove their worth by being "smarter" not just promise it.  I mean, that's why we have the grade advancement structure we do in CAP, right?  It's a time of "learning CAP" and putting what you've learned to use for the benefit of CAP.  The advanced promotion "recruiting tool" can be a true stumbling block to the unwise and unsavvy.  I think this particular member proves it to be so.

Bottom line: I want them to succeed and will do everything I can to help them get there.  It's clear they can't accomplish success unsupervised and without close guidance.  Sadly, this is a case of all that education, yet not a lot of common sense and "smarts" put into practical application.  It's going to be a growing and new kind of learning experience for them.  I'll help guide but I'm not going to babysit and enable.  So, I guess they'll either sink or swim.

Thank you for the clarification. The CAP Way isn't too uncommon if you've had experience on the boards of other not for profits or volunteer first responder organizations. It sounds cold, but you hold all of the cards in the case of this senior member and that includes the fact that he may be frozen at a certain rank until he gets with the program.

I'm a big believer in the senior member training program. I have seen it transform some people (my wife, the major), make them more effective as members, and influence their lives outside the organization. I have also seen others sink and eventually quit, which is tragic but the reality.

I would still make him focus on the senior member training program -- ALL OF IT -- and do pick something operational. Have him even sign up as encampment staff. You never know how someone else's influence may steer this individual in the right direction.

CAPCom

Quote from: flyboy53 on April 04, 2022, 05:35:20 PMI would still make him focus on the senior member training program -- ALL OF IT -- and do pick something operational. Have him even sign up as encampment staff. You never know how someone else's influence may steer this individual in the right direction.

I tried several weeks ago.  "Too busy this summer" was the response.  Mind you, they have the summer off.  That was another red flag.  If you're not willing to get into the trenches to do the hard stuff and only reach for the book/head knowledge while still thinking you deserve or are entitled to a special and early appointment to a higher grade without having actually done anything yet... that's a problem.  Hence, yet another reason why this whole misconception on their part of "grade = power and prestige" needs to be nipped in the bud ASAP.

LSThiker

Quote from: CAPCom on April 04, 2022, 05:49:58 PMI tried several weeks ago.  "Too busy this summer" was the response.  Mind you, they have the summer off. 

Not really getting into the issue, but this struck a chord with me.  I am an academic.  Serve with teaching undergraduate students.  I have heard this before (even from my Division Chief):  you get the summer off.  True, I do not have undergraduate students in the summer, but I do not get the summer off.  In fact, it is seriously busy.  This is the time for me to:  1) get vacation with my family as I do not have the freedom to take vacation during the academic calendar; 2) serve on professional committees; 3) attend conferences; 4) write grants; 5) write articles; 6) work on curriculum development; 7) spend time recruiting; 8) get caught up reading articles; 9) performing quality improvement projects; 10) work on other required tasks for my University; 11) the list continues.

heliodoc

Completely agree...About time CAP personnel stop bagging on professionals in Academia...myour own VolU isn't a true testament of education value. Until that seriously out of Beta testing and until most have have lived the the life of a teacher/ administrator spouse...and the the 3 months "OFF" doesn't hold water anymore...might want to investigate what some on academia do for a living

flyboy53

#33
Quote from: CAPCom on April 04, 2022, 04:25:51 PM"All of the comments seem to lend that this individual is "invading" CAP and also seems to be a threat to others because he has educational credentials and a shotgun approach to the organization. There is a lot of criticism about teaching styles and interpersonal communications. Then the issue elevates to performance evaluations, where I am certain you will lose this individual.  Do you value this individual and what he can contribute or are we going to continue trashing him until he quits. Then you have a whole new issue because the individual may be prominent in the community and his negative experience could impact on the public perception of the unit."

flyboy53, a few things I'd like to clear up regarding the above ^^^

No, I don't see them as "invading" CAP or the unit.  Nor do I see this person as a threat due to their education.  I have several degrees and a lot of education also.  They don't have any prominence in the community, either.  They are new to the area so public trashing of CAP and the squadron isn't going to happen.  Even if it did, I wouldn't worry.  I have been in this area for a very long time, have a good reputation and know a LOT of people.  Have a lot of strong and community-based connections through a wide-range of local, military, emergency-services, volunteer, political, arts-based, and social groups.  The same goes for a number of our long-term members.

I'm happy this person is part of the squadron.  My issue with them (aside from shopping for opinions from "higher ranking members" because they don't like my answer about their desired promotion and seem to think grade is an influence on my decision making) is that the whole picture changed once they became a member.  Before the application was approved in eServices, it was, "what can I do?".  Then when their membership was on the books it became (over and over again), "what can you do for me?".  This happened even after I spelled out very clearly to them what our unit's focus is, that I needed "workers", hands-on folks, new blood, new ideas, new perspective toward the unit focus.  That I want volunteers with a heart for volunteering.  I even quoted Jimmy Doolittle to make sure my 'servant leadership' message was clear ("there's nothing stronger than the heart of a volunteer").  So far I'm seeing and hearing me-me-me rather than "for the cadets" and "for the rebuilding of the squadron". 

The other thing I've learned about them is they have the mistaken idea that grade alone is important and those in lower grades must kowtow to the opinions and wishes of other members who have a higher grade.  They think grade is what gets respect in CAP.  This is also a HUGE problem when I know the new member is practically salivating to get the advanced promotion to Captain.

It's now clear they have serious misconceptions about a number of things CAP and not only need a reset, they need specific direction and framework to become team- and unit-focused, not self-focused.  Because they are a mature-in-age adult, I thought what we met and talked about when their membership started would be enough.  Clearly it's not and everything needs to be put on paper, something for them to reference in order to keep on track and on topic. 

That's fine, I don't mind.  I want them to succeed but to do it appropriately and "the CAP way".  Coming into CAP and thinking you will succeed right away and people will listen to you because you have a certain grade and education level, that you will make everything fantastic and produce outstanding work immediately, that you will "save" the unit and make it better because you have the right alphabet combo after your name -- all of that is wrong-headed.  But it makes sense this person feels that way because the work-environment culture they are used to (academia) believes all of the above and operates on that premise. 

New senior members who have not been cadets, even if they were/are military, have to learn "the CAP way" of doing things. This individual thinks they don't have to because, well... Ph.D.

Truth is, academic culture and its caste system is not CAP culture.  I now realize the new member believes the adults are the leaders of a composite squadron and their teaching and mentorship is to be showcased for cadets to learn from.  This person believes with all their heart that the academic model is what we do, and I now have to change their perception.  Until that perception changes or at least is on its way to visibly changing, they won't get the promotion.  They have to prove they understand what we're doing in this organization, in the unit, why we are doing it, and offer some real work-effort that proves they finally "get it" (even a fraction of getting it would make me feel better).  In other words, they have to prove their worth by being "smarter" not just promise it.  I mean, that's why we have the grade advancement structure we do in CAP, right?  It's a time of "learning CAP" and putting what you've learned to use for the benefit of CAP.  The advanced promotion "recruiting tool" can be a true stumbling block to the unwise and unsavvy.  I think this particular member proves it to be so.

Bottom line: I want them to succeed and will do everything I can to help them get there.  It's clear they can't accomplish success unsupervised and without close guidance.  Sadly, this is a case of all that education, yet not a lot of common sense and "smarts" put into practical application.  It's going to be a growing and new kind of learning experience for them.  I'll help guide but I'm not going to babysit and enable.  So, I guess they'll either sink or swim.

I get it; a no-win situation. I commend you for your patience. I saw plenty of examples like that in grad school and professionally, too. It's one of the reasons why I don't wear my education on my sleeve.

Not sure if the Form 40 is the end all in this situation. I would still document it, but I would prefer withholding a future promotion or an important assignment as a better solution. He will either quit, get it and conform, or transfer and be someone else's problem. Sink or swim. Either way, make him own it.

In the end, you are responsible to do what is best for your unit and the members you command, regardless of how unpopular that decision may be.

CAPCom

Quote from: LSThiker on April 04, 2022, 11:45:06 PM
Quote from: CAPCom on April 04, 2022, 05:49:58 PMI tried several weeks ago.  "Too busy this summer" was the response.  Mind you, they have the summer off. 

Not really getting into the issue, but this struck a chord with me.  I am an academic.  Serve with teaching undergraduate students.  I have heard this before (even from my Division Chief):  you get the summer off.  True, I do not have undergraduate students in the summer, but I do not get the summer off.  In fact, it is seriously busy.  This is the time for me to:  1) get vacation with my family as I do not have the freedom to take vacation during the academic calendar; 2) serve on professional committees; 3) attend conferences; 4) write grants; 5) write articles; 6) work on curriculum development; 7) spend time recruiting; 8) get caught up reading articles; 9) performing quality improvement projects; 10) work on other required tasks for my University; 11) the list continues.

That's you, not the individual in my unit.

CAPCom

#35
Quote from: heliodoc on April 04, 2022, 11:59:43 PMAbout time CAP personnel stop bagging on professionals in Academia

It seems you, along with LSThiker, missed the entire point while making this all about (each of) you while not even considering that your personal scenarios don't match the life scenario of the member I'm referencing.  Here's a clue: you're both off the mark in your analysis.  That's what happens when you make assumptions.

LSThiker

Quote from: CAPCom on April 05, 2022, 01:06:26 AM
Quote from: heliodoc on April 04, 2022, 11:59:43 PMAbout time CAP personnel stop bagging on professionals in Academia

It seems you, along with LSThiker, missed the entire point while making this all about (each of) you.

No I understand the discussion.  Quite frankly, it appears have been problems on both sides. Perhaps, his ego getting the best of him, not properly laying out expectations during the membership committee, not being upfront about how degrees and promotions work, and letting the issue go on too long instead of addressing it immediately and directly?  Since I was not there, I chose not to judge that.  My point was, just because "Too busy this summer" was the response.  Mind you, they have the summer off."  Unless you have direct experience of what this person does in the summer, just because a person has "the summer off", it may not really mean the summer off for him. Perhaps there is a health issue that he has chosen not to disclose and cannot take a week off for encampment. There are plenty of reasons why many SMs never go to summer encampment, so I would not be too judgy in his resistance in going.

CAPCom

Quote from: LSThiker on April 05, 2022, 02:08:33 AMUnless you have direct experience of what this person does in the summer, just because a person has "the summer off", it may not really mean the summer off for him.

Unless you know the person and know their situation, it seems to me you shouldn't be trying to provide explanations.  Not trying to be rude, but I know the individual, you do not.  They gave me a deeper excuse beyond being busy this summer, I just choose not to disclose it here.  I do and will likely continue to get "judgy" about SMs not doing encampment at least once when they have the time to do it.  Cadets have to do encampment in order to promote, I think senior members should be held to the same, or at the very least a similar, standard IF they have the ability to take the time.  That's my personal opinion, and I'm sure it will never become a thing in CAP.  It would be great if senior members could just show up for an overnight or two at encampment to get a feel for what goes on.  It's also the perfect place to see the nuts and bolts of a CAP activity where so many duty assignments are happening all at once, when the rubber really meets the road with cadet training, and how senior members are to let cadets lead cadets without interference.  It's an amazing endeavor that all members should see with their own eyes.  Senior members learn a lot while there just as cadets do.  And the usual players need a break from doing it time after time, year after year, too.  That won't change unless more senior members step up and just do it.  It's hard work, a hard week for all, but an invaluable experience for certain.  I really do wish it was required for seniors to have some on-site involvement just once in their membership tenure.

LSThiker

Quote from: CAPCom on April 05, 2022, 02:30:21 AMUnless you know the person and know their situation, it seems to me you shouldn't be trying to provide explanations.  Not trying to be rude, but I know the individual, you do not.  They gave me a deeper excuse beyond being busy this summer, I just choose not to disclose it here.

You are correct, I do not know. Hence why I am not providing explanations for him. What I am doing is judging your statements. If you are not disclosing the correct or complete information, then that is on you. We all do not know this individual but you, so I do not see a reason to ask for advice on the internet from strangers that are only familiar with your partial telling of the scenario. Anyway, your last response has a defensive tone, which usually means no real productive conversation can occur, so I will move on.

CAPCom

Quote from: LSThiker on April 05, 2022, 03:02:20 AMIf you are not disclosing the correct or complete information, then that is on you.

Why are you choosing to be suspicious, accusatory?  I gave synoptic information that was relevant to the situation being described.  I didn't feel it necessary to give personal information about the individual being discussed that had no relevance and would have been extraneous.

Quote from: LSThiker on April 05, 2022, 03:02:20 AMAnyway, your last response has a defensive tone, which usually means no real productive conversation can occur, so I will move on.

You were the first one to pull that card, a card I never did pull.  The "tone" you are seeing is laden with a lot of semi-amused head shaking and eye rolling, not defensiveness.  Please don't project.  But I do wish you a good evening.