Highest membership numbers this century was June of 2020???

Started by N6RVT, January 03, 2022, 06:08:57 PM

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etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on January 10, 2022, 01:18:52 AM
Quote from: etodd on January 09, 2022, 11:41:02 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 09, 2022, 11:20:33 PMWhy on earth doesn't NHQ provide have a secure payment gateway for adult memberships?


I suppose they don't want to lose the 3-4% in card fees. And if they raised the membership fee to cover it, so many would complain.

If they accept the card, there are still fees.

Thats was my point. If Hdqs gets paid via credit card, VISA or whoever gets a cut. Less revenue than with a check or money order.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Eclipse

Quote from: etodd on January 10, 2022, 03:21:00 AMThats was my point. If Hdqs gets paid via credit card, VISA or whoever gets a cut. Less revenue than with a check or money order.

True, and not related to my point.

NHQ has apparently allowed for payment by credit in the worst possible way from both a PPI and
cost perspective.

A national organizaiton that counts itself as part of a military force should be able to
negotiate NFP rates along with a secure method of payment, yet most wings are still force to
use PayPal or Stripe as the merchant, and NHQ apparently expects people to provide CC info
in the worst possible way for membership.

For that matter why can't the same system used for renewals be used for new adult members?

"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: undefinedIf paying by credit card, include the information listed below to process the application. The required information includes:

Type of Card - Visa, MasterCard or Discover

Card Number

Expiration Date

3 Digit Security Code on the Back of the Card

Name on Card

That's an exceptionally awful idea.

You couldn't dare me to write that down by telling me that I'll get a 30% investment return on that.

N6RVT

Quote from: baronet68 on January 07, 2022, 06:04:00 AM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on January 06, 2022, 01:29:27 PMOne other avenue to explore, homeschool co-ops. A few years ago our Squadron R&R Officer tapped into a local homeschool group and brought in 6 new Cadets, and they have continually brought in others to open houses...
(emphasis added)

This demonstrates the point that word of mouth will get more of what you already have. 

Which is not actually what we want.

Here is a quote from an active duty F15 pilot I was at an event with over the weekend.  This is as close to an actual quote as I can remember

Civil Air Patrol is our Volkssturm:
1.  They are all civilians
2.  They are really young or really old
3.  Their training is all over the place
4.  Their uniforms consist of whatever they can find and nobody ever matches anything
5.  They wear rank but nobody takes orders from anybody else
6.  Its all chaos and anarchy driven by egoes

I was a this event as a DHS employee.  This particular Major was unaware I did volunteer activity.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 10, 2022, 04:44:32 PM
Quote from: baronet68 on January 07, 2022, 06:04:00 AM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on January 06, 2022, 01:29:27 PMOne other avenue to explore, homeschool co-ops. A few years ago our Squadron R&R Officer tapped into a local homeschool group and brought in 6 new Cadets, and they have continually brought in others to open houses...
(emphasis added)

This demonstrates the point that word of mouth will get more of what you already have.

Which is not actually what we want.

Here is a quote from an active duty F15 pilot I was at an event with over the weekend.  This is as close to an actual quote as I can remember

Civil Air Patrol is our Volkssturm:
1.  They are all civilians
2.  They are really young or really old
3.  Their training is all over the place
4.  Their uniforms consist of whatever they can find and nobody ever matches anything
5.  They wear rank but nobody takes orders from anybody else
6.  Its all chaos and anarchy driven by egoes

I was a this event as a DHS employee.  This particular Major was unaware I did volunteer activity.

You left off the collective who are the Doomsdayers who believe that they're the small few to make it through the next Cold War because they know how to use a radio when the entire grid shuts down. Those are usually the ones who DHS starts to watch because they're driving around in camo with a bunch of radio equipment in their car talking about how they can tap into military communications lines...no, I'm serious. That's a thing.

Jester

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on January 10, 2022, 04:44:32 PM
Quote from: baronet68 on January 07, 2022, 06:04:00 AM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on January 06, 2022, 01:29:27 PMOne other avenue to explore, homeschool co-ops. A few years ago our Squadron R&R Officer tapped into a local homeschool group and brought in 6 new Cadets, and they have continually brought in others to open houses...
(emphasis added)

This demonstrates the point that word of mouth will get more of what you already have.

Which is not actually what we want.

Here is a quote from an active duty F15 pilot I was at an event with over the weekend.  This is as close to an actual quote as I can remember

Civil Air Patrol is our Volkssturm:
1.  They are all civilians
2.  They are really young or really old
3.  Their training is all over the place
4.  Their uniforms consist of whatever they can find and nobody ever matches anything
5.  They wear rank but nobody takes orders from anybody else
6.  Its all chaos and anarchy driven by egoes

I was a this event as a DHS employee.  This particular Major was unaware I did volunteer activity.

The sad part is he's not wrong, and any attempt to fix any of those issues leads to absolutely nothing.  Makes it hard to stick around, honestly.

heliodoc

Wasn't there a rumor BITD that Sen John McCain wanted to do away with CAP?

The F15 pilot wasn't far off the mark but then some AF officers come to CAP not RTFM, either and try toAF the the CAP

If rank went away, how many would stay?

Eclipse

Quote from: heliodoc on January 10, 2022, 06:45:38 PMWasn't there a rumor BITD that Sen John McCain wanted to do away with CAP?

Yes, as far back as 95-96.

He characterized is issue as being one of the principle that DOD
budgets should be for defense only, and programs like CAP should be funded elsewhere,
tweeting as recently as 2014 that CAP was getting a ~$7MM dollar bump while the USAF
budgets were being cut.

While probably not fair, many view(ed) the good Senator as "anti-CAP" because of
that, while the truth, as it generally is, is more complicated.

"That Others May Zoom"

PHall

Quote from: Eclipse on January 10, 2022, 06:59:18 PM
Quote from: heliodoc on January 10, 2022, 06:45:38 PMWasn't there a rumor BITD that Sen John McCain wanted to do away with CAP?

Yes, as far back as 95-96.

He characterized is issue as being one of the principle that DOD
budgets should be for defense only, and programs like CAP should be funded elsewhere,
tweeting as recently as 2014 that CAP was getting a ~$7MM dollar bump while the USAF
budgets were being cut.

While probably not fair, many view(ed) the good Senator as "anti-CAP" because of
that, while the truth, as it generally is, is more complicated.


One of Senator McCain's "things" was waste in the DoD budget. Stuff like the $500 hammers and such.
CAP got a bump in their authorization because of some good old politicking. CAP didn't like having their budget cut so they went to their friends in congress and got the money added back in.

heliodoc

CAP not too far behind in wild spending or "beta testing" the different application for aerial photography

 ARCHER PHYLLIS ARGUS VIRB and now Aero something

There's a reason for contract aerial photography...

We haven't controlled either ...the $500 dollar hammer nor the next great thing to hang on a CAP airframe

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Eclipse on January 10, 2022, 06:59:18 PM
Quote from: heliodoc on January 10, 2022, 06:45:38 PMWasn't there a rumor BITD that Sen John McCain wanted to do away with CAP?

Yes, as far back as 95-96.

He characterized is issue as being one of the principle that DOD
budgets should be for defense only, and programs like CAP should be funded elsewhere,
tweeting as recently as 2014 that CAP was getting a ~$7MM dollar bump while the USAF
budgets were being cut.

While probably not fair, many view(ed) the good Senator as "anti-CAP" because of
that, while the truth, as it generally is, is more complicated.

So is CAP better served being a part of the Homeland Security budget?

That's just a really general question, and I'm not expecting any logical/rational response. Merely a thought point.

I think a question that stands here—when it comes to discussion about military budgeting—is how wide roles have become across a number of government programs, to include CAP's.

First off, the Department of Defense is the Constitutionally prescribed and afforded executive military organization. We can term "War Department," or "Defense," or whatever. Let's just go with military as that distinction.

The Department of Homeland Security can also be regarded, in some capacities, as a defense organization as well in regard to domestic security versus the DOD's "abroad" security (military).

Now, CAP is clearly not a "military" arm of the U.S. government, not even as a #TotalForce auxiliary to the military. It's a domestic organization that conducts humanitarian operations, assists in search and rescue, and only in some instances performs national security support.

Our military's missions have greatly expanded over time, to include broadening the "security" and war nature of the Armed Forces to include much the same: humanitarian, SAR, and domestic security (repel insurrection, etc.). We see this most often through state national guards and instances of federal activation of guards and reserves components.

So CAP is much more like a national guard domestic services element than it is an active duty "military" element. And it really acts more as a DHS auxiliary than it does a USAF auxiliary, albeit through Air Force funding and some operational support that DHS couldn't as easily provide, if at all, without going through other federal channels and outside of the DHS network (i.e., DOD facility usage).

One of the areas where, I think, we get ourselves wrapped around is trying to separate our differentiation between what the "Air Force does" versus what "CAP does." So to be clear: The Air Force extends its non-combat missions through non-combatant forces who are "trained to fight" but serve a primary role (in their assignment) to conduct humanitarian, SAR, etc. operations. But CAP has an identity crisis in that many members continue to believe that CAP is anything less than the #TotalForce in its entirety, which is globally untrue. CAP was briefly a combatant force, but that was before any official establishment of the U.S. Air Force and its combatant and non-combatant arms.

So what's left for CAP in its image? Well, for one, CAP has been much behind the modern military, and DHS alike, its in acquiring and application of technology, training programs, and mission outreach. Due to funding and manpower/resourcing constraints, CAP has always been well behind the curve of development and adaptation to an ever-evolving "modern world of things" and continues to seek dated methods to teach, train, and deploy. Look at the aspect of our member corps: We continue to talk about how 90% of the finds/saves are the result of a team of individuals using cellphone triangulation to identify where a missing person was last positioned, whilst we have a number of members who don't even use cellular-based email on a smartphone let alone have WiFi at home.

We're faced with a member recruitment and retention issue where, we as leaders, are faced with the policy of inclusivity of all creatures/beings, which results in needing to expand our local activities to include severely outdated resources and practices so that everyone can be included and that they can contribute is whatever way they see fit and not what I need them to be capable of. We're hyper-focused on making sure that we have this option for that group, and for people who can't do this then they should be able to login instead using that, and when they can't do that, I've got another system over here...

It's chaos, and it's nonsense.

I can't even believe that, in an organization of 60,000 members, we don't have a common email address. We've got people who have three different types of emails depending on how many roles they have in CAP and at what echelon. It's madness.

We're beyond disorganized in our administrative programs. We have no clear vision on what it is that we do as an organization. And I'll guess that at least 25% of our member roster doesn't actually participate or contribute on any basis, let alone "actively" (which we have been trying to define over the past how many comments/threads)?

Eclipse

^^^ Agree with everything here, sadly it's too verbose for a t-shirt.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 11, 2022, 06:08:25 PMSo is CAP better served being a part of the Homeland Security budget?

This was, of course, a big conversation in the immediate Post-911 government shuffle.

Many people believed (some still do) that moving CAP to HLS would mean an increased visibility
and posture, along with more operational activity.

I argued at the time the proposal was prevalent, and still do, that an HLS move would
be the end of CAP.

The cadet program still exists as a "wink and nod" recruiting arm of the military, especially
the Air Force.  NHQ been working hard the last 5-10 years to demilitarize itself in favor
of whatever way the wind is blowing, but no one can argue that this is still the case.

The CP would have zero place in HLS, which would could mean that the choice would be shut it down,
radically change it, or split the org to leave the CP as the USAF auxiliary.  None of those
choices are workable, and would result in nearly immediate attrition as people either
quit altogether, or are forced to decide between the new organizations, knowing full well
that the majority of the actual membership is dual-hatted (if not worse).

You can't have ES without the CP people, and you can't have CP without the ES people.

But worse, if CAP were forced to become a performing partner in an actual HLS role, without the CP as a
"well we do this too" backup, the lack of clothes on the emperor would be obvious day 1.

"That Others May Zoom"

baronet68

Topic detour...


Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 11, 2022, 06:08:25 PMI can't even believe that, in an organization of 60,000 members, we don't have a common email address. We've got people who have three different types of emails depending on how many roles they have in CAP and at what echelon. It's madness.


I agree that CAP's variety of "official" email domains is excessive.  But you wouldn't believe the amount of outcry and pushback I've personally seen at squadron and wing levels whenever someone raises the issue of using "official" email accounts for CAP business.

If you're doing business working for the American Red Cross, Microsoft, or the USAF you're required to use an @redcross.org, @microsoft.com, or @us.af.mil email account.

However, when the idea is floated that CAP members should use an official CAP email address for CAP business... people seriously lose their $h!t.  I've personally heard people scream, "No!!! I will only use my personal AwesomeVFRPilot1955(at)aol(dot)com address!!!"

My brain nearly exploded a few years ago when a cadet emailed several people in their squadron asking about an upcoming color guard event at a Triple-A baseball game. 
Her email address was simply vulgar and involved velvet, a feline household pet, and her year of birth.

Neither her, nor her parents, seemed to understand why that wasn't the best email address to use (at all, never mind for CAP business). 
Michael Moore, Lt Col, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

Luis R. Ramos

QuoteFrom Eclipse:

The CP would have zero place in HLS, which would... mean that the choice would be shut it down, radically change it, or split the org to leave the CP as the USAF auxiliary. None of those choices are workable, and would result in nearly immediate attrition...

If this happens, I do not think that CP would be shut down. I think it would continue, in a similar way to the Explorer Law Enforcement. This would imperil the viability of our current CP. I do think it would severely impact our Aerospace Education program, reducing funds to acquiring the airplanes currently given by the USAF, impacting our access to airports for Orientation Flights by reducing or curtailing access.

I do agree with Eclipse that moving to DHS oversight will severely cripple CAP, or change it in such a way that may be as of itself a threat to CAP survival.

Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on January 11, 2022, 10:11:50 PMIf this happens, I do not think that CP would be shut down. I think it would continue, in a similar way to the Explorer Law Enforcement. This would imperil the viability of our current CP. I do think it would severely impact our Aerospace Education program, reducing funds to acquiring the airplanes currently given by the USAF, impacting our access to airports for Orientation Flights by reducing or curtailing access.

I'm meh on this. I think we need to have some consideration here that the majority of CAP Aerospace does not come through the Air Force, nor does it come through actual aircraft flight.

The majority of any cadet's aerospace exposure occurs on a weekly meeting night from whatever lesson plan the squadron AEO devised. Sure, there are options to include funded STEM kits, but many units don't even use them, or at least not recycle their use once the associated lessons are completed. Most units find an interesting topic (at least to someone, usually the AEO) and present it without any involvement outside of the unit.

O-Flights for that matter have a great value in recruiting. I wouldn't say that they're going to preserve retention. A cadet who joins at 12-years-old may "use up" their O-Flights by the time they're 13 or 14. So what retains them for the remainder if it isn't airplane rides?

I think you'd see an impact to members if a MEMO went out tomorrow and said, "No more cadet O-Flights, ever." But go forward another 5 years (as I always throw that out there). Nobody is the wiser. The Cadet Program would not disappear just because there aren't any airplane rides anymore.

QuoteI do agree with Eclipse that moving to DHS oversight will severely cripple CAP, or change it in such a way that may be as of itself a threat to CAP survival.

I agree as well. It's especially not something that should ever be considered as a flip-of-the-switch, either. I think this is just a case where we need to understand what the role of the Cadet Program is and what it isn't, and consider the changes that we should continue to make to it over a long duration.

At the end of the day, the Cadet Program is a leadership program, nothing more or less. Every else is extracurricular to it. The one thing that the program should never lose is the emphasis of develop youth as leaders. If you lose that, you lose the value of the program and the buy-in from every parent who signs their kid up.

Retention requires fun, exciting, challenging, and purposeful activities.

heliodoc

If ES is "extracurricular"   then maybe it ought find a home in a true SAR organization or be blended under the FEMA 508 program if CAP is truly payin attention with established standards for Type I-IV organizations with real Position Taskbooks that align with everything else.  Hard to explain CAPs SQTR system because previous ES Directors prior to me failed to explain the program at the Wing level.....I had to do it at my place of employment cuz some CAPers were trying to use SQTRs as PTB items...indicating many in CAP still don't understand the ICS system for whatever reason(s).

BTW CAP is not the only game in town when it come to AE

Eclipse

Despite the rhetoric, I've never considered AE to be a separate mission in the way
it is marketed.

It can't stand on its own, and it has always struck me as someone's cool
idea that CAP has three missions based on the CAP prop having 3 blades.

It just smacks of a committee decision.

In a related piece of data, it's remarkable, actually how many members,
cadets especially, join the Civil Air Patrol and have zero interest in flying,
and tangential to that, the far too many members, especially cadets, who join,
succeed, and leave CAP never having even seen a CAP aircraft in person.

I think this is less of an issue today, but it's non-zero.

"That Others May Zoom"

N6RVT

Quote from: baronet68 on January 11, 2022, 07:57:20 PMTopic detour...
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 11, 2022, 06:08:25 PMI can't even believe that, in an organization of 60,000 members, we don't have a common email address. We've got people who have three different types of emails depending on how many roles they have in CAP and at what echelon. It's madness.

I agree that CAP's variety of "official" email domains is excessive.  But you wouldn't believe the amount of outcry and pushback I've personally seen at squadron and wing levels whenever someone raises the issue of using "official" email accounts for CAP business.

California did that, everybody got a @cawgcap.org email address.  You got a @cawg.cap.gov address if you were involved in upper level stuff, but it was actually just an alias to the same mailbox.  I think whatever system we have has expanded to all of Pacific Region at this point, as the CAWG IT guy moved up to PCR.

etodd

As much as we do with FEMA, I would think it would be a better option for us to move into than HLS.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

PHall

Quote from: etodd on January 12, 2022, 02:20:19 AMAs much as we do with FEMA, I would think it would be a better option for us to move into than HLS.


FEMA and the Cadet Program are probably not a match made in heaven.