List of CAP locations where we have permanent facilities (leased or owned?)

Started by Holding Pattern, November 17, 2021, 11:07:58 PM

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Holding Pattern

Is there a way to get a list of which squadrons have their own facilities, be they leased or owned?

etodd

Does a Squadron actually ever own anything? If you donate anything to a Squadron ... can't the Wing take it away? (Technically?)

(Point being, some Squadrons may not advertise what they have. LOL)
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Eclipse

Quote from: etodd on November 18, 2021, 01:45:56 AMDoes a Squadron actually ever own anything? If you donate anything to a Squadron ... can't the Wing take it away? (Technically?)

So you think it's reasonable to suggest a Unit could be hiding the fact that
they own/lease/use a building? And it would only come to light when someone from 1/2 way
across the country asks about it?

Also, Please, by all means, run to the keyboard and give us the details about
"...that one time Wing was super-mean to a unit and stole all their pizza money for no reason..."


In regard to Real Estate, whether it be owned, leased, or "used"...

CAPR 174-1, Page 27:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R_174_001_26_Dec_2012_C3_ICL_1904_4D4DD57912238.pdf
"6-10. Annual Real Property Inventory. Proper management and control of real property requires
periodic inventory. Each CAP region/wing/unit will perform an inventory of all real estate and
facilities concurrently with the annual inventory.
Reconcile all CAP owned, leased, rented or occupied
real property against the records in the ORMS real property module. Resolve any discrepancies noted
during the inventory and, where necessary, update ORMS to reflect these changes. Accuracy is critical
as it affects CAP insurance premiums and coverage. Records are subject to audit during survey audits
and compliance inspections. "


This information is available from National Headquarters if you have a legitimate need for it.

Contact info here:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/members/cap-national-hq/logistics-mission-resources

"That Others May Zoom"

arajca

Umm, actually it's not available from National. They only have information on NHQ owned/managed/leased property. I asked due a situation that cropped up in my wing.

JohhnyD

Quote from: arajca on November 18, 2021, 02:33:27 AMUmm, actually it's not available from National. They only have information on NHQ owned/managed/leased property. I asked due a situation that cropped up in my wing.
My unit has a four-decade-long arrangement with a foundation that provides hangars for two squadrons, including maintenance!

SarDragon

The Wing Logistics Officer should have sufficient access to ORMS to dig out the needed info.

I have filled out the Annual Real Property Inventory, and, as I recall, it's an SUI item. It's been a while, though.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

NIN

Quote from: etodd on November 18, 2021, 01:45:56 AMDoes a Squadron actually ever own anything? If you donate anything to a Squadron ... can't the Wing take it away? (Technically?)

(Point being, some Squadrons may not advertise what they have. LOL)
Can we not propagate that tired old meme?

"Don't put anything you want to keep on the books,  wing will just take it."

No.

I have seen circumstances where a unit was donated something that had to be tracked as an asset (these days it might be a really expensive computer, for example). Later, that asset fell in to disuse and someone said "hey can you guys use this at group/ wing?" and it was transferred. Or the asset reached the end of its life and was retired,  and someone got the impression "wing took it."

The one I've seen happen more frequently is that the donation source of the asset isn't clear in ORMS. The current commander, four times removed from the original donation,  says "That old DF? Yeah, we haven't used that in years and we're tired of moving it and inventoring it. If wing wants it,  they can have it!" The DF gets transferred. Eventually,  Lt Jerry, the guy who's been in the unit since airplanes had two wings (one on the top, one on the bottom) and can tell you about every single thing the unit has done in the last 50 years,  hears that the DF was "taken by wing." Well, that DF was a squadron heirloom, purchased by funds donated to the unit by the John F. Curry Foundation, and now Jerry is telling everybody "See! Don't let anything get donated to the squadron! Wing will just take it!"

No.

I have a unit that was donated a substantial sum of money over the last year or so to get an sUAS program off the ground (pun intended). It's taken some time for that unit to get things going. So about half of the total of all the wing's squadron's assets is sitting there in one unit's account, doing nothing. 

As you might expect,  I'm rubbing my hands together at every wing finance committee meeting scheming how we're going to swoop in and take this chunk of change away from the squadron so we can blow it at wing HQ. NOT! That is a squadron asset, and unless the squadron is deactivated, it stays at the squadron.

Back to the Real Property: all of that is absolutely tracked in ORMS. Every year units are required,  as part of the annual inventory, to complete a "real property survey" which captures what owned,  leased, borrowed or donated facilities CAP units use. Example: We own our Wing HQ building,  but lease the land it sits on.  That building, and the lease,  are in ORMS.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Shuman 14

Quote from: NIN on November 18, 2021, 12:24:48 PMAs you might expect,  I'm rubbing my hands together at every wing finance committee meeting scheming how we're going to swoop in and take this chunk of change away from the squadron so we can blow it at wing HQ.

Funny, I pictured it more as the right pinky finger being held inverted at the corner of your mouth.


"Colonel. COLONEL Evil. I didn't go to an Evil Military Academy for four years to be called MISTER Evil." :-P
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Spam

Quote from: NIN on November 18, 2021, 12:24:48 PM
Quote from: etodd on November 18, 2021, 01:45:56 AMDoes a Squadron actually ever own anything? If you donate anything to a Squadron ... can't the Wing take it away? (Technically?)

(Point being, some Squadrons may not advertise what they have. LOL)
Can we not propagate that tired old meme?

"Don't put anything you want to keep on the books,  wing will just take it."

No.

I'm glad you've had a positive experience, NiN. Yet, sadly these sort of situations have in fact happened within CAP, some successful and some only attempted. Being watchful isn't a bad thing and paranoia is a survival trait when, in fact, there really ARE people out to get you and yours (because they Know Better).

R/s
Spam

Eclipse

Quote from: NIN on November 18, 2021, 12:24:48 PM"...all of that is absolutely tracked in ORMS. Every year units are required,  as part of the annual inventory, to complete a "real property survey" which captures what owned,  leased, borrowed or donated facilities CAP units use. Example: We own our Wing HQ building,  but lease the land it sits on.  That building, and the lease,  are in ORMS..."

This.

No idea why NHQ would tell people otherwise, but the RPS hasn't been a paper form for quite a while,
it's all in ORMS, and of course NHQ can report against it if they want to.

"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

Bear in mind that many units don't have contractual arrangements with their host facility; somethings for better and sometimes for worse.

What's lacking when there is no legal arrangement is the accountability and next step in the event of damage. Who pays? Whose insurance covers this? What if the building floods...is CAP liable for the property? What property, at that? If it's not listed in ORMS, how do you know?

Another issue that arises is that much of a unit's supply is that the material items are often donated to the unit from an incumbent member, or that member purchases and item and lets the unit use it; but the unit doesn't actually consider it squadron property. What tends to happen here is that people can use, damage, throw away, upgrade, and pass on the item to anyone else they so choose because there is no paper trail, and it's not CAP inventory. But that also opens up the matter of "Hey, you damaged my stuff!"

There are some units that meet at Location A during the summer and Location B during the winter, and then Location B suddenly says, "We can't have you guys meeting here anymore." No advanced notice. No terms and conditions. Now what? You're kinda stuck finding a new place pretty darned quick. But, on the plus side, you can settle into your next place without going through the legal process, see how it works, and move on if it's not the best site.

A lot of units also don't have storage space in the building, so materials often live in someone's basement, garage, or back of their car. I'm guilty of that one. I couldn't say how long I had a backseat full of water cans, litter, and power cords. Who do they even belong to? No idea. But it was more convenient to haul it around and take it to wherever we were going to meet than to pack it away in a storage closet filled to the top. Not every squadron has cabinet space.

I had a case some time ago where I contacted our Logistics POC to ask what I do with some old computer hardware (don't even know where it originated; I think it was donated and someone put it into ORMS). I was suggested to ship it to him to dispose of. I asked who pays for the shipping cost; the squadron apparently. I said I'd rather just throw it out. They wanted to repurpose it. I said that the unit wasn't going to pay for something that we literally don't use and are willing to just throw away. He said that it's CAP property and we need to return it. So we mailed it back and I emailed our Finance POC and told them to bill it to Logistics and to make sure that it doesn't come out of the unit account. It became this back-and-forth about who pays for $100 worth of shipping. But reasons like that add to why we don't want to put every little inventory item into ORMS. It's annoying and inconsistently managed.

I'll leave that there for the Wing staffers on the forum to remember what it's like at the squadron echelon and how administrative processes can sometimes be fairly unwelcoming for units that don't have luxurious leased facilities or vast cash flows.

Eclipse

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on November 18, 2021, 05:57:38 PMWhat's lacking when there is no legal arrangement is the accountability and next step in the event of damage. Who pays? Whose insurance covers this? What if the building floods...is CAP liable for the property? What property, at that? If it's not listed in ORMS, how do you know?

Making this worse is NHQ's traditional refusal to sign "Hold Harmless" agreements when the issue of
loaned space comes up.

And some landlords are happy enough to let "your kids use the empty office", but won't give a lease because they
want to be able to kick CAP without notice - I've had far too many conversations about that with both sides of the house.

NHQ had mad some noise a while back about brick-and-mortar initiatives and support for units, but
for the most part the assumption is that somehow these things just "happen".

"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Eclipse on November 18, 2021, 06:04:27 PMSome landlords are happy enough to let "your kids use the empty office", but won't give a lease because they
want to be able to kick CAP without notice - I've had far too many conversations about that with both sides of the house.

I'm quite familiar with that one...not from personal experience, but I've been close to that. I've seen a number of units be "removed" from their meeting space. This happened a lot last year when a number of units found new meeting locations during their Phase 1 and Phase 2 periods.

Actual Scenario:
A unit used to meet at a school, but because of COVID-19 precautions/protocols, they were no longer allowed to occupy that space on weeknights. So, the unit moved to a church who welcomed them because they were holding virtual masses and supported the youth initiative to keep kids active during the "virtual era" of the universe. Well, once the church started to resume in-person mass, the unit was no longer able to be accommodated on the host facility's schedule. It was a blessing in disguise because they ended up relocating to a much larger facility at an airport; now they can conduct their O-Flights during meetings and actually get outside much more often given the farmland-type property in lieu of the urban footprint. But...who's to say the airport won't kick them out either.

I've seen a few units talk with their host facilities about writing in clauses for eviction notices (e.g., "Must have at least 60 days advance notice to disallow the meeting space to be used"). It usually creates a lot of animosity with the facility, and it starts to turn into writing in everything, including the kitchen sink, into the contract. "Allowed to place three cabinets on the north wall...may not use vending machines," etc.

There are many of goods that can come from a contract for space, especially if a unit is paying for space; terms and conditions tend to apply. There are also many bads that come from a contract, often in the case of resentment or annoyance by the host facility.

Imagine a facility saying, "We'd love to have you guys come operate out of here on Tuesday nights! Nobody uses the space. It's great advertising for us. It's great for you. Win-win. Just turn off the lights when you leave." Yes, there are some ups and downs (for better or worse sometimes). Now imagine that the CAP squadron goes back to that building manager and says, "Excellent! We really appreciate it! So let's talk about where we put some of our stuff. We have some very high-value equipment here. It needs to be locked away. Do you have any room for us to put a storage cabinet in? Oh, and we need a key. We also need some space on Saturdays, too. Our legal office 400 miles away also has to look at our arrangement and give the blessing. You understand, right?"

You have Cub Scouts meeting on Sundays, the Rotary Club on Wednesdays, CAP on Thursdays...and we're the one that is coming in with all this red tape.

It makes sense for Emergency Services staging areas, hangar space, etc. But people willing to "share some space for a bunch of kids" start to get iffy with the bureaucracy coming their way.

Eclipse

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on November 18, 2021, 09:24:20 PMYou have Cub Scouts meeting on Sundays, the Rotary Club on Wednesdays, CAP on Thursdays...and we're the one that is coming in with all this red tape.

This, frankly, is a core failing of CAP across the board.

The reasons for it, and the evolution of the situation are understandable - no one in their right mind
is going to fund airplanes and related equipment without oversight, but far too much is put on the shoulders
of Unit CCs with no actual plan or support.

Thinking about how much of CAP's operational requirements are left to happenstance, circumstance,
and outright wishful thinking is somewhat flabbergasting to me, having been in the weeds for 21+
years.  Imagine what the FNGs think.

"That Others May Zoom"

Paul Creed III

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on November 18, 2021, 09:24:20 PM<snip> But...who's to say the airport won't kick them out either. <snip>

Which is why there are supposed to be contracts, signed by NHQ and the owner of the space, even for totally free use, in place. The contracts don't prevent being booted but at least there's some legal paperwork. Next round of fun: actually getting said contracts.

Not saying it's wrong (it certainly is very much needed for everyone's protection) but it is an additional level of burden on the field units, especially the commanders. Wasn't there a working group to reduce squadron commander burden? Oh yeah, I was on it....
Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
Group 3 Ohio Wing sUAS Program Manager

jeders

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on November 18, 2021, 09:24:20 PMYou have Cub Scouts meeting on Sundays, the Rotary Club on Wednesdays, CAP on Thursdays...and we're the one that is coming in with all this red tape.

I'm just gonna say this as a commercial landlord; if the people you are getting your space from are in any way upset or inconvenienced by you wanting a written agreement, you need to run. Run fast and run far because those are the people that get you in trouble.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

NIN

Apologies if this is longer than intended. It was like when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor..


Quote from: TheSkyHornet on November 18, 2021, 05:57:38 PMBear in mind that many units don't have contractual arrangements with their host facility; somethings for better and sometimes for worse.

What's lacking when there is no legal arrangement is the accountability and next step in the event of damage. Who pays? Whose insurance covers this? What if the building floods...is CAP liable for the property? What property, at that? If it's not listed in ORMS, how do you know?

While I hate to sound like a wing commander, this is one of those things: Liability is pretty much inescapable in this day and age. While Paul mentioned the "unit commander burden working group," unfortunately they're not able to do much to reduce the potential for liability. Thats as inevitable as death & taxes... :( 

I just had this conversation with one of my units about a storage unit that one of the guys rented for the squadron (no ding on him, he was trying to get the mission accomplished with some limited guidance). If its going to be paid for by CAP, then it needs to be in CAP's name, and the contract needs to be executed by CAP. Why? So then its covered by things like CAP's insurance. CAP AND the storage company are protected in the event of a problem in either direction.

Made Up Scenario: Unit's field mess setup gets put back in the storage unit temporarily after a weekend field activity. It needs to be cleaned, but its Sunday night and folks are tired and in a hurry. No big deal, they'll get to it in the coming week. A global pandemic shuts CAP down, nobody is going to the field, and the guy who had all the best intentions in the world of cleaning up the field mess kit never gets back over there. In the ensuing months, the field mess kit grows green and black mold that now has creeped its way into the adjacent units and the owners of those units want to know who is responsible. Should that be the guy who signed up for the storage unit in his name? Gosh, I hope not. 

Or a sprinkler pipe breaks and ruins the unit's color guard equipment, 100 sets of ABUs, 2 DFs and a 2kw generator the unit had stored in there.  Who is responsible?  Without an agreement thats executed by all parties, does it fall into the guy who rented the unit's lap?

He's a fun one (based on a real situation): Unit wants to rent some hangar space just for the winter months at their airport. A hangar owner only wants to do a handshake deal, no paperwork.  Commander isn't entirely sure why the owner doesn't want to do a basic lease. He has to tell the unit "no paperwork, no deal." Why?  Because you're about to park a $450,000 asset in a building not exclusively controlled by CAP. You want your taxpayer-funded asset to be protected in the event of loss. One of the other hangar occupants pushes his Piper Cub in the hangar one fine Sunday afternoon, the gascolator springs a leak 2 minutes after he closes the door and pours raw 100LL on a still-hot exhaust. The hangar burns down, taking your G1000 182 with it. No agreement, no liability? What happens if Avionics #2 bus in our airplane overheats and starts a fire? Or one side of the hangar collapses under a record snow load, breaking off the tail of the 182 just aft of the windows.

The more frequent and likely scenario usually surrounds a unit's use of a facility (school, FBO hangar, church, whatever) for meetings without any sort of a formal agreement. 

Lt Col Tom, the squadron commander,  knows a guy on the board of the local charter school. He gets a sweetheart deal for the unit to meet at that location from 6:30 to 9pm on Tuesdays. The unit meets there for 2+ years, no problems at all. In that time, the cadets staff start showing up at 6:15 to get ready for formation at 6:30. Nobody really cares, the original handshake deal was for 6:30, but its OK. Then, Lt Col Tom ends his tour as unit commander, Capt Joe takes over, and all is good with the world of CAP. Until people are still standing around at 9:30pm shooting the breeze and the custodian wants to go home. The principal from the charter school doesn't know Capt Joe, doesn't have contact info for him, and oh, by the way, the board member who setup the original sweetheart deal for these Air Patrol people hasn't been on the board for a year. All he knows is that he's paying his custodian for an extra half hour that winds up eating in to his budget.

"Hey, we don't know what the original deal here was, but you guys can't meet here anymore."

Raise your hand if you've heard this story before. I saw it twice at one unit:  two successive commanders making handshake deals with two different meeting locations. Each time when the commander switched out, the meeting location had no relationship with the new commander, and lacking a formal relationship with CAP: "Who are you people again? Yeah, this isn't working for us."

If you don't have some sort of a formal agreement with the school, FBO, community center, etc, you're usually there on the largess of one person (the gal who originally said yes). Once that "relationship" is severed in some way, the unit is operating without a net.

Nevermind something like "Cadet Smith was running PT, stepped in a hole in the parking lot and tib-fib'd himself so bad that he's never going to walk right again."  Now someone's medical insurance company saying "Who can we go after to recover part of this cost? Where did this happen? Oh, a charter school with deep pockets? During this Air Patrol thing?"

Then CAP is saying "We didn't know the unit met there." (and the safety guys are saying "..and you never did a risk assessment on doing PT in an unlit parking lot in the evening in late October?") 

Quote from: undefinedA lot of units also don't have storage space in the building, so materials often live in someone's basement, garage, or back of their car. I'm guilty of that one. I couldn't say how long I had a backseat full of water cans, litter, and power cords. Who do they even belong to? No idea. But it was more convenient to haul it around and take it to wherever we were going to meet than to pack it away in a storage closet filled to the top. Not every squadron has cabinet space.

I had a chat with a fellow on Facebook the other day. During COVID, their unit wasn't meeting at their normal location. They returned to their "home" location a few months ago to discover that in the interim their hosts had drilled out the lock on the CAP filing cabinet and emptied the entire thing out (unit records, personnel files, etc). Gone. I didn't ask if they had a formal agreement with the host facility as to what they could keep there, etc, but at a certain point: those records are an asset just like your squadron van or the 6-pack of radios. Man, I'd be INCENSED if that happened to me.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

On the storage unit angle only, rare will be the facility that will not require the customer to
purchase liability insurance at additional cost (often more then the unit costs per month), or
sign an attestation that they have their own insurance, in either case absolving the facility of
liability (until lawyers get involved, of course).

Quote from: NIN on November 19, 2021, 02:49:19 PMtheir hosts had drilled out the lock on the CAP filing cabinet and emptied the entire thing out (unit records, personnel files, etc). Gone

Way uncool, but any unit that still has a filing cabinet these days, is doing it wrong.

"That Others May Zoom"

NIN

Quote from: Eclipse on November 19, 2021, 03:10:55 PMWay uncool, but any unit that still has a filing cabinet these days, is doing it wrong.

Not gonna disagree, but. But most units still might need a place to keep pubs, their supply box, etc.  My old unit keeps their printer, laptop & projector in a file cabinet, for example. 

As much as we'd love the fantasy that "everything is in the cloud," not everything is in the cloud.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

Quote from: NIN on November 19, 2021, 03:53:07 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 19, 2021, 03:10:55 PMWay uncool, but any unit that still has a filing cabinet these days, is doing it wrong.

Not gonna disagree, but. But most units still might need a place to keep pubs, their supply box, etc.  My old unit keeps their printer, laptop & projector in a file cabinet, for example. 

OK, seriously?

Quote from: NIN on November 19, 2021, 03:53:07 PMAs much as we'd love the fantasy that "everything is in the cloud," not everything is in the cloud.

Fair dinkum on laptops, etc., but not a good idea for these reasons.

Otherwise, everything already >is< in the cloud.  There is nothing that should be in personnel files
that anyone cares about that isn't tracked, or trackable on eservices, and if your wing still requires
those ridiculous 45's, that's what Google dive is made for.

Yay skeuomorphism!

"That Others May Zoom"