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Praise for Vanguard

Started by Майор Хаткевич, August 21, 2012, 09:53:50 PM

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jeders

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on August 23, 2012, 04:53:20 PM
Quote from: jeders on August 23, 2012, 04:27:12 PM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on August 23, 2012, 04:05:36 PM
CAPM 39-1 describes it this way "Men's and Women's Golf Shirt/Summer Uniform".  Note the use of the word "uniform".

You're point? The golf shirt uniform is an OPTIONAL uniform. It is not, nor does it even come close to being, the minimum basic REQUIRED uniform.

Do you mean "your point?"  or better yet "What is your point?".   ::)

:Facepalm: Yes, your, not you're.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

RogueLeader

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on August 22, 2012, 11:30:24 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 22, 2012, 11:20:23 PM
The G/W is the MINIMUM, UNIFORM.

Is there a regulation that requires that as the minimum?

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on August 23, 2012, 04:53:20 PM
Quote from: jeders on August 23, 2012, 04:27:12 PM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on August 23, 2012, 04:05:36 PM
CAPM 39-1 describes it this way "Men's and Women's Golf Shirt/Summer Uniform".  Note the use of the word "uniform".

You're point? The golf shirt uniform is an OPTIONAL uniform. It is not, nor does it even come close to being, the minimum basic REQUIRED uniform.

Do you mean "your point?"  or better yet "What is your point?".   ::)

Really? ???
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

Critical AOA

Well, my point is this.

Yes I understand that we are to equip ourselves with one of the listed basic uniforms.  I own the white aviator shirt which is listed as a basic uniform option.  So I have duly equipped myself with a basic uniform.  Does it mean I must wear it?

Now, the golf shirt is listed as an optional uniform and I do not see any restrictions on its wear for normal duties.   I wear it to our regularly scheduled meetings.  I wear it when I fly unless I choose to wear my flight suit.  I wear it when I go to a SAREX.  I even wore it to SLS & CLC.   Each and every time a large percentage of other attendees were wearing it as well.  It seems to be an option a very large percentage of us prefer to wear as our standard uniform.  So unless you can point out where it is written that I am only allowed to wear it under certain circumstances, I will consider it my default basic uniform.

It is the most comfortable uniform option.  It is inexpensive to buy.  It is easy to maintain.  Yes, you can't hang all of your bling on it but so what?  I am in CAP for the mission and the opportunity to do some good. In doing so, I choose to be comfortable and frugal.  I am not here to play dress up or to try to look cool or impress anyone by wearing a bunch of bright shiny bling.   That does not further the mission one iota.
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."   - George Bernard Shaw

Critical AOA

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 23, 2012, 04:55:55 PM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on August 22, 2012, 11:30:24 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 22, 2012, 11:20:23 PM
The G/W is the MINIMUM, UNIFORM.

Is there a regulation that requires that as the minimum?

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on August 23, 2012, 04:53:20 PM
Quote from: jeders on August 23, 2012, 04:27:12 PM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on August 23, 2012, 04:05:36 PM
CAPM 39-1 describes it this way "Men's and Women's Golf Shirt/Summer Uniform".  Note the use of the word "uniform".

You're point? The golf shirt uniform is an OPTIONAL uniform. It is not, nor does it even come close to being, the minimum basic REQUIRED uniform.

Do you mean "your point?"  or better yet "What is your point?".   ::)

Really? ???

Yes.
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."   - George Bernard Shaw

RogueLeader

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on August 23, 2012, 04:59:17 PM

Yes I understand that we are to equip ourselves with one of the listed basic uniforms.  I own the white aviator shirt which is listed as a basic uniform option.  So I have duly equipped myself with a basic uniform.

Then why this?

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on August 22, 2012, 11:30:24 PM
Is there a regulation that requires that as the minimum?

Explain this please.  I guess I just don't understand. 
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

Critical AOA

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 23, 2012, 05:03:05 PM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on August 23, 2012, 04:59:17 PM

Yes I understand that we are to equip ourselves with one of the listed basic uniforms.  I own the white aviator shirt which is listed as a basic uniform option.  So I have duly equipped myself with a basic uniform.

Then why this?

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on August 22, 2012, 11:30:24 PM
Is there a regulation that requires that as the minimum?

Explain this please.  I guess I just don't understand.


I guess it might be a bit confusing as written so let me expand on the one quote so my meaning is clear:

"Is there a regulation that requires that as the minimum for wear to normal CAP activities such as squadron meetings, flying, etc.?"

That was in response to the post stating that the G/W was the minimum uniform.   Minimum for what?  That is what I wanted to know. 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."   - George Bernard Shaw

Eclipse

#26
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on August 23, 2012, 05:13:26 PMMinimum for what?  That is what I wanted to know.

Membership.

39-1 Defines the minimum basic uniform as the blues or whites, and mandates that all members must own it.

Actual UOD is prescribed per-activity by the respective commander, and the golf shirt is certainly one option that may be prescribed.
There are many members, especially those who still work in professional environments, that consider golf shirts inappropriate for a paramilitary
organization and don't own one, which goes back to your original question.

The main issue is that, in misguided efforts to make things easier on members, a lot of commanders tell new members that the golf shirt is the most basic
uniform, it isn't.  If it's allowed as an option or prescribed as UOD, so be it, but there is no excuse for this nonsense we hear all the time from members, especially a certain "club" who gnash teeth when the UOD is supposed to be a dress variant and they say "I don't have that."

Well they are supposed to.

Day-1, commanders should be instructing their new members to obtain the blues or the whites, and then commenting that the golf shirt is "another option", not the vice-versa which is the incorrect norm today.

The comments about "bling" and "comfortable" are also misguided and miss the point - we are a uniformed paramilitary organization which has a responsibility to maintain proper, professional appearance, which includes occasionally looking lilke more than a Best Buy employee.  The idea that service uniform variants are somehow "optional" for seniors then bleeds into formations being optional, and courtesies, and bearing, and eventually
we get where we are.

"That Others May Zoom"

PWK-GT

^^ +1
And as a recent former CC, I insisted on seeing a correct minimum uniform before I processed the Level One completion for any member.

When you own the minimum, it's not that hard to justify wearing it...and getting a return on your investment.
"Is it Friday yet"


Luis R. Ramos

No, Mr Vandenbroek, the G/W is NOT a "basic uniform" as you quote.
The G/W is an OPTIONAL uniform. How long have you served CAP?

Then why are you getting testy with the majority who are telling you otherwise in here, who have seen at least ten (10) years service each, if not more.

And I own only the BDU and the Blues. Once I had two sets of BDUs, two short sleeve Blue shirts and one long-sleeve.

I had a corporate uniform as well, it is gone.

Now I have only one BDU, one short, and one long sleeve. And will replace these before I get the G/W.

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

a2capt

What if, due to restrictions of uniform wear, that is all one can use when a uniform is required or appropriate, over a golf shirt casual look? .. that would kinda put a kink in the minimum, wouldn't it?

Critical AOA

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 23, 2012, 07:36:23 PM
No, Mr Vandenbroek, the G/W is NOT a "basic uniform" as you quote.
The G/W is an OPTIONAL uniform. How long have you served CAP?

Then why are you getting testy with the majority who are telling you otherwise in here, who have seen at least ten (10) years service each, if not more.

And I own only the BDU and the Blues. Once I had two sets of BDUs, two short sleeve Blue shirts and one long-sleeve.

I had a corporate uniform as well, it is gone.

Now I have only one BDU, one short, and one long sleeve. And will replace these before I get the G/W.

Flyer

It was not my quote.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 22, 2012, 11:20:23 PM
I don't own the shirt. Don't plan on getting it - ever.

The G/W is the MINIMUM, UNIFORM.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."   - George Bernard Shaw

RogueLeader

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 23, 2012, 07:36:23 PM
No, Mr Vandenbroek, the G/W is NOT a "basic uniform" as you quote.
The G/W is an OPTIONAL uniform. How long have you served CAP?

Flyer

Actually, it is.  It is only optional for those member that do not meet AF weight and grooming.  You have to either have AF style or Corporate Basic Uniform.  IE blues or G/W per 39-1, which I quoted earlier.

How long have YOU served in CAP?
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

SarDragon

Quote from: flyer333555 on August 23, 2012, 07:36:23 PM
No, Mr Vandenbroek, the G/W is NOT a "basic uniform" as you quote.
The G/W is an OPTIONAL uniform. How long have you served CAP?

Then why are you getting testy with the majority who are telling you otherwise in here, who have seen at least ten (10) years service each, if not more.

And I own only the BDU and the Blues. Once I had two sets of BDUs, two short sleeve Blue shirts and one long-sleeve.

I had a corporate uniform as well, it is gone.

Now I have only one BDU, one short, and one long sleeve. And will replace these before I get the G/W.

Flyer

Highlighted differently, just for you.

Quotehttp://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/m391_e6f33eaaec28a.pdf
1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members
will equip themselves with the basic uniform.
The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets
and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below.
Members may obtain and wear
the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. Uniform clothing may
be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as
designed. It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform.
Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by
acquiring surplus uniforms. Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard
does not automatically permit its wear.
a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue
belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch,
collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light
blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.
Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight
cap emblem.
b. CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform (senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt;
gray trousers; black belt; black shoes and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.
Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks or skirt; plain black shoes. Insignia: CAP
nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.

That seems to be very clear as a requirement.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

West MI-CAP-Ret

That would be my question/point, too.

I was told that to work directly with cadets, you need to have the minimum uniform, either blues/bdus if you are within weight standards, or whites and bbdus, etc if you are not.

I also know you can't get emergency services sign-offs if you are not in a minimum standard field uniform (bdu/bbdu) etc.

However, if you are a staff wienie, just doing your job behind the scenes, golf shirt and gray trousers/slacks are very comfortable.

Love the posts.  BTW, I also appreciate Vanguard for what they do. 

Thanks, D2, West Michigan  :clap:
MAJ DAVID J. D'ARCY, CAP (Ret) 8 Apr 2018 (1974-1982, 1988-2018)
A former member of:
West Michigan Group MI-703,
Hudsonville Cadet Sqdron MI-135 (name changed to Park Township, Al Johnson Cadet Sqdrn)
Lakeshore Cadet Sqdrn MI-119
Van Dyke Cadet Sqdrn, MI-117
Phoenix Cadet Sqdrn MI-GLR-MI-065 (inactive)
Novi Sixgate Cadet Sqdrn (inactive), MI-068
Inkster Cherry Hill Cadet Sqdrn MI-GLR-MI-283 (inactive)

Silent Panther

Quote from: Robb Ottenhoff on August 22, 2012, 04:17:04 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 21, 2012, 09:53:50 PM
Despite issues that day, I was able to place an order on the 15th. My order totaled $112, and I was offered the option of free shipping with a 3-5 day processing time. This seemed acceptable to me, and I went ahead with my order for free shipping.

On the 17th I received notice from Vanguard that my order had already been shipped, and was coming to me via UPS 2nd Day service.

Today on the 21st (2 Business days later), I'm writing this comment to say that the handling time was very reasonable and under the posted timeframe, the order was shipped via 2nd day and arrived in perfect condition, and all of the items are of good quality (total of 19 line items), and all are present and in the correct amounts.

Since I work in ecommerce, I felt like Vanguard deserves its due when it does right. I always hear from the "extremely unhappy" clients, but only rarely from the really happy folks. Those who are satisfied are also typically very quiet. I think this is also the case for big V.

Thanks Vanguard for (once again) great service!  :clap:

(( First post!! ))

+1 for good service. 

I'm a new member and only have been dealing with Vanguard for the last 30 days, but with several orders under my belt, I find them fast and professional.  It takes time to change any organization / operation, and even more time to change (and win) the hearts and minds of those that experienced bad service.  I echo usafaux2004's comments that Vanguard  deserves recognition for when it gets it right.   I'm sure there will be times in the future where things are not 100%, but if we all acknowledge what's working with as much integrity and commitment as when we  report what's not working, I believe that we'll create a powerful partnership with Vanguard that will serve everyone.

I've been a cadet for 5.5 years. When I first got started, we ordered all of our stuff through the Hock. (Am I even allowed to bring that up any more?) After everything went down, my first sergeant, who just so happened to be on his way out to the USCGA, sent me an email pretty much saying "sucks to be you. good luck". The quality of some of the gear from Vanguard is inferior to other stuff that I have. For example, my Curry ribbon, ordered from the HS, has been moved from rack to rack to rack and is still in perfect shape. My Goddard ribbon has been moved three times and is falling apart. While the Hock was alive, I was definitely a card-carrying member of the "I hate Vanguard" camp. Now that they are all we have, I have discovered that they aren't complete screw-ups.
Also known as
"OX", "Angel", "GrillBoy", & "Wheels"
There's a story and at least one NCSA behind every one.

Майор Хаткевич

I used the Hock once....in 2004. Their stuff was not only inferior, but also incorrect. Ribbons from the Hock were no batter than others. It all depends on how you move them and aren't really event meant for that.

a2capt

Batter ... like pancakes?

The biggest infraction that I'll admit, I called out "hack shop cr_p" over, turned out to actually not be. The epaulets had a really cheesy, flat-gray, thin cumply looking fabric and on top of all the other half quality-off looking stuff.. only to see those things actually at a wing conference in a Vanguard display.

They didn't seem to last long, maybe I wasn't the only one that noticed..

Luis R. Ramos

Rogue, SAR-

Meant to say the POLO as Vanden keeps defending it. And harping on it ad nauseaum as if it would be the one listed as the basic...

Reread my message. Where I take Vanden to task for arguing with those that told him - several times - which is the asic uniform...

And the question still stands - for Vanden.

I have been in CAP 11 years, since Rogue threw it back at me.

Wore Greys/Whites while waiting for my blues.

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

BigShu

I've ordered from Vanguard 3 times. Each purchase was shipped quickly, accurately, and seems to be of good quality. I don't have any other mechandise to judge it against.
At any rate, now that I have my name tag, I've assembled the minimum uniform. I guess the polo shirt will still be worn some, since it appears to be pretty common at meetings. 

RogueLeader

Well I placed an order (it was Monday night)  with several custom pieces (2 leather flight badges and several nametapes) and it shipped today.  I was surprised that the lead time has come down as it had.  I figured it would be a couple more days before it shipped.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340