CAP Talk

PAWG failed the Compliance Inspection real bad.  The AF decided to shut the wing down, no missions, corporate or AF assigned, no vehicles, no communications, NO AFIADL courses (because of real bad cheating), and no flying at all.  PLUS all the wing members have to take the CAP ORM course before the wing gets turned back on.  So, yes we all suck out here in PAWG.  Good thing we have a Wing Commander that knows how to run the wing correctly.  PLUS we have a Paid Staff that drains our resources and money, and doesn't do much of anything. 

No worry kids the Hawk MTN person already said "Screw the AF, we are running the MTN whether they like it or not, everything is a go".

YAY! 

Any documentation behind this.  It is kinda the thing we don't fully believe until we can actually see something. 

Well, this would explain the message I saw on the MDWG list to be prepared o/o to conduct non-exercise missions in PA - if they're in lockdown the surrounding wings are going to have to pick up the slack.  That will be ugly.

^ OK.....here are the first wing wide wide emails, I won't post others as they were all "Private".

http://pawingcap.com/pipermail/gp1_pawingcap.com/2008-April/000206.html (http://pawingcap.com/pipermail/gp1_pawingcap.com/2008-April/000206.html)

http://pawingcap.com/pipermail/gp1_pawingcap.com/2008-April/000207.html (http://pawingcap.com/pipermail/gp1_pawingcap.com/2008-April/000207.html)

I was wondering what the email was about.  Makes more sense now.  
Wow.  :o

Quote from: ddelaney103 on April 14, 2008, 08:24:09 PM
Well, this would explain the message I saw on the MDWG list to be prepared o/o to conduct non-exercise missions in PA - if they're in lockdown the surrounding wings are going to have to pick up the slack.  That will be ugly.

Umm ya.....MDWG should just move north of Mason-Dixon and take over all ops FOREVER!

Sounds like a perfect time for Colgan to start his plan to work towards the top...its a shame though that this is happening.

It is unfortunate that those who may need the services of CAP will suffer AND the members in the local units who work hard day in and day out get to take the fall for poor management.

I hope it gets 'fixed' most expeditiously. 

Raise your hand if you're surprised......

No hands, didn't think so.

You have more details, or documentation?

Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 14, 2008, 08:31:39 PM
Sounds like a perfect time for Colgan to start his plan to work towards the top...its a shame though that this is happening.

It is unfortunate that those who may need the services of CAP will suffer AND the members in the local units who work hard day in and day out get to take the fall for poor management.

I hope it gets 'fixed' most expeditiously. 

I am currently coordinating with DEWG's Special Forces for the invasion.  MDWG and others would be welcome to contribute some Special Ops personnel as well.  We will probably rally at a Dunkin' Donuts, as per protocol.

wtf...http://pawingcap.com/pipermail/gp3_pawingcap.com/2008-April/000184.html

What is the PA mission load out in the Southwest section? 
I am in Western MD and my Group might need to cover a much larger area than usual.

Quote from: ddelaney103 on April 14, 2008, 08:24:09 PM
Well, this would explain the message I saw on the MDWG list to be prepared o/o to conduct non-exercise missions in PA - if they're in lockdown the surrounding wings are going to have to pick up the slack.  That will be ugly.

Yeah I don't know about spending over $100 on gas to go up there for an ELT.  Mikey you want to transfer to one of our squadrons?  You can set up a branch office up there.

Quote from: cnitas on April 14, 2008, 08:38:28 PM
What is the PA mission load out in the Southwest section? 
I am in Western MD and my Group might need to cover a much larger area than usual.

like most of CAP, sometimes lots, sometimes jack. 

Quote from: Bayhawk21 on April 14, 2008, 08:39:01 PM

Quote from: ddelaney103 on April 14, 2008, 08:24:09 PM
Well, this would explain the message I saw on the MDWG list to be prepared o/o to conduct non-exercise missions in PA - if they're in lockdown the surrounding wings are going to have to pick up the slack.  That will be ugly.

Yeah I don't know about spending over $100 on gas to go up there for an ELT.  Mikey you want to transfer to one of our squadrons?  You can set up a branch office up there.

Its reimbursable by the AF, and this was their decision.  I could use the 'real world' missions for my trainees.  It gets slow out here in Western MD sometimes.  We don't have all those 'ELTs' you Annapolis guys do.

Why not do a swap - give PAWG to MER or GLR, and give MD and DE to NER?

Quote from: cnitas on April 14, 2008, 08:43:33 PM
Its reimbursable by the AF, and this was their decision.

Getting reimbursed months later doesn't count. 

Quote from: cnitas on April 14, 2008, 08:43:33 PMWe don't have all those 'ELTs' you Annapolis guys do.

I can't help it if the ELT missions find me.  8)

Seeking meaningful participation --

If you need something in South West PA  (Somerset, Fayette, Cambria & Westmoreland counties), just call us, we'll offer to consult.  Two incident commanders.  330-317-1774

E. Flick, Lt. Colonel, CAP
C. Flick, Major, CAP 

Wow,

Sorry to hear this happened.  It really gives me some extra incentive to make sure my house is in order for our upcoming inspection.

This is a mass email I received

Commanders,

Unfortunately I had to ground Pennsylvania Wing yesterday, because of there unsatisfactory in safety on there CI inspection. All aircraft and vehicles are grounded, all training and emergency missions are suspended. I am going to do every think in my power to get Pennsylvania up and running as fast as possible. I will be asking for your help to see this through and I know we can get this accomplished soon. I have asked Col Mull and Col Sirois to lead the way and resolve this ASAP. The issues in question has bin lingering for quit some time and it is no reflection on Col Lee.

Thank you
Col Robert Diduch
NER CC

At this point it's probably a bit premature to guess to what extent this whole thing will affect all wings involved.  Something went wrong and it will be fixed.  I'm sure this "event" is now the prime focus of the organization.  Fixes will probably come fairly soon.  If called I'll go up there to help but I'm not quite to the point of calling my aunt up there for a place to stay for a while.  Now as for making some jokes and such, no offense is meant towards any PA people.  I was born there and really like the state.  Anyway, I call dibs on Hawk Mountain.  We'll make it NESA east or something.

Haven't seen yet if NYWG is going to be taking any responsibility for portions of PAWG's area of responsibility.   Though I imagine more of the downstaters would be getting in on that, than us "Upstate" New Yorkers.

Certainly it's a shame to see any CAP resources go unused and it's unfortunate whenever this happens.  I'm sure it can also be discouraging for hard-working, well-trained members throughout the Wing.  I think when CAP members really shine through is when they demonstrate superior attitudes, performance and perseverance to get through tough times like these.  My best wishes to our PAWG brethren to get everything squared away that they need to and to get back to operational status.

Quote from: Pylon on April 14, 2008, 09:15:01 PM
Haven't seen yet if NYWG is going to be taking any responsibility for portions of PAWG's area of responsibility.   Though I imagine more of the downstaters would be getting in on that, than us "Upstate" New Yorkers.

Certainly it's a shame to see any CAP resources go unused and it's unfortunate whenever this happens.  I'm sure it can also be discouraging for hard-working, well-trained members throughout the Wing.  I think when CAP members really shine through is when they demonstrate superior attitudes, performance and perseverance to get through tough times like these.  My best wishes to our PAWG brethren to get everything squared away that they need to and to get back to operational status.

Hmph, maybe we can get some good Ground Team stuff.

woot! more missions for west jersey squadrons!

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 14, 2008, 08:02:38 PM
No worry kids the Hawk MTN person already said "Screw the AF, we are running the MTN whether they like it or not, everything is a go".

Hmm... I wonder if this attitude is part of the problem?

You would think with all the whistles, orange hats, ranger tabs that they would know how to do things correctly.

Quote from: TankerT on April 14, 2008, 11:07:55 PM

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 14, 2008, 08:02:38 PM
No worry kids the Hawk MTN person already said "Screw the AF, we are running the MTN whether they like it or not, everything is a go".

Hmm... I wonder if this attitude is part of the problem?

You would think with all the whistles, orange hats, ranger tabs that they would know how to do things correctly.

Any chance that, instead of an unauthorized Hawk, that the REGION or CAPNHQ could take it over for this occasion? 

Quote from: Major Carrales on April 14, 2008, 11:24:34 PM

Quote from: TankerT on April 14, 2008, 11:07:55 PM

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 14, 2008, 08:02:38 PM
No worry kids the Hawk MTN person already said "Screw the AF, we are running the MTN whether they like it or not, everything is a go".

Hmm... I wonder if this attitude is part of the problem?

You would think with all the whistles, orange hats, ranger tabs that they would know how to do things correctly.

Any chance that, instead of an unauthorized Hawk, that the REGION or CAPNHQ could take it over for this occasion? 

Would this issue really last that long?

Quote from: Major Carrales on April 14, 2008, 11:24:34 PM
Any chance that, instead of an unauthorized Hawk, that the REGION or CAPNHQ could take it over for this occasion? 

I would highly doubt this.

To be honest... why would I want to send cadets to an activity hosted by a wing that has rampant safety issues.  Some people might say these are a lot of little items... I.E. paperwork... or burnt out lightbulbs...

But... for crying out loud... if these folks aren't even doing their routine pre-use vehicle safety inspection... how can I feel safe having cadets do something like rappel? 

Just my $.02

My wing sent a GBD to hawk.  That person came back as a certified IC with out the home wing's approval.  That same person then Put out a "Study aid" for FEMA EMI courses.  That study aid was a list of answers to questions. 

When I approached a leader at hawk about attendin gthe program I was informed to not come.  The reason was "We dont like having people with experience attending our courses"

After those experiences I stoped looking at PA wing with rose colored glasses

QuoteAfter those experiences I stoped looking at PA wing with rose colored glasses

....just like Iowa wing when given a change of leadership members decided to "quit" rather than accept change because they didnt agree with it...certainly changed my opinion of the "model way to run a CAP wing"...so its not just a PA thing, no where else in CAP should be looked at with rose colored glasses, look in the right places and I bet everyone is pretty screwed up, this just seesm to be the first time someone has actully been called on it.

QuoteNo worry kids the Hawk MTN person already said "Screw the AF, we are running the MTN whether they like it or not, everything is a go".

Maybe a poor way to phrase it, but nothing in the E-mail really effects the monthly staff training.
HMRS has no vehicles or aircraft assigned, the monthly activity is not classified as a training mission.  The only requirement I would see is that they should verify that all participants complete the required ORM training.  But I would love to see the name and source for the quote by the "Hawk MTN person".......

Quoteif these folks aren't even doing their routine pre-use vehicle safety inspection... how can I feel safe having cadets do something like rappel?

I'd say the same thing about "O" rides in the wings that have had A/C crashes.....and thats even a docuemnted case of loss of life, the same cant be said about the PAWG problem. 
I have no doubt that if HMRS rope and rappel operations were an inspected safety item there would be no issues there, but thats my opinion based on first hand knowledge not internet speculation; you are entilted to form your own based on your sources, I'll use mine.

mk

Mark,

I usually like your posts....but that last one...was just all over the place.

First....HMRS sometimes puts on a big face and fails to follow through.  I sure would not want anything to do with PAWG if I was told "thanks but no thanks" and if they were producing unqualified personnel.  No matter how un professional the people in my own wing are.

Second...Sound like you are splitting hairs on the HMRS being a training operation or not.  If PAWG is not cleared hot by then....then the school should not be held.

Third...after a major accident we do an investigation and corrective measures are taken as appropriate.  When a whole wing is shut down for lack of safety....enough so that everyone is required to re-take basic safety classes....it does make you wonder about other operations.  Sure it may be isolated....but it may not be.

Stop trying to shift blame to everyone else.....fix the problem and move on.

From what I've heard from several sources,  the current safety issues in PAWG are a result of a culture of lax standards for the past few years.  It was considered ok for unit commanders not to prepare proper reports and insure proper vehicle maint.
Aircraft maint. has been up to par.  However, paperwork was not.  Wing Safety Officer was qualified, but was accused of not having proper credentials.  There was no written safety policy in effect.  And, I understand there was no recorded safety down day back in Oct. 

According to the CAP/SE, most of these problems are NOT accurate.  However, since there was a lack of preparation for the inspection, there was no documentation available for the inspector.  This, I understand, was the main cause of the grounding, IMHO. 

Col. Lee, who inherited this situation, will get all the help he needs to correct these problems and, I'm sure the wing will be up and running soon.  Unfortunately, it takes some drastic measures to change a culture. 

One thing PAWG must understand,  SAFETY is Job 1.

BTW, PAWG received Turner Awards in 2000 and 2003.  That's the award for excellence in Safety.

This is a mass email I received

Commanders,

Unfortunately I had to ground Pennsylvania Wing yesterday, because of there unsatisfactory in safety on there CI inspection. All aircraft and vehicles are grounded, all training and emergency missions are suspended. I am going to do every think in my power to get Pennsylvania up and running as fast as possible. I will be asking for your help to see this through and I know we can get this accomplished soon. I have asked Col Mull and Col Sirois to lead the way and resolve this ASAP. The issues in question has bin lingering for quit some time and it is no reflection on Col Lee.

Thank you
Col Robert Diduch
NER CC




I hope that this e-mail wasn't a copy and paste - but rather a quick re-type.

If it was a copy and paste - I expect a lot more out of a CAP Corporate Officer in terms of Spell Check and use of correct words, that was embarrassing to read! 

Quote from: 1st Lt FAT and FUZZY on April 14, 2008, 09:03:00 PM
This is a mass email I received                  C-

Commanders,

Unfortunately I had to ground Pennsylvania Wing yesterday, because of there their unsatisfactory grade in safety on theretheir CI inspection. All aircraft and vehicles are grounded, all training and emergency missions are suspended. I am going to do every thinkthing in my power to get Pennsylvania up and running as fast as possible. I will be asking for your help to see this through and I know we can get this accomplished soon. I have asked Col Mull and Col Sirois to lead the way and resolve this ASAP. The issues in question has bin been lingering for quitquite some time and it is not a reflection on Col Lee's leadership.

Thank you
Col Robert Diduch
NER CC

You would think the Region CC would have someone to proof read his official correspondence.

edit: And I really need to pay attention to that warning that comes up telling me there has been a new reply.

Quote from: FW on April 15, 2008, 01:21:30 AM

One thing PAWG must understand,  SAFETY is Job 1.

I have to disagree with you there. Safety is not job one. Our mission to support 1AF is job one. Our Cadets are job one. Aerospace education is job one. Safety comes in a very close second. If you are too focused on safety you lose sight of why you are there and we might as well all go home. What we do is inherently dangerous. It is everyones job to work in a safe fashion but the mission must get done. From what I've read PAWG has really screwed the pooch and needs to be grounded. They have not followed though with established safety procedures.

Quote from: sarmed1 on April 15, 2008, 12:06:53 AM
...
HMRS has no vehicles or aircraft assigned
...

but...(yeah, I mean the one in front) >:D

(http://www.pawingcap.com/hawk/graphics/The%20new%20Medic%20Bobcat.JPG)

That's $1,000 in diamond plate right there. Plus $200 in JD seats. The terms "fraud, waste and abuse" come to mind

Quote from: davidsinn on April 15, 2008, 01:54:10 AM
That's $1,000 in diamond plate right there. Plus $200 in JD seats. The terms "fraud, waste and abuse" come to mind

I'll bet it was all donated. More power to them for selling the program. (And bet you're jealous cuz your Rhino (?) isn't similarly equipped!)  ;D

Let's not take shots at the PA Wing right now, they are obviously "down" and it could happen to your Wing or anyone's Wing.   Let's just wish them well and hope they can get past this.

Does anyone have any idea as to how often Wings have been shut down, which ones and when?  thanks, 

Quote from: Major Carrales on April 15, 2008, 02:27:25 AM
Let's not take shots at the PA Wing right now, they are obviously "down" and it could happen to your Wing or anyone's Wing.   Let's just wish them well and hope they can get past this.

Well said.....we are one Civil Air Patrol.....WE are only as strong as OUR weakest link....so for OUR sake we should hope PAWG well and also maybe double check our own units, groups and wings to make sure OUR next inspection goes well  :)

Quote from: capchiro on April 15, 2008, 02:30:29 AM
Does anyone have any idea as to how often Wings have been shut down, which ones and when?  thanks, 

A few years ago Indiana was shut down for failure of a wing SAR Eval...I think it was 2002 or so.....we were down a couple months until the "retest"...of course they let us keep flying CN.....no orientation flights....no life saving SAR....but CN was allowed....thats just an interesting side note. AND of course we have spent like 11 of the past 12 years on one type of logistics freeze or another....so....I feel bad for PA....I know the failures in Indiana over the years had very little to do with the membership and readiness of the wing at the local level to perform ES, AE, and CP... and everything to do with the leadership or lack there of at the wing level. PA members hang in there.....

Quote from: davidsinn on April 15, 2008, 01:37:35 AM

Quote from: FW on April 15, 2008, 01:21:30 AM

One thing PAWG must understand,  SAFETY is Job 1.

I have to disagree with you there. Safety is not job one. Our mission to support 1AF is job one. Our Cadets are job one. Aerospace education is job one. Safety comes in a very close second. If you are too focused on safety you lose sight of why you are there and we might as well all go home. What we do is inherently dangerous. It is everyones job to work in a safe fashion but the mission must get done. From what I've read PAWG has really screwed the pooch and needs to be grounded. They have not followed though with established safety procedures.

LT, thank you for your opinion.  However, I would suggest you add your name to the list of those who should take the ORM course.  Yes, all we do has risk.  Understand we take "acceptable" risk.  Everything we do, requires us to do it in the safest way possible.  To do otherwise is foolish and wrong.  
To repeat:" Safety IS Job 1."  Everything else follows suit.

QuoteI have to disagree with you there. Safety is not job one. Our mission to support 1AF is job one.

We'll see how well a unit fares if there is a death due to some safety issue.  I think, generally, it is good practice to conduct Missions without careless safety "causalties" on our side.

Quote from: sarmed1 on April 15, 2008, 12:06:53 AM

QuoteAfter those experiences I stoped looking at PA wing with rose colored glasses

....just like Iowa wing when given a change of leadership members decided to "quit" rather than accept change because they didnt agree with it.

1. It's a volunteer organization.

2. Where's your naysaying of all those IAWG members who left when the WTA was enacted and didn't like the idea, and

3. From all accounts I got, those who left were marked men.

I won't say for sure, but it would be nice of Ohio to help. I'd be willing to jump in there, and pick up the slack until this mess is sorted out. Sorry about the bad luck guys (and gals).

Quote from: FW on April 15, 2008, 02:47:37 AM
LT, thank you for your opinion. however, I would suggest you add your name to the list of those who should take the ORM course.....  
To repeat:" Safety IS Job 1."  

I checked out the ORM course, and have to say it should be required CAP-Wide.  It is a decent DOD/AF product.  PAWG members only have to comply with the first module and test, and send WING HQ the proof they did it, but the entire thing taken together in its entirety is great.  

I will also say Safety is JOB 1, but we all know people who "go over the top" in regard to playing safe.  

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on April 15, 2008, 03:07:50 AM
I won't say for sure, but it would be nice of Ohio to help. I'd be willing to jump in there, and pick up the slack until this mess is sorted out. Sorry about the bad luck guys (and gals).

You may get your chance.  Depending on the attitudes and the work required by all PAWG members to comply with the ORM course, it may be MONTHS before Penna gets back to performing. 

Quote from: FW on April 15, 2008, 02:47:37 AM

Quote from: davidsinn on April 15, 2008, 01:37:35 AM

Quote from: FW on April 15, 2008, 01:21:30 AM

One thing PAWG must understand,  SAFETY is Job 1.

I have to disagree with you there. Safety is not job one. Our mission to support 1AF is job one. Our Cadets are job one. Aerospace education is job one. Safety comes in a very close second. If you are too focused on safety you lose sight of why you are there and we might as well all go home. What we do is inherently dangerous. It is everyones job to work in a safe fashion but the mission must get done. From what I've read PAWG has really screwed the pooch and needs to be grounded. They have not followed though with established safety procedures.

LT, thank you for your opinion.  However, I would suggest you add your name to the list of those who should take the ORM course.  Yes, all we do has risk.  Understand we take "acceptable" risk.  Everything we do, requires us to do it in the safest way possible.  To do otherwise is foolish and wrong.  
To repeat:" Safety IS Job 1."  Everything else follows suit.

But when you get tunnel vision over it, then you become less safe.

To me safety is my naggling ex girlfriend in the back of my mind that periodally screams "THAT'S REALLY STUPID!" or "Don't LET THOSE CADETS DO THAT!"

Safety is looking where I step, and making sure I can interpert the sights, smells, and sounds of what's around me and my team.

Quote...was just all over the place

sorry was just trying to hit on a few high points....I wasnt trying to shift blame, just pointing out that PA is likely not the only "culprit" just the one that got caught...something about glasses houses and stones came to mind...its still a problem that they could have and should have avoided.

Quote....Quote from: sarmed1 on Today at 07:06:53 PM
Quote
After those experiences I stoped looking at PA wing with rose colored glasses

just like Iowa wing when given a change of leadership members decided to "quit" rather than accept change because they didnt agree with it.
1. It's a volunteer organization.
2. Where's your naysaying of all those IAWG members who left when the WTA was enacted and didn't like the idea, and
3. From all accounts I got, those who left were marked men

.

all I was pointing out (and I may have left that vauge) that the thought that Iowa was the model for everyone else to look to change to, yet all was not the perfect picture it seemed like....disidents on both sides, the quitting before, the quitting after,  etc etc....just trying to point out that the rose colored glasses should never be used when looking at anyones CAP operation...there will always be faults to some degree.

I dont think the bobcat counts as a vehicle....at least compared ot aircraft and vans type catagory...actually I dont how it counts period?....never have been able to figure that one out.

mk

Quote from: JThemann on April 15, 2008, 03:17:53 AM
To me safety is my naggling ex girlfriend in the back of my mind that periodally screams "THAT'S REALLY STUPID!" or "Don't LET THOSE CADETS DO THAT!"

You are a rare individual if you actually pay attention to what an ex-girlfriend tells you to do, particularly if she she is nag.   :clap: I will hold back from any other jokes.   ;)

Quote from: isuhawkeye on April 14, 2008, 11:43:10 PM
Just my $.02

My wing sent a GBD to hawk.  That person came back as a certified IC with out the home wing's approval.  That same person then Put out a "Study aid" for FEMA EMI courses.  That study aid was a list of answers to questions. 

When I approached a leader at hawk about attendin gthe program I was informed to not come.  The reason was "We dont like having people with experience attending our courses"

After those experiences I stoped looking at PA wing with rose colored glasses

This is common throughout the emergency services world, not just in CAP and it seems to be especially common with ICS 100, 200 and 700. I dont want to run to far afield but this really torques my transmission as it speaks to honor and integrity especially since every person certifies that their test taking will be an individual effort. I think anyone who can be found to either be cheating or complicit in cheating on any ICS course should have their course certification pulled and not be allowed to ever take it again or to take any further EMI courses. I'm sorry, but if you either cant pass these courses on your own or simply cannot be bothered to do so, this speaks volumes to your character and if you had to crib to get through these ultra-simple courses, I don't want you (the general, universal "you") anywhere near any incident I am working. I also think that any CAP member found complicit in ANY cheating on required courses should be immediately stripped of rank and drummed out in stocks.

Quote from: Major Carrales on April 15, 2008, 02:52:31 AM

QuoteI have to disagree with you there. Safety is not job one. Our mission to support 1AF is job one.

We'll see how well a unit fares if there is a death due to some safety issue.  I think, generally, it is good practice to conduct Missions without careless safety "causalties" on our side.

Safety is always job one in ES. First thing we were taught as EMT's was that your own safety and that of your partner come FIRST. From not running to and from the rig to wearing your seatbelt. If you become a casualty, you become a drain on the system and a danger to everyone around you.  1. SAFETY  2. MISSION  3. EVERYTHING ELSE

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 15, 2008, 03:35:02 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on April 15, 2008, 02:52:31 AM

QuoteI have to disagree with you there. Safety is not job one. Our mission to support 1AF is job one.

We'll see how well a unit fares if there is a death due to some safety issue.  I think, generally, it is good practice to conduct Missions without careless safety "causalties" on our side.

Safety is always job one in ES. First thing we were taught as EMT's was that your own safety and that of your partner come FIRST. From not running to and from the rig to wearing your seatbelt. If you become a casualty, you become a drain on the system and a danger to everyone around you.  1. SAFETY  2. MISSION  3. EVERYTHING ELSE

Well said.  For those who still don't understand this concept.  Take the ORM course.  For those "youngsters" among us who feel that "gung ho" urge to climb that hill during an ice storm or get into that Cessna to find an ELT during a thunderstorm, or take those 16 cadets in a 15 pass. van to the airshow.  I say, "Welcome to the Darwin Awards".  
Tunnel vision; no.  Thoughtfulness and common sense; yes.  Safety; always.  
This and proper documentation will keep your wing from PAWG's predicament.  

Slightly off topic...safety is job 1.

In my varied experinces I have to say I have seen more safety officers that are "over the top"  (or at elast those are the ones I remember).  The ones that threaten to shut down operations because they are the safety officer and can, wont be responsible for something bad happening when they were in charge of safety or yell at people to stop doing something because they dont think its safe (I had someone tell me I shouldnt do a rappeling activity once because you can fall so its not safe, they didnt look into or understand the safety factors that are built into the training, skills or the equipment)  
We have a fire department in my area where their safety officer responds reds lights and sirens to every call they are dispacted on (and its not a very safe vehicle operation the times I have seen him) under the theory that HE needs to be there to monitor safety.  Where this is an important job, me thinks not so important that I imagine he needs to risk his life and the publics by running code to every call just to monitor safety.  Somewhere I think this task should have failed an ORM assessment.

The point being that safety may not be job 1...but its consideration 1 in all jobs we do.  There was a post in the safety section where someone quted Mike Rowe, and the point seemd to be that everything could always be done safer (at least from some angle)...   You can always make something super-safe...but what kind of detriment are you going to have toward your goal accomplishment (and does your safety fixes create a whole new set of safety concerns)

But thats the point of ORM...its weighing the risks vs the consequences and making an informed decision to go or not go. (and with a form, that you can show documentation later if things went badly).

Safety first I think is a better slogan than safety is job 1.  

mk

Yes, what we do is risky and bad things can happen.  But to do it with equipment that has not been checked out 100% to our established standards is not risky - it is just plain stupid.  The same concept applies to training requirements.   Yes, bad things happen to well-trained people with well-maintained equipment - but they tend to have better outcomes than ill-trained people with poorly maintained equipment.   You make a lot of your own luck - and you don't do it by being stupid.

Quote from: capchiro on April 15, 2008, 02:30:29 AM
Does anyone have any idea as to how often Wings have been shut down, which ones and when?  thanks, 

IIRC, not too long ago, GAWG was in a world of hurt and CAWG was shut down a few years back, both not for safety reasons, but logistical freezes...

Quote from: TankerT on April 14, 2008, 11:36:30 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on April 14, 2008, 11:24:34 PM
Any chance that, instead of an unauthorized Hawk, that the REGION or CAPNHQ could take it over for this occasion? 

I would highly doubt this.

To be honest... why would I want to send cadets to an activity hosted by a wing that has rampant safety issues.  Some people might say these are a lot of little items... I.E. paperwork... or burnt out lightbulbs...

But... for crying out loud... if these folks aren't even doing their routine pre-use vehicle safety inspection... how can I feel safe having cadets do something like rappel? 

While I agree with you regarding the silliness of not getting the paperwork and minor items fixed. Please do NOT make the same silly mistake with believing that means major safety items are not looked at/taken care of.

I am NOT in PA Wing (not even close) but this kind of leap to a conclusion just drives me nuts.

Quote from: sarmed1 on April 15, 2008, 03:49:50 AM
Slightly off topic...safety is job 1.

In my varied experinces I have to say I have seen more safety officers that are "over the top"  (or at elast those are the ones I remember).  The ones that threaten to shut down operations because they are the safety officer and can, wont be responsible for something bad happening when they were in charge of safety or yell at people to stop doing something because they dont think its safe (I had someone tell me I shouldnt do a rappeling activity once because you can fall so its not safe, they didnt look into or understand the safety factors that are built into the training, skills or the equipment) 
We have a fire department in my area where their safety officer responds reds lights and sirens to every call they are dispacted on (and its not a very safe vehicle operation the times I have seen him) under the theory that HE needs to be there to monitor safety.  Where this is an important job, me thinks not so important that I imagine he needs to risk his life and the publics by running code to every call just to monitor safety.  Somewhere I think this task should have failed an ORM assessment.

The point being that safety may not be job 1...but its consideration 1 in all jobs we do.  There was a post in the safety section where someone quted Mike Rowe, and the point seemd to be that everything could always be done safer (at least from some angle)...   You can always make something super-safe...but what kind of detriment are you going to have toward your goal accomplishment (and does your safety fixes create a whole new set of safety concerns)

But thats the point of ORM...its weighing the risks vs the consequences and making an informed decision to go or not go. (and with a form, that you can show documentation later if things went badly).

Safety first I think is a better slogan than safety is job 1. 

mk

Thank you! BTW...I LOVE the Mike Rowe reference, because I think he is right.

I am neither "young" or "gung-ho" but I did not join CAP to be a safety person, I joined to do ES. Now, please do not confuse that for being reckless. Heck in my daily job I am IN Risk Management...but that is what so many seem to lose sight of.

It is all about Risk Management, but not eliminating all risk.

If we want to be "safe" we would not fly airplanes, period. Safety is not JOB #1, but as stated above it certainly can be factor #1 in planning and executing any mission. However it STILL is simply one factor of many. One must take the totality of all factors, weigh them accordingly and determine the risk level and if it meets or exceeds our risk tolerance threshold.

I have just seen this silliness with safety go way to far. Reciting the "safety pledge"...you have GOT to be kidding me. I pledge to my flag, to my country, but I will not pledge to safety. That does NOT mean I am not safe...fly with me sometime and see how professional and calculating I am, but I think this pledge and the safety-nazi's that worry more about perception of safety than actual safety have given safety a bad name.

Our JOB #1, at least on the ES side, is finding downed pilots, as safely as possible, it is not to be safe, and find down pilots. That is just my view.

OK, you guys.  "Safety first" is a better phrase than "Safety is Job 1".  The theme, though, is well understood by those who argue this.  But, the idea of "everyone being a safety officer" also is true.  Just don't make it more than it is. 
Take the ORM course and find out what we're trying to put forward.  CAP needs more Turner awards to give out and fewer Darwins.
PAWG is learning this the hard way.  Don't make excuses; learn and improve.

The whole safety issue is to basically keep yourself and your team from becoming casualties.  Just getting up in the morning has some risks, as does staying in bed for that matter.  We can never eliminate all risk, but we can work to minimize it.

My basic philosphy on risk boils down to what was told to me years ago in a pool safety class.  We were told that if you don't know what you're doing, don't go into the water to save someone, because it's better for one person to drown than two.

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 15, 2008, 03:09:08 AM

Quote from: FW on April 15, 2008, 02:47:37 AM
LT, thank you for your opinion. however, I would suggest you add your name to the list of those who should take the ORM course.....  
To repeat:" Safety IS Job 1."  

I checked out the ORM course, and have to say it should be required CAP-Wide.  It is a decent DOD/AF product.  PAWG members only have to comply with the first module and test, and send WING HQ the proof they did it, but the entire thing taken together in its entirety is great.  

MikeyLikey:
would you know what kind of proof of test completion is needed? Does the test spit out a completion cert or something?  Thanks!!!!!   :(

^Please reference your chain of command for current requirements of PAWG.  PM me if you need more information.

I think people are getting stuck on priority vs mission

Safety is not our mission .....our mission is AE, CP, and ES. Our 1st priority in those missions needs to be safety.

This is the same everywere. The poster at a Ford plant may say "Safety is job #1" but if you are so safe you never build a car , unemployment will be job #2. The mission is to build a car , but you have to do that safely or you will have poor labor relations, low production , and law suits out the #$#!

In CAP a lot of our support people have this problem. I know a lot of comm guys bless their hearts think those radio are their personel play things and forget way we have a comm program.

Just in from the PAWG/CC:

----- Original Message -----

From: MARK LEE
 To All Pennsylvania Members:

           This past weekend, April 11 - 14, 2008, the U.S. Air Force and National Headquarters of the Civil Air Patrol conducted the scheduled Compliance Inspection of our PA Wing.  

           We are proud to announce that the preliminary Grade for the Wing is SUCCESSFUL.  A successful grade means PA Wing is meeting and exceeding National standards.  The membership of the Wing is trending up, Professional Development is far exceeding standards, and Cadet Programs and Emergency Services are second to none.

           However, despite this Grade, the inspection team also found what it has termed a lack of "a culture of Safety".  This has resulted in a Safety Rating of UNSATISFACTORY which overshadows the other positive findings.  The mere perception that our program could be unsafe should concern every PA member and requires our immediate attention.

           Because of the Unsatisfactory Safety Rating, ALL MISSION activity has been suspended at this time.  Please be aware that no aircraft or vehicle may be moved or operated without prior approval of the National Commander or the Region Commander.  The Air Force Rescue Coordination Center and appropriate local agencies have been notified.  The surrounding Wings have been notified and will process all missions in PA until further notified.

           Accordingly, immediate action must be taken to remedy this situation and we must recommit ourselves to safety excellence, as follows:

1.         100% completion of Annual Safety Surveys CAPR 62-1 attachment 1 by all Squadron Units and Groups.  After the unit has completed the Annual Safety Survey, e-mail the PDF to PAWGCAP@AOL.COM or fax a copy of the completed form to PAWG HQ at 717-861-2164.

2.         All Squadron Units, Groups, and Wing members will submit a Safety Schedule of Events for FY08.  Please also e-mail or fax the Safety Schedule to PAWG HQ.

3.         100% completion of Air Force online Operational Risk Management (see attached file: 10 Second ORM.pdf).  After viewing the attachment reply to safetyinspection@pawingcap.com with your CAP ID and Name in the subject line.

4.         100% completion of inspection of all Corporate Vehicles in accordance with CAPR 77-1 and CAPF 73.  All Vehicle OIC's must fax the signed copy of form 73 to PAWG HQ

5.         100% completion of inspection of all Corporate Aircraft in accordance with CAPF 71.  All Aircraft OIC's must fax the signed copy of the form 71 to PAWG HQ

            To accomplish our goal of restoring mission activity as soon as possible, it is critical that we have all responses by close of business ( 5 p.m. ) Thursday April 17, 2008.

           We acknowledge that this is a difficult time for all the members of the Wing, but this is also the Wing's opportunity to refocus itself on safety.  It is critical to remember at this juncture that NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, is more important.  Remember as you complete the above requirements and exercises that safety training is not about checking a box or filling out a form, but rather about creating an operating environment that is safe not just for ourselves, but for our fellow members, friends, family and the Commonwealth.  Together we will succeed.  

Thank you for your support and your renewed dedication to our safety mission.  Your cooperation and prompt attention is anticipated.



Sincerely,



PAWG Command Staff and Group Commanders

Quote from: John Bryan on April 15, 2008, 02:52:48 PM
I think people are getting stuck on priority vs mission

Safety is not our mission .....our mission is AE, CP, and ES. Our 1st priority in those missions needs to be safety.

This is the same everywere. The poster at a Ford plant may say "Safety is job #1" but if you are so safe you never build a car , unemployment will be job #2. The mission is to build a car , but you have to do that safely or you will have poor labor relations, low production , and law suits out the #$#!

In CAP a lot of our support people have this problem. I know a lot of comm guys bless their hearts think those radio are their personel play things and forget way we have a comm program.

I think that's the best explanation of safety I've seen since the Mike Rowe (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3185.0) safety thread.

Quote from: FW on April 15, 2008, 02:47:37 AM
LT, thank you for your opinion.  However, I would suggest you add your name to the list of those who should take the ORM course.  Yes, all we do has risk.  Understand we take "acceptable" risk.  Everything we do, requires us to do it in the safest way possible.  To do otherwise is foolish and wrong.   
To repeat:" Safety IS Job 1."  Everything else follows suit.

If safety was job #1, I sure wouldn't be flying a 172, especially low and slow as in CAP.  Job #1 is completing missions in a safe way, which is entirely different than claiming safety is #1.

I think we've beat this horse (safely) to death.  Those that get it, great.  Those that don't, fine.  It doesn't matter how you phrase it.  It only matters that you be realistically safe in all you do.  

Let's get back to the topic.  PAWG is shut down because of the casual way the wing handles it's safety program.  It's a "culture" thing.  No matter how you want to phrase it,  safety is very important.  ORM needs to be practiced and our "culture" needs to be changed.  

Hopefully, it is just a paper issue. Although, having been through a paper-issue wing shut down, it's almost as bad as a real issue shut down. Once things come back on line, damage control will take months or years.

I think ALL Wings and in fact all units take note of this grounding.  There but for the grace of God go I........everyone needs to look at their own house right now and make sure that you are up to speed and can pass muster. 

This is a wake up call for everyone. If it can happen there, it can happen here.  Instead of argueing about what job #1 is....start checking to see if you are in compliance with the regs. Make sure your stuff is up to specs.

Now...carry on.

Quote from: jeders on April 15, 2008, 03:03:58 PM

Quote from: John Bryan on April 15, 2008, 02:52:48 PM
I think people are getting stuck on priority vs mission

Safety is not our mission .....our mission is AE, CP, and ES. Our 1st priority in those missions needs to be safety.

This is the same everywere. The poster at a Ford plant may say "Safety is job #1" but if you are so safe you never build a car , unemployment will be job #2. The mission is to build a car , but you have to do that safely or you will have poor labor relations, low production , and law suits out the #$#!

In CAP a lot of our support people have this problem. I know a lot of comm guys bless their hearts think those radio are their personel play things and forget way we have a comm program.

I think that's the best explanation of safety I've seen since the Mike Rowe (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3185.0) safety thread.

lol, I was thinking of that thread last night when the new season of Dirty Jobs started. On last night's episode Mike was working on an elevator and the guy he was working with from the company said "safety is #1" and Mike responded "well, top 5"

If you are active in CAP and have not made ORM a part of your everyday operation, you're not doing yourself, your unit, or those entrusted to you any favors.  ORM is easy, quick, and valuable.  Don't knock it until you try it.

Spend the time to understand the process, then put it to use.

Quote from: 1st Lt FAT and FUZZY on April 14, 2008, 09:03:00 PM
This is a mass email I received

Commanders,

Unfortunately I had to ground Pennsylvania Wing yesterday, because of there unsatisfactory in safety on there CI inspection. All aircraft and vehicles are grounded, all training and emergency missions are suspended. I am going to do every think in my power to get Pennsylvania up and running as fast as possible. I will be asking for your help to see this through and I know we can get this accomplished soon. I have asked Col Mull and Col Sirois to lead the way and resolve this ASAP. The issues in question has bin lingering for quit some time and it is no reflection on Col Lee.

Thank you
Col Robert Diduch
NER CC

Obviously, they grounded the wing because of the Wing Commanders inability to use a SPELL CHECKER...

...he sort of sounds like HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED...

That & ungrounded vehicles might be a problem.  >:D

I heard about this too. You think that running the Hawk Mountain Ranger School in spite of everything else is a good idea? Maybe it's not a smart idea.

Quote from: jpnelson82 on April 16, 2008, 08:57:20 AM
I heard about this too. You think that running the Hawk Mountain Ranger School in spite of everything else is a good idea? Maybe it's not a smart idea.

Well if PAWG is "Shut Down" then Hawk is "Shut Down".  What part of Nothing Moves do they not understand?

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 14, 2008, 08:02:38 PM

No worry kids the Hawk MTN person already said "Screw the AF, we are running the MTN whether they like it or not, everything is a go".

YAY! 

Mikey, I know this is not direct from you so please excuse me when I say this......

The above comment says it all about the CAP / USAF relationship to some people.

SHAME

Wingnut, PM Sent

Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on April 16, 2008, 09:09:53 AM

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 14, 2008, 08:02:38 PM

No worry kids the Hawk MTN person already said "Screw the AF, we are running the MTN whether they like it or not, everything is a go".

YAY! 

Mikey, I know this is not direct from you so please excuse me when I say this......

The above comment says it all about the CAP / USAF relationship to some people.

Quotes like the above, are just plain wrong.  And, not worth further comment since they probably were made in the heat of the moment.

However, Hawk Mt. is home to a NCSA and its staff comes from many wings.  There is no reason to stop the school.  They just need permision from the National Commander to procede if they are to use wing vehicles (including that bobcat).  

I posted the wing commander's letter to the members.  They expect to be back on station in a week or two.  

I would hope all members of CAP understand these issues and not exaggerate what's happening there.    Shame indeed on those who have agendas other than the betterment of ourselves and our organization.

^ Col......Hawk might be a NCSA, but it is not run by NHQ.  It is run, operated and funded by, for and through PAWG.  Its Staff is not as diverse as you think it is.  Most are from PAWG, and the finances (as you should know) are controlled by the Wing Financial Officer.  The way you make it sound is that HAWK is safe, but did anyone ever really check them out?  I have been there on the MTN when people got really hurt.  I have seen many questionable actions up there.   

PLUS, just because an activity might be a National Activity, it still comes down to where the activity takes place.  It has been shown that PAWG is unsafe. 

Also, until all Wing Members from the highest Colonel to the newest member complete that ORM read and submit their name to Wing HQ, nothing will happen.  So that could take months??

Quote from: FW on April 16, 2008, 11:17:06 AM

I posted the wing commander's letter to the members.  They expect to be back on station in a week or two. 

My concern with a week or two is that changing a culture takes much more time than a week or two to change.  My unit actually recently had a class on safety cultures using the Challenger explosion as the case study.  While it's certainly not quite comparing apples to apples, after an incident like that, NASA certainly doesn't just ground the fleet for a week or two.

Having worked with PAWG and PAWG members in the past, I think this will take much more than just aknowledging an e-mail and inspecting some equipment to truly correct.  Entire standard operating procedures need to be reviewed and changed.  I saw the SOP of a PAWG GT cause the team to get unecessarily separated on an actual search mission.  I was also scolded by a more junior GTL from PA for myself and my team not moving and driving fast enough (I was going the speed limit on winding mountain roads) on a search for a missing A/C.  Mind you, I had more incentive than most to move fast on that mission, as I personally knew the pilot and had flown in the A/C we were looking for.  These examples are just 2 indicators that it was only a matter of time before this culture rose to this level.

It's certainly a shame to see any wing get grounded, but while they are, PAWG should to take this time to seriously examine their practices and ingrain new practices to ensure they don't have to face this issue again.  I was a little discouraged by the letter from Col Lee asking for responses by the 4th day after being grounded.  To me that shows more of a concern for checking the boxes and less concern for truly trying to change a culture.

YMMV

^All good points.  Changing a culture takes months.  But, the wing needs to meet certain specific goals before getting permission to return to mission readiness.  Once these immediate goals are met, culture change will continue with specific long term goals which, I understand, will be identified and achieved.  Continued oversight by command at all levels must be SOP.  Members must continue to recognise their responsibilities and perform to acceptable levels.  I'm sure this can and will be done. 
I have no doubt that the members will rise to the occasion and be successful.

Any Wing that goes into a compliance inspection without making 100% sure that all the safety stuff is documented correctly is incredibly stupid and probably deserves to be shut down.  In my opinion, the Chief of Staff should personally look over all that paperwork several months out to ensure it is right and if I was Wing Commander, I'd look at it too.

Not that I think most of this safety paperwork is worth much, just that I have enough common sense to know that if it is wrong, there are going to be some repurcussions that I won't like. 

Dumb, dumb, dumb

I've been in a wing that was shut down for being stupid with logistics but later had three (count'em) three accidents in one year - nearly within six months.  One crash was a pilot/CFI check ride.  The CFI scared me a couple of times when I was his observer (I curtailed the mission and we went home - nothing happened).  The second was a (later discovered to be) unauthorized CD mission with two pilots and a sheriff's deputy in the back - too low, too slow, both pilots trying to be observers and no one flying the aircraft.  It ended up in a field with all three dead.  The third was an ELT mission with an instructor observer in the back seat, trainee observer in the front right, and a PIC who wouldn't let anyone call out the checklist.  He forgot to put the gear down (didn't read his own checklist) and had to apply full power to taxi.

The entire wing ignored everything in writing.  It was a flying club.  Outside of the cadet program there were hardly any uniforms.  Those who did wear them usually looked like crap.  Logistics, operational procedures, uniforms, military courtesies, you name it, it was all screwed up.  After the wing king, who had gotten them out of the log hole, got the ax, everything started to turn around, albeit slowly.  It just wasn't safety, it was professionalism.

Everything we do in the air involves risk.  Things like ORM attempt to attenuate the risk.  Lowering the risk is everyone's job.  What gets people killed is moving from risk to the gamble.  With a gamble, you are literally running against the averages - if you gamble long enough, you WILL lose.  Period.  It's only a matter of time.  With properly managed risk, you can count on an accident free career.

Professionalism = Managing Risk
Lack of professionalism = Gambling that will ultimately lead to bent aircraft, vehicles, and members.

PAWG was being unprofessional and gambling with their personnel.

GC

I was halfway expecting this. For a wing that can't even get a little thing like the proper color of tshirt under their BDU's right it tends to make one wonder what else they do wrong.

well at least us out in NJ get some extra missions   :D.

Yeah, I saw NJ is the first wing to have pulled any extra missions from this.  I'm wondering when I'm going to get a text message telling me to call AFRCC for something in PA myself.

Quote from: davidsinn on April 17, 2008, 12:55:16 AM
I was halfway expecting this. For a wing that can't even get a little thing like the proper color of tshirt under their BDU's right it tends to make one wonder what else they do wrong.

The Wing King just put out an email this past weekend explaining that the PAWG orange hats are to be "ranger rolled" or crushed, depending on the unit commander, and cites that since 39-1 does not say anything about crushing or rolling baseball hats, that its legal.  This was put out the same weekend that the Wing gets shut down.  So you can see where his priorities are. 

So, ya....we went from an almost OK Commander, to one that did not even email the membership once in almost 6 months after taking command.  As far as everyone saying he "inherited the problems of the wing", I call BS.  He was the Vice Commander, which means he well knew what the situation was before taking command.  HE may actually be the perpetrator behind the reasons the Wing got cited.   

Well Ohio was just put on standby to cover Western PA. We got your backs guys (and gals)!

QuoteHe was the Vice Commander, which means he well knew what the situation was before taking command.  HE may actually be the perpetrator behind the reasons the Wing got cited.

from people I talked to when I moved back up here, no one was excited to hear he was the next in line....but it wasnt like a 180...pretty much just the frying pan into the fire....

despite my obvious stake in the Ranger Program, nothing else excited me about returning to PA wing...after 10 years away and seeing how other wings run thier show, PA as a whole I have found to be behind the 8 ball....

mk

^ I've observed the workings of quite a few wings over the last few years and, I've not really found that much real difference from wing to wing.  PAWG operates as well as many if not most.

Ranger hats aside, PAWG's problem, IMHO, is a casual attitude on documentation.  And, a selective "laziness" when it comes to some safety items which could have become dangerous.  However, it seems many wings have the same attitude and may end up in Pa's predicament if not corrected in time.  

Yes, the wing/cc is responsible for the wing and its operation.  However, it takes the entire membership to screw the light bulb into the tail light of a van or to charge or replace an empty fire extinguisher(sic).  We're all in this together and we all need to reevaluate our day to day practices and improve in all we do.  This is not PAWG's problem it is all our problem.

Some interesting safety notes on PAWG:
The wing has not had a mission related fatality or serious injury in over 30 years.
No wing wide aircraft or vehicle maint. issues; ever.
Four Turner Awards in the last 11 years.

Quote from: sarmed1 on April 15, 2008, 03:49:50 AM
Slightly off topic...safety is job 1.

We have a fire department in my area where their safety officer responds reds lights and sirens to every call they are dispacted on (and its not a very safe vehicle operation the times I have seen him) under the theory that HE needs to be there to monitor safety.  Where this is an important job, me thinks not so important that I imagine he needs to risk his life and the publics by running code to every call just to monitor safety.  Somewhere I think this task should have failed an ORM assessment.

mk

Remember how I used to rant about those guys with blue lights and red lights. The key points in any safety program:

1) You are responsible for your own safety.
2) You are responsible to help your co workers safety.
3) Safety isn't job one it's job all i.e it's a function of all activities to reduce risk.
4) Risk can not be 100 % eliminated but it can be significantly reduced. This fact is supported by the concept of Paper cuts.

I noticed that when I was visiting up there, all the aircraft were placarded as grounded. Now I know why....

Anyone done a mission in PA yet?

Quote from: SarDragon on April 14, 2008, 08:45:34 PM
Why not do a swap - give PAWG to MER or GLR, and give MD and DE to NER?

Because NJ & NY Wings are needed to cover big portions of the PA mission coverage area....Nj has already done a couple of ELT missions.

Does anyone know how things are progressing in this matter?  :(

Quote from: tjaxe on April 21, 2008, 07:22:35 PM
Does anyone know how things are progressing in this matter?  :(

Don't know, except that at a special meeting at Group HQ yesterday, we found out that NYWG is covering large portions of northern PAWG.   Guess we'll find out if we get any calls from AFRCC.

Quote from: Pylon on April 22, 2008, 03:09:04 AM
Don't know, except that at a special meeting at Group HQ yesterday, we found out that NYWG is covering large portions of northern PAWG.   Guess we'll find out if we get any calls from AFRCC.

luckily, there is nothing in northern pennsylvania   >:D

Quoteuckily, there is nothing in northern pennsylvania   Evil

It's 'cause I left.  >:D

I wouldn't say nothing, Lake Wallenpaupack and snow are there. Remember the four seasons along I 80: almost winter, winter, just past winter, construction!

I TAKE OFFENSE!  I am in Northen Pennsylvania, almost New York, but definitely still under the Orange Hat!

As I've heard it, aircraft and vehicle inspections are complete.  However, only about 50% of the members in PAWG have completed "10 Sec. ORM"  and reported it.

Quote from: Tubacap on April 22, 2008, 10:51:00 AM
but definitely still under the Orange Hat!

hahahhah hahaha hahahaha   :clap:

Thats a good one Will!

 ???

50%????

We've been working for months on getting everyone up to date with OPSEC.   50% in one week, I don't think so. 

The wing staff sent emails to every address on record.  They got a 50% response rate within 1 week. 

^ They did?

Everyone I talk to say no such email came.  That would include Wing Staff and Group Staff and SQD Commanders. 

I never got the e-mail, I got the info from other sources.

mine came from the comm training list...nothing general

I got one and took the course too.  And I'm not associated with PAWG anymore.
:D

Quote from: FW on April 17, 2008, 11:07:50 AM
Some interesting safety notes on PAWG:
The wing has not had a mission related fatality or serious injury in over 30 years.
No wing wide aircraft or vehicle maint. issues; ever.
Four Turner Awards in the last 11 years.

So, hopefully the lesson learned here is that it doesn't matter what you did 30 years ago. 

You're only as good as your last safety inspection - and that's the way it should be. 

Hopefully the PAWG gets their act together and starts taking things a lot more seriously.   What's more, I hope other Wings are paying attention and ensure their houses in order too.

Quote from: 2d Lt Rudin on April 15, 2008, 01:29:10 AM

Quote from: 1st Lt FAT and FUZZY on April 14, 2008, 09:03:00 PM
This is a mass email I received                  C-

Commanders,

Unfortunately I had to ground Pennsylvania Wing yesterday, because of there their unsatisfactory grade in safety on theretheir CI inspection. All aircraft and vehicles are grounded, all training and emergency missions are suspended. I am going to do every thinkthing in my power to get Pennsylvania up and running as fast as possible. I will be asking for your help to see this through and I know we can get this accomplished soon. I have asked Col Mull and Col Sirois to lead the way and resolve this ASAP. The issues in question has bin been lingering for quitquite some time and it is not a reflection on Col Lee's leadership.

Thank you
Col Robert Diduch
NER CC

You would think the Region CC would have someone to proof read his official correspondence.

edit: And I really need to pay attention to that warning that comes up telling me there has been a new reply.

BTW, I agree with the comments above, although a C- is a bit generous.  That e-mail is an embarrassment.

What is the link to this ORM training? Im not in PAWG but Im interested in taking it anyway.

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 22, 2008, 07:40:14 PM
What is the link to this ORM training? Im not in PAWG but Im interested in taking it anyway.

Go to http://level2.cap.gov/visitors/programs/safety/orm.cfm then select ORM university.
To navigate there from CAP.gov go to Members / Safety / ORM

Quote from: Tubacap on April 22, 2008, 10:51:00 AM
I TAKE OFFENSE!  I am in Northen Pennsylvania, almost New York, but definitely still under the Orange Hat!

There's still time to escape before Colgan notices!

Apparently PAWGHQ is trying to trim the dead wood. I just got an email asking CC's about inactive members.

Quote from: flyerthom on April 23, 2008, 03:18:33 AM

Quote from: Tubacap on April 22, 2008, 10:51:00 AM
I TAKE OFFENSE!  I am in Northen Pennsylvania, almost New York, but definitely still under the Orange Hat!

There's still time to escape before Colgan notices!

Not going to happen.  I have my eye on him.  I need someone to keep the dates in the wing calendar so I can focus on freaking out about all the other information that I'm missing for the wing site.

Quote from: MattPHS2002 on April 23, 2008, 04:48:29 AM
Apparently PAWGHQ is trying to trim the dead wood. I just got an email asking CC's about inactive members.

Interesting observation, there is now and was when I was a member 20 years
ago several "paper" members, you see their name on paper , but no one quite
remembers who they are and what they did for CAP.

Quote from: JC004 on April 23, 2008, 06:41:34 AM
I have my eye on him. 

(http://www.focusmag.gr/id/files/2831/w_The%20Eye%20Of%20Sauron.jpg)

Quote from: A.Member on April 22, 2008, 05:56:03 PM

Quote from: FW on April 17, 2008, 11:07:50 AM
Some interesting safety notes on PAWG:
The wing has not had a mission related fatality or serious injury in over 30 years.
No wing wide aircraft or vehicle maint. issues; ever.
Four Turner Awards in the last 11 years.

So, hopefully the lesson learned here is that it doesn't matter what you did 30 years ago. 

You're only as good as your last safety inspection - and that's the way it should be. 

Hopefully the PAWG gets their act together and starts taking things a lot more seriously.   What's more, I hope other Wings are paying attention and ensure their houses in order too.

While I will say that there is a need for proper paperwork, and no excuse for not having it done, it would appear that the FACTS seem to bear out that there was not a safety issue in PAWG.

There was a safety PAPERWORK issue in PAWG.

which begs the question.....

how effective are mandatory monthly safety briefings at preventing safety issues?

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 18, 2008, 05:03:58 PM
Anyone done a mission in PA yet?

I didn't go on it, but our squadron had an ELT search there yesterday.

QuoteAs you may be aware, The United States Air Force has issued the directive that ALL PAWG field operations cease and desist for the time being. What started out as a grounding of aircraft and corporate vehicles has grown into a full scale suspension of emergency services activities. The current mandate is that Wing-wide complete compliance with Operational Risk Management (ORM) certification be achieved within the ranks of ALL active members.  If you have received the email notification or been briefed on a squadron level regarding the ORM mandate be advised that it is very serious and must be acted upon immediately!  Failure to comply jeopardizes the entire membership's ability to serve in any capacity. Participation is simple as reading the document attached (10 Second ORM.PDF) and sending a confirmation email to safetyinspection@pawingcap.com with your CAP ID and Name in the subject line.

In any event, the suspension also affects our operations at the Hawk Mountain Ranger School. THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER ACTIVITIES AT THE H.M.R.S. SCHOOL until the suspension is lifted per order of the Wing Commander and the USAF.  Please work together to contact everyone you know within the organization, and as a team help us get past this thing. Rescheduling of school events and training will follow

well answers that question.  I imagine the only thing that is allowed to occur would be squadron meetings.......

mk

^ Just got an email that the Wing Cadet Competition and color guard comp was canceled.  That SUCKS for CADETS that worked hard all year and now are going to miss the chance to compete at Region.  This was in no way Cadets fault.  Yet, they are being punished.

I say this because PAWG was going to take REGION this year!  So, you lucked out NYWG.......

My question is why isn't ORM required of all CAP members everywhere.  I haven't taken the course, but if it's that important to safety, why only require it when things get ugly. 

Current completion stats that were put out is 869 out of 2494 members.

This was an email sent out today on the situation in PAWG.

QuoteFirst let me thank all those who have responded to the recent flurry of demands by National to bring Pennsylvania Wing into compliance.

We are under an operational shut down. What that means is if some disaster were to happen right now and FEMA or PEMA or a local ES organization contacted us for our help, we would have to say NO! 

I see emails every day about squadrons planning family days, color guard meets, fund raisers etc.
I must tell you all that MUST be put on hold until we work out this problem with our membership.

I was sent a list this morning of all those in the Group who are in compliance and who are not.
I was shocked to see the names on the non compliant list. There are Squadron commanders, former squadron commanders, Deputy commanders, members of my own Group 1 staff, former Group Commanders,  current and former Safety officers...the list goes on.

THE TOP PRIORITY, THE ONLY THING ON YOUR CAP AGENDA MUST BE...ORM COMPLIANCE OF EVERY MEMBER!

After a lengthy phone conference between the Wing Command staff last night and the Group Commanders the following facts and remedies are before us.

Facts!

1. PAWING IS UNDER AN OPERATIONAL SHUT DOWN! Going into it's third week soon!

2. OF the approximately 2,200 members of PAWING so far only approx. 870 have complied with
    the ORM requirement.

3. The Operational shut down will NOT be lifted until we are in 100% compliance.

4. PAWING Commanders have an obligation to bring the Wing into 100% compliance ASAP by what ever means necessary.

Remedies!

We have until Midnight Sunday the 27th of April. or some or all of these remedies will be   
implemented. There is no other way!

1.  Contact every non-compliant member by phone and tell them how to accomplish the orm.
  (we have tried email for almost 2 weeks, it did get 35% response, but we need the other 65%.)

2.  Failing to complete by Sunday night, non compliant members can be transferred out of their   
     squadron or group into squadron 000.

3.  Non compliant squadrons can have their charter revoked.

4.  Some squadrons who lose enough members by their being sent to Sq.000, could fall below the
     15 member minimum and be reduced to a flight or closed.

Do these remedies seem drastic and harsh? Absolutely!

Is National giving PA Wing any choice but to comply? NO!

Do the group commanders and Wing staff understand what this will do to the squadrons in the wing, to their membership, to the morale of the cadets and new members? ..Oh yes! we understand completely. But PA WING is in a box and there is only one way out.
COMPLIANCE! WE MUST ACHIEVE IT by any means necessary. There is no choice but to act, and act decisively.

We have been sending emails out for two weeks marked "URGENT!" and "PRIORITY!" and yes some have responded , that is why we have 870 compliant members. But we must concentrate on the remaining 1330.

The wing Staff has shifted blame for thier failure in safety to the wing membership.  Shame on them!

Exactly.  While there are obviously a few others involved in the safety program out in the squadrons dropped the ball, making this ORM requirement for the entire membership is asinine.  What they should have done was make it mandatory for all wing and group commanders and staff and all squadron commanders and deputy commanders.  Once that was achieved, lift the operational ban and then give a reasonable period of time to get everyone else on board. 

Quote1.  Contact every non-compliant member by phone and tell them how to accomplish the orm.
  (we have tried email for almost 2 weeks, it did get 35% response, but we need the other 65%.)

...

We have been sending emails out for two weeks marked "URGENT!" and "PRIORITY!" and yes some have responded , that is why we have 870 compliant members. But we must concentrate on the remaining 1330.

When I get an E-mail marked "URGENT", it usually ends up in my Spam folder.

A Wing-wide call down should have been implemented as soon as they were grounded.  Wing staff calls Group staff, Group staff calls Squadron staff, Squadrons call all of their members.  It's the only way you're going to get anywhere near 100% compliance in a reasonable timeframe.

Since they can't run any activities right now, they might as well pick up the phone.  Heck, the Wing CC can even call members randomly to find out if they've completed the training.  Nothing says "oh crap, we're really in trouble!" like an out-of-the-blue call from the Wing King.

Complying with ORM on an individual member level seems as easy as falling off a log, but...

There are people everywhere (not just in PAWG) who don't have time to get things taken care of due to soccer-family syndrome, etc. Threatening to transfer members to Triple Zero is just plain wrong and PAWG leadership at all levels should be ashamed of themselves. The carrot is obviously being able to resume activity in the Wing, but to make the stick transferring members or eliminating their membership is totally inappropriate.  Makes one think that there might just be more wrong with PAWG than safety issues. Seems like the entire Wing might need a kick in its collective butt.  Nothing like leadership through threats when the leaders are the ones who have screwed things up.

After the dust settles this ORM exercise by PAWG may have inadvertently generated statistical data of nationwide import. Many of us have wondered (and argued) about what our actual "active" membership numbers are.  Looks right now like PAWG is running at about 35% active.   I suspect we'd see similar response trends in most of the larger and medium sized wings.  It's a heck of a way to trim the fat- like undergoing liposuction without anesthesia!  :o

This is news?

I would say that for any given unit 30% are active, 30% have valid reasons they can't be active but want to be associated with us and the rest are just informally resigned.

This is an embarrassment,
the worse case scenario for CAP, and all the other CAP WINGS need to do some self reflection on just what the real facts are with each wing. CAWG has 2,000 seniors, if we have approx. 35% active that gives us maybe 700 who are doing the job. That may be a realistic number. Certainly for those of us who are active , 700 may be a high number. Nontheless, we are being dishonest to our Air Force and the American people by telling everyone we have 50,000, 60,000 or 40,000 members supporting 'Missions for America.

I believe in transparency in Government, by not doing so it creates a false sense of readiness, and when the Ball goes up we fall flat on our face. This does a disservice to the comunity and to our heritage. Maybe we need to trim the fat, be more open and honest.

Does anyone know the frequency at which wings have been put on freeze? 

If I recall correctly, this same thing has happened to at least 2 other wings in the past 10 years.

It depends on the level of the freeze.  NCWG was on a freeze for logistics.  It darned near stopped everything like PAWG, but it was able to keep up searches, cadet tng, etc.

GC

I think PAWG is the 1st wing to be closed down for ALL missions.  I don't remember any other wing which was required to have 100% compliance for membership participation in anything.  

However, reading 1 email and sending a reply requires about 10 minutes of ones time.  If you can't do that, you probably don't have time for CAP.

So, with all things considered.  I guess the wing's leadership has decided on only having "active" members in squadrons;  the rest go to the"000" squadron.  This will drastically change the nature of the wing but, IMHO, it will be a more accurate picture of what goes on.   We'll know what the results are on Monday.

I don't think this will stop with PAWG.

I may be missing something, but here goes.  Is PAWG the only wing that is required to have completed ORM??  If not, we are all in trouble.  Having looked at ORM, if I was at the right place, it is not a 20 minute OPSEC type of course.  It appeared to be multi-level and looked to take a few hours to complete.  Also, one of the first concepts in ORM is to weigh the benefit versus the risk and make an intelligent decision whether the benefit outweighs the risk.  If this is a core concept of ORM, how do they explain closing a wing down for not taking a safety course??  I don't think anyone applied the concept of ORM and truly considered the benefit versus the risk when they shut down the PAWG.  I mean, the wing has an impressive safety record and little risk is involved, versus the loss of mission and membership over the requirement of taking a course that may or may not have benefit to a wing that has a good safety record.  Mission first, safety always, but you really don't need safety if you don't do the mission.  Am I confused on this whole thing??  Or is there more to it than just the ORM requirement??  Are all wings in danger of this??  I would think so.  When was this requirement made and by whom??       

Wings have and will get shutdown.

Wings could never train for ES missions, skimp on Aerospace Education, and blow off cadet programs; yet never get shut down. Wings are shut down for not succesfully passing their CAP-USAF evaluations.

Every two years they are evaluated by CAP-USAF for Operational Missions which look at  Emergency Services, Disaster Relief, Homeland Security and Counter Drug operations. A unsuccesful will shut down any wing operations- as in PA.

Every year CAP-USAF does a survey audit, and every 3-5 years a compliance inspection looking at accountibility for property and required administrative procedures. Although the larger compliance inspection looks at all areas and all missions, wings are placed on freeze generally for failing property management of supply, communications, aircraft maintenance, or vehicles. The penalty is a freeze on recieving new equipment graduated up to a a suspension of all wing operations for a repeat offender.

CAP-USAF also does regualr financial audits of wing finances. Wings can also be palced on a freeze for financial irregularities.

Succesful Hawk Mountains are not a required element.

Safety, Property Management, and Finances can suspend operations of a wing.

People are forgetting that a significant percentage of our membership does not have email at all.  This percentage probably varies by wing, but I suspect that a 35% response rate is probably close to half of those who have email an I wouldn't consider it any sort of reflection of "active" membership.

Quote from: capchiro on April 25, 2008, 11:05:36 AM
I may be missing something, but here goes.  Is PAWG the only wing that is required to have completed ORM??  If not, we are all in trouble.  Having looked at ORM, if I was at the right place, it is not a 20 minute OPSEC type of course.  It appeared to be multi-level and looked to take a few hours to complete.  Also, one of the first concepts in ORM is to weigh the benefit versus the risk and make an intelligent decision whether the benefit outweighs the risk.  If this is a core concept of ORM, how do they explain closing a wing down for not taking a safety course??  I don't think anyone applied the concept of ORM and truly considered the benefit versus the risk when they shut down the PAWG.  I mean, the wing has an impressive safety record and little risk is involved, versus the loss of mission and membership over the requirement of taking a course that may or may not have benefit to a wing that has a good safety record.  Mission first, safety always, but you really don't need safety if you don't do the mission.  Am I confused on this whole thing??  Or is there more to it than just the ORM requirement??  Are all wings in danger of this??  I would think so.  When was this requirement made and by whom??       

How can we say that overall, PAWG has an impressive safety record. Simply because this is the first time they have been grounded doesnt mean there havent been problems. I mean, werent they also grounded due to maintenance procedural problems with a/c and vehicles?  It seems to me that anyone who is involved actively in operations, not matter what how often they participate, should be required to complete ORM. So what if it takes a few hours? So do the ICS series courses. I think we could safely exempt lawyers and accountants and chaplains (no offense intended, what they do is very important). But why should any ground pounders or air crews not be have a working knowledge of risk management. In my opinion, ORM should be tacked on to professional development above Level I.

Quote from: RiverAux on April 25, 2008, 12:03:46 PM
People are forgetting that a significant percentage of our membership does not have email at all.  This percentage probably varies by wing, but I suspect that a 35% response rate is probably close to half of those who have email an I wouldn't consider it any sort of reflection of "active" membership.

Can you cite where you get the information that a "significant percentage of our membership" does not have email?  I have a hard time buying that one. And if by stretch of the imagination it is true, let 'em go to the public library and establish a free email account on yahoo, gmail or hotmail.  I really have a hard time with this statement. Heck, the cadets in my sqdn have IPhones that can do everything but cook pizzas and mix margaritas.

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 25, 2008, 01:03:32 PM

Quote from: RiverAux on April 25, 2008, 12:03:46 PM
People are forgetting that a significant percentage of our membership does not have email at all.  This percentage probably varies by wing, but I suspect that a 35% response rate is probably close to half of those who have email an I wouldn't consider it any sort of reflection of "active" membership.

Can you cite where you get the information that a "significant percentage of our membership" does not have email?  I have a hard time buying that one. And if by stretch of the imagination it is true, let 'em go to the public library and establish a free email account on yahoo, gmail or hotmail.  I really have a hard time with this statement.

About 10% of my unit members (cadet and senior) do not have email addresses on record with CAP. One member has not fully embraced "this new technological gimick", but has health issues, so we use other methods to get him the information. Some cadets' parents won't let them have an email address in CAP's records. Additionally, about 30% do not regularly (~twice/week) check their email.

QuoteHeck, the cadets in my sqdn have IPhones that can do everything but cook pizzas and mix margaritas.

The grown up versions will.  :angel:

I feel that the ORM page could easily break down to follow the position of those in ops.
- GTM/UDF, A/C, MBS: ORM intro (level 1)
- GBD/AOBD, Sq. /CC : mid level ORM course (level2)
IC, /CC above Sq : Level 3 ORM course.
It appears the Level 4 course is intended for Flag Officers and has no online exam

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 25, 2008, 03:37:55 AM
Complying with ORM on an individual member level seems as easy as falling off a log, but...

There are people everywhere (not just in PAWG) who don't have time to get things taken care of due to soccer-family syndrome, etc. Threatening to transfer members to Triple Zero is just plain wrong and PAWG leadership at all levels should be ashamed of themselves. The carrot is obviously being able to resume activity in the Wing, but to make the stick transferring members or eliminating their membership is totally inappropriate.  Makes one think that there might just be more wrong with PAWG than safety issues. Seems like the entire Wing might need a kick in its collective butt.  Nothing like leadership through threats when the leaders are the ones who have screwed things up.

Sorry man...but this is EXACTLY what PAWG, and the rest of CAP, needs. Get serious or get out. Period.

[darnit] I have quit other activities to invest time and money into making sure I am operationally ready and capable. Even with just one year in I am getting tired of hearing "well I have to take Suzy to piano, Johnny to soccer, and then there is the yard that needs mowing, and...etc, etc."

While it is true that we are an organization that relies on volunteers, it is a professional organization with serious missions. If you cannot "play" than you cannot play. However to hang on to the outskirts, to show up when you can but not keep yourself ready, when you cannot do something as simple as take a couple of weeknight evenings to finish something that MUST be done to get operational again...well then perhaps you do not have the time to appropriately commit yourself to CAP.

I am in the quality over quantity crowd.

QuoteThis is an embarrassment,
the worse case scenario for CAP, and all the other CAP WINGS need to do some self reflection on just what the real facts are with each wing. CAWG has 2,000 seniors, if we have approx. 35% active that gives us maybe 700 who are doing the job. That may be a realistic number. Certainly for those of us who are active , 700 may be a high number. Nontheless, we are being dishonest to our Air Force and the American people by telling everyone we have 50,000, 60,000 or 40,000 members supporting 'Missions for America.

I believe in transparency in Government, by not doing so it creates a false sense of readiness, and when the Ball goes up we fall flat on our face. This does a disservice to the comunity and to our heritage. Maybe we need to trim the fat, be more open and honest.

When Iowa took a long hard look at truly operational numbers, and supported the concept of a leaner CAP the general membership of this forum revolted, and said that the wing was failing, and under poor leadership. 

It's all perspective

Quote from: LittleIronPilot on April 25, 2008, 03:54:38 PM

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 25, 2008, 03:37:55 AM
Complying with ORM on an individual member level seems as easy as falling off a log, but...

There are people everywhere (not just in PAWG) who don't have time to get things taken care of due to soccer-family syndrome, etc. Threatening to transfer members to Triple Zero is just plain wrong and PAWG leadership at all levels should be ashamed of themselves. The carrot is obviously being able to resume activity in the Wing, but to make the stick transferring members or eliminating their membership is totally inappropriate.  Makes one think that there might just be more wrong with PAWG than safety issues. Seems like the entire Wing might need a kick in its collective butt.  Nothing like leadership through threats when the leaders are the ones who have screwed things up.

Sorry man...but this is EXACTLY what PAWG, and the rest of CAP, needs. Get serious or get out. Period.

[darnit] I have quit other activities to invest time and money into making sure I am operationally ready and capable. Even with just one year in I am getting tired of hearing "well I have to take Suzy to piano, Johnny to soccer, and then there is the yard that needs mowing, and...etc, etc."

While it is true that we are an organization that relies on volunteers, it is a professional organization with serious missions. If you cannot "play" than you cannot play. However to hang on to the outskirts, to show up when you can but not keep yourself ready, when you cannot do something as simple as take a couple of weeknight evenings to finish something that MUST be done to get operational again...well then perhaps you do not have the time to appropriately commit yourself to CAP.

I am in the quality over quantity crowd.

I value quality over quantity as well, but when you have volunteers who shell out a great deal of money for the privilege of volunteering, you have to be realistic. And when an entire wing goes so far down the toilet safety wise as to be put on lock down, the leadership should be taking a good hard look at itself and not threatening the membership. Further, I know members of the PAWG who feel that they exist in to support "The Mountain" in one way or another. Perhaps it is time not to threaten the membership but for a Wing wide leadership attitude adjustment, which is just what is happening now.

Quote from: wingnut on April 25, 2008, 06:37:25 AM
This is an embarrassment,
the worse case scenario for CAP, and all the other CAP WINGS need to do some self reflection on just what the real facts are with each wing. CAWG has 2,000 seniors, if we have approx. 35% active that gives us maybe 700 who are doing the job. That may be a realistic number. Certainly for those of us who are active , 700 may be a high number. Nontheless, we are being dishonest to our Air Force and the American people by telling everyone we have 50,000, 60,000 or 40,000 members supporting 'Missions for America.

I believe in transparency in Government, by not doing so it creates a false sense of readiness, and when the Ball goes up we fall flat on our face. This does a disservice to the comunity and to our heritage. Maybe we need to trim the fat, be more open and honest.

I don't know if 35% is absolutely accurate. I'd give any wing the benefit of the doubt for another 5% or so. It's not 50%, I think we're generally agreed on that though.

Someone cited california numbers... 2000 SMs, 35% is 700 active.... now break that down by the percentage of those active members that are qualified & active in ES, maybe 50%. So, 350 ES personnel to cover the state of CA? Now look at the geographic distribution. Do we have personnel to man an ICP, ACs, & all adult GTs enough to fill the geographic blocks the AF defines in the comm TA? Working those numbers, it's not remotely possible.

So, I agree strongly that we have to face reality & get real active participation/attendance numbers which are cross-ref'd to active ES participation. I think resources (vans/planes/radios/funding/etc) should be distributed with that new information. I think we need to help those trouble spots fix the situation. Just overall you can't fix things if you don't face them.

That said, a full out exposure of this situation to congress would result in CAP being shut down. Or at least funding being cut to a level at which we cannot operate. I hope these issues in PAWG & elsewhere do bring this issue to the front.

QuoteCan you cite where you get the information that a "significant percentage of our membership" does not have email?

Take a look at the capwatch download for your unit and see how many members have any email listed.  Then try to send an email to everyone in your unit based on those emails and see how many are invalid.  The percentage of those without email is going down, but it is still there.

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 25, 2008, 06:59:08 PM

I value quality over quantity as well, but when you have volunteers who shell out a great deal of money for the privilege of volunteering, you have to be realistic. And when an entire wing goes so far down the toilet safety wise as to be put on lock down, the leadership should be taking a good hard look at itself and not threatening the membership. Further, I know members of the PAWG who feel that they exist in to support "The Mountain" in one way or another. Perhaps it is time not to threaten the membership but for a Wing wide leadership attitude adjustment, which is just what is happening now.

Why does that Wing CC still have a job? If I was NER CC I would have canned the entire wing staff on the spot.

Quote from: davidsinn on April 26, 2008, 02:45:29 AM

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 25, 2008, 06:59:08 PM

I value quality over quantity as well, but when you have volunteers who shell out a great deal of money for the privilege of volunteering, you have to be realistic. And when an entire wing goes so far down the toilet safety wise as to be put on lock down, the leadership should be taking a good hard look at itself and not threatening the membership. Further, I know members of the PAWG who feel that they exist in to support "The Mountain" in one way or another. Perhaps it is time not to threaten the membership but for a Wing wide leadership attitude adjustment, which is just what is happening now.

Why does that Wing CC still have a job? If I was NER CC I would have canned the entire wing staff on the spot.

Because if you beat the puppy too badly the poor thing dies. The hit the Wing took was bad enough. Beheading the "Orange Beast" in addition to that would be a wound PAWG might never recover from.

Quote from: RiverAux on April 25, 2008, 10:52:50 PM

QuoteCan you cite where you get the information that a "significant percentage of our membership" does not have email?

Take a look at the capwatch download for your unit and see how many members have any email listed.  Then try to send an email to everyone in your unit based on those emails and see how many are invalid.  The percentage of those without email is going down, but it is still there.

An even better way is to compare the number of names you get in the generated email address list with the listed member count on your eServices home page. Mine has a difference of 2. Only one of the listed addresses bounces, and I haven't seem him in seven years.

THE TOP PRIORITY, THE ONLY THING ON YOUR CAP AGENDA MUST BE...ORM COMPLIANCE OF EVERY MEMBER!


Do these remedies seem drastic and harsh? Absolutely!

Is National giving PA Wing any choice but to comply? NO!

Do the group commanders and Wing staff understand what this will do to the squadrons in the wing, to their membership, to the morale of the cadets and new members? ..Oh yes! we understand completely. But PA WING is in a box and there is only one way out.
COMPLIANCE! WE MUST ACHIEVE IT by any means necessary. There is no choice but to act, and act decisively.

We have been sending emails out for two weeks marked "URGENT!" and "PRIORITY!" and yes some have responded , that is why we have 870 compliant members. But we must concentrate on the remaining 1330.
[/quote]

The wing Staff has shifted blame for thier failure in safety to the wing membership.  Shame on them!
[/quote]

They have NOT shifted the blame! ....there is no "blame" here to shift.  There is a directive from National that we all must comply with the ORM directive. What Wing Command has an obligation to do is get the ban lifted on on PA WNG ASAP. SO all the events, missions, cadet activities and most importantly ACTUAL MISSIONS that come up.

It is not punitive to move inactive or unresponsive members to squadron 000 it is just prudent to get the ban lifted. They fully understand there are members away on vacations, honymoons, job assignments, college, deployments , in the hospital...dozens of valid reasons for non compliance. But as long as National is playing "hard ball" and insists on 100% compliance....Wing is absolutely right to do what ever is necessary to get us up and running again. Those members can get back out of SQ 000 by simply doing the required ORM training when they can.

Why does every one think they are being punished when they are simply being asked to comply with a safety course??? 

Being told to do a course that no other Wing in the country has to do is a punishment that will not address the paperwork issues that got them into trouble and are the responsibility of a small number of members.  However, its national, not the Wing, that is directing the punishment. 

Quote from: RiverAux on April 26, 2008, 07:50:27 PM
Being told to do a course that no other Wing in the country has to do is a punishment that will not address the paperwork issues that got them into trouble and are the responsibility of a small number of members.  However, its national, not the Wing, that is directing the punishment. 

WHo is to say PA is not just the first Wing to have to comply with this directive. I would submit that when the Air Force gets to your state you better be ready.

PA has had a sterling safety record for over a decade. No air crashes or van crashes for years other than perhaps the sprained ankle on a ground team or a bee sting and yes a van or two has probably backed into a fence post here and there, but I mean serious bodily injury or deaths.

So this whole thing was over the lack of up to speed paperwork. Some here have said they wouldn't send their cadets to Hawk Mountain since PA can't keep the "turn signal bulbs changed" I doubt that person could make it htrough the Hawk Program. I have done the course several times and there is none better anywhere in the country.

I  truely believe national has shot form the hip on this one and never weighed the consiquences. PA will probably lose a few hundred members over this, and it wasn't even necessary.

If the course is really all that great, then it should be made a national requirement.  If not, it can only be viewed as a punishment for those that have sinned against the gods of unnecessary paperwork.

Quote from: davidsinn on April 15, 2008, 01:54:10 AM
That's $1,000 in diamond plate right there. Plus $200 in JD seats. The terms "fraud, waste and abuse" come to mind

THAT is A POV....do you really think PA WING would go for that??

Get real...I can't even get money for a copy machine!

Quote from: Major Carrales on April 15, 2008, 02:27:25 AM
Let's not take shots at the PA Wing right now, they are obviously "down" and it could happen to your Wing or anyone's Wing.   Let's just wish them well and hope they can get past this.

Major Carrales...you are an officer and a gentleman.  Thank you for your understanding and kind words of support.

There are hindreds of dedicated men and women and cadets who serve in PA Wing and frankly deserve to be treated better than National has chosen to do.

Simply because some paperwork was misplaced they have mandated a daunting task for ANY organization to fulfill.. I doubt if even the Air oce could boast 100% compliance in any given area of concern. 

The statistic of 35% compliance has been tossed around here in this forum lately...I can tell you that was a week ago and PA is nearing 70% compliance since then.

I hope this PLAGUE is not visited upon other Wings in the Country, I would hate to see this cluster repeated!

Quote from: RiverAux on April 26, 2008, 08:15:25 PM
If the course is really all that great, then it should be made a national requirement.  If not, it can only be viewed as a punishment for those that have sinned against the gods of unnecessary paperwork.

The course is helpful but the SAREX's and Pilot training that has been cancelled because of this shut down is FAR MORE PRODUCTIVE than any written safety course.

As I said, I am not privy to the "politics" at work here, but A few causes to this action could be traced to some well known players...er..does Applebaum or Larry Kauffman ring a bell????  Any bruised Ego's in the house?  Hummmm?

Alpha i don't know who you are, but lets refrain from talking smack while throwing out names.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me you are itching for a fight.

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 26, 2008, 09:05:11 PM
Alpha i don't know who you are, but lets refrain from talking smack while throwing out names.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me you are itching for a fight.

You would be surprised "who I am". That's why I must remain annonymous.

But I have been in CAP more than half the time you have been on the planet.

So I am sure you know much more about "Smack" than I ever will.

As for your statement...

I would welcome a "fight" with these two... but the time and place has yet to present itself.

Quote from: Alpha on April 26, 2008, 08:37:07 PM
The course is helpful but the SAREX's and Pilot training that has been cancelled because of this shut down is FAR MORE PRODUCTIVE than any written safety course

Pay to play has always been the standard. You know very well you don't go flying without adequate flight planning, checklists, etc. This is not civilian general aviation. This is use of taxpayer resources is a safe, efficient, and preservable way.

Safety training at it's root is not all that useful, and that's not generally the point. The point is forced compliance with rules. If you can't or won't comply with the paperwork then you very likely will ignore the rules in action when it suits you. That's unacceptable.

Other then that, play nice!!

Quote from: DNall on April 26, 2008, 09:26:15 PM

Quote from: Alpha on April 26, 2008, 08:37:07 PM
The course is helpful but the SAREX's and Pilot training that has been cancelled because of this shut down is FAR MORE PRODUCTIVE than any written safety course

Pay to play has always been the standard. You know very well you don't go flying without adequate flight planning, checklists, etc. This is not civilian general aviation. This is use of taxpayer resources is a safe, efficient, and preservable way.

Safety training at it's root is not all that useful, and that's not generally the point. The point is forced compliance with rules. If you can't or won't comply with the paperwork then you very likely will ignore the rules in action when it suits you. That's unacceptable.

Other then that, play nice!!

Point well said and taken! You are correct in many ways, however there is the old "cutting off ones nose to spite their face" addage.  I believe we have a little of that happening here where PA WING Shut down is concerned. There certainly more productive and far less disruptive methods of going about this mandate.

Quote from: Alpha on April 26, 2008, 09:34:20 PM
Point well said and taken! You are correct in many ways, however there is the old "cutting off ones nose to spite their face" addage.  I believe we have a little of that happening here where PA WING Shut down is concerned. There certainly more productive and far less disruptive methods of going about this mandate.

I'm sure that is the case at the member level, but I can assure you this kind of thing is not done lightly. It is a measured response. If the wing could have been forced to comply by a lesser means then that would have been taken. However, if operations continue as normal then leadership can shuffle some paper around & you're back in business as before w/o significant oversight. That doesn't fix the problem.

While I understand you don't like the situation, and may even feel the AF/NHQ is over-reacting. I can assure you there is another very reasonable logical point of view on the other end of that decision. I would respectfully ask you to work within the system to fix the situation as expeditiously as possible, then move out & carry on with the mission as hopefully a new & better wing.

Please explain the logic of threatening to shut down units for failure to comply with a punishment being imposed on the Wing when these individual units may not have had anything to do with the safety issues that brought on this crisis? 

While such threats should be directed at the applicable commanders and staff officers, the majority of individual members had nothing to do with it, and I suspect, the majority of units did what they were supposed to do.  Now, because of something that somebody else did their very existence is being threatened if they don't scramble to meet this requirement. 

No logic to any of that.

A commander is responsible for all his command does or fails to do, period.

Wings are the basic management unit of CAP. That's the lowest level corporate officer. That's the level that gets inspected. That's the level that gets alerted to deploy assets for a mission. Whatever happens or doesn't happen is going to occur at the Wing level.

If you wanted to go up & down the chain targeting individuals responsible for problems & determining their degree of responsibility then you'd have a hundred year witch hunt on your hands. Don't fix the blame, fix the problem.

This is an institutional issue within the Wing. If a unit is already on the ball, then they have very little to do now but wait for the rest of the Wg to catch up. If not, then they have the opportunity now to get up to speed.

This whole thing isn't a big deal. I know it seems like it is, and I certainly hope the message is taken seriously for deep and long-term change. But, getting back on track is not something that's going to take a really long time or significantly harm the organization. They just need to get it done & move on.

Quote from: DNall on April 26, 2008, 09:48:02 PM

Quote from: Alpha on April 26, 2008, 09:34:20 PM
Point well said and taken! You are correct in many ways, however there is the old "cutting off ones nose to spite their face" addage.  I believe we have a little of that happening here where PA WING Shut down is concerned. There certainly more productive and far less disruptive methods of going about this mandate.

I'm sure that is the case at the member level, but I can assure you this kind of thing is not done lightly. It is a measured response. If the wing could have been forced to comply by a lesser means then that would have been taken. However, if operations continue as normal then leadership can shuffle some paper around  & you're back in business as before w/o significant oversight. That doesn't fix the problem.

While I understand you don't like the situation, and may even feel the AF/NHQ is overreacting. I can assure you there is another very reasonable logical point of view on the other end of that decision.  I would respectfully ask you to work within the system to fix the situation as expeditiously as possible, then move out & carry on with the mission as hopefully a new & better wing.

Now you are starting to sound like a bureaucrat or politician.  You see there really was no "problem" only a perceived one. Due to the paperwork oversight. If there had been accidents and plane mishaps and injuries all over the place...then fine...this action is appropriate. But that couldn't be farther from the truth. PA WING has a very good safety record, even taking the national award for safety twice in the last 8 years.

No...you can not convince me this "OVER REACTION " was warrented.  It has become an unjustified, punitive action that will cost the hard working members in PA , time, money, morale, and members.

There were many options available to National short of an operational shut down. It is frankly preposterous!

Gentlemen, the goal here is "culture change".  Every member needs to understand this concept.  The requirement for every member of PAWG to respond to the "10 second ORM" article is not a hardship.  However, it is a start.  It gets our attention.  It forces us to think.  No one is forced to comply but, there is a consequence to inaction.  And, there is a recourse to the action.  It's fair, it's simple and it's right.  

This, IMHO, is not about who or why anymore.  It's about coming together as a team.  I truly hope the members of PAWG will succeed in this endeavour.  

Monday, we will know the results.

Quote from: Alpha on April 26, 2008, 09:20:44 PM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 26, 2008, 09:05:11 PM
Alpha i don't know who you are, but lets refrain from talking smack while throwing out names.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me you are itching for a fight.

You would be surprised "who I am". That's why I must remain annonymous.

But I have been in CAP more than half the time you have been on the planet.

So I am sure you know much more about "Smack" than I ever will.

As for your statement...

I would welcome a "fight" with these two... but the time and place has yet to present itself.

Easy Alpha. 

You've got to remember that with any additional requirement that you put on people. no matter how minor or easy to accomplish, you're going to lose some people for whom it is just the last straw.  Therefore, whenever you put a requirement on a CAP volunteer you've got to make sure that the benefits of having most people accomplish it outweight the costs of losing some members over it and then link that to your justification for doing it in the first place.  

QuoteIf you wanted to go up & down the chain targeting individuals responsible for problems & determining their degree of responsibility then you'd have a hundred year witch hunt on your hands. Don't fix the blame, fix the problem

Nope, not hard at all.  The CI would have identified specific problems caused by a lack of performance by particular staff officers or commanders (Squadron X didn't turn in their safety survey, so the safety officer and commander of Squadron X are responsible).  

Don't get me wrong -- if we assume that this ORM has some value, perhaps it should be required of all members.  However, the proper thing to do would be to phase it in over a reasonable period of time rather than preventing the Wing from doing anything until it was compliant.  

Quote from: RiverAux on April 26, 2008, 11:06:34 PM
You've got to remember that with any additional requirement that you put on people. no matter how minor or easy to accomplish, you're going to lose some people for whom it is just the last straw.  Therefore, whenever you put a requirement on a CAP volunteer you've got to make sure that the benefits of having most people accomplish it outweight the costs of losing some members over it and then link that to your justification for doing it in the first place.  

These comments are very true.  But what's the point?  We lose members every day for many reasons.  The requirement is on the wing membership; true.  But, so is proper uniform wear, etc.  It's not a "burden",  it's a responsibility.   I would go so far as to say every member of CAP has the same responsibility as in PAWG.   I'm not going to wait for the "command",  I've made the commitment and I would hope all would do the same.

As I've said before, this is not just PAWG's problem.  I would suggest we all be proactive and start taking things just a little more responsibly.  

A lack of accidents doesn't mean you're operating safely. It can mean a lot of things.

The accident rate in General Aviation isn't all that high. If your members are following the FAA but not the additional CAP rules then you'd expect the accident rate to be in line with that - which means you could operate for years without an accident.

Our safety rules aren't just about safety. We use the taxpayers resources to perform missions for the govt. That means we're entrusted with the public trust. Protecting those assets (including people - or rather preventing the financial risk of harming people) is a big part of why we do this additional safety work.

And then there's one more item, and this is pure speculation on my part. What if safety isn't the only issue. What if it's the one thing they can shut you down over, but a broader attitude of non-compliance exists institutionally. Maybe that's orange hats, and maybe that's what orange hats represent, which is willful disregard of rules. That's not the cause, and it may not have entered the thought process, but it's possible it was a contributing factor in the severity of the restriction to ensure compliance by a Wing with frankly a bad record of doing what it's told & playing as part of the team.

In the big picture, it doesn't matter what you or I think. What matters is this is the restriction & conditions to lift it. You can complain about the sanity of the decision, but that won't change anything. What will change it is compliance, and the quicker the better. The best way to ensure rapid compliance is not to encourage complaints that may lead to slow or protest non-compliance & the morale problems you mention, but rather to accept the situation, salute & execute with a smile & optimistic attitude about how this will make the wing better. Even if it's BS, it sells to the people around you & that gets you back in business faster.

Quote from: RiverAux on April 26, 2008, 11:06:34 PM
You've got to remember that with any additional requirement that you put on people. no matter how minor or easy to accomplish, you're going to lose some people for whom it is just the last straw.  Therefore, whenever you put a requirement on a CAP volunteer you've got to make sure that the benefits of having most people accomplish it outweight the costs of losing some members over it and then link that to your justification for doing it in the first place.

I absolutely reject that logic, and I'll tell you why. The pure cold math is we have a horrible turnover rate. No matter what you do you're going to lose most members within 1-3 years, and they'll be replaced by someone new just as quickly.

You can look at that as glass is half-empty... CAP can abuse the crap out of membership with few consequences; hence regular uniform changes, etc.

Or, you can look at that glass is half-full... I can completely disregard retention as I make positive program changes, cause most will leave & be replaced anyway.

Both cases are true to some extent. Honestly, I think CAP leadership too much abuses the half-empty aspect of that w/o taking full advantage of the half-full aspect. That's a leadership failure on their part.

Quote

QuoteIf you wanted to go up & down the chain targeting individuals responsible for problems & determining their degree of responsibility then you'd have a hundred year witch hunt on your hands. Don't fix the blame, fix the problem

Nope, not hard at all.  The CI would have identified specific problems caused by a lack of performance by particular staff officers or commanders (Squadron X didn't turn in their safety survey, so the safety officer and commander of Squadron X are responsible). 

Don't get me wrong -- if we assume that this ORM has some value, perhaps it should be required of all members.  However, the proper thing to do would be to phase it in over a reasonable period of time rather than preventing the Wing from doing anything until it was compliant. 

[/quote]

Again, it's always wrong to fix the blame while the problem persists. People make mistakes, that doesn't meant they aren't the best leader/staffer to fix the problem. It's a command judgment if you have the right team for the current mission or not. If they feel changes need to be made in order to accomplish this, then by all means they need the right people for the job sitting in the appropriate chairs. Any fault for what happen has to be assessed after the fact, and in proportion to the mistake.

If you're directly complaining about the nature of the requirements to get off this restriction, that's really out of your lane. They placed them on restriction, they set conditions to get off restriction. All that matters right now is salute & execute with enthusiasm. After this is over with then those issues can be addressed more thoughtfully. I don't personally know what the situation on the ground is, so I can't comment on ORM being the right corrective training response or not. I don't think most people within the wing are in a position to make that judgment.

Oh, I believe I surely can say that this punishment imposed by national and that Wing has threatened to disband squadrons over it is way out of proportion to the offense.

Now, I am just fine with stopping PA Wing activities over these offenses.  However, the proper way to get out of the mess is to fix the specific problems that were identified, not impose a new requirement for which there is no way on earth for the Wing to get compliant with in a reasonable period of time and not let them do something until they comply.     

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 26, 2008, 11:05:58 PM

Quote from: Alpha on April 26, 2008, 09:20:44 PM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 26, 2008, 09:05:11 PM
Alpha i don't know who you are, but lets refrain from talking smack while throwing out names.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me you are itching for a fight.

You would be surprised "who I am". That's why I must remain annonymous.

But I have been in CAP more than half the time you have been on the planet.

So I am sure you know much more about "Smack" than I ever will.

As for your statement...

I would welcome a "fight" with these two... but the time and place has yet to present itself.

Easy Alpha. 

Oh Mikey....your so Kind..... almost full of Kindness;)

Quote from: FW on April 15, 2008, 03:47:41 AM
Well said.  For those who still don't understand this concept.  Take the ORM course.  For those "youngsters" among us who feel that "gung ho" urge to climb that hill during an ice storm or get into that Cessna to find an ELT during a thunderstorm, or take those 16 cadets in a 15 pass. van to the airshow.  I say, "Welcome to the Darwin Awards". 
Tunnel vision; no.  Thoughtfulness and common sense; yes.  Safety; always. 
This and proper documentation will keep your wing from PAWG's predicament. 

Darwin Awards of/for Aviation....

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/callback.html (http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/callback.html)

Quote from: Alpha on April 26, 2008, 07:44:05 PM

THE TOP PRIORITY, THE ONLY THING ON YOUR CAP AGENDA MUST BE...ORM COMPLIANCE OF EVERY MEMBER!


Do these remedies seem drastic and harsh? Absolutely!

Is National giving PA Wing any choice but to comply? NO!

Do the group commanders and Wing staff understand what this will do to the squadrons in the wing, to their membership, to the morale of the cadets and new members? ..Oh yes! we understand completely. But PA WING is in a box and there is only one way out.
COMPLIANCE! WE MUST ACHIEVE IT by any means necessary. There is no choice but to act, and act decisively.

We have been sending emails out for two weeks marked "URGENT!" and "PRIORITY!" and yes some have responded , that is why we have 870 compliant members. But we must concentrate on the remaining 1330.

The wing Staff has shifted blame for thier failure in safety to the wing membership.  Shame on them!
[/quote]

They have NOT shifted the blame! ....there is no "blame" here to shift.  There is a directive from National that we all must comply with the ORM directive. What Wing Command has an obligation to do is get the ban lifted on on PA WNG ASAP. SO all the events, missions, cadet activities and most importantly ACTUAL MISSIONS that come up.

It is not punitive to move inactive or unresponsive members to squadron 000 it is just prudent to get the ban lifted. They fully understand there are members away on vacations, honymoons, job assignments, college, deployments , in the hospital...dozens of valid reasons for non compliance. But as long as National is playing "hard ball" and insists on 100% compliance....Wing is absolutely right to do what ever is necessary to get us up and running again. Those members can get back out of SQ 000 by simply doing the required ORM training when they can.

Why does every one think they are being punished when they are simply being asked to comply with a safety course??? 
[/quote]

They are not moving members to Triple Zeros to obtain compliance, they are doing it so that they have fewer active members that they have to get into compliance by tonight. Its like any company having a mandatory safety training that is taking them too long...they just adjust their time frame and compliance requirements by firing people. But you're right...they aren't giving the members the shaft because they couldnt keep air frames and trucks in working order.  ;)

PAWG CC said:

Quote

Remedies!

We have until Midnight Sunday the 27th of April. or some or all of these remedies will be   
implemented. There is no other way!

1.  Contact every non-compliant member by phone and tell them how to accomplish the orm.
  (we have tried email for almost 2 weeks, it did get 35% response, but we need the other 65%.)

2.  Failing to complete by Sunday night, non compliant members can be transferred out of their   
     squadron or group into squadron 000.

3.  Non compliant squadrons can have their charter revoked.

4.  Some squadrons who lose enough members by their being sent to Sq.000, could fall below the
     15 member minimum and be reduced to a flight or closed.

Do these remedies seem drastic and harsh? Absolutely!

We said:

Quote

It is not punitive to move inactive or unresponsive members to squadron 000 it is just prudent to get the ban lifted.

But as long as National is playing "hard ball" and insists on 100% compliance....Wing is absolutely right to do what ever is necessary to get us up and running again. Those members can get back out of SQ 000 by simply doing the required ORM training when they can.

They are not moving members to Triple Zeros to obtain compliance, they are doing it so that they have fewer active members that they have to get into compliance by tonight.

I chopped and swapped quotes from a few people, not meant to single anyone out.....

My Opinion:

Moving un cooperative members to the 000 Squadron is exactly seeking compliance through transfer.

Utilize this line of thinking....."out of sight out of mind"

Wing deficiencies are Wing Command's problems. The fish stinks from the head down...or in this case from the orange ball cap down.

Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on April 27, 2008, 06:15:56 AM
PAWG CC said:

Quote

Remedies!

We have until Midnight Sunday the 27th of April. or some or all of these remedies will be   
implemented. There is no other way!

1.  Contact every non-compliant member by phone and tell them how to accomplish the orm.
  (we have tried email for almost 2 weeks, it did get 35% response, but we need the other 65%.)

2.  Failing to complete by Sunday night, non compliant members can be transferred out of their  
    squadron or group into squadron 000.

3.  Non compliant squadrons can have their charter revoked.

4.  Some squadrons who lose enough members by their being sent to Sq.000, could fall below the
     15 member minimum and be reduced to a flight or closed.

Do these remedies seem drastic and harsh? Absolutely!

We said:

Quote

It is not punitive to move inactive or unresponsive members to squadron 000 it is just prudent to get the ban lifted.

But as long as National is playing "hard ball" and insists on 100% compliance....Wing is absolutely right to do what ever is necessary to get us up and running again. Those members can get back out of SQ 000 by simply doing the required ORM training when they can.

They are not moving members to Triple Zeros to obtain compliance, they are doing it so that they have fewer active members that they have to get into compliance by tonight.

I chopped and swapped quotes from a few people, not meant to single anyone out.....

My Opinion:

Moving un cooperative members to the 000 Squadron is exactly seeking compliance through transfer.

Utilize this line of thinking....."out of sight out of mind"

No Not "out of sight out of mind" .... Out of compliance, out of squadron.

They ( National ) have mandated 100% compliance. What is PA WING supposed to do with several hundred members who for what ever reason can not be reached quickly or who have been reached and do not bother to take serious the need to comply?

Are they supposed to Sit back and let the whole PA WING idle while these few keep the rest of the Wing frozen? How long should they wait ? Two more weeks? A Month? Two Months?....No, this is the only viable solution. BRAVO Commander Lee....do what you have to. That is what a good leader does.

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 27, 2008, 07:29:18 AM
Wing deficiencies are Wing Command's problems. The fish stinks from the head down...or in this case from the orange ball cap down.

And it's Wings job to resolve them. By what ever means necessary.

From my Ranger rollled orange ball cap, to my chrome whistle, I support the Wing commanders decision to get us up to speed again ASAP.

Quote from: Alpha on April 27, 2008, 07:43:17 AM

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 27, 2008, 07:29:18 AM
Wing deficiencies are Wing Command's problems. The fish stinks from the head down...or in this case from the orange ball cap down.

And it's Wings job to resolve them. By what ever means necessary.

From my Ranger rollled orange ball cap, to my chrome whistle, I support the Wing commanders decision to get us up to speed again ASAP.

Folks out there Ranger Roll a BALLCAP?

Yep! Something they do at Hawk Mountain. Not every unit but some.

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 27, 2008, 07:45:46 AM

Quote from: Alpha on April 27, 2008, 07:43:17 AM

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 27, 2008, 07:29:18 AM
Wing deficiencies are Wing Command's problems. The fish stinks from the head down...or in this case from the orange ball cap down.

And it's Wings job to resolve them. By what ever means necessary.

From my Ranger rollled orange ball cap, to my chrome whistle, I support the Wing commanders decision to get us up to speed again ASAP.

Folks out there Ranger Roll a BALLCAP?

Shocking and horrific, isnt it?  ;)

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 27, 2008, 07:52:40 AM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 27, 2008, 07:45:46 AM

Quote from: Alpha on April 27, 2008, 07:43:17 AM

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 27, 2008, 07:29:18 AM
Wing deficiencies are Wing Command's problems. The fish stinks from the head down...or in this case from the orange ball cap down.

And it's Wings job to resolve them. By what ever means necessary.

From my Ranger rollled orange ball cap, to my chrome whistle, I support the Wing commanders decision to get us up to speed again ASAP.

Folks out there Ranger Roll a BALLCAP?

Shocking and horrific, isnt it?  ;)

Whatever floats your boat.  They are all teenagers, gives them something to do.

Quote from: RiverAux on April 27, 2008, 12:56:49 AM
Oh, I believe I surely can say that this punishment imposed by national and that Wing has threatened to disband squadrons over it is way out of proportion to the offense.

Now, I am just fine with stopping PA Wing activities over these offenses.  However, the proper way to get out of the mess is to fix the specific problems that were identified, not impose a new requirement for which there is no way on earth for the Wing to get compliant with in a reasonable period of time and not let them do something until they comply.

You aren't the inspection team there on the ground. You don't know the nature or depth of the offense. You don't know what else in addition to safety might have motivated this action. You don't know the attitude or competence of the people they dealt with & assessed on their ability to take corrective action w/ lesser motivation. You don't know the dynamic down chain from WgHQ. I don't know those things either.

What I do know is:
1) Neither one of none of us here have the power to overrule the shutdown or other tactics.

2) Whining about those tactics encourages people in that wing to feel they're being screwed over unjustly & therefor not to comply with the conditions to lift the shutdown.

3) The only way to lift that shutdown is to comply & force others to do so as fast as possible.

4) Anything that takes away from #3 is counter-productive, and contrary to good order & discipline.

5) They've been ordered to do this by competent authority. They have no further rights beyond compliance with that order. You are not in that chain of command. You are not in a chain of command that gives you oversight of the CAP-USAF inspection team or the resultant actions. Therefore, this is all securely out of your lane, and mine too.


Your role as a professional officer is to encourage rapid compliance within the system in order to restore operations as soon as possible. I may or may not agree with you on how this should have played out, if this was an overreaction, etc. Honestly, I don't have enough information to make a sound judgment & I've avoided doing so. I may have done things differently if I were making the call. There is very much room for that discussion & voice of dissent, however, that space exists AFTER this situation is passed. At that point we can discuss after action review in order to ensure better decisions are made in the future.

Quote from: Alpha on April 27, 2008, 07:43:17 AM
And it's Wings job to resolve them. By what ever means necessary.

From my Ranger rollled orange ball cap, to my chrome whistle, I support the Wing commanders decision to get us up to speed again ASAP.

hmmmmm...........

Dnall, nice sentiments, but that is not the nature of this discussion board.  You're not going to convince me that SM Joe Blow who joined 3 months ago has done something worthy of being punished for in this arena. 

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 27, 2008, 07:29:18 AM
Wing deficiencies are Wing Command's problems. The fish stinks from the head down...or in this case from the orange ball cap down.

btw, wing people wear blue hats.  It's like setting a good example or something?  Ok...I dunno.

Quote from: JC004 on April 27, 2008, 05:20:54 PM

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 27, 2008, 07:29:18 AM
Wing deficiencies are Wing Command's problems. The fish stinks from the head down...or in this case from the orange ball cap down.

btw, wing people wear blue hats.  It's like setting a good example or something?  OK...I dunno.

Thats because Wing staff don't want to look like clowns.  I mean, how can they say wear orange ballcaps, while they are wearing blue hats that have the Wing HQ shield on the front.  Double standard, and totally jacked up!  I hate PAWG leadership for reasons like this. 

Quote from: RiverAux on April 27, 2008, 12:50:19 PM
Dnall, nice sentiments, but that is not the nature of this discussion board.  You're not going to convince me that SM Joe Blow who joined 3 months ago has done something worthy of being punished for in this arena. 

One team one fight right. Snuffy over there screws up & we all push. You MP tanks the turn & you all spin in.

Obviously there are people here that didn't personally do anything wrong. Are you seriously telling me the wing should stay operational so those folks don't get screwed over & we should go down the line finding everyone that did do something wrong by whatever proportion & penalize them individually to that extent? Again, the hundred year witch hunt. Do you want to fix the institutionalized problem & deliver the Wg a wakeup call, or do you want to worry about punishing people. Cause nowhere in our disciplinary guidelines does it say anything about ORM classes or halting wing operations. This is about the problem, not who is or is not to blame. That is a matter to deal with AFTER the fact.

In the meantime, this is me, repeatedly now, appealing to you (and others) as a CAP officer to enthusiastically support polices necessary to get the wing back in operation, even if you disagree. The time for that discussion is AFTER, not during when it has the effect of impeding efforts to turn the switch back on. When they're back in operation I'll be more than happy to discuss with you what should have been done & why. You might even find I agree with some aspects of what you're saying, but not how or when.

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 27, 2008, 07:52:40 AM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 27, 2008, 07:45:46 AM

Quote from: Alpha on April 27, 2008, 07:43:17 AM

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 27, 2008, 07:29:18 AM
Wing deficiencies are Wing Command's problems. The fish stinks from the head down...or in this case from the orange ball cap down.

And it's Wings job to resolve them. By what ever means necessary.

From my Ranger rollled orange ball cap, to my chrome whistle, I support the Wing commanders decision to get us up to speed again ASAP.

Folks out there Ranger Roll a BALLCAP?

Shocking and horrific, isnt it?  ;)

I wouldn't say that. Wish we had a :gack smiley.

Quotewing people wear blue hats.

I do have to agree that one is a little hipocritacal though

back on track.....sure it is LT Snuffy the new guys fault/responsability.  IF the Wing won a wing wide commendation medal at the same time you bet he would put it on his uniform...so whay shouldnt he share in the down side of being a member too.

You know how many AF mandated suicide awareness briefings I have had to sit thru...no on in my unit has killed themselves in the 7 yers I have been in the Air Force...yet there I sit.  Why am I being punished for some other commanders lack of insight to his personnel's health and welfare.  Oh wait because the people in charge say its required...so I sit there an pay attention. 

mk

Spacing - MIKE

Quote from: sarmed1 on April 27, 2008, 10:15:54 PM

Quotewing people wear blue hats.

I do have to agree that one is a little hipocritacal though

back on track.....sure it is LT Snuffy the new guys fault/responsability.  IF the Wing won a wing wide commendation medal at the same time you bet he would put it on his uniform...so whay shouldnt he share in the down side of being a member too.

You know how many AF mandated suicide awareness briefings I have had to sit thru...no on in my unit has killed themselves in the 7 yers I have been in the Air Force...yet there I sit.  Why am I being punished for some other commanders lack of insight to his personnel's health and welfare.  Oh wait because the people in charge say its required...so I sit there an pay attention. 

mk

No, you sit through that briefing because eventually someone may present with signs of a possible suicide and you need to be aware of those signs.  I sit through the same briefings twice a year. 

I am betting you did not take a look at what PAWG members have to read for the ORM "briefing".  It has nothing to do with the reasons the wing was shut down.  Hell it has nothing to do with CAP, and surely has nothing to do with Cadets.  It is so far off base it is rather useless.  All it does is make the member prove he or she is active by using email.  I think there are ulterior motives behind it.  When I went to send my email stating I read the paper, I get a reply message (automated of course) requesting that I reply a second time to prove I was who I said I was.  Why the crap would I send the original email with my personal information proving I was who I was, if I have to prove it all over again a second time. 

The Wing Commander needs relieved for cause.  He had over 6 months to get the safety factors corrected after he took command.  It is no ones fault but his own.  He has an Executive Director paid for by the taxpays in PA that should have been on top of this crap.  That is why he is there.  I would also fire him.

You really think we need to clean house at PA WING?

Mikey! I'm shocked......but then .......

it does take two or three months to get a CAP drivers license........

and then only after re-sending the application 2 or 3 times....HMMmmmm! ???

Maybe I agree with you.

I personally believed they needed to clean house at PAWG back when I was a member there. I'm not in tune w/ EVERYTHING that's goin on there, but from what it sounds like, they need it more then ever now.

Quote from: Alpha on April 28, 2008, 12:07:48 AM
You really think we need to clean house at PA WING?

Mikey! I'm shocked......but then .......

it does take two or three months to get a CAP drivers license........

and then only after re-sending the application 2 or 3 times....HMMmmmm! ???

Maybe I agree with you.

It takes 3 hours here in INWG. My CD/C took his to the wing staff meeting and walked out with the form signed.

Quote from: Alpha on April 28, 2008, 12:07:48 AM
You really think we need to clean house at PA WING?

Mikey! I'm shocked......but then .......

it does take two or three months to get a CAP drivers license........

and then only after re-sending the application 2 or 3 times....HMMmmmm! ???

Maybe I agree with you.

2-3 months is downright speedy for CAP licenses in PAWG.

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 24, 2008, 05:43:24 PM
This was an email sent out today on the situation in PAWG.

Quote

Remedies!

We have until Midnight Sunday the 27th of April. or some or all of these remedies will be   
implemented. There is no other way!

1.  Contact every non-compliant member by phone and tell them how to accomplish the orm.
  (we have tried email for almost 2 weeks, it did get 35% response, but we need the other 65%.)

2.  Failing to complete by Sunday night, non compliant members can be transferred out of their   
     squadron or group into squadron 000.

3.  Non compliant squadrons can have their charter revoked.

4.  Some squadrons who lose enough members by their being sent to Sq.000, could fall below the
     15 member minimum and be reduced to a flight or closed.

Do these remedies seem drastic and harsh? Absolutely!

Is National giving PA Wing any choice but to comply? NO!

Almost time, what's the deal?

Quote from: CASH172 on April 28, 2008, 03:28:12 AM

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 24, 2008, 05:43:24 PM
This was an email sent out today on the situation in PAWG.

Quote

Remedies!

We have until Midnight Sunday the 27th of April. or some or all of these remedies will be   
implemented. There is no other way!

1.  Contact every non-compliant member by phone and tell them how to accomplish the orm.
  (we have tried email for almost 2 weeks, it did get 35% response, but we need the other 65%.)

2.  Failing to complete by Sunday night, non compliant members can be transferred out of their   
     squadron or group into squadron 000.

3.  Non compliant squadrons can have their charter revoked.

4.  Some squadrons who lose enough members by their being sent to Sq.000, could fall below the
     15 member minimum and be reduced to a flight or closed.

Do these remedies seem drastic and harsh? Absolutely!

Is National giving PA Wing any choice but to comply? NO!

Almost time, what's the deal?

Well the deal is. ...We'll know tomorrow sometime when all the weekends email and fax's are tallied up at Wing HQ.

We are expecting to be somewhere between 75 and 80% compliant by Monday.

It is the Wing command staff decision then to begin transferring members to the squadron 000 or have the squadron commanders 2-a them into "patron Member "status. One or the other until we are 100% compliant.

Hopefully this will lift the operational freeze by Tuesday or Wednesday.

We'll see.

Quote from: DNall on April 27, 2008, 07:35:30 PM

Quote from: RiverAux on April 27, 2008, 12:50:19 PM
Dnall, nice sentiments, but that is not the nature of this discussion board.  You're not going to convince me that SM Joe Blow who joined 3 months ago has done something worthy of being punished for in this arena. 

One team one fight right. Snuffy over there screws up & we all push. You MP tanks the turn & you all spin in.

Obviously there are people here that didn't personally do anything wrong. Are you seriously telling me the wing should stay operational so those folks don't get screwed over & we should go down the line finding everyone that did do something wrong by whatever proportion & penalize them individually to that extent? Again, the hundred year witch hunt. Do you want to fix the institutionalized problem & deliver the Wg a wakeup call, or do you want to worry about punishing people. Cause nowhere in our disciplinary guidelines does it say anything about ORM classes or halting wing operations. This is about the problem, not who is or is not to blame. That is a matter to deal with AFTER the fact.

In the meantime, this is me, repeatedly now, appealing to you (and others) as a CAP officer to enthusiastically support polices necessary to get the wing back in operation, even if you disagree. The time for that discussion is AFTER, not during when it has the effect of impeding efforts to turn the switch back on. When they're back in operation I'll be more than happy to discuss with you what should have been done & why. You might even find I agree with some aspects of what you're saying, but not how or when.

I don't see why discussing the matter on this board, in a give and take, and HOPEFULLY civilized manner, is seen as the antithesis of supporting the implementation of the policy.  I think the policy stinks to high heaven but that doesn't mean when I'm in contact with my squadron that I don't do everything in my power to get everyone to comply -- whether we like it or not. 

It's a frustrating situation and this board allows for some of that frustration to be vented here, where it should be safe to say one's opinions (within the guidelines of the board) rather than in a place where it's not good -- at the squadron.  I don't see any harm in saying here that I'm p.o.'d about the whole thing.  Just because I'm not happy about the situation, and I say so, doesn't automatically mean I'm not going to work to get the policy instituted as fast as $%^^$#@ possible. 

Just my humble opinion.

Quote from: tjaxe on April 28, 2008, 03:44:25 AM
I don't see why discussing the matter on this board, in a give and take, and HOPEFULLY civilized manner, is seen as the antithesis of supporting the implementation of the policy.  I think the policy stinks to high heaven but that doesn't mean when I'm in contact with my squadron that I don't do everything in my power to get everyone to comply -- whether we like it or not. 

It's a frustrating situation and this board allows for some of that frustration to be vented here, where it should be safe to say one's opinions (within the guidelines of the board) rather than in a place where it's not good -- at the squadron.  I don't see any harm in saying here that I'm p.o.'d about the whole thing.  Just because I'm not happy about the situation, and I say so, doesn't automatically mean I'm not going to work to get the policy instituted as fast as $%^^$#@ possible. 

Just my humble opinion.

That can be true, but posts on this board are very widely viewed & do to an extent influence behavior. I'm not saying people go off & do whatever people here tell them. That's preposterous. But, this place often influences people's attitudes or comes up with bright ideas that do see the light of day. It's a lot more public then you think.

If your here in my wing at my mtg talking about this, I got no problem with it. However, doing that in front of PAWG is not necessarily a good thing. They already don't feel good about this. If they see supportive members nationwide raising hell about injustices, that just encourages an attitude that doesn't help attain the compliance necessary to get out from under this situation.

Like I said, I'm all for having that dissenting conversation. I think it's important to learn from our actions & the actions of others, good or bad. However, that has to be done after the fact or out of the view of that wg. Otherwise you're interfering with that chain of command. As an officer you do have a responsibility to be professional and bite you tongue from time to time, even if just temporarily.

That's all I'm trying to say, and with all due respect to others, some of whom I know feel strongly about the issues.

QuoteI don't see why discussing the matter on this board, in a give and take, and HOPEFULLY civilized manner, is seen as the antithesis of supporting the implementation of the policy.  I think the policy stinks to high heaven but that doesn't mean when I'm in contact with my squadron that I don't do everything in my power to get everyone to comply -- whether we like it or not. 

It's a frustrating situation and this board allows for some of that frustration to be vented here, where it should be safe to say one's opinions (within the guidelines of the board) rather than in a place where it's not good -- at the squadron.  I don't see any harm in saying here that I'm p.o.'d about the whole thing.  Just because I'm not happy about the situation, and I say so, doesn't automatically mean I'm not going to work to get the policy instituted as fast as $%^^$#@ possible.

The problem is that posting here has a much broader reach than even discussing issues with your squadron.  Right or wrong, this board allows non members (Like Myself) a glimpse into the inner workings of current CAP issues. 

^^^^ My point exactly.

I dont want to derail this conversation, but.....

          I continue to get phone calls about the Iowa Wing from Emergency response coordinators in this state.  Many of them frequent this, and other sites.  How much do you think that the previous post helped in their attempt to rebuild their professional image. 

Back to the ass clown award......  or what ever

Interesting how threads get locked down for what the mods feel like is veering off topic but not for awarding the ass-clown award.

Mods, please don't shut down this topic... I think it's an important piece of discussion AND information. Thanks!!  Everyone else, please don't hijack this thread with this "award" stuff or off-topic items.

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 27, 2008, 11:29:37 PM

Quote from: sarmed1 on April 27, 2008, 10:15:54 PM

Quotewing people wear blue hats.

The Wing Commander needs relieved for cause.  He had over 6 months to get the safety factors corrected after he took command.  It is no ones fault but his own.  He has an Executive Director paid for by the taxpays in PA that should have been on top of this crap.  That is why he is there.  I would also fire him.

NCWG's commander was relieved in 2000 after only a few months in command.  He had a third a/c accident (I believe it was his second) and got the ax.  He had put the programs in place but there was a great deal that had been ignored in NCWG for prolly 10 years.  Things had started turning around, albeit slowly.  I thought it was a dumb thing to do - he was a retired O-6 and, while he wasn't particularly liked, he was doing the right things (it was strong medicine and not too many folks liked the taste of it).

The PAWG/CC should be on notice, though.  Any backsliding within his command that isn't taken care of swiftly should prolly be delt with fairly harshly.  His command is at the balancing point.

GC

The results are in:  1845, or so, members have responded.  That's  75% compliance.  I was told there were 225 members who are inactive and will be transfered to the "000" sq.   The rest will get ORM as soon as possible.  With these stats, PAWG should be running at full blast in a few days.

Good.  :clap:

Question;  FW - Do you think this may become an add-on to level one and the Curry for new members?

Does each individual member taking a quick ORM course change the entire, long-standing culture of an entire Wing?  Does it make them insta-safe?

Quote from: Pylon on April 28, 2008, 10:05:00 PM
Does each individual member taking a quick ORM course change the entire, long-standing culture of an entire Wing?  Does it make them insta-safe?

No, and neither does a wing commander who thinks that boxing ballcaps is the first thing that needs to be done after his wing is put on freeze.
Problems are supposed to be solved at the lowest level.  To that end, officers who don't have their priorities straight should not be able to make it above squadron commander.

Instituting ORM is a step in the right direction, but not a quick fix to an already desperate situation.   

Quote from: Pylon on April 28, 2008, 10:05:00 PM
Does each individual member taking a quick ORM course change the entire, long-standing culture of an entire Wing?  Does it make them insta-safe?

yup.   ;)

Quote from: Big_Ed on April 28, 2008, 09:40:36 PM
Good.  :clap:

Question;  FW - Do you think this may become an add-on to level one and the Curry for new members?

Quote from: JC004 on April 28, 2008, 11:06:43 PM

Quote from: Pylon on April 28, 2008, 10:05:00 PM
Does each individual member taking a quick ORM course change the entire, long-standing culture of an entire Wing?  Does it make them insta-safe?

yup.   ;)

I have no opinion on when ORM should be introduced to members.  However, IMHO, it should be something every member goes over and, reviewed from time to time.  After all, we're talking "10 second ORM".

And I agree 100% with Colgan.   ;D ;)

I don't even know who required this.  I get the impression it was imposed by the inspectors. 

I don't know what the story has been under the first few months of Col Lee, or generally under Col A, but I attended a few conferences, mostly under Col Weiss and I knew that PA was getting those safety awards (and CD awards too IIRC).  I sort of calmed down the conference attendance, especially national, under Col A, so I dunno what was going on there. 

Of all the stuff I dabble in with CAP, I try to avoid being in charge of safety, expensive assets, or money if I can.  I can say that I never knew any of the past three wing kings (that's as long as I've been in) to have the attitude of safety last, like I have seen among other folks.

The 10 second ORMis a toll (just like suicide awareness training)  that in my opinion should have been on someones front burner before hand, now it appears that its a knee jerk reaction to show "someone" that at a command level "we are aware of the problem and have a 'program' in place to train and educate the rank and file of this terrible problem. " A sort of "...if they (them lowly members) had known about this and been able to watch out for it (insert safety or suicide or GTC or a dozen other problems that commanders get in trouble for) they would have been able to bring it to the commands attention before it became critical..."

Like was mentioned before it feels to me like the command level is blaming the membership for something they should have been on top of, yes its not truly punishment, but it certainly feels like it..especially if you were (though apparently the minority) the poeple that actually did your vehivle inspections, or used an ORM tool for mission/activity planning etc etc .  Its kind of a kick in the face to be made to fix/do something that you know you didnt screw up on....

mk

Quote from: isuhawkeye on April 25, 2008, 04:05:00 PM

QuoteThis is an embarrassment,
the worse case scenario for CAP, and all the other CAP WINGS need to do some self reflection on just what the real facts are with each wing. CAWG has 2,000 seniors, if we have approx. 35% active that gives us maybe 700 who are doing the job. That may be a realistic number. Certainly for those of us who are active , 700 may be a high number. Nontheless, we are being dishonest to our Air Force and the American people by telling everyone we have 50,000, 60,000 or 40,000 members supporting 'Missions for America.

I believe in transparency in Government, by not doing so it creates a false sense of readiness, and when the Ball goes up we fall flat on our face. This does a disservice to the comunity and to our heritage. Maybe we need to trim the fat, be more open and honest.

When Iowa took a long hard look at truly operational numbers, and supported the concept of a leaner CAP the general membership of this forum revolted, and said that the wing was failing, and under poor leadership. 

It's all perspective

IAWG didn't fail, it simply forced CAP to see a cold hard fact they didn't want to see: The wanna-be's, Walter Mitty's and Hangar Commandoes do nothing for CAP but fill the rosters.

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 24, 2008, 05:43:24 PM
This was an email sent out today on the situation in PAWG.

QuoteFirst let me thank all those who have responded to the recent flurry of demands by National to bring Pennsylvania Wing into compliance.

We are under an operational shut down. What that means is if some disaster were to happen right now and FEMA or PEMA or a local ES organization contacted us for our help, we would have to say NO! 

I see emails every day about squadrons planning family days, color guard meets, fund raisers etc.
I must tell you all that MUST be put on hold until we work out this problem with our membership.

I was sent a list this morning of all those in the Group who are in compliance and who are not.
I was shocked to see the names on the non compliant list. There are Squadron commanders, former squadron commanders, Deputy commanders, members of my own Group 1 staff, former Group Commanders,  current and former Safety officers...the list goes on.

THE TOP PRIORITY, THE ONLY THING ON YOUR CAP AGENDA MUST BE...ORM COMPLIANCE OF EVERY MEMBER!

After a lengthy phone conference between the Wing Command staff last night and the Group Commanders the following facts and remedies are before us.

Facts!

1. PAWING IS UNDER AN OPERATIONAL SHUT DOWN! Going into it's third week soon!

2. OF the approximately 2,200 members of PAWING so far only approx. 870 have complied with
    the ORM requirement.

3. The Operational shut down will NOT be lifted until we are in 100% compliance.

4. PAWING Commanders have an obligation to bring the Wing into 100% compliance ASAP by what ever means necessary.

Remedies!

We have until Midnight Sunday the 27th of April. or some or all of these remedies will be   
implemented. There is no other way!

1.  Contact every non-compliant member by phone and tell them how to accomplish the orm.
  (we have tried email for almost 2 weeks, it did get 35% response, but we need the other 65%.)

2.  Failing to complete by Sunday night, non compliant members can be transferred out of their   
     squadron or group into squadron 000.

3.  Non compliant squadrons can have their charter revoked.

4.  Some squadrons who lose enough members by their being sent to Sq.000, could fall below the
     15 member minimum and be reduced to a flight or closed.

Do these remedies seem drastic and harsh? Absolutely!

Is National giving PA Wing any choice but to comply? NO!

Do the group commanders and Wing staff understand what this will do to the squadrons in the wing, to their membership, to the morale of the cadets and new members? ..Oh yes! we understand completely. But PA WING is in a box and there is only one way out.
COMPLIANCE! WE MUST ACHIEVE IT by any means necessary. There is no choice but to act, and act decisively.

We have been sending emails out for two weeks marked "URGENT!" and "PRIORITY!" and yes some have responded , that is why we have 870 compliant members. But we must concentrate on the remaining 1330.

The wing Staff has shifted blame for thier failure in safety to the wing membership.  Shame on them!

What does this really say?

About 1/3 of PAWG really gives a [darn], the rest we really have no clue why they're in the organization.

If they can't find an hour out of the past 3 weeks to get ORM and help get their Wing off the dime then they don't have the time for CAP. Unfortunately we're finding out this is a cancer throughout the entire organization.

Time to bust some folks to Patron status and maybe a few nonrenewals.

Quote from: FW on April 28, 2008, 09:37:15 PM
The results are in:  1845, or so, members have responded.  That's  75% compliance.  I was told there were 225 members who are inactive and will be transfered to the "000" sq.   The rest will get ORM as soon as possible.  With these stats, PAWG should be running at full blast in a few days.

Colonel, I don't know who gave you that number but it is slightly higher (by about 300)than what was reported officially at COB today.  (Mine comes from 2 individuals working at Wing HQ, bet you can't guess which two  ;D ). 

Heck the Email box at wing was full yesterday and I know of dozens of people who could not get their email through to Wing.  I also know of some shady CAP Officers in 3 groups that forged signatures on the form they submitted to Wing stating that "YES, I read the ORM sheet" for their SQD members"  Integrity violations are one of the reasons we are in this mess. 

"What does this really say?

About 1/3 of PAWG really gives a [darn], the rest we really have no clue why they're in the organization.

If they can't find an hour out of the past 3 weeks to get ORM and help get their Wing off the dime then they don't have the time for CAP. Unfortunately we're finding out this is a cancer throughout the entire organization.

Time to bust some folks to Patron status and maybe a few nonrenewals."

The figure of 1/3 is over a week old. Get with todays news or your comments are worthless.

The fact is PA is now close to 80% ORM compliant . In addition we are 100% air craft and van compliant. 100% Safety schedule compliant and better than 95% Safety Survey compliant.

This was accomplished in a little over 2 weeks in one of the largest Wings in the country.

All you arm chair quarterbacks especially those from outside of CAP, need to realize how big an accomplishment that is and give PA a standing ovation.

Unfortunately it has become fashionable to kick a man when he is down in this country. You can see it in the news, in politics, hell even in video games. There was a time in America when we all rooted for one another to win. Especially when we are all on the same team.  Come on everyone...lighten up on PA. Remember there are 50 more Wings to go....you could be next!

If you can set your bitterness on top of your anger for just a moment, you will see that not many of us were "rooting against" the Wing. In fact, most of us were pulling for the membership. Those of us rooting against anything, at least in my own situation, were rooting for a change in leadership.  If you put a fire team into a hot zone and they all get cut down, I imagine (never having been in the military) that the inquiry starts with the Head Honcho. And the fact remains, which you seem to miss, that the ORM compliance mandate was a result of the safety snafus in PAWG, not the cause of the grounding. If the Wing royalty was paying attention to the overall "safety health" of their Wing, this whole situation could have been avoided. Instead, they were more worried about the proper method of violating regulations by crushing orange "Ranger" caps.

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 29, 2008, 04:41:45 AM

Colonel, I don't know who gave you that number but it is slightly higher (by about 300)than what was reported officially at COB today.  (Mine comes from 2 individuals working at Wing HQ, bet you can't guess which two  ;D ). 

Heck the Email box at wing was full yesterday and I know of dozens of people who could not get their email through to Wing.  I also know of some shady CAP Officers in 3 groups that forged signatures on the form they submitted to Wing stating that "YES, I read the ORM sheet" for their SQD members"  Integrity violations are one of the reasons we are in this mess. 

Mikey, be very careful of what you post on this forum.  You have just made some very serious accusations which I can not ignore.  Please PM me with details.  I have no problem going to the IG with this.  Understand though, anonymous complaints are not treated quite the same way as documented ones.

BTW, check your numbers again.  They may be higher than what I first reported.

Quote from: Alpha on April 29, 2008, 05:21:26 AM
The fact is PA is now close to 80% ORM compliant . In addition we are 100% air craft and van compliant. 100% Safety schedule compliant and better than 95% Safety Survey compliant.

This was accomplished in a little over 2 weeks in one of the largest Wings in the country.

All you arm chair quarterbacks especially those from outside of CAP, need to realize how big an accomplishment that is and give PA a standing ovation.

This is like giving the SSA a standing ovation because they changed their policies to prevent people from taking SSNs home. This situation shouldn't have happened in the first place and is a direct result of poor leadership.

When you are on the brink of being fired at work or failing a college class because you aren't doing the work you are supposed to you don't get kudos for doing things after the fact.

The only people that deserve any thanks are the general members of that wing who had to inconvenience their lives because of the leadership failures of the PAWG staff.  The wing staff members may be volunteers to with lives and such, but you guys still signed on for the job and agreed to do what was required.  Which apparantly did not happen.

I usually don't applaud students when they are getting a D instead of an F.  The wing staff of PA wasn't in the position of coming into a new job and "fixing" what was left behind, it is a case of reaping what you sow.  You created the situation.

I will measure the success of these efforts on how well things go from here.

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 29, 2008, 11:56:34 AM
If you can set your bitterness on top of your anger for just a moment, you will see that not many of us were "rooting against" the Wing. In fact, most of us were pulling for the membership. Those of us rooting against anything, at least in my own situation, were rooting for a change in leadership.  If you put a fire team into a hot zone and they all get cut down, I imagine (never having been in the military) that the inquiry starts with the Head Honcho. And the fact remains, which you seem to miss, that the ORM compliance mandate was a result of the safety snafus in PAWG, not the cause of the grounding. If the Wing royalty was paying attention to the overall "safety health" of their Wing, this whole situation could have been avoided. Instead, they were more worried about the proper method of violating regulations by crushing orange "Ranger" caps.

Excuse me...my last post was anything but "bitter" in fact it was positive and in the spirit of cohesiveness and cooperation.

The only bitterness I see is on your part in regard to the orange hat issue...do I detect jealousy in your tone? "Rangers lead the way"

Quote from: Alpha on April 29, 2008, 02:19:43 PM
The only bitterness I see is on your part in regard to the orange hat issue...do I detect jealousy in your tone? "Rangers lead the way"

There it is. 

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 29, 2008, 03:02:50 PM

Quote from: Alpha on April 29, 2008, 02:19:43 PM
The only bitterness I see is on your part in regard to the orange hat issue...do I detect jealousy in your tone? "Rangers lead the way"

There it is. 

You guys stole the Army Ranger Motto, too???  You ought to be shut down.  You're nothing but a bunch of wannabees.  That's why PAWG is in such trouble - if you can't be one, then look and sound like one.  >:(

Graduates of the U.S. Army Ranger School lead the way.  PAWG "rangers" wear pretty orange hats.

GC
Not a Ranger School Graduate

Quote from: sarmed1 on April 29, 2008, 03:11:27 AM
The 10 second ORMis a toll (just like suicide awareness training)  that in my opinion should have been on someones front burner before hand, now it appears that its a knee jerk reaction to show "someone" that at a command level "we are aware of the problem and have a 'program' in place to train and educate the rank and file of this terrible problem. " A sort of "...if they (them lowly members) had known about this and been able to watch out for it (insert safety or suicide or GTC or a dozen other problems that commanders get in trouble for) they would have been able to bring it to the commands attention before it became critical..."

Like was mentioned before it feels to me like the command level is blaming the membership for something they should have been on top of, yes its not truly punishment, but it certainly feels like it..especially if you were (though apparently the minority) the poeple that actually did your vehivle inspections, or used an ORM tool for mission/activity planning etc etc .  Its kind of a kick in the face to be made to fix/do something that you know you didnt screw up on....

mk

sarmed-

it feels and looks like the incompetent Wing leadership was trying to use punitive action to get results from the membership because that is exactly what happened. They screwed up, but if they can make it look like it was a non-compliant membership who caused all the trouble, then they are absolved and can sleep at night.  And it wasnt just punishment...it was threats and punishment.

Quote from: Alpha on April 29, 2008, 02:19:43 PM

Quote from: SARMedTech on April 29, 2008, 11:56:34 AM
If you can set your bitterness on top of your anger for just a moment, you will see that not many of us were "rooting against" the Wing. In fact, most of us were pulling for the membership. Those of us rooting against anything, at least in my own situation, were rooting for a change in leadership.  If you put a fire team into a hot zone and they all get cut down, I imagine (never having been in the military) that the inquiry starts with the Head Honcho. And the fact remains, which you seem to miss, that the ORM compliance mandate was a result of the safety snafus in PAWG, not the cause of the grounding. If the Wing royalty was paying attention to the overall "safety health" of their Wing, this whole situation could have been avoided. Instead, they were more worried about the proper method of violating regulations by crushing orange "Ranger" caps.

Excuse me...my last post was anything but "bitter" in fact it was positive and in the spirit of cohesiveness and cooperation.

The only bitterness I see is on your part in regard to the orange hat issue...do I detect jealousy in your tone? "Rangers lead the way"

No.........they don't..........Don't assume that we wanna be like you guys.

Quote from: CCSE on April 28, 2008, 10:10:45 PM
To that end, officers who don't have their priorities straight should not be able to make it above squadron commander.

Instituting ORM is a step in the right direction, but not a quick fix to an already desperate situation.   

Ideally officers who don't have priorities straight should never become squadron commanders!

ORM as part of Level 1/Curry is a good way to initiate new members into CAP safety program.

Now that PA has accomplished it, don't be surprised if the rest of us get a mandate to take it, much like the OPSEC thing.

Certainly not a universal remedy for all that ails CAP safety-wise, but a reasonable first step.

Quote from: sarmed1 on April 29, 2008, 03:11:27 AM


Like was mentioned before it feels to me like the command level is blaming the membership for something they should have been on top of, yes its not truly punishment, but it certainly feels like it..especially if you were (though apparently the minority) the poeple that actually did your vehivle inspections, or used an ORM tool for mission/activity planning etc etc .  Its kind of a kick in the face to be made to fix/do something that you know you didnt screw up on....

mk

Hey Mark, is PA using the IMU? There is an automatic ORM tool in the briefing section. And there is a printable one if the computer turns into windoze.

The compliance figures are looking better and better....National should be lifting the shut down very soon.

Quote from: Alpha on April 29, 2008, 05:21:26 AM
"What does this really say?

About 1/3 of PAWG really gives a [darn], the rest we really have no clue why they're in the organization.

If they can't find an hour out of the past 3 weeks to get ORM and help get their Wing off the dime then they don't have the time for CAP. Unfortunately we're finding out this is a cancer throughout the entire organization.

Time to bust some folks to Patron status and maybe a few nonrenewals."

The figure of 1/3 is over a week old. Get with todays news or your comments are worthless.

I stand by what I said. PAWG at 3 weeks down had only 1/3 of their membership stand up and help get off the dime. That's not good.

QuoteThe fact is PA is now close to 80% ORM compliant . In addition we are 100% air craft and van compliant. 100% Safety schedule compliant and better than 95% Safety Survey compliant.

This was accomplished in a little over 2 weeks in one of the largest Wings in the country.

All you arm chair quarterbacks especially those from outside of CAP, need to realize how big an accomplishment that is and give PA a standing ovation.

So how many members got rolled to PA-000 to accomplish this?

It still means you've got 20 percent of the membership that doesn't care whether or not you guys ever do anything ever again, for Chrissakes!

A standing ovation for doing something every other Wing's been doing all along? Methinks your Ranger roll is a little too tight...

QuoteUnfortunately it has become fashionable to kick a man when he is down in this country. You can see it in the news, in politics, hell even in video games. There was a time in America when we all rooted for one another to win. Especially when we are all on the same team.  Come on everyone...lighten up on PA. Remember there are 50 more Wings to go....you could be next!

No one at NHQ woke up one morning and said, "Hey, lets' screw with PAWG today."  Had they been doing what all the other wings were doing, like taking the Safety program seriously, it would never have happened.

No one here is kicking PAWG while they're down. They beat themselves up and smacked the ground hard all by themselves.

Unfortunately, this whole episode has again exposed another example that we have too many members who are unwilling or unable to step up to the plate when needed. This ugly fact goes well beyond PAWG I'm afraid.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on April 29, 2008, 04:27:06 PM

Quote from: CCSE on April 28, 2008, 10:10:45 PM
To that end, officers who don't have their priorities straight should not be able to make it above squadron commander.

Instituting ORM is a step in the right direction, but not a quick fix to an already desperate situation.   

Ideally officers who don't have priorities straight should never become squadron commanders!

True, but we know how it works in CAP...

      1) Get promoted to Squadron Commander, screw up...

      2) Get promoted to Group Commander, screw up...

      3) Get promoted to Wing Commander, screw up...

      4) Get promoted to Region Commander, screw up...

      5) Get appointed to the National Board, screw up...

      6) Get promoted to National Commander.

What happened in PAWG happened because CAP allowed an incompetent officer to become Wing Commander and appoint other incompetent officers to serve in key positions within the wing.  This was a recipe for disaster, and was inevitable.

But that is what happens when a prized orange "ranger" hat becomes more important than the safety and welfare of the people in the wing.  Ditto with Hawk Mountain and the whole elitist "ranger" attitude in general.   

What it comes down to is a full-bird CAP colonel caring more about some pieces of fabric sewn together to form an article of clothing than the safety and well-being of living, breathing human beings.  The colonel deserves to be fired, plain and simple.   Otherwise, he might one day become National Commander.  :o 

Remember Teflon Tony?  That's all I have to say.         

I would sure like to see this email from the PA wing/cc on "rolling orange caps".
After all, we've seen every other email he's sent in the last couple of weeks concerning this thread.

And, CCSE, you're probably right.  In the last 25 years I've must have "screwed up" quite a bit.   However, I'll try not to "screw up" any more.  I don't want the CAP/CC job.  It just doesn't pay enough.
:-* >:D

I am looking forward to the publication of the PAWG inspection.  When it comes out, I'm sure someone will post it on this forum;  even though it is a confidential document.  But then, from what I've seen from some of the posts, that's not a problem for the vocal minority making their personal agendas.

BTW, the wing scored an overall grade of "Successful" (satisfactory) on the inspection.  Hmmmm...  such a disaster. :o

Quote from: FW on April 30, 2008, 03:08:19 AM
I would sure like to see this email from the PA wing/cc on "rolling orange caps".
After all, we've seen every other email he's sent in the last couple of weeks concerning this thread.

Send mikeylikey a PM, I believe he's the one who first brought it up.     

Quote from: FW on April 30, 2008, 03:08:19 AMAnd, CCSE, you're probably right.  In the last 25 years I've must have "screwed up" quite a bit.   However, I'll try not to "screw up" any more.  I don't want the CAP/CC job.  It just doesn't pay enough.
:-* >:D

Wait, I'm confused.  Are you admitting to being the PAWG/CC?  ???

Quote from: FW on April 30, 2008, 03:08:19 AMI am looking forward to the publication of the PAWG inspection.  When it comes out, I'm sure someone will post it on this forum;  even though it is a confidential document.  But then, from what I've seen from some of the posts, that's not a problem for the vocal minority making their personal agendas.

Playing the "agenda card" on this one is not advised... there's plenty of evidence of incompetence in CAP, and 9 times out of 10 it is because the system of checks and balances failed and people were promoted when they should not have.  I'm not just picking on PAWG by the way... the problem goes way beyond PAWG.   

Quote from: FW on April 30, 2008, 03:08:19 AMBTW, the wing scored an overall grade of "Successful" (satisfactory) on the inspection.  Hmmmm...  such a disaster. :o

If someone digs a 50 foot hole and manages to climb 32 feet up from the bottom, would you consider that a success?

In other words, the wing being put on freeze overshadows the "satisfactory" rating they received.  This is a black eye that will never go away.   

Quote from: Alpha on April 29, 2008, 02:19:43 PM

The only bitterness I see is on your part in regard to the orange hat issue...do I detect jealousy in your tone? "Rangers lead the way"

You are correct.....Rangers do Lead the way.

What HM produces are NOT rangers.  You want rangers, join the Army.

MODS - Merge with other PA wing info please.

Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on April 30, 2008, 04:05:44 AM
MODS - Merge with other PA wing info please.

Done.

Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on April 30, 2008, 04:02:02 AM

Quote from: Alpha on April 29, 2008, 02:19:43 PM

The only bitterness I see is on your part in regard to the orange hat issue...do I detect jealousy in your tone? "Rangers lead the way"

You are correct.....Rangers do Lead the way.

What HM produces are NOT rangers.  You want rangers, join the Army.

There are all types of "Rangers".

If you are foolish enough to think there is any comparison between the U.S. Army Rangers and the Hawk Mountain Search and Rescue Rangers then it is only in your mind.
Not in the training at Hawk Mountain.  I suggest you broaden your vocabulary.

There are Texas Rangers, Park Rangers, Mountain Rangers, ski patrol rangers, Forest Rangers, etc, etc.

Hawk Mountain never advertised they were producing combat troops.

The term "Ranger" simply means " one who covers a lot of ground, often moving long distances rapidly to accomplish their goals"
To that definition the "Rangers" who graduate from HMRS are rangers in every meaning of the word. 

Using your logic then CAP "Pilots" are not real pilots...they would have to be called Airplane drivers or something....

That thread has been so done... and locked.  Fair warning.

::sigh::

This one was due for lock a long time ago. There's a time & place & this went way past that quite a ways ago.

Quote from: DNall on April 30, 2008, 06:24:44 AM
This one was due for lock a long time ago. There's a time & place & this went way past that quite a ways ago.

What does "locked" mean?  It looks like we can still write here and it gets posted?

I only joined this site 2 days ago I don't understand what this means. 

It is amazinmg how this discussion digressed into a Rangers are the shiznit vs Rangers are the embodiement of all that is evil discussion...again.......

The basic fact is PA wing bombed the inspection as far as safety is concerned.  Somehow I doubt it has anything to do with colored hats or silly scarves or funny walks.  What it does have to do with is commanders at all levels all the way to the top (personally ultimately the top) not accepting the responsbility for allowing it to happen; ...bet we all know who would be standing up at the next Natioanl Boards accepting the national safety award if things were differant....

get off the Ranger hating (or loving depending on your opinion) that thread(s) died a painful death many times over....stick to the topic at hand, this has nothing to do with HMRS other than it happens to be in PA

mk

Quote from: Alpha on April 30, 2008, 06:36:47 AM

Quote from: DNall on April 30, 2008, 06:24:44 AM
This one was due for lock a long time ago. There's a time & place & this went way past that quite a ways ago.

What does "locked" mean?  It looks like we can still write here and it gets posted?

I only joined this site 2 days ago I don't understand what this means. 

Lock or locked means that the thread is dead.  No more posting, no more silly banting that HM produces quality rangers, no more silly notions about orange hats being ranger rolled. No more believing that there are more than 1/3 of your wing is active.

At least not here anyways.

Quote from: CCSE on April 30, 2008, 03:25:59 AM

Send mikeylikey a PM, I believe he's the one who first brought it up.     


Wait, I'm confused.  Are you admitting to being the PAWG/CC?  ???


Playing the "agenda card" on this one is not advised... there's plenty of evidence of incompetence in CAP, and 9 times out of 10 it is because the system of checks and balances failed and people were promoted when they should not have.  I'm not just picking on PAWG by the way... the problem goes way beyond PAWG.   

If someone digs a 50 foot hole and manages to climb 32 feet up from the bottom, would you consider that a success?

In other words, the wing being put on freeze overshadows the "satisfactory" rating they received.  This is a black eye that will never go away.   

Mikey knows how to PM me.   He knows who I am.    And, let's just say "I've been there and done that"  With a couple of trophies on my wall to remind me of the great time I had in PA.

As far as agendas go,  those that wish to knock a wing or its leadership for its compliance or performance; I have no problem with.   I do have a serious problem with those that take these problems and use them for their own twisted and seemingly perverted ideas.
Yes, closing down a wing is a black eye.  However, they have the chance to pull themselves out the remaining 18 feet and walk away from this mess better than ever.
Remember, CAP/HQ gave them the way out.  They took it and made it.  Now the mission is to change the culture.  

I've said it quite a few times now and, so have many others,  PAWG's culture, like the culture of so many other wings, needs to change.  We are volunteers BUT, we need to act as professionals at all times.  That means thinking things thru before we do them.  That means proper planing, proper execution and proper follow up.  Each individual member must be responsible for his actions.  

The PAWG/CC knows what he did wrong.  He learned from this experience and is correcting his attitude toward the mission he is charged with.  He now understands fully, his position.   Don't underestimate the talent of the wing's leadership.  They will surprise us all (and I mean that in a good way).  

If the PAWG Wing King knows what he did, and can see the damage it did to his Wing, then he should step down. Just because they may be "up and running" doesn't mean that there exists the trust in them to carry out life and death missions that previously existed.

Does anyone have any info about if/when the Wing is back up? Is this information accessible somewhere?  I can't find info on the site or the listserv.  Is there someplace else I can check?  Thanks!!

Quote from: tjaxe on April 30, 2008, 01:42:40 PM
Does anyone have any info about if/when the Wing is back up? Is this information accessible somewhere?  I can't find info on the site or the listserv.  Is there someplace else I can check?  Thanks!!

You'll know when it happens.

It will be announcd on the Wing Server as well as the Group servers. I give it about 30 seconds later and some one will post it here.

^ I guess what I meant to say is, can anyone say if PAWG will potentially be up this week, or more likely June, December, or 2011...
Just trying to get even a HINT of an idea of where we're at.
Thanks.

Quote from: FW on April 30, 2008, 03:08:19 AM
I would sure like to see this email from the PA wing/cc on "rolling orange caps".
After all, we've seen every other email he's sent in the last couple of weeks concerning this thread.

Go to PAWINGCAP.com

click on email lsitserves....then scroll through the various email lists from this past month (April) it is in one of them.  Direct from the Wing Vice Commander written by the Wing Commander at the executive meeting held the same weekend the Inspection took place. 
I would imagine YOU would be getting all the emails that PAWG Publishes SIR   :)

It took me a while to find the email in question.  But here it is. (Thanks Mikey)

FOR YOUR INFORMATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bret Stemrich < wrote:

FORPAWG Members,

Uniform correctness was brought up at the executive committee meeting on Saturday, Oct. 20th.  There seems to be some misinterpretation.

Authorized T-shirts (IAW NHQ): Brown, and Black (CAPM 39-1 table 2-3)
Additional Authorization (PAWG): Orange SAR T-shirt (IAW CAPM 39-1 Table 2-3)

There was no discussion on the headgear other than to "matter-of-factly" state that the orange hat is here to stay and aside from Wing HQ personnel it is currently the official hat of all units in the Wing.

"Crushing", or "peaking" is a feature that is addressed in CAPM 39-1 fig. 2-26 note 3.  It basically states that the Airforce BDU cap, or BDU baseball cap may not be "rolled", or "crushed".

However, note 4 in figure 2-26 doesn't make that requirement for the "CAP Baseball Cap".  By definition the CAP Baseball cap is the one we currently wear in the PAWG.

"Peaking", or "Crushing" is therefore neither specified, or unauthorized.  In my opinion it should be at the discretion of the unit commander to ensure that it's appearance, when worn, reflects a professional attitude.



This e-mail is authorized by the Wing Commander, Col Mark Lee.

Bret J. Stemrich, Maj, CAP
Vice Commander

_________________________

The email was sent out by the wing/cv.  It referenced a conversation 6 months ago at a wing meeting to clarify what members of PAWG could wear (in PA) with the BDU.  The last paragraph is the opinion of the vice commander.  After seeing this message, I don't know what the problem is.   I guess for those of the"half empty" attitude, it means something.  For those of the "half full"  attitude, it doesn't; at least not where there is any connection between the timing of this email and the wing inspection.  This email is exactly the type of message that should be sent to insure "uniformity" in wear standards. 

WIWAWCC, my UEI went from excellent to satisfactory because of a single senior member who wore an inappropriate uniform to a SLS, which was conducted at Wing HQ. concurrently with the inspection.  The inspector was correct in his assessment, I made the correction and this kind of thing never happened again during my tenure;  to my knowledge. 

Quote from: FW on May 01, 2008, 01:03:48 PM
It took me a while to find the email in question.  But here it is. (Thanks Mikey)

FOR YOUR INFORMATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bret Stemrich < wrote:

FORPAWG Members,

Uniform correctness was brought up at the executive committee meeting on Saturday, Oct. 20th.  There seems to be some misinterpretation.

Authorized T-shirts (IAW NHQ): Brown, and Black (CAPM 39-1 table 2-3)
Additional Authorization (PAWG): Orange SAR T-shirt (IAW CAPM 39-1 Table 2-3)

There was no discussion on the headgear other than to "matter-of-factly" state that the orange hat is here to stay and aside from Wing HQ personnel it is currently the official hat of all units in the Wing.

"Crushing", or "peaking" is a feature that is addressed in CAPM 39-1 fig. 2-26 note 3.  It basically states that the Airforce BDU cap, or BDU baseball cap may not be "rolled", or "crushed".

However, note 4 in figure 2-26 doesn't make that requirement for the "CAP Baseball Cap".  By definition the CAP Baseball cap is the one we currently wear in the PAWG.

"Peaking", or "Crushing" is therefore neither specified, or unauthorized.  In my opinion it should be at the discretion of the unit commander to ensure that it's appearance, when worn, reflects a professional attitude.



This e-mail is authorized by the Wing Commander, Col Mark Lee.

Bret J. Stemrich, Maj, CAP
Vice Commander

_________________________

According to your email that you posted they think the Orange shirt is IAW M39-1. The reference is below. Where in that paragraph does it allow odd colored shirts? The line about color is referring to the emblem not the shirt.

QuoteBrown or black. Either V-neck, U-neck, crew neck or athletic style
without pockets. Black or brown turtlenecks, dickeys, or thermal
undershirts without pockets may also be worn. EXCEPTION:
members may wear white thermal undershirts even if exposed at neck.
Unit commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and cloth or
silk screen emblem, to be worn on left side of chest not to exceed 5
inches in diameter.

David, it is not my email.
However, your interpretation is not correct.  
Wing Commanders are authorized to modify uniform wear in THEIR wing.  
PAWG, as many other wing do, have uniform combonations which are allowed only in their respective wings.  That some members violate the reg.  is another issue.
That this has nothing to do with this topic, maybe should be taken to the "Uniform" section.  

In any event, I got to catch a plane to Atlanta for a meeting ;)  

I'm sure the topic will be brought up.

Sorry didn't mean to insinuate that it was yours. I meant the email you posted. Yes I suppose I should take that over to uniforms.

And with that I'm calling this one and shutting down this thread.