CAP Talk

General Discussion => The Lobby => Topic started by: ♠SARKID♠ on February 29, 2008, 06:48:12 AM

Title: Incident w/Police
Post by: ♠SARKID♠ on February 29, 2008, 06:48:12 AM
I know we have a few police here, so let me pose this question.  Why is it that whenever I encounter a police officer, they refuse to communicate with me?  I ask this because of an incident at work today.  I'm a manager at a Piggly Wiggly.  About 15 minutes before closing, two squad cars park themselves right in front of our building, lights flashing.  As manager in charge, I walked outside to try and find out why they were there.  As far as I could tell we weren't being robbed, and if we were, the thieves were being dang subtle about it.

I stood outside the door, about 5 feet from the front squad, and stared at the officer inside.  After he noticed me, he just kept on doing what he was doing inside the car.  Now don't get me wrong, I completely understand that an officer has plenty of things to do on a stop that require his/her attention.  My step-mom is a retired officer and I've heard the ins and outs of what goes on.  But why can't the officer just crack the window, let me know why I have two squads parked in front of my store, and then go back to what he was doing?  I deduced later that it was a traffic stop, and the person pulled into our lot.

But I think that they owe me an explanation as to what was going on.  Did our security alarm go off?  Did a customer call 911 and I not know about it?
I would have been perfectly happy with "just a traffic stop, nothing to worry about."  "Okay, thanks officer."
Instead he was oblivious to me.  This isn't an isolated case either.  Any time that I've tried to get a sitrep that I deserve I get the same treatment.

Its no secret that a lot of people don't like the police (I do, its in the family, and I greatly appreciate what they do).  Perhaps some of that dislike comes from the attitudes that people receive from them.  I fully understand that professionalism and presence is key, but something like this is just rude.

What I'm getting at is, why do I consistently get treated this way?


I don't mean to make any offense by this either.  Like I said, I greatly appreciate what law enforcement does.  In fact, let me take this chance to thank our LE officers here on CAPTalk and everywhere for your dedication and service to your respective communities and the country as a whole.  My hats off to you all!
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: afgeo4 on February 29, 2008, 07:38:25 AM
Hey, I've had negative experiences too. Everyone has. Ego trips aren't reserved for random CAP officers. They happen everywhere. It's sad that our police officers often feel that they're above citizens and sometimes above the law, but it happens. Certainly doesn't happen all the time though.

However... I do tend to come to the conclusion that cops feel that they own the city. From their standpoint of patrol they probably do. Remember, cops carry their badges and weapons when off duty too and they tend not to be subject to vehicle rules/laws either. Cops don't ticket cops usually.

Here in NYC it's a huge problem. Cops have illegal tints, go through red lights, harrass store owners and teenagers, and generally don't behave too well. And that's just off duty! In fact, in my experience, the more identifiable they are (marked car, uniform) the more considerate they are.

It is what it is.  Certainly not all cops behave that way, but I would say most cops do. The attitude tends to make them better cops in bad situations and it comes with the job. However, I find that the most experienced officers in specialized units tend to be the most civil.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: PA Guy on February 29, 2008, 07:54:57 AM
So someone who is being pulled over by the police decides to pull into the parking lot of a store.  The store manager walks out and "stares" at the officer and somehow expects the officer to intuitively know that the manager would like an explanation of what is going on? Sounds like the manager  has a communication problem.  I'm thinking that if the incident had involved your store, alarm system or a 911 call from your store the officer would have been asking for the manager and asking questions.  Not responding to some guy standing in a parking lot staring at him is understandable.  If the manager had approached the officer and identified himself as the manager and asked if there was a problem he would stand a better chance of getting an answer.

How does the officer know you are the manager and not just some lookeloo or both?  Or if the officer knows you are the manager and you don't ask a question how is he/she supposed to know you have a question especially since the veh. stop didn't involve your store? 

I would be careful about throwing around words like "deserve".  What you think you "deserve" and what the police can tell you are often two very different things.

Sorry, I just don't see a problem with the police here.

Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: ♠SARKID♠ on February 29, 2008, 08:26:17 AM
Well, generally when somebody is staring at you its a good sign they want your attention.  I've never stared at someone just for the jollies of it.  Second, its a parking lot with cars in it.  How am I supposed to know that he's pulled someone over?  Its a stick in a bundle; I only learned because the car in question left with the squads.  Third, yes, I do deserve an explanation.  It scared a few customers, concerned the employees, and we're guaranteed to have a mass load of questions tomorrow morning about what happened (small town, word spreads quick about the dumbest things).  Not to mention they're making the stop on private property.  While that may not be anything wrong legally, I think it would be good practice to notify the owner/person in charge at the time as to why they were there.  I'm not going to go up to the car; I have no idea as to whether or not he's in "defense mode" and due to our lower crime rate the cops around here get overly excited and a tad overzealous in their actions, even in the smallest things.  How does he know I'm the manager?  Employee status is negligible, but the big PIGGLY WIGGLY SHOP THE PIG plastered on the front of my work uniform is a hint.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: PA Guy on February 29, 2008, 08:46:24 AM
Stop portraying yourself as some kind of victim.  Staring at an officer does not mean you want their attention in an officer's mind. They get stared at all the time. That close to closing time I bet there weren't that many cars in the lot either.   And as far as deserving an explanation, how was the officer supposed to know you wanted an explanation since you didn't ask but only stared.  They didn't make the stop on private property,  the person they were stopping pulled onto private property, happens all the time.  And since you said you were only 5 feet from the officer you could have asked to approach the unit.  And as far as your work uniform how does he know you aren't the box boy out taking a smoke or collecting carts just before closing.

No, you aren't a victim here.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Flying Pig on February 29, 2008, 08:51:18 AM
I think a reasonable explanation to your question is that just like any other profession, we in law enforcement hire from the human race.  And in that hiring process, we tend to find a few jackass's.  Given your explanation of the events, I think what you did was 100% appropriate.  An officer should know that if he and his partner are sitting in front of your store with their overheads (red and blues) chances are, people are waiting inside until its safe to leave.

If an employee walks out, your exactly right, "Traffic stop, no problem."  or "Murder suspect, keep everyone inside."  Even a simple thumbs up or "a-okay" sign. On your end, maybe a wave and a thumbs up from you might give him the hint.  I like to think that as an officer, I know the difference from a customer vs. the store manager.  Do you deserve an explanation?  Not really, would it be nice?  Sure.  Maybe the guy wasnt being rude.  He might have just been trying to get finished and get to Dennys for the Grand Slam breakfast, or may have just finished a nasty call minutes before making the stop.

If they don't help you out, call the PD public number and just tell them your the manager of a store and you want to know if everything is OK.

Now, why do YOU get treated this way?  I don't know.  Maybe they shop at your competition?
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: stillamarine on February 29, 2008, 08:52:52 AM
Quote from: PA Guy on February 29, 2008, 08:46:24 AM
Stop portraying yourself as some kind of victim.  Staring at an officer does not mean you want their attention in an officer's mind. They get stared at all the time. That close to closing time I bet there weren't that many cars in the lot either.   And as far as deserving an explanation, how was the officer supposed to know you wanted an explanation since you didn't ask but only stared.  They didn't make the stop on private property,  the person they were stopping pulled onto private property, happens all the time.  And since you said you were only 5 feet from the officer you could have asked to approach the unit.  And as far as your work uniform how does he know you aren't the box boy out taking a smoke or collecting carts just before closing.

No, you aren't a victim here.

Your a friendly guy huh?

Back to the topic, eh should of just come out and asked the guy. I've had employees of businesses come out and ask me what was going on, and if it wasn't anything life threatening and I had a moment I'd explain. If it was something a bit more pressing I'd ask them to step back inside and when I was finished I'd come speak to them.

Heck what if that officer was looking for a suspect and our friendly manager there happen to see him inside his store just minutes ago?
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: DNall on February 29, 2008, 09:34:31 AM
What happens when he has to answer your questions, takes his focus off the stop, and guy shoots both of you in the head. Even if he knew you had a question & even if he had an idea what it was, he needs to not talk to you. The only reason he might choose to talk to you is so you'll go away & get out of the potential kill zone, for which he'd be very annoyed. If it involves your store then you'll know about it when they're ready to tell you. In the meantime, it's none of your business. You can check with your people to make sure there's not a problem they know about, but otherwise you mind your business. Maybe if you keep your distance, and I mean really far away, then you'll be able to figure out what's happening & might be able to talk to the officer after it's over.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: JohnKachenmeister on February 29, 2008, 02:21:14 PM
I spent 25 years as a cop, the last 7 as a traffic cop, making dozens of traffic stops every day.  Let me give you another perspective.

1.  You stop a car, and the driver pulls into a private parking lot.  That is a huge RED FLAG.  That means that the driver knows that he is about to be arrested, and is trying to minimize his damage by placing the car in a position where it does not need to be towed.

2.  If a backup unit is available, I would then simply advise that he is "Pulling into the Piggly-Wiggly lot," and the other officers would know that this stop is no longer routine.  A second unit would show up, as I would if another officer initiated the stop.

3.  It is NOT unusual for people to stop and watch police activity.  That would explain the success of the TV show "Cops."  A Piggly-Wiggly employee taking a short break from work to watch someone get arrested would not be such an event that I would think it necessary to explain what was happening to him.  If he did not contact me and ask if there was an emergency, I would assume that he was merely curious, and seeking some reality entertainment.

4.  Lastly, a traffic stop is a busy thing, especially if the suspect's actions have triggered a higher level of suspicion.  The officer not only has to write out the citation, watch the suspect, watch for any confederates that approach the suspect, watch for the suspect to try to discard drugs or access a weapon, he must also call in on the radio and be prepared to write down important information that might come in from a background check.

If someone came to me and asked what was going on, I would explain.  But otherwise, I would assume that he was merely a curious bystander.

Since the crews did not approach the store tactically with weapons drawn, there wasn't much to worry about!
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: davidsinn on February 29, 2008, 03:17:51 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 29, 2008, 02:21:14 PM
I spent 25 years as a cop, the last 7 as a traffic cop, making dozens of traffic stops every day.  Let me give you another perspective.

1.  You stop a car, and the driver pulls into a private parking lot.  That is a huge RED FLAG.  That means that the driver knows that he is about to be arrested, and is trying to minimize his damage by placing the car in a position where it does not need to be towed.

Perhaps the person merely wanted to get off the road to minimize the danger to the officers from traffic? If I had the ability to do that I would. Here in Indiana we have on average one ISP Officer get killed a year by traffic on routine stops,
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: jeders on February 29, 2008, 03:22:30 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on February 29, 2008, 03:17:51 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 29, 2008, 02:21:14 PM
I spent 25 years as a cop, the last 7 as a traffic cop, making dozens of traffic stops every day.  Let me give you another perspective.

1.  You stop a car, and the driver pulls into a private parking lot.  That is a huge RED FLAG.  That means that the driver knows that he is about to be arrested, and is trying to minimize his damage by placing the car in a position where it does not need to be towed.

Perhaps the person merely wanted to get off the road to minimize the danger to the officers from traffic? If I had the ability to do that I would. Here in Indiana we have on average one ISP Officer get killed a year by traffic on routine stops,

Every time I've been pulled over I keep going until I find a safe place. Not because I want to run or I expect to be arrested, but because I'm trying to make the stop safe for me and the officer pulling me over.

But I imagine, for every one of us that try to be considerate and make the stop safer/easier for the officer, there's probably someone who pulls off to make things harder on the officer, or easier on himself.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: jimmydeanno on February 29, 2008, 04:17:40 PM
Whew...when I read the title of this thread I thought you were having altercations with Sting - I thought maybe he was putting on the red light!

BTW, what's a piggly wiggly?
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: mynetdude on February 29, 2008, 05:07:42 PM
Yeah when I saw the topic, I thought there was some kind of argument or something ;)

Quote.  You stop a car, and the driver pulls into a private parking lot.  That is a huge RED FLAG.  That means that the driver knows that he is about to be arrested, and is trying to minimize his damage by placing the car in a position where it does not need to be towed.

I'm not a cop, but like several said its more of a safety thing... I have NEVER heard of a cop tell me or tell anyone else that it is not a good idea to go to a safe location (parking lot).  I think cops actually appreciate it IF you do get to a safe area where they can talk to you and so forth, for me I would rather park off the road as I am hard of hearing and cars whizzing by make it difficult to communicate with the officer in question.

Just a few weeks ago OSP pulled someone over, they were parked on the side of my house in front of a business building (I live next door to a business office), by the time I noticed there was a cop outside the car had gone but he still had his lights on and that being OSP I knew he was there because of a trffic stop he had finished up.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the job the LE do but I'm not exactly thrilled with them either with their behavior and their actions sometimes along with ignorance IMHO I guess you can say I don't like them very much (does that mean I have an all out hate for them everytime I see them? No).

The first time I get pulled over and arrested because I pulled into a parking lot as a RED flag... is the last time they will see their job that is how much dislike I have for them.

And btw... I know that every state law is different, however just because you get pulled over/arrested on private property does not mean your vehicle will not get towed because they WILL tow it (what do you think, are they stupid not to tow it? They MAKE money on impounds! At least a certain percentage).

BTW I didn't go outside and ask the cop if there was a problem, at first I was going to because I couldn't figure out why/what and I couldn't tell which he was, OSP or county until I had a better look and he wasn't anywhere to be seen as I could not tell if he was in the car (most likely in the car).  Had there been officers walking around and such I probably would have asked but I didn't feel the need to so I went on with my life.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Brad on February 29, 2008, 05:13:40 PM
I'm a dispatcher with my campus police department, and so I hear a bit of the "inside perspective" as well. It's different when you're a cop, you have to know how to read people and treat everyone as suspect until you can resolve a situation because you DON'T know what Billy there might do next. Almost every officer I've known says that when two squad cars are facing opposite directions and chatting right next to each other, DO NOT walk up to them. They are discussing a situation more than likely, and they position themselves like that not only for ease of conversation, but also to watch a combined 360 degree area around the car.

If you're unsure of what's going on still, like another poster said, call the dispatch office. I may not be able to give specifics, but if you give me some sort of credentials, I'll probably say that it's not a threat, it is a threat and the officers are advising you need to stay put/back/whatever, stuff like that.

We're not your enemies, it's just that communication is a two-way street, and many times the other person is the one who needs to make that first turn.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Smokey on February 29, 2008, 05:15:45 PM
Like Kack....I've been at this job a long time....36 years this month.

I also teach officer survival tactics around the  country, co authored a book on it, etc.

On a vehicle stop my focus needs to be on the stopped veh. I may have stopped him for a traffic violation or because he was acting suspiciously.  During the stop is not the time for me to be distracted with folks who want to know what is going on, want directions to Disneyland, or want to discuss how their neighbors dog poops on his lawn.

What may seem to the citizenry as something simple may actually be very serious. Too many of my brother & sister officers have their names on a memorial wall in D.C. on an incident that started as a vehicle stop.  I teach officers to focus on the stop---yes we are also scanning the area for other hazards or suspects, but distractions can give a suspect the opportunity to attack.

If you were concerned for your employees and customers , when the officer looked at you you could have politely pointed to him and given the "OK" sign with a questioned look.  Saying as if "Is everything OK"   He will appreciate your concern for him and if the situation needs to involve you, he will let you know.

Please understand if we don't deal with you at the moment...we are not being rude but are practicing officer safety & survival. Plus like Kack said, often people like to watch. What we do is usually more interesting that what they do in their everyday lives.

BTW.....Please don't choose a safe spot to pull over if being stopped by the police.  We are trained to know how to make a safe stop. We need to choose the location. If you fail to stop when we signal, we get real suspicious as if you are trying to hide something, are wanted for something, or are leading us into a trap.  By failing to stop when we signal, you may well be greeted in a more forceful manner---possibly at gunpoint. Plus the law says you must pull over when signalled. Not at your leisure.

Anyone who wants to know more---please feel free to ask here or PM.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: mynetdude on February 29, 2008, 05:56:27 PM
QuoteBTW.....Please don't choose a safe spot to pull over if being stopped by the police.  We are trained to know how to make a safe stop. We need to choose the location. If you fail to stop when we signal, we get real suspicious as if you are trying to hide something, are wanted for something, or are leading us into a trap.  By failing to stop when we signal, you may well be greeted in a more forceful manner---possibly at gunpoint. Plus the law says you must pull over when signalled. Not at your leisure

This is a very valid point, yeah don't lead the officer for 5 miles... by then you'll have plenty of them behind you.  But the point is, when you are signaled you do need to find a reasonable place to stop and if that place isn't safe that doesn't matter it just needs to be reasonable (like don't double park, or block someone's driveway, etc)  The officers have flashing lights, that should be ENOUGH to alert other drivers to be careful when passing by.

I have seen trafifc stops where they are partially blocking a traffic lane, no it may not be safe but it is in a reasonable location.   I got pulled over 6 months ago, I was at a red light, my intended direction was to go straight and because I was still at a red light I had time to assess where to go my choice were:

A) go straight, find a parking space (there were lots of cars parked and I didn't see anywhere where a cop could also park)

B) there was a nice tiny parking lot just off to my left turn, I chose the parking lot as it was the SHORTEST distance from where I was flagged at and it was SAFE and it was reasonable... otherwise I'd be going several blocks down the street looking for parking I don't think that makes much sense.

Sure the officer could have done the stop right there at the red light if he really wanted/needed to I suppose, then forcing traffic to go around him; but he didn't... he waited for me to proceed through a green light and park somewhere.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: flyerthom on February 29, 2008, 06:28:34 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 29, 2008, 02:21:14 PM
I spent 25 years as a cop, the last 7 as a traffic cop, making dozens of traffic stops every day.  Let me give you another perspective.

1.  You stop a car, and the driver pulls into a private parking lot.  That is a huge RED FLAG.  That means that the driver knows that he is about to be arrested, and is trying to minimize his damage by placing the car in a position where it does not need to be towed.

2.  If a backup unit is available, I would then simply advise that he is "Pulling into the Piggly-Wiggly lot," and the other officers would know that this stop is no longer routine.  A second unit would show up, as I would if another officer initiated the stop.

3.  It is NOT unusual for people to stop and watch police activity.  That would explain the success of the TV show "Cops."  A Piggly-Wiggly employee taking a short break from work to watch someone get arrested would not be such an event that I would think it necessary to explain what was happening to him.  If he did not contact me and ask if there was an emergency, I would assume that he was merely curious, and seeking some reality entertainment.

4.  Lastly, a traffic stop is a busy thing, especially if the suspect's actions have triggered a higher level of suspicion.  The officer not only has to write out the citation, watch the suspect, watch for any confederates that approach the suspect, watch for the suspect to try to discard drugs or access a weapon, he must also call in on the radio and be prepared to write down important information that might come in from a background check.

If someone came to me and asked what was going on, I would explain.  But otherwise, I would assume that he was merely a curious bystander.

Since the crews did not approach the store tactically with weapons drawn, there wasn't much to worry about!

John,

Out here in Vegas, Metro PD has begun to advise people to pull in to parking lots that are well lit because they've had a rash of fake police jacking people up. I'm not sure but rumor has it Metro will only do a traffic stop now with a marked vehicle so if an unmarked vehicle is attempting a stop metro is recommending driving to a 7-11 and pulling in there. There is an advantage of lights and store cameras.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: jeders on February 29, 2008, 07:12:51 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on February 29, 2008, 05:56:27 PM
The officers have flashing lights, that should be ENOUGH to alert other drivers to be careful when passing by.


It's also enough to turn a 1 car wreck into an 8 car pile-up. I'm just sayin.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: JohnKachenmeister on February 29, 2008, 09:21:47 PM
Well, everyone's experience is different.

If a car is parked legally, and there is no legal reason to impound it, then we were not supposed to tow the car.  Criminals know this.  Criminals also know before I do that they have a warrant out for them, and they are usually the first to realize that they do not have a driver's license.

If you stop, and the officer wants you to pull over somewhere safer, he will tell you to move your car.

Also, you don't get arrested because the officer has heightened suspicion.  Don't be stupid.  You get arrested for breaking the law.  But if I have heightened suspicion, I am going to concentrate more on the suspect vehicle to the excusion of the curious Piggly-Wiggly manager.

That is how one survives to be like me... Retired in Florida with time to fart around on the internet.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: brasda91 on February 29, 2008, 09:35:16 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on February 29, 2008, 04:17:40 PM
BTW, what's a piggly wiggly?

Your local hometown grocery store.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Flying Pig on February 29, 2008, 09:41:32 PM
As far as deciding where to pull over.  If I wanted to wait, I would have.  Before I make the stop, I have already decided that "this" is the place I want to do it.  Your best to stop as soon as you can.  As a cop, when you don't stop, to me your hiding your dope and sticking your gun in your girlfriends shirt.  Wait, no, the dope goes in the shirt.

I've been in 2 shootings that took place during vehicle stops.  One involved a guy wearing body armor and carrying a suppressed Uzi.  Im working on retiring to Florida like Kach.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: SDF_Specialist on February 29, 2008, 11:21:04 PM
I'm a Criminal Justice major in school right now. I just finished a class that discussed things like this. Turkal, you say you live in a small town, and the police tend to get excited about small things. Understandable. When you don't have a lot to do, you tend to have as much fun as you can within the limits of the law. That is, if you are an officer who doesn't believe he/she is above the law. I agree with you to a point. Yes, as the manager, you did deserve an explaination as to why there were local police units in front of your store with their lights at full bar. But on the other hand, I sadly have to agree with PA Guy. If you don't approach the cruiser, how are the officers supposed to know that you would like an explaination as to why they are on store property conducting business that is not related to the store directly? My suggestion if this ever happens again is to approach the cruiser with your hands visable, identify yourself, and as if the problem is related to the store. If they officer doesn't give you a response, then you are 100% in the right to feel the way you did. Cops can't ignore you. That's not part of their job description. If they do, well then they are not real cops. The badge means nothing at that point except that your city has bad taste in the people they choose to protect the citizens of your community.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: ♠SARKID♠ on February 29, 2008, 11:40:37 PM
Alright, after reading the responses here, I'm going to chalk this up to a combination of both my and the officers fault.  I'm keeping this response short because I hate admitting I'm wrong and the more I type the more it bugs the heck out of me.  I'm going to back out, admit I was wrong in the most part, and leave the thread open for expansion and hijack.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Flying Pig on February 29, 2008, 11:51:25 PM
Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on February 29, 2008, 11:21:04 PM
I'm a Criminal Justice major in school right now. I just finished a class that discussed things like this. Turkal, you say you live in a small town, and the police tend to get excited about small things. Understandable. When you don't have a lot to do, you tend to have as much fun as you can within the limits of the law. That is, if you are an officer who doesn't believe he/she is above the law. I agree with you to a point. Yes, as the manager, you did deserve an explaination as to why there were local police units in front of your store with their lights at full bar. But on the other hand, I sadly have to agree with PA Guy. If you don't approach the cruiser, how are the officers supposed to know that you would like an explaination as to why they are on store property conducting business that is not related to the store directly? My suggestion if this ever happens again is to approach the cruiser with your hands visable, identify yourself, and as if the problem is related to the store. If they officer doesn't give you a response, then you are 100% in the right to feel the way you did. Cops can't ignore you. That's not part of their job description. If they do, well then they are not real cops. The badge means nothing at that point except that your city has bad taste in the people they choose to protect the citizens of your community.

In the world of law enforcement, NEVER start off a conversation where police officers are involved with the line, "Im a criminal justice major, and I just finished a class"  ;D   As far as ignoring people, although I think SARKID could have received an explanation of sorts, if I took the time to talk to everyone who wanted to know what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.  There is nothing in my "job description" that says I have to provide any explanation to anyone except the guy going to jail.
The police in small towns don't get "excited" about small things.  The difference is that they have the time to deal with them.  Often times I wish I had the time to deal with a suspended license or an unregistered vehicle.  However the sad reality is that we are so busy we have to let them go in the interests of time to go onto other things.  So misdemeanor crimes and quality of life things are left to boil over until they become bigger crimes.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: JohnKachenmeister on March 01, 2008, 02:45:10 AM
SARKID:

You're not "Wrong."  You didn't know.

no cop is going to get upset with a question from the manager of the store where a stop is being made... "Is my alarm going off?"  "Did you get a call here?"  The few seconds it takes to say, "No, sir, its a traffic stop on this car over here" is not going to cause the collapse of the American Criminal Justice System.

But to just stand there... I'm sure the policemen thought you were just watching the action.  Everybody likes to watch the social train wrecks.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: DrJbdm on March 01, 2008, 03:34:08 AM
If you guys who are not cops really believe Dan here DERSERVED an explanation then you are really wrong. The honest truth is I as a cop do not have to give you ANY explanation as to why I am there with my lights on.  Now if you come up and ask me, I'll give you a VERY short, not very friendly explanation because I do not have time to deal with you. You are getting in my way at the moment.

  When the stop is done, I'm going on my merry way, I will not sit around and answer every ones questions about the stop...first of all it is not any of their business, second, I don't have to explain what I do to everyone who wants to know.

  I know this is harsh but it's the realities of the job.  Dan, you're a good guy, but as a cop I am not a mind reader. Further, if it was in regard to your store then I promise you, you would know because I would come and talk to you about it.  Other wise it is a safe bet it has nothing to do with your store.  I'll say it again, you did not deserve an explanation nor was this bad experience of yours any fault of the officers.  I'm being blunt but honest.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: JCW0312 on March 01, 2008, 10:33:11 PM
Quote from: flyerthom on February 29, 2008, 06:28:34 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 29, 2008, 02:21:14 PM
I spent 25 years as a cop, the last 7 as a traffic cop, making dozens of traffic stops every day.  Let me give you another perspective.

1.  You stop a car, and the driver pulls into a private parking lot.  That is a huge RED FLAG.  That means that the driver knows that he is about to be arrested, and is trying to minimize his damage by placing the car in a position where it does not need to be towed.

2.  If a backup unit is available, I would then simply advise that he is "Pulling into the Piggly-Wiggly lot," and the other officers would know that this stop is no longer routine.  A second unit would show up, as I would if another officer initiated the stop.

3.  It is NOT unusual for people to stop and watch police activity.  That would explain the success of the TV show "Cops."  A Piggly-Wiggly employee taking a short break from work to watch someone get arrested would not be such an event that I would think it necessary to explain what was happening to him.  If he did not contact me and ask if there was an emergency, I would assume that he was merely curious, and seeking some reality entertainment.

4.  Lastly, a traffic stop is a busy thing, especially if the suspect's actions have triggered a higher level of suspicion.  The officer not only has to write out the citation, watch the suspect, watch for any confederates that approach the suspect, watch for the suspect to try to discard drugs or access a weapon, he must also call in on the radio and be prepared to write down important information that might come in from a background check.

If someone came to me and asked what was going on, I would explain.  But otherwise, I would assume that he was merely a curious bystander.

Since the crews did not approach the store tactically with weapons drawn, there wasn't much to worry about!

John,

Out here in Vegas, Metro PD has begun to advise people to pull in to parking lots that are well lit because they've had a rash of fake police jacking people up. I'm not sure but rumor has it Metro will only do a traffic stop now with a marked vehicle so if an unmarked vehicle is attempting a stop metro is recommending driving to a 7-11 and pulling in there. There is an advantage of lights and store cameras.

I'd have to say that on about 1 in 3 traffic stops I make, the driver pulls onto a lot out of the roadway - and it's something I appreciate. Especially when stopping someone for a violation on a busy road.  If you pull over into the center turn lane of the hometown autobahn and make me have to tell you where to move - you probably just lost your chances of sneaking away with a warning. Probably more than half of the folks I have arrested on traffic stops did not pull onto a parking lot. There's many things that throw up the huge red flags to me, but pulling over onto private property isn't necessarily one of them. There's no such thing as a "routine" traffic stop. If you've seen half of the videos of officers being shot on "routine" stops, you know how true it is.

Going back to the original post, as it's been said here - it's not uncommon for folks to start watching "the action". Even if it's a just a ticket. Many times people see the stop initiated and/or see you speaking with the violator, and know what's going on. If I looked towards ever onlooker and said "It's just a traffic stop, everything is ok", then someone would be on a message board somewhere complaining that a cop was rude and wanted them to move along and was trying  to deny their right to freely stand and watch. You can't figure out which 1 in 8 onlookers isn't aware of the circumstances. As officers, we've gotten pretty used to somebody getting their feelings hurt no matter what we do. If every member of the general public saw what we have to deal with all the time, then they would stop complaining so much. Personally, I don't mind onlookers. They make great witnesses should the violator decide to make a bad decision. But don't expect us to be mind readers. Like I told the fireman the other day who told me he was a fireman AFTER I wrote the ticket - My ESP is broke right now.

I'll agree that there are problems with many officers both on-duty and off-duty. But like someone already said - we hire from the human race as it seems to provide the best pool of candidates. Many problems with officers' behavior can be resolved by a good police administration. Especially in big cities you'll find officers that should have been fired long before they got caught doing the "big" thing. How many times have you seen a former officer on the news that has been indicted for robbing drug dealers or running dope? Many times, they have been charged for "truthfulness" within their department for lying about stuff. A good police administration will nip these problems in the bud. In my department, your career can survive a lot of bad choices, but lying about anything is an easy route out the door. And for that I salute my administration.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: John Bryan on March 02, 2008, 12:39:53 AM
Quote from: Smokey on February 29, 2008, 05:15:45 PM
BTW.....Please don't choose a safe spot to pull over if being stopped by the police.  We are trained to know how to make a safe stop. We need to choose the location. If you fail to stop when we signal, we get real suspicious as if you are trying to hide something, are wanted for something, or are leading us into a trap.  By failing to stop when we signal, you may well be greeted in a more forceful manner---possibly at gunpoint. Plus the law says you must pull over when signalled. Not at your leisure.

Anyone who wants to know more---please feel free to ask here or PM.

First to all the law enforcement officers and public safety folks thanks for your service.

Now as for the comment about officers pick a safe place to make a stop.....I respectfully disagree. I know in the last 20 or so years more Indiana Troopers have been killed on traffic stops when they were hit by vehicles....then have been shot or anything else. We have actually changed the law to make sure traffic moves or slows down. I the always picked a safe place to make a stop this would not be the case.

Also you might pull in a lot where you as the person being pulled over can be seen or even recorded by security cameras....there have been cases of fake cops pulling people over and hurting them or sadly real police being abusive. Again I would not drive 10 miles to find a store lot.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Flying Pig on March 02, 2008, 02:19:06 AM
OK, I guess I don't then. I dont know what you are doing in Indiana, but when I make stops, even on the freeway, I am selecting my area as best as I can given the conditions.  And unfortunatly an occasional drunk comes along.  And in many of the cases, the officers are killed while working traffic accidents.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: stillamarine on March 02, 2008, 02:54:14 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 02, 2008, 02:19:06 AM
OK, I guess I don't then. I dont know what you are doing in Indiana, but when I make stops, even on the freeway, I am selecting my area as best as I can given the conditions.  And unfortunatly an occasional drunk comes along.  And in many of the cases, the officers are killed while working traffic accidents.

You may, but not all LEOs do, and it's sad. I've personally seen FHP and the SO here signal for the stop while on bridges. That's just plain silly.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: mynetdude on March 04, 2008, 01:19:37 AM
Quote from: stillamarine on March 02, 2008, 02:54:14 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 02, 2008, 02:19:06 AM
OK, I guess I don't then. I dont know what you are doing in Indiana, but when I make stops, even on the freeway, I am selecting my area as best as I can given the conditions.  And unfortunatly an occasional drunk comes along.  And in many of the cases, the officers are killed while working traffic accidents.

You may, but not all LEOs do, and it's sad. I've personally seen FHP and the SO here signal for the stop while on bridges. That's just plain silly.

I agree that while it may be silly...  I don't know if this is true, I have been told in some states a squad car following you for X miles then signaling you can be construed as harassment so signaling for a stop on a bridge before the LEO reaches X miles as prescribed by law is probably the only way to do it but the question becomes this: If you are an LEO signalling for a stop while on the bridge I would assume that the LEO has two choices: A) decide that stopping the motorist is really not that important if its an expired tag or they are going 5-10mph over the limit etc B) the LEO can convince the driver to stop either with the loud speaker or by having multiple squad cars (and I probably would elect to use B if the motorist was being unsafe (going 50mph over the limit or weaving through traffic or unable to maintain stable control of the vehicle).

I used to live in the bay area, and one smart thing they have done on the bridges down there is they have made "extended" shoulders so if you break down or need to pull over you've got a safety area and these can also be used for traffic stops.  I have never seen LE or 1st responder vehicles on the bay/golden gate bridges unless there was a collision, a stalled vehicle or some other form of medical emergency otherwise you almost never see them on the bridge.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Flying Pig on March 04, 2008, 01:53:09 AM
Quote from: mynetdude on March 04, 2008, 01:19:37 AM
Quote from: stillamarine on March 02, 2008, 02:54:14 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 02, 2008, 02:19:06 AM
OK, I guess I don't then. I dont know what you are doing in Indiana, but when I make stops, even on the freeway, I am selecting my area as best as I can given the conditions.  And unfortunatly an occasional drunk comes along.  And in many of the cases, the officers are killed while working traffic accidents.

You may, but not all LEOs do, and it's sad. I've personally seen FHP and the SO here signal for the stop while on bridges. That's just plain silly.

I agree that while it may be silly...  I don't know if this is true, I have been told in some states a squad car following you for X miles then signaling you can be construed as harassment so signaling for a stop on a bridge before the LEO reaches X miles as prescribed by law is probably the only way to do it but the question becomes this: If you are an LEO signalling for a stop while on the bridge I would assume that the LEO has two choices: A) decide that stopping the motorist is really not that important if its an expired tag or they are going 5-10mph over the limit etc B) the LEO can convince the driver to stop either with the loud speaker or by having multiple squad cars (and I probably would elect to use B if the motorist was being unsafe (going 50mph over the limit or weaving through traffic or unable to maintain stable control of the vehicle).

I used to live in the bay area, and one smart thing they have done on the bridges down there is they have made "extended" shoulders so if you break down or need to pull over you've got a safety area and these can also be used for traffic stops.  I have never seen LE or 1st responder vehicles on the bay/golden gate bridges unless there was a collision, a stalled vehicle or some other form of medical emergency otherwise you almost never see them on the bridge.

Nope not true.  Urban legend. 
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Stonewall on March 04, 2008, 03:33:03 AM
I've been a cop for 19 months now and my whole perspective of people has changed dramatically.

First, I work only at night, 2100 to 0700.  I prefer that shift and it isn't bad with a 5 on 4 off schedule.  While stuff happens during the day, most of your average 40 hour a week workers are at home watching TV by the time I start my shift.  Except for the late shift worker, the hungry guy going to Taco Bell for "fourth meal", generally most people I come in contact with are up to no good.  From your basic traffic stop for speeding, tag light out or expired tags, to a "suspicious person" that someone called in.

Unless the person I'm encountering gives me a reason to act aggressively, I initiate my contact the same way with everyone.  Usually I start out with a pleasent "good evening".  But somehow 80% of contacts I make end up with me using my handcuffs, drawing my weapon, wrestling with some tough guy or bringing some juvenile back to their parents at 2 a.m.. 

Maybe it's where I live, because I certainly didn't see this stuff when I lived in Northern Virginia outside of DC, but I wasn't a cop either, and I didn't deal with the general public on a day to day basis.  It kills me to hear stories from CAP members on here and CadetStuff about how they dislike police officers, think they're all crooked or accuse them of carrying a chip on their shoulder.  But you know what, I have a very new found respect for cops in the U.S..  As far as I'm concerned, cops take more abuse; put up with more crap and for the most part, as far as I can tell, very few people give the respect they're due.  Now this doesn't mean saluting a cop or going up to one and saying "thank you", but simply understanding that they (I guess it's "we" now) deal with a lot of dirtbags.  In fact, our whole purpose in life is to deal with people who break the law, no matter how small.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but I've learned a few things about people in a very short time.  Things that I just can't explain or even understand myself.  From seeing young children either beaten, abused or neglected, to drunk adults who would otherwise be just fine if they didn't t-bone the soccer mom with a van filled with young kids.  Grrr....society.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Flying Pig on March 04, 2008, 03:38:12 AM
I feel ya Bro!
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: JohnKachenmeister on March 04, 2008, 05:03:28 AM
If I wanted people to thank me for doing my job, I'd have become a fireman!
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Flying Pig on March 04, 2008, 04:39:49 PM
Oh come on John......under that tough retired Florida exterior, we know there is a trace of a soul somewhere!!! ;D  Besides, we all know that all fireman do is sit in their lazy boy chairs and watch American Idol. 
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: JohnKachenmeister on March 04, 2008, 06:49:11 PM
I tried to make my kid become a fireman.

I personally taught him how to read TV Guide.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: davidsinn on March 04, 2008, 07:11:09 PM
Bradbury FTW
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Hoser on March 04, 2008, 07:40:05 PM
When I have been pulled over, I INTENTIONALLY pull into a parking if possible because that removes the potential of the cop getting ironed out by rubberneckers. I've seen it twice in 30 years of EMS. Kach's comment that the person knows he's going to get arrested is typical cop BS.  ---->The assumption that everyone is guilty and only out for themselves. I was doing my part to see the cop that pulled me over goes home at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: davedove on March 04, 2008, 08:01:08 PM
Quote from: Hoser on March 04, 2008, 07:40:05 PM
typical cop BS.  ---->The assumption that everyone is guilty and only out for themselves.

It's not really BS.  Cops HAVE to assume that any encounter could be deadly.  Too many officers have been killed on a "routine" traffic stop.

I always give the police the benefit of the doubt.  They are doing a tough job and seldom receive any recognition for it.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Hawk200 on March 04, 2008, 08:05:42 PM
Quote from: Hoser on March 04, 2008, 07:40:05 PM
When I have been pulled over, I INTENTIONALLY pull into a parking if possible because that removes the potential of the cop getting ironed out by rubberneckers. I've seen it twice in 30 years of EMS. Kach's comment that the person knows he's going to get arrested is typical cop BS.  ---->The assumption that everyone is guilty and only out for themselves. I was doing my part to see the cop that pulled me over goes home at the end of the day.

I'm not a cop, and I know exactly what Kach meant. Most people with outstanding arrest warrants know that if they get pulled over on a traffic stop, they're going to jail. It wasn't a statement that everyone getting stopped is guilty, only that the guilty ones know what's going to happen when they do get stopped. A lot of criminals with outstanding warrants get taken in this way.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Smokey on March 04, 2008, 08:23:13 PM
Thank you all for your input...after 36 years of doing this I'm still amazed at those of you out there who know my job better than me.   Now can you tell me where all the donut shops are?

I think I will remember that when I tell my doctor how to perform his next surgery.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: JohnKachenmeister on March 04, 2008, 08:39:01 PM
Quote from: Smokey on March 04, 2008, 08:23:13 PM
Thank you all for your input...after 36 years of doing this I'm still amazed at those of you out there who know my job better than me.   Now can you tell me where all the donut shops are?

I think I will remember that when I tell my doctor how to perform his next surgery.

Smokey:

You hit on a good analogy.

You go to a doctor, and he notices a red skin rash.  It could be:

1.  Poison ivy.
2.  Syphillis.
3.  AIDS.
4.  Measles.
5.  Allergy to something.
6.  A million other things.

The doctor doesn't know unless he does more tests, inquiries, and examinations.  If he is a good doctor, though, he has to consider that any of these are possible.

A cop stops a motorist for a traffic violation, and the motorist makes a point of parking legally in a public lot.  This could mean:

1.  The driver is drunk, knows he is about to be arrested, and does not want his car towed.

2.  The driver is wanted, knows he is about to be arrested, and does not want his car towed.

3.  The driver is armed and wanted, and wants a place with fewer witnesses to kill the police officer.

4.  The driver needs a few extra seconds to hide his dope.

5.  The driver needs a few extra seconds to get to his gun to kill the police officer.

6.  The driver wants to get somewhere with less light to hide the bloodstains on the seat from the 6-year old girl he raped and murdered.

7.  The 6-year old girl he raped and murdered is in the trunk, and he does not want his car towed because an inventory search will have to list her body on the tow report.

8.  The driver has a suspended license. or no license at all, and does not want his car towed.

9.  Or... it could mean nothing.

The officer does not know until he does more inquiries.  But based on his experience, driving off the road to stop is sort of like a suspicious rash.  Could be nothing, could be deadly.  Gotta check further.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Eeyore on March 04, 2008, 10:02:42 PM
So, do police officers generally not want you to pull into a parking lot when stopped?

The few times I have been pulled over I tend to try and pull into a parking lot or gas station, just because it isn't on the road and therefore I, and the officer are less likely to get hit by someone who isn't paying attention on the road.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: JohnKachenmeister on March 04, 2008, 11:57:48 PM
You guys are starting to sound a little dense.

It does not matter.  If you are not drunk, wanted, or otherwise a criminal, we will find that out soon enough.

And... pulling into a gas station is not pulling into a parking lot and parking legally.  You're still gonna get towed if you get arrested.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Smokey on March 05, 2008, 12:02:38 AM
Please let the police officer direct you where to stop.  Sometimes if you pull into a parking lot, gas station, etc you will block access by legitimate customers.  When we make a stop, we park our cars to give us a tactical advantage which may tie up things even worse if you try to "help" us.  When on the roadway , we offset our cars to the left of yours to give us a safety lane. Yeah, sometimes we still get picked off. But please let us dictate the terms of the stop. It really is safer for us to do it.   You may have been stopped a few times in your life , but some officers may conduct in excess of 25 stops per day. We kinda have this down to an art.

Thank you for your support....even if it is in the way of a traffic fine ;D
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Stonewall on March 05, 2008, 02:13:31 AM
When I lived in Northern Virginia there was some dude going around in an unmarked Crown Vic with lights he got from Gall's or something.  On at least 2 counts, I think it was more like 3 or 4, he pulled over women and raped them.  In particular, one happened in Annandale, VA 2 blocks from my buddy's house (a former cadet turned good friend).  The Fairfax County Police advised the citizens to pull into a well lit area, preferably a populated parking lot, if they didn't feel comfortable or things just didn't look right.  Makes sense to me.

I've been pulled over a few times in my life and I pulled over on side of the road where it was safest for myself and the officer.  All 3 or 4 times the officer was in a marked unit and it was during daylight.  No doubt in my mind the officers were not faking the funk and out to hurt me.

With that said, if I saw some Honda Accord behind me with a visor light flashing, I would absolutely NOT pull over immediately and look for another officer or at a minimum, a populated parking lot.  I'd also get on my cell and call 911 to confirm my suspicions.

Sometimes Common sense prevails.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: flyerthom on March 05, 2008, 03:50:42 AM
Quote from: Smokey on March 04, 2008, 08:23:13 PM
Thank you all for your input...after 36 years of doing this I'm still amazed at those of you out there who know my job better than me.   Now can you tell me where all the donut shops are?

I think I will remember that when I tell my doctor how to perform his next surgery.


Krispy Creams (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=Las+Vegas+Doughnuts&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl)


Yes, I am a soul less wise guy   >:D






In all due seriousness, the main concern for everyone is safety. With the few posted caveats about fake police, it's best to just follow direction. It's like getting intercepted while flying. Just follow directions. The one I posted and the one Stonewall posted came from the PD so the officers knew what was up. I know in Vegas Metro warned the public and put out a PR program. A citizen should be aware of local news.

And if you do get pulled over, you're not going to salvage your bad day or get out of anything by being a jerk.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: jb512 on March 05, 2008, 05:36:55 AM
I have 11 years LE experience; all on the street and mostly with a Sheriff's Office where I usually don't have backup during a stop.

I agree with Smokey 100%, and he has had the best answers.  Recruiter had the worst.

When I light someone up, I want them to come to a complete stop as soon as possible directly against the rightmost portion of the roadway, as the law requires.  If it is a highway with a shoulder, pull as far off the shoulder as you can.  I hate pulling into parking lots because most people circle and circle until they find a parking spot and not only does it put me in a bad tactical position, I end up blocking access to other vehicles.  If I need you to move, I'll tell you over the PA, or I'll tell you after I approach and get your license.

Pulling to the right and remaining straight allows me the best vantage point to the car, and gives my camera the best angle on the stop.

If you are not directly involved in the stop, please do not approach me or my car.  Don't ask what's going on, don't ask for directions, don't tell me some guy cut you off 5 miles back on a road that I can never get to in time to catch the car, and certainly don't pull up behind my car where I can't see you and where you are blocking my lights.  I'm not being mean, I'm just watching my a$$ during the business I have at hand.  If something is going on in your store, then I will be making contact with you as soon as I possibly can. 

I usually try to accomodate people who make these mistakes, but I've been known to tell people to move on because every second I'm talking to you is a second that I'm not watching the violator.

We're not being rude and we're not being disrespectful, we're just making sure that we go home every night to our family.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Gunner C on March 05, 2008, 06:14:46 AM
Quote from: Hoser on March 04, 2008, 07:40:05 PM
Kach's comment that the person knows he's going to get arrested is typical cop BS.

Using the words "typical" and "cop" and "BS" aren't the best choices in the same sentence.  I'd say "typical" and "cop" and "experienced".   >:(

We live in dangerous times and too often the only thing that stands between the citizen and an untimely death is one of those cops you were talking about.  I'm an intelligence guy and the best intel we get is from cops on the streets.  I have a great deal of respect for them - so should you.

GC
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Flying Pig on March 05, 2008, 08:43:44 AM
"Police officers conduct every traffic stop extending the olive branch of peace, while at the same time, having a tactical plan to kill everyone inside the vehicle." - Gordon Graham, Attorney

Keep that in that back of your mind next time you are stopped.  Because its at the front of mine.

Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: jb512 on March 05, 2008, 09:21:13 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 05, 2008, 08:43:44 AM
"Police officers conduct every traffic stop extending the olive branch of peace, while at the same time, having a tactical plan to kill everyone inside the vehicle." - Gordon Graham, Attorney

Keep that in that back of your mind next time you are stopped.  Because its at the front of mine.

Awesome.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Maj Ballard on March 05, 2008, 11:55:00 AM
I've been pulled over three times in my life. The first was in high school because I was in the "wrong" part of town with a Black boy (who was, incidentally, an attorney's son and captain of the debate team) in the car with me. The first thing the officer said when he approached the car was, "Boy! Get the hell out! Sweetheart don't you know better?" Yes, I filed a complaint. Yes, that officer is still on the force. In fact, he's a Captain. Go figure.

The other two times were after midnight, when I was on my way home from work. Both were on residential roads with very little light. In both instances, I turned on my hazards and drove a little further (40 yds or so) to find a better lit area.

There have been several instances in the last several years of people in north Florida driving Crown Vics, impersonating officers, and in one case sexually assaulting women on "traffic stops." In other cases, the women felt uneasy and drove to a public place. That decision probably saved their lives.

After these incidents, the police began telling women in particular to do just as I did: indicate intention to pull over, find a well-lit area, and if you feel uneasy call 911 to confirm it is a legitimate stop. They came on the news and told us that any "real" cop won't have a problem with that course of action. Were they wrong?
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: davedove on March 05, 2008, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: Captain B on March 05, 2008, 11:55:00 AM
There have been several instances in the last several years of people in north Florida driving Crown Vics, impersonating officers, and in one case sexually assaulting women on "traffic stops." In other cases, the women felt uneasy and drove to a public place. That decision probably saved their lives.

After these incidents, the police began telling women in particular to do just as I did: indicate intention to pull over, find a well-lit area, and if you feel uneasy call 911 to confirm it is a legitimate stop. They came on the news and told us that any "real" cop won't have a problem with that course of action. Were they wrong?

No, because it was the police telling you to do it.  At that point it became the accepted procedure.  All of the police on patrol should have known and expected it.

BUT, that doesn't mean it would be the accepted procedure in other areas.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Maj Ballard on March 05, 2008, 01:04:54 PM
This isn't the only area I've heard that advice/instruction given, though. Motorists are told all the time (on the news, by AAA, by ubiquitous e-mail forwards, etc.) to follow the procedures I described, including "driving to a well lit area." I honestly want to know if that advice is, across the board, wrong.

I mean, case in point: Here's a quote from a random law enforcement site I found while Googling "traffic stop"

QuoteWhat should you do when an officer signals you to pull over

Pull your vehicle over as far to the right of the roadway as is safely possible.  If there is a safe, non-congested area, such as a parking lot, within a reasonable distance, pull off the road, stop and place your vehicle in park.  Being stopped at night, particularly along a dark stretch of road, can heighten the stress for motorists and officers.  Officers do not object to drivers proceeding to a nearby well-lit area.  Simply acknowledge the officer by turning on your turn signal and drive at a reduced speed.

This is from a police department website.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Stonewall on March 05, 2008, 01:48:57 PM
Quote from: Captain B on March 05, 2008, 11:55:00 AM
I've been pulled over three times in my life. The first was in high school because I was in the "wrong" part of town with a Black boy in the car with me.

I've heard this type of thing several times.

So they told you they pulled you over because you were white, had a black kid in the car with you, and were in the wrong part of town?  Yes, that does sound bad, and wrong.

As someone who only works at night, I can tell you this, 95% of the time I am unable to see the person's race, gender or often times how many people are in the car until I'm up at the car with my flashlight shining in.  There are a million reasons to pull someone over, most are justified, some are but don't seem so.

When they told your friend to get out of the car, did they send him walking?  Put him in cuffs?  Tell him to get back in the car?
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Maj Ballard on March 05, 2008, 02:30:36 PM
It was in the daytime. I lived in a tiny town in Missouri. The officer knew exactly who was in the car (and who our families were) when he pulled us over. He made my friend sit in the police car while he talked to me. He lectured me about "knowing better," and "what people would think," and how he ought to go talk to my father, etc. Incidently, my dad was fully aware of who I was with and where we were going. It was ridiculous. Afterward, he let my friend get back in the car and told him to "watch himself." That was my first (but certainly not last) lesson in racial politics where I grew up. What's scary is that it was 1995 and not 1955. /drift
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Stonewall on March 05, 2008, 02:44:19 PM
Gotcha, got your "after midnight" example mixed up.

Yep, that's wrong.  No doubt about it.  As Flying Pig said, law enforcement, like the military and the government, get their employees from society and there's no telling how some people will act, even after things like psychological testing, polygraphs, interviews and background checks.

Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: JohnKachenmeister on March 05, 2008, 03:31:22 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on March 05, 2008, 02:44:19 PM
Gotcha, got your "after midnight" example mixed up.

Yep, that's wrong.  No doubt about it.  As Flying Pig said, law enforcement, like the military and the government, get their employees from society and there's no telling how some people will act, even after things like psychological testing, polygraphs, interviews and background checks.



Actually, Stonewall, your mileage may vary, but I think we actually got MORE nut-cases on the police department after they started psychological testing.  Psychology is not a precise science, and the tests are imperfect.  But once it is "Passed" one has documentation of sanity, and gut feelings, history of poor judgement, and interview performance are swept away because of the allure of this pseudo-scientific testing.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Stonewall on March 05, 2008, 05:36:52 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 05, 2008, 03:31:22 PM

Actually, Stonewall, your mileage may vary, but I think we actually got MORE nut-cases on the police department after they started psychological testing.  Psychology is not a precise science, and the tests are imperfect.  But once it is "Passed" one has documentation of sanity, and gut feelings, history of poor judgement, and interview performance are swept away because of the allure of this pseudo-scientific testing.

You're right.  When I worked for an alphabet agency in DC I often wondered how some folks passed the above tests and weren't later brought back in for their actions.  But once "cleared" unless something is so obvious it's an issue of security or safety, many things will go unnoticed.

Good point.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Hawk200 on March 05, 2008, 06:17:06 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 05, 2008, 03:31:22 PMActually, Stonewall, your mileage may vary, but I think we actually got MORE nut-cases on the police department after they started psychological testing.  Psychology is not a precise science, and the tests are imperfect.  But once it is "Passed" one has documentation of sanity, and gut feelings, history of poor judgement, and interview performance are swept away because of the allure of this pseudo-scientific testing.

They don't even have to be cops to be a nutjob claiming it. Had a guy where I worked that started out as a "policeman". One girl that worked there had a bit of a leadfoot, and he told here that when he got his radar gun, he was gonna catch her speeding and lock her up. She called the police department, and asked if he was a cop. They told her no.

After being busted on that, he claimed that he was a constable. Asked my father about it (he's been a deputy for almost forty years), and he asked around. Nothing there either. The manager's mother works for the Sherrif, and she looked into it. Once he had the info, he confronted the guy. So ended his "constable" career.

However, he became a "bounty hunter".  He announced this (literally) one day in the same manner as an 8 year old would. He transferred to our other store a couple weeks later. After a couple weeks there, he was fired after walking into someone's house and demanding to see her credit card when he was delivering her pizza. Didn't have a job two minutes after returning to the store.

Turns out he had spent time in the local psych hospital. From what I understand, he would never become an actual cop. I think my biggest worry was that he would stop some girl, lock her in his basement, and feed her bread and water.

It's the wackos like this that are the reason cops tell people to find someplace safely lighted. Those freaks are out there.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: SKYKING607 on March 05, 2008, 08:02:27 PM
I had a felony suspect detained at gunpoint and was awaiting back-units and some lugnut approached me (within 3 feet) wanting to know what's going on. 

Dude...you could see it's a traffic stop.  Do not stand within 5' of the first unit.  What were you thinking?  Just go with it and return to normal operations.  Does the officer owe you an explanation?  No.  From your post...you figured it out yourself.  (Traffic stop).

I've had positive contacts with the public after "situations" and some negative ones.  Trust me, if this is a traffic stop and you are standing 5' from the first police vehicle...you are to
*&$%^&$ close.


Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: jb512 on March 05, 2008, 08:09:43 PM
As we say, if I wanted to make everybody happy I'd have been a fireman.

;D
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: SJFedor on March 05, 2008, 08:44:06 PM
Quote from: edmo1 on March 04, 2008, 10:02:42 PM
So, do police officers generally not want you to pull into a parking lot when stopped?

The few times I have been pulled over I tend to try and pull into a parking lot or gas station, just because it isn't on the road and therefore I, and the officer are less likely to get hit by someone who isn't paying attention on the road.

I've only been pulled over 1 time here in TN. However, I do get to spend a lot of time with our fine Metro Nashville PD officers at work (as they escort in the DUI they pulled over who 'All of a sudden' developed chest pain during the stop). During my stop:

1) I was going faster then the speed limit (85 in 70, 1am on a Saturday night/Sunday morning, trying to get home from an 18hr day at the hospital and wasn't paying attention)

2) The officer lit me up on a part of I-24 where, even if I was grinding the side of my car against the barrier, there'd only be 6 inches of room for the officer to work

So, I acknowledged him stopping me by turning on my 4-ways, moved to the right most travel lane, slowed to about 60, and continued for about 1/2 mile until the shoulder opened up.

When he asked why I didn't pull over right away, I told him I didn't feel that where he lit me up was a safe area to stop, and wanted to find a place where I could vacate the road better and give him room to work.

The only reason I even thought of that was because a few weeks prior, we had an MNPD officer who came in injured from being hit by another vehicle on a stop.

He asked where I was coming from, I told him I was coming from work, he looked at my hospital ID badge, asked me to slow down, and sent me on my way.

I actually got to sit and talk w/ him one night about 2 months later, when he was babysitting a DUI that wrapped his car around a lightpole. Scarily enough, he remembered me. Eventually I asked about the traffic stop, and asked if there was anything I could have done different. And what he said was very similar to the things Col Bowden, Maj Kach, and the other LEOs on here said, like when they light you up, they've already decided this is where they want you to stop. But he also did appreciate my thought and caring, and understood from my background, what my thought process was. He also said he wasn't that concerned about me going an extra 1/2 mile, mainly because of this strapped to the back of my car:
(http://tn.gov/revenue/vehicle/licenseplates/emergency/emergency.jpg)

99% of the officers out there are decent human beings, just doing a job that a lot of people look down upon, and do it while people are spitting in their faces/running from them/shooting at them. I hold a ton of respect for them, and every rare time I have an officer in my ER as a patient, I make sure I bend over backwards to take care of them, because they're the ones out there at all hours taking care of us, whether we know it or not.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Flying Pig on March 06, 2008, 05:58:00 PM
I thought of this thread last night.

I am traveling on Hwy 168 last night which is a decent size 4 lane highway, when a Mustang flies past me doing about 90mph.  I follow the guy quite a distance.  We are now hitting 95mph. I light the guy up.  Almost immediately he slams on his brakes and jerks to the shoulder and stops.  This is odd behavior.

Anyway, He's upset at me when I get up to the car asking me what authority I have to stop him.  I tell him about the speed.  He again asks me what authority did I have to stop him. To make a long story short....His Criminal Justice Professor told him that ONLY the California Highway Patrol had the authority to conduct vehicle stops on state highways.  He then proceeded to school me on what my authority was a Deputy Sheriff and that I needed to go back to the academy.  I asked him, if thats the case, then why do I have a book of cites in my car that say "TRAFFIC" on them?  So, I imagine today in class, he and his instructor are pondering over a yellow carbon copy of a traffic citation issued by a Deputy Sheriff. 

So maybe he will get his professor to pay the fine.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: mynetdude on March 06, 2008, 08:32:59 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 06, 2008, 05:58:00 PM
I thought of this thread last night.

I am traveling on Hwy 168 last night which is a decent size 4 lane highway, when a Mustang flies past me doing about 90mph.  I follow the guy quite a distance.  We are now hitting 95mph. I light the guy up.  Almost immediately he slams on his brakes and jerks to the shoulder and stops.  This is odd behavior.

Anyway, He's upset at me when I get up to the car asking me what authority I have to stop him.  I tell him about the speed.  He again asks me what authority did I have to stop him. To make a long story short....His Criminal Justice Professor told him that ONLY the California Highway Patrol had the authority to conduct vehicle stops on state highways.  He then proceeded to school me on what my authority was a Deputy Sheriff and that I needed to go back to the academy.  I asked him, if thats the case, then why do I have a book of cites in my car that say "TRAFFIC" on them?  So, I imagine today in class, he and his instructor are pondering over a yellow carbon copy of a traffic citation issued by a Deputy Sheriff. 

So maybe he will get his professor to pay the fine.


heh I'll bet not, his professor is probably going to say "I didn't say that"
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: stillamarine on March 06, 2008, 08:35:14 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 06, 2008, 05:58:00 PM
I thought of this thread last night.

I am traveling on Hwy 168 last night which is a decent size 4 lane highway, when a Mustang flies past me doing about 90mph.  I follow the guy quite a distance.  We are now hitting 95mph. I light the guy up.  Almost immediately he slams on his brakes and jerks to the shoulder and stops.  This is odd behavior.

Anyway, He's upset at me when I get up to the car asking me what authority I have to stop him.  I tell him about the speed.  He again asks me what authority did I have to stop him. To make a long story short....His Criminal Justice Professor told him that ONLY the California Highway Patrol had the authority to conduct vehicle stops on state highways.  He then proceeded to school me on what my authority was a Deputy Sheriff and that I needed to go back to the academy.  I asked him, if thats the case, then why do I have a book of cites in my car that say "TRAFFIC" on them?  So, I imagine today in class, he and his instructor are pondering over a yellow carbon copy of a traffic citation issued by a Deputy Sheriff. 

So maybe he will get his professor to pay the fine.


We have a similar thing here. Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission LEOs are fully certified State LEOs and as such can enforce laws other than those related to, well fish and wildlife. I love to see someone go speeding past me, slow down when they see a truck with lightbar driving in front of me, then after seeing its FWC zoom past it, only to have the truck flip on the lights. :D
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Ned on March 06, 2008, 09:17:54 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 06, 2008, 05:58:00 PM
I thought of this thread last night.

I am traveling on Hwy 168 last night which is a decent size 4 lane highway, when a Mustang flies past me doing about 90mph.  I follow the guy quite a distance.  We are now hitting 95mph. I light the guy up.  Almost immediately he slams on his brakes and jerks to the shoulder and stops.  This is odd behavior.

Anyway, He's upset at me when I get up to the car asking me what authority I have to stop him.  I tell him about the speed.  He again asks me what authority did I have to stop him. To make a long story short....His Criminal Justice Professor told him that ONLY the California Highway Patrol had the authority to conduct vehicle stops on state highways.  He then proceeded to school me on what my authority was a Deputy Sheriff and that I needed to go back to the academy.  I asked him, if thats the case, then why do I have a book of cites in my car that say "TRAFFIC" on them?  So, I imagine today in class, he and his instructor are pondering over a yellow carbon copy of a traffic citation issued by a Deputy Sheriff. 

So maybe he will get his professor to pay the fine.


Ahhh that takes me back . . . My first full-time LE job was as a University of California Police officer.  (There are times I still can't believe I quit that job. ;))

Many, many discussions with members of the public who were a mite confused by the whole "sworn peace officer in and for the State of California" thing.

Of course, I was also keenly aware of my agency's "4 hour minimum OT" rule for court, so during a traffic stop like the one described by Flying Pig, I would always reply "Hmmmm, good point.  You should set this for trial and absolutely tell the judge about that. Cuz if you're right, it'll have to be dismissed!  I could even get in trouble."  >:D


That was worth about $200 a month.  Hee-hee. 



Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: mynetdude on March 06, 2008, 11:23:56 PM
Quote from: stillamarine on March 06, 2008, 08:35:14 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 06, 2008, 05:58:00 PM
I thought of this thread last night.

I am traveling on Hwy 168 last night which is a decent size 4 lane highway, when a Mustang flies past me doing about 90mph.  I follow the guy quite a distance.  We are now hitting 95mph. I light the guy up.  Almost immediately he slams on his brakes and jerks to the shoulder and stops.  This is odd behavior.

Anyway, He's upset at me when I get up to the car asking me what authority I have to stop him.  I tell him about the speed.  He again asks me what authority did I have to stop him. To make a long story short....His Criminal Justice Professor told him that ONLY the California Highway Patrol had the authority to conduct vehicle stops on state highways.  He then proceeded to school me on what my authority was a Deputy Sheriff and that I needed to go back to the academy.  I asked him, if thats the case, then why do I have a book of cites in my car that say "TRAFFIC" on them?  So, I imagine today in class, he and his instructor are pondering over a yellow carbon copy of a traffic citation issued by a Deputy Sheriff. 

So maybe he will get his professor to pay the fine.


We have a similar thing here. Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission LEOs are fully certified State LEOs and as such can enforce laws other than those related to, well fish and wildlife. I love to see someone go speeding past me, slow down when they see a truck with lightbar driving in front of me, then after seeing its FWC zoom past it, only to have the truck flip on the lights. :D

I was going to ask about something similar, on occassion here in Oregon where I live I'll see a vehicle marked in white/green that say "Law Enforcement" (note it doesn't say police, sherrif, state police, etc) I assume these are BLM/US Forrest Service/OF&W (Oregon Fish & Wildlife) or something of the likes. I have never seen them do a traffic stop, however I wouldn't be surprised if they did as they are "Law Enforcement" hence they can enforce the law the question is... why don't they? Or maybe I should ask why are they not common helping out or whatever? I guess their role is important in other areas?

That also being said, I would also not be surprised if an out of jurisdiction LEO was driving in a jurisdiction he was visiting could make a traffic stop until in jurisdiction units arrived.  I'm sure there are proceedures/red tape for this to happen though.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: flyerthom on March 06, 2008, 11:35:01 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 05, 2008, 06:17:06 PM

They don't even have to be cops to be a nutjob claiming it. Had a guy where I worked that started out as a "policeman". One girl that worked there had a bit of a leadfoot, and he told here that when he got his radar gun, he was gonna catch her speeding and lock her up. She called the police department, and asked if he was a cop. They told her no.

Oh man, bet the medics can fill in some of these, like the one patient I had who claimed his alcohol problem was from Vietnam and Agent Orange exposure. He was born in 1970.

Or the woman who claimed she was friends with John Kennedy, flew Huey's in Vietnam -1n 1962 - and almost was captured by the Viet Kong - date of birth on her ID 1957.  ::)
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: mynetdude on March 07, 2008, 01:01:06 AM
Quote from: flyerthom on March 06, 2008, 11:35:01 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 05, 2008, 06:17:06 PM

They don't even have to be cops to be a nutjob claiming it. Had a guy where I worked that started out as a "policeman". One girl that worked there had a bit of a leadfoot, and he told here that when he got his radar gun, he was gonna catch her speeding and lock her up. She called the police department, and asked if he was a cop. They told her no.

Oh man, bet the medics can fill in some of these, like the one patient I had who claimed his alcohol problem was from Vietnam and Agent Orange exposure. He was born in 1970.

Or the woman who claimed she was friends with John Kennedy, flew Huey's in Vietnam -1n 1962 - and almost was captured by the Viet Kong - date of birth on her ID 1957.  ::)

So these people were "minature adults" or did all these activities "pre-birth"? :D :P
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: JoeTomasone on March 07, 2008, 02:23:29 AM

Actually, in both places where I've lived (NY and FL), police are granted police powers by the State - meaning that while they may work in and get paid by a given jurisdiction, they are police officers with full police powers anywhere in the State they go.     One guy I went to school with learned that the hard way when he was speeding in front of a police car from the neighboring County - he figured he didn't have to slow down since he couldn't be pulled over, right?   Well, apparently that offended the officer, who lit him up and wrote him up.  :)

Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: mynetdude on March 07, 2008, 02:35:59 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 07, 2008, 02:23:29 AM

Actually, in both places where I've lived (NY and FL), police are granted police powers by the State - meaning that while they may work in and get paid by a given jurisdiction, they are police officers with full police powers anywhere in the State they go.     One guy I went to school with learned that the hard way when he was speeding in front of a police car from the neighboring County - he figured he didn't have to slow down since he couldn't be pulled over, right?   Well, apparently that offended the officer, who lit him up and wrote him up.  :)



police are granted police powers? That makes no logical sense here... to me it doesn't anyway.  Like I was saying, out of jurisdiction procedures vary from state to state really.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: JoeTomasone on March 07, 2008, 03:38:42 AM
Quote from: mynetdude on March 07, 2008, 02:35:59 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 07, 2008, 02:23:29 AM

Actually, in both places where I've lived (NY and FL), police are granted police powers by the State - meaning that while they may work in and get paid by a given jurisdiction, they are police officers with full police powers anywhere in the State they go.     One guy I went to school with learned that the hard way when he was speeding in front of a police car from the neighboring County - he figured he didn't have to slow down since he couldn't be pulled over, right?   Well, apparently that offended the officer, who lit him up and wrote him up.  :)



police are granted police powers? That makes no logical sense here... to me it doesn't anyway.  Like I was saying, out of jurisdiction procedures vary from state to state really.


Let me rephrase/clarify:

"Actually, in both places where I've lived (NY and FL), police are granted their police powers by the State, not by the individual jurisdiction"

Better?

Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: mynetdude on March 07, 2008, 03:44:28 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 07, 2008, 03:38:42 AM
Quote from: mynetdude on March 07, 2008, 02:35:59 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 07, 2008, 02:23:29 AM

Actually, in both places where I've lived (NY and FL), police are granted police powers by the State - meaning that while they may work in and get paid by a given jurisdiction, they are police officers with full police powers anywhere in the State they go.     One guy I went to school with learned that the hard way when he was speeding in front of a police car from the neighboring County - he figured he didn't have to slow down since he couldn't be pulled over, right?   Well, apparently that offended the officer, who lit him up and wrote him up.  :)



police are granted police powers? That makes no logical sense here... to me it doesn't anyway.  Like I was saying, out of jurisdiction procedures vary from state to state really.


Let me rephrase/clarify:

"Actually, in both places where I've lived (NY and FL), police are granted their police powers by the State, not by the individual jurisdiction"

Better?



Thank you much sir :)
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Flying Pig on March 07, 2008, 07:39:09 PM
In Ca. I am a law enforcement officer anywhere in the State.  Although my jurisdiction is the County of Fresno, if I am in San Diego, 500 miles away, I am still a cop with full authority.  Now, I don't patrol neighboring counties,  because I am not paid to patrol other areas outside of Fresno, and there are some logistical/legal concerns that arise, such as if I witness a crime and make an arrest while on patrol in a neighboring county, I have to book that person into the county jail in that county.  Then all of the court cases would be in that county.  So, basically, if I run across something, I call the local guys and turn it over to them.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: SAR-EMT1 on March 07, 2008, 08:52:42 PM
Now ive sat out and read the posts like a good boy. Now Im throwing in my two cents as relates to EMS...

I have been transporting a full arrest in the ambulance and running in excess of the speed limit with lights and siren ON.
However a crusier flipped his bar on and followed me til we got to the hospital. He then tried to detain me and obtain my license, I politely ignored him for the moment though since I needed to move the pt into the ER. Once I came back out he stated that he wanted to ensure i had a pt onboard.
-- Im still not sure why my partner and I might be running code 3 in an ambulance if it didnt involve a matter of life and death. -- have any of you lawdogs seen an ambulance going code three to lunch or something?

In an ambulance I only turn on the lights and sirens when either the medics interventions are only 'buying-time' enroute to the hospital or when the trip TO the scene exceeds 5 minutes. Its safer for us to drive without the lights and sirens, and somehow our GPS systems have proven that we complete trips faster without them.

99% of the time my siren and lightbar stay off. Studies have show that cops, firefighters and EMS all get hurt more along a roadway. Studies have shown that folks are drawn to red and blue strobes at night. Some departments are experimenting with setups that only display amber or clear lights to the rear.

As far as EMS and LE relate. What do you as police elsewhere in the country like to see or not see in regards to us blueshirts?
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: JoeTomasone on March 07, 2008, 10:39:40 PM


I remember reading a newspaper expose many years ago in which reporters discovered and taped ambulances that were indeed running lights and sirens without a valid emergency reason.    If I recall correctly, most were trying to beat heavy traffic and lights at the end of a shift - and they caught some Police at it as well.    This was 15-20 years ago, so I'm a little fuzzy on the details now.   

Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: JohnKachenmeister on March 08, 2008, 01:43:10 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 07, 2008, 08:52:42 PM
Now ive sat out and read the posts like a good boy. Now Im throwing in my two cents as relates to EMS...

I have been transporting a full arrest in the ambulance and running in excess of the speed limit with lights and siren ON.
However a crusier flipped his bar on and followed me til we got to the hospital. He then tried to detain me and obtain my license, I politely ignored him for the moment though since I needed to move the pt into the ER. Once I came back out he stated that he wanted to ensure i had a pt onboard.
-- Im still not sure why my partner and I might be running code 3 in an ambulance if it didnt involve a matter of life and death. -- have any of you lawdogs seen an ambulance going code three to lunch or something?

In an ambulance I only turn on the lights and sirens when either the medics interventions are only 'buying-time' enroute to the hospital or when the trip TO the scene exceeds 5 minutes. Its safer for us to drive without the lights and sirens, and somehow our GPS systems have proven that we complete trips faster without them.

99% of the time my siren and lightbar stay off. Studies have show that cops, firefighters and EMS all get hurt more along a roadway. Studies have shown that folks are drawn to red and blue strobes at night. Some departments are experimenting with setups that only display amber or clear lights to the rear.

As far as EMS and LE relate. What do you as police elsewhere in the country like to see or not see in regards to us blueshirts?

Well... did your driver run someone off the road?  Otherwise, I cannot explain this behavior.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: mynetdude on March 08, 2008, 05:53:00 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 08, 2008, 01:43:10 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 07, 2008, 08:52:42 PM
Now ive sat out and read the posts like a good boy. Now Im throwing in my two cents as relates to EMS...

I have been transporting a full arrest in the ambulance and running in excess of the speed limit with lights and siren ON.
However a crusier flipped his bar on and followed me til we got to the hospital. He then tried to detain me and obtain my license, I politely ignored him for the moment though since I needed to move the pt into the ER. Once I came back out he stated that he wanted to ensure i had a pt onboard.
-- Im still not sure why my partner and I might be running code 3 in an ambulance if it didnt involve a matter of life and death. -- have any of you lawdogs seen an ambulance going code three to lunch or something?

In an ambulance I only turn on the lights and sirens when either the medics interventions are only 'buying-time' enroute to the hospital or when the trip TO the scene exceeds 5 minutes. Its safer for us to drive without the lights and sirens, and somehow our GPS systems have proven that we complete trips faster without them.

99% of the time my siren and lightbar stay off. Studies have show that cops, firefighters and EMS all get hurt more along a roadway. Studies have shown that folks are drawn to red and blue strobes at night. Some departments are experimenting with setups that only display amber or clear lights to the rear.

As far as EMS and LE relate. What do you as police elsewhere in the country like to see or not see in regards to us blueshirts?

Well... did your driver run someone off the road?  Otherwise, I cannot explain this behavior.

Like I've said before I'm not EMS/LEO... alittle common sense though.

I have never seen this kind of behavior before, sure I don't see a problem with cops checking to make sure EMS/Fire or heck OTHER cops are not abusing the light/siren use.  We are all human, we all do stupid things from time to time and if using siren/lights is one of them then just let them know that it isn't ok and can have some consequences if such abuses continue.

I can only see some basic reasons for a cop to question the use of code 3 siren/lights is A) abuse, B) unsafe manuevers or unsafe driving etc C) like someone here said, collision with pedestrian or vehicle but then again I am sure the ambulance would have stopped???

In my community I have noticed just about every vehicle with light/sirens ON seem to stop (rolling stop/slow down) at every major intersection where there are other civilian vehicles present to give vehicles that are already IN the intersection or proceeding through the intersection (they could not safely stop in time) to pass through the intersection (this only lasts for a couple seconds).  The only exception to that I've seen is LE on a vehicle chase as they obviously don't seem to slow down (defeats the point of a chase if you're gonna slow down :P)

I have seen rare light bars ON and no sirens but they were going VERY fast, and on occasion they'll have their lights on and will sound a short burst to alert vehicles in front of them on rural roads as they don't need sirens all the way there.

I suppose you'd find light/siren abuse more in the major cities or the bad guys who want to "pretend" they are a cop or EMS whatever...
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: brasda91 on March 08, 2008, 06:40:18 AM
Quote from: mynetdude on March 08, 2008, 05:53:00 AM

I have seen rare light bars ON and no sirens but they were going VERY fast..


This is common when you are transporting a pt with say..a heart condition and the sound of the siren could cause the pt's condition to deteriorate.  The use of the lights allows the ambulance to be noticed and give the other drivers an opportunity to clear the way.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: jb512 on March 08, 2008, 10:33:48 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 07, 2008, 08:52:42 PM

99% of the time my siren and lightbar stay off. Studies have show that cops, firefighters and EMS all get hurt more along a roadway. Studies have shown that folks are drawn to red and blue strobes at night. Some departments are experimenting with setups that only display amber or clear lights to the rear.

As far as EMS and LE relate. What do you as police elsewhere in the country like to see or not see in regards to us blueshirts?

I really don't think that the lights are the issue when it comes to the roadside.  Anyone working on or near a roadway are going to be injured more often just because they're there.  Not only us, but road crews and contruction workers out there get hit just as often and they usually have tons of cones and barricades up.

I'm not a huge fan of all the amber and white because it doesn't identify you as an emergency vehicle as well.  People think it's a tow truck or construction truck and blow by just as fast.  At least the red and blues make people take their foot off the accelerator, if only for a second.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: jb512 on March 08, 2008, 10:40:07 AM
Quote from: mynetdude on March 08, 2008, 05:53:00 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 08, 2008, 01:43:10 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 07, 2008, 08:52:42 PM
Now ive sat out and read the posts like a good boy. Now Im throwing in my two cents as relates to EMS...

I have been transporting a full arrest in the ambulance and running in excess of the speed limit with lights and siren ON.
However a crusier flipped his bar on and followed me til we got to the hospital. He then tried to detain me and obtain my license, I politely ignored him for the moment though since I needed to move the pt into the ER. Once I came back out he stated that he wanted to ensure i had a pt onboard.
-- Im still not sure why my partner and I might be running code 3 in an ambulance if it didnt involve a matter of life and death. -- have any of you lawdogs seen an ambulance going code three to lunch or something?

In an ambulance I only turn on the lights and sirens when either the medics interventions are only 'buying-time' enroute to the hospital or when the trip TO the scene exceeds 5 minutes. Its safer for us to drive without the lights and sirens, and somehow our GPS systems have proven that we complete trips faster without them.

99% of the time my siren and lightbar stay off. Studies have show that cops, firefighters and EMS all get hurt more along a roadway. Studies have shown that folks are drawn to red and blue strobes at night. Some departments are experimenting with setups that only display amber or clear lights to the rear.

As far as EMS and LE relate. What do you as police elsewhere in the country like to see or not see in regards to us blueshirts?

Well... did your driver run someone off the road?  Otherwise, I cannot explain this behavior.

Like I've said before I'm not EMS/LEO... alittle common sense though.

I have never seen this kind of behavior before, sure I don't see a problem with cops checking to make sure EMS/Fire or heck OTHER cops are not abusing the light/siren use.  We are all human, we all do stupid things from time to time and if using siren/lights is one of them then just let them know that it isn't ok and can have some consequences if such abuses continue.

I can only see some basic reasons for a cop to question the use of code 3 siren/lights is A) abuse, B) unsafe manuevers or unsafe driving etc C) like someone here said, collision with pedestrian or vehicle but then again I am sure the ambulance would have stopped???

In my community I have noticed just about every vehicle with light/sirens ON seem to stop (rolling stop/slow down) at every major intersection where there are other civilian vehicles present to give vehicles that are already IN the intersection or proceeding through the intersection (they could not safely stop in time) to pass through the intersection (this only lasts for a couple seconds).  The only exception to that I've seen is LE on a vehicle chase as they obviously don't seem to slow down (defeats the point of a chase if you're gonna slow down :P)

I have seen rare light bars ON and no sirens but they were going VERY fast, and on occasion they'll have their lights on and will sound a short burst to alert vehicles in front of them on rural roads as they don't need sirens all the way there.

I suppose you'd find light/siren abuse more in the major cities or the bad guys who want to "pretend" they are a cop or EMS whatever...

I've never heard of a cop around here stopping an emergency vehicle for using their lights/siren just for the hell of it.  The only occasion I could think of is if we got a justified call of them doing it for no reason.

I work for a Sheriff's Office in north Austin with 1100+ square miles and we have a lot of areas up north that are pretty wide open.  If there is a lot of traffic around we keep the siren on, but once you get out in the sticks I usually turn mine off.  I'm usually the only K9 guy in the whole county, so I've had 20 or 30 minute code runs before and after a while that thing gets annoying.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: mynetdude on March 10, 2008, 12:52:11 AM
Quote from: jaybird512 on March 08, 2008, 10:33:48 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 07, 2008, 08:52:42 PM

99% of the time my siren and lightbar stay off. Studies have show that cops, firefighters and EMS all get hurt more along a roadway. Studies have shown that folks are drawn to red and blue strobes at night. Some departments are experimenting with setups that only display amber or clear lights to the rear.

As far as EMS and LE relate. What do you as police elsewhere in the country like to see or not see in regards to us blueshirts?

I really don't think that the lights are the issue when it comes to the roadside.  Anyone working on or near a roadway are going to be injured more often just because they're there.  Not only us, but road crews and contruction workers out there get hit just as often and they usually have tons of cones and barricades up.

I'm not a huge fan of all the amber and white because it doesn't identify you as an emergency vehicle as well.  People think it's a tow truck or construction truck and blow by just as fast.  At least the red and blues make people take their foot off the accelerator, if only for a second.


I've seen more fire trucks using blue now, most were not even using blue for the longest time.  For a long time I can remember white, red, yellow and even RED can be used by tow trucks in some places so Red/Amber-yellow doesn't exactly all help.

Adding blue to the mix, since blue is illegal on anything but emergency vehicles would make a huge distinguished difference.  AFAIK Red is still illegal on most non emergency vehicles except tow trucks (most use Amber though) and many ambulances and fire trucks use a lot of red as well.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: jb512 on March 10, 2008, 01:07:44 AM
Quote from: mynetdude on March 10, 2008, 12:52:11 AM
Quote from: jaybird512 on March 08, 2008, 10:33:48 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 07, 2008, 08:52:42 PM

99% of the time my siren and lightbar stay off. Studies have show that cops, firefighters and EMS all get hurt more along a roadway. Studies have shown that folks are drawn to red and blue strobes at night. Some departments are experimenting with setups that only display amber or clear lights to the rear.

As far as EMS and LE relate. What do you as police elsewhere in the country like to see or not see in regards to us blueshirts?

I really don't think that the lights are the issue when it comes to the roadside.  Anyone working on or near a roadway are going to be injured more often just because they're there.  Not only us, but road crews and contruction workers out there get hit just as often and they usually have tons of cones and barricades up.

I'm not a huge fan of all the amber and white because it doesn't identify you as an emergency vehicle as well.  People think it's a tow truck or construction truck and blow by just as fast.  At least the red and blues make people take their foot off the accelerator, if only for a second.


I've seen more fire trucks using blue now, most were not even using blue for the longest time.  For a long time I can remember white, red, yellow and even RED can be used by tow trucks in some places so Red/Amber-yellow doesn't exactly all help.

Adding blue to the mix, since blue is illegal on anything but emergency vehicles would make a huge distinguished difference.  AFAIK Red is still illegal on most non emergency vehicles except tow trucks (most use Amber though) and many ambulances and fire trucks use a lot of red as well.

Those colors differ from state to state.  In Texas, red is the only color reserved for emergency vehicles, and that only applies to the front of the vehicle.  Fire and EMS use everything (mostly red/white), and cops use red/blue here.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: Flying Pig on March 10, 2008, 01:54:20 AM
I dont think Ive ever seen an EMS vehicle with blue.  In CA, cops have red and blue, and EMS have red and white, green, yellow.

In fact, in CA, the ONLY requirement for a police vehicle is that they have a steady burning forward facing red light. None of the other fancy stuff is required.   Thats why in CA you will always see a police car with all the bells and whistles, strobes and all, and they will have, somewhere, a solid red steady light.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: stillamarine on March 10, 2008, 02:32:49 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 10, 2008, 01:54:20 AM
I dont think Ive ever seen an EMS vehicle with blue.  In CA, cops have red and blue, and EMS have red and white, green, yellow.

In fact, in CA, the ONLY requirement for a police vehicle is that they have a steady burning forward facing red light. None of the other fancy stuff is required.   Thats why in CA you will always see a police car with all the bells and whistles, strobes and all, and they will have, somewhere, a solid red steady light.

It is a major pain in the tush. Every state has it's own laws on lights. For example:

I work for a major contract security company. Florida recently passed law changing the light bar color from all amber or clear only to amber/green with neither color being more than 50% of the light bar. Not too bad, this law came because after the hurricanes with all the security organizations out LE couldn't differentiate between security and construction. I like this change.

Unfortunately, I live almost right on the AL border. My office oversees all of the SW AL accounts. There are many. My vehicles assigned to the office, here in FL that my area supervisors and office personnel sometimes take to Mobile for business had lightbars on them. Once the phase out time is done they will be required to be amber/green to work in FL. Yet in AL they are only allowed to be amber. I got to spend a day taking light bars off vehicles and plugging holes. :(
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: mynetdude on March 10, 2008, 02:35:10 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 10, 2008, 01:54:20 AM
I dont think Ive ever seen an EMS vehicle with blue.  In CA, cops have red and blue, and EMS have red and white, green, yellow.

In fact, in CA, the ONLY requirement for a police vehicle is that they have a steady burning forward facing red light. None of the other fancy stuff is required.   Thats why in CA you will always see a police car with all the bells and whistles, strobes and all, and they will have, somewhere, a solid red steady light.

Blue doesn't seem to be popular with EMS, there is only one or two fire trucks in my area that have it though which is kind of strange (only on the front, not on the back).

Are you talking about the steady red that they used to use in the 70-80s?

I haven't seen green on EMS, but I've seen other non police Law Enforcement use green bars though never seen them lit up, just on their trucks.

I've lived in California for 12 years, never noticed the steady red on the front for police cars, and I remember the last I've seen CHP with lights on he didn't have a steady red and he wasn't in his normal CHP brown uniform because he wsa doing DOT stuff.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: mynetdude on March 10, 2008, 02:37:32 AM
Quote from: stillamarine on March 10, 2008, 02:32:49 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 10, 2008, 01:54:20 AM
I dont think Ive ever seen an EMS vehicle with blue.  In CA, cops have red and blue, and EMS have red and white, green, yellow.

In fact, in CA, the ONLY requirement for a police vehicle is that they have a steady burning forward facing red light. None of the other fancy stuff is required.   Thats why in CA you will always see a police car with all the bells and whistles, strobes and all, and they will have, somewhere, a solid red steady light.

It is a major pain in the tush. Every state has it's own laws on lights. For example:

I work for a major contract security company. Florida recently passed law changing the light bar color from all amber or clear only to amber/green with neither color being more than 50% of the light bar. Not too bad, this law came because after the hurricanes with all the security organizations out LE couldn't differentiate between security and construction. I like this change.

Unfortunately, I live almost right on the AL border. My office oversees all of the SW AL accounts. There are many. My vehicles assigned to the office, here in FL that my area supervisors and office personnel sometimes take to Mobile for business had lightbars on them. Once the phase out time is done they will be required to be amber/green to work in FL. Yet in AL they are only allowed to be amber. I got to spend a day taking light bars off vehicles and plugging holes. :(

I don't know if this is possible but can't they make a clear casing/plastic and the lights be a different color by using a selector switch depending where you are and still get the same effect of 50/50 amber/green vs 100% amber? That way you can use the same bar regardless.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: jb512 on March 10, 2008, 03:00:58 AM
EMS here uses a single green light on whatever vehicle is where their command is set up.  Pretty good idea for large scenes.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: sardak on March 10, 2008, 05:26:27 AM
^^Yes it is.  Per Colorado statute  [Green flashing] "lights may only be used at the single designated command post at any emergency location or incident and only when such command post is stationary. The single command post shall be designated by the on-scene incident commander... Any other use of a green light by a vehicle shall constitute a violation of this section."

Mike
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: SJFedor on March 10, 2008, 05:55:28 AM
TN is wierd.

Back where I'm from (PA), Red/Blue combo was the police, red was fire/EMS, and solid blue was *gasp* volunteers. Blue is a courtesy color in PA.

But down here, all the cops (except ONE town that I've found) are solid blue, fire/EMS is red (EMS has some wierd requrements, like the center of the lightbar has to be white or have a white strobe underneath it, they have to have at least 2 red flashing lights to the rear w/ an amber in the center, and all the ambulances have to be the same color, no creative paintjobs, white with an orange stripe running lenghtwise down the sides) Volly responders also get red if authorized by their station chief and the county.

Ironically, digging through TCA (Tennessee Code Annotated), CAP is included in the list of people permitted to utilize red lightbars. Though I'm sure National would crap a chicken if we did it....
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: jimmydeanno on March 10, 2008, 12:34:37 PM
We've got:

1) Blue - Blue/white = Police
2) Red - Red/white = Fire & Ambulance
3) Yellow - Construction/Plows/Civilian Plows/CAP, etc.

That's it, haven't ever seen green.  I've never seen red on a police cruiser either, I think I wouldn't know what to do because the fire officer's cars also have red lights so I can tell if it is a fireman or a police officer.
Title: Re: Incident w/Police
Post by: MIKE on March 10, 2008, 05:31:40 PM
From staring at cops to what color flashing lights.