CAP Talk

General Discussion => The Lobby => Topic started by: Eclipse on June 30, 2022, 08:10:58 pm

Title: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Eclipse on June 30, 2022, 08:10:58 pm
(https://content.presspage.com/uploads/1913/1920_logobrandstory-2.png)

https://www.cap.news/civil-air-patrol-launches-bold-new-logo/

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRJNbr9Y/sigh.png)

Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: etodd on June 30, 2022, 08:43:13 pm
"It's hard to recruit and retain because we train for missions that rarely, if ever, come!"

We'll we don't have a good answer for that, so we spent lots of time, money, and energy creating a new logo! See if that will get everyone excited!
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Major Rob on June 30, 2022, 08:47:01 pm
Oh. My. Lord. Is that Wonder Woman's headband logo?

I can't imagine anything less recognizable as being related to CAP. What on Earth were they thinking?

On the other hand...

Yeah, no OCP for you. It makes you look too much like the real Air Force. Here's a nice kinda looks like an Air Force logo for you. Now, go home!
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: RangerConlin on June 30, 2022, 08:58:46 pm
As a member for over 16 years, I don't immediately associate that with CAP.  If experienced members can't, how do we expect the public to associate it with us? All the effort over the past few years on single solitary brand recognition over the past few years - poof.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Private Investigator on June 30, 2022, 09:00:57 pm
Van Halen has additional concerts added for the 4th of July weekend.

My bad, new CAP logo. How fun ...
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Pace on June 30, 2022, 09:46:46 pm
Looks like an upside down star trek communicator badge. I like it!
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: LSThiker on June 30, 2022, 10:00:13 pm
All I can say is that someone really must have liked Disney Cars.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Holding Pattern on June 30, 2022, 10:22:06 pm
Great, we're the upside-down space cadets.

Quote from: Pace on June 30, 2022, 09:46:46 pmLooks like an upside down star trek communicator badge. I like it!
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Holding Pattern on June 30, 2022, 10:38:11 pm
I made a poll, I want to see if CAPTALK's membership vs the focus group surveys in the powerpoint have any alignment at all.

I can already tell you, the FB polling does NOT have any alignment with it.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=25980.0
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: cobra6987 on July 01, 2022, 01:12:00 am
Personally, the more I look at it while it's implemented with something other than just hanging by itself I don't mind it. I do like that they made the effort to make it justified rather than the white space. The sttripes make us look a bit on the chubby side, but seeing a lot of our senior members, I guess it kind of grasps our look haha. Would I have voted for this in the line up of concepts, meh, IDK, depends what the oter ideas were. Guess I'm just kind of neutral on it.

I did play around a little bit and viewed it on products on VistaPrint. It looks pretty good on marketing items.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: A.Member on July 01, 2022, 03:19:00 am
It's actually pretty terrible on a lot levels. National needs to pump the brakes on this roll out.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: ctrossen on July 01, 2022, 03:37:00 am
If you want to really go down a rabbit hole of specious reasoning, check out the 42 slides justifying this... fantastic creation.

https://presspage-production-content.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/1913/launchdeckv27cap.news.pptx?10000 (https://presspage-production-content.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/1913/launchdeckv27cap.news.pptx?10000)


Or, (and I can't take credit for this--thanks to the former cadet security forces SMSgt that happened to help us out at our encampment the last couple of days) just to put it into a different perspective: upside down SPACE FORCE!

(https://veteran.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Space-Force-E4-Specialist-Four-260x300.png)
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Brit_in_CAP on July 01, 2022, 12:33:50 pm
Well, glad I am no longer a CAP member in any form whatsoever.  I would not like to try and explain this to anyone.

I did see someone out this out via one of the official social media channels; they were clearly excited but, like most re-brandings I have lived through in my working life, it failed to raise my pulse rate.  Marketing and leadership get excited about these things, rarely do the majority of the organization.

I dread to think how much opportunity cost and real cost were expended to get to this place.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Shuman 14 on July 01, 2022, 02:06:04 pm
for nearly 81 years, the Civil Air Patrol had a brand identity that most people would instantly recognize, much like the Coke logo.

Imagine if Coke changed their logo to a giant "C" in Klingon script.

The words "Iconic" and "Historic" must mean nothing to some people.

Balderdash is the kindest word I can think of for this new logo.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on July 01, 2022, 02:33:00 pm
Somewhere they say that logos should be simple. Yet they have about 10 explanations for the logo. Simple?

NO!   It reeks!
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on July 01, 2022, 02:36:31 pm
The more I see that logo, the more I think of the Navy Tomcat F-14 airplane with wings folded for storage in an aircraft carrier...

I find NO CONNECTION with the airplanes we fly...
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: tmgoethe on July 01, 2022, 02:46:00 pm
Quote from: RangerConlin on June 30, 2022, 08:58:46 pmAs a member for over 16 years, I don't immediately associate that with CAP.  If experienced members can't, how do we expect the public to associate it with us? All the effort over the past few years on single solitary brand recognition over the past few years - poof.

My dad flew for CAP in WWII and we will no longer have an emblem he would recognize. Sigh.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: GroundHawg on July 01, 2022, 04:16:11 pm
Quote from: Shuman 14 on July 01, 2022, 02:06:04 pmThe words "Iconic" and "Historic" must mean nothing to some people.




Much like the complete and total destruction of the wing and squadron patch and any associated heraldry

They simply dont care
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Jester on July 01, 2022, 05:05:46 pm
Good grief CAP members are fragile. 
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Brit_in_CAP on July 01, 2022, 05:57:23 pm
Quote from: Jester on July 01, 2022, 05:05:46 pmGood grief CAP members are fragile. 
Not sure I could agree with that.  The OP sought opinions, and got some, including yours and mine.

I'd suggest that CAPTalk members have opinions, and aren't shy about offering them..!

Personally, I think the majority of CAP will shrug, move on, and do their best to deal with something that is, to them, at best an annoyance and at worst another annoying waste of time and resources.

YMMV.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: JohhnyD on July 01, 2022, 06:40:57 pm
NHQ again shows that they decide, and we comply. So much for "the squadron is the heart of the organization."

This is clearly the result of marketing volunteers trying to overthink a non-existent problem. Our prior logo was classy, well known, and not in any way shape, or form offensive or abstract. It represented us well. The new logo has to be explained and does not speak for itself.

On a 1 - 100 scale, I give this a score of 23.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: THRAWN on July 01, 2022, 07:00:52 pm
Quote from: tmgoethe on July 01, 2022, 02:46:00 pm
Quote from: RangerConlin on June 30, 2022, 08:58:46 pmAs a member for over 16 years, I don't immediately associate that with CAP.  If experienced members can't, how do we expect the public to associate it with us? All the effort over the past few years on single solitary brand recognition over the past few years - poof.

My dad flew for CAP in WWII and we will no longer have an emblem he would recognize. Sigh.

This alone is a reason to stick with the legacy logo. Apologies to your family.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Shuman 14 on July 01, 2022, 07:01:34 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on July 01, 2022, 06:40:57 pmOn a 1 - 100 scale, I give this a score of 23.

Must be your generous nature.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: cobra6987 on July 01, 2022, 08:36:06 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on July 01, 2022, 06:40:57 pmOur prior logo was classy, well known, and not in any way shape, or form offensive or abstract. It represented us well. The new logo has to be explained and does not speak for itself.

See, I don't understand this argument. In the 20+ years and I've been I've never met anyone outside of connection with CAP that can tell you what the prop logo represents. Even most Air Force poeple I served with had no clue.

Side note, didn't I see a post not too long ago saying we needed to move on from clinging to WWII history? Something about why are we talking about how we sunk a sub 80 years ago, but don't talk about anything current IIRC. I don't remember if it was here or on reddit, but I generally agree with the sentiment. Not saying to drop anything WWII related, but focus on what we're doing now. In that kind of sense, I thnk the logo may help with that shift. They did say it was a cadet focus group, so they're looking at the new generation (not that I necessiarlly agree that the newest people should have decided for the whole.)
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: RiverAux on July 01, 2022, 09:27:45 pm
I don't know of any evidence that the old CAP logo was known at all outside CAP, much less well-known.  Obviously, we knew what it was and probably what it meant, but that was probably about as far as it went. 

Now, does that mean that I agree that a change be made?  No, not really. 
Is it going to help the organization in any way?  No, not really. 
Is it going to hurt the organization in any way?  No, not really. 
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: JohhnyD on July 02, 2022, 01:07:07 am
Quote from: Shuman 14 on July 01, 2022, 07:01:34 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on July 01, 2022, 06:40:57 pmOn a 1 - 100 scale, I give this a score of 23.

Must be your generous nature.
I started with single digits, so yes.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: tmgoethe on July 02, 2022, 12:11:03 pm
One of the strengths of the Marine Corps is its reverence for its own history, recognizing that we stand on the shoulders of those before us. The Eagle, Anchor and Globe has been in use for over 200 years with very minor changes.

Being able to explain the logo is nice, but recognizing it is the most important. I would bet the Marine insignia is recognized, though most might not know the Eagle is for the United States, the Globe is for worldwide service and the Anchor represents the fact the Marines are a naval service.

I will bet that while quite a few people recognize the old CAP insignia, it will take many years to get as many to recognize the new one meaning we have tossed years of "brand" recognition down the tubes.

Heraldry matters. Did the CAP heraldry people have much to do with this?
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: NovemberWhiskey on July 02, 2022, 12:33:26 pm
Quote from: tmgoethe on July 02, 2022, 12:11:03 pmHeraldry matters. Did the CAP heraldry people have much to do with this?

The CAP emblem and seal, which are the symbolic elements that contains heraldic elements, are unchanged and continue to have the tri-blade prop.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: NovemberWhiskey on July 02, 2022, 12:41:18 pm
Quote from: tmgoethe on July 02, 2022, 12:11:03 pmit will take many years to get as many to recognize the new one meaning we have tossed years of "brand" recognition down the tubes.

Please go ahead and show me one place where the "CAP symbol" is currently being used on a website etc.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: tmgoethe on July 02, 2022, 03:24:00 pm
Please go ahead and show me one place where the "CAP symbol" is currently being used on a website etc.
[/quote]

I don't think you can as the new one was populated across all CAP websites. I know the Triblade will be retained in some insignia, but I always liked it everywhere.

As to the other point, I would consider what we use as our symbol or insignia to be part of heraldry.

Oh well, for me it doesn't matter as other commitments are making me think my time in CAP is drawing nigh. This didn't help. We were a 3 generation CAP family. My son is about to join the Marines, so he won't have time for it. That said, CAP was a big deal in my life, largely because of my dad and then because of my son.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Eclipse on July 02, 2022, 04:41:12 pm
Quote from: tmgoethe on July 02, 2022, 03:24:00 pmI don't think you can as the new one was populated across all CAP websites.

Which is kind of hilarious when you consider that sites like this:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/members/cap-national-hq/uniform-information

...have not been updated after somewhere between 5-10 years depending on the change(s), but
this was changed seemingly overnight, not to mention the myriad regs and other documents
that continue to grow geometrically via ICL instead of being properly updated.

One can only wonder if this would have happened at all if the first-year MARCOM student who
drew this had only been allowed to borrow their family's Oldsmobile Silhouette for the
Senior trip to the beach, but alas, the stone was cast.

More humorous are the scores of people on the web that took 15 minutes and made
this into something that actually has connectivity to the organization and its history.

It should also be pointed out that NHQ continues to use a non-standard website to
host these images while at the same time portending to have a "required" host for
all other CAP websites.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: flyboy53 on July 03, 2022, 04:57:50 pm
OK. So let's see if it sticks. For the record, I wasn't fond of the new AF Logo when it came out. I was a purist and spent most of my career associated with the "Hap Arnold" emblem even on some of my uniform items. But it took about two decades of constant exposure through the various commercial applications such as lapel pins, hats, shirts, etc., to sway me. I'm still a purist, though, and appreciate the legacy of the first emblem.

Forty-five years with this organization and the one constant has always been a new uniform or insignia change that gets dreamed up as a means of unifying people, and the end result is always some degree of non-compliance. Maybe this ranks right up there with the stock car thing. Maybe it will click in. As for me if I wear any form of CAP emblem with my civilian clothes, it will always be the WW II lapel pins that I have worn off and on since I was a cadet.

I would hope that the new logo does those things that they hope it will foster in terms of the membership. However, I think not.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: biomed441 on July 03, 2022, 10:47:31 pm
My personal opinions about the design aside (I don't not like it, but I would change some things).. what is the practical application of it? 

Are we putting this on our vehicles? Aircraft?  All new badges for the uniform that want to utilize a CAP logo?  (Are we re designing all the current badges now since 99% of them utilize the triangle and prop or variations of)

Will we be replacing patches and incorporating this logo into other uniform items? Will we have a new "tacticool" polo with this logo instead of the CAP seal?  (Yes I know this logo doesn't replace the seal, but if you look at the AF, Theyre using their logo on everything so precedence suggests we may do the same?

Just thinking out loud.  We didn't need a new logo... but now we have one... so whats next?
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: etodd on July 03, 2022, 10:54:25 pm
Quote from: biomed441 on July 03, 2022, 10:47:31 pmWe didn't need a new logo... but now we have one... so whats next?

New directions and new missions hopefully.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: PHall on July 04, 2022, 12:20:21 am
Quote from: etodd on July 03, 2022, 10:54:25 pm
Quote from: biomed441 on July 03, 2022, 10:47:31 pmWe didn't need a new logo... but now we have one... so whats next?

New directions and new missions hopefully.

How about we learn to do our existing missions better?
We say we want to do disaster relief but we have zero skills in the one job that is always needed. Shelter Management. Mostly because we don't work and play well with other organizations. i.e. American Red Cross.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: etodd on July 04, 2022, 03:08:46 am
Quote from: PHall on July 04, 2022, 12:20:21 amHow about we learn to do our existing missions better?
We say we want to do disaster relief but we have zero skills in the one job that is always needed. Shelter Management. Mostly because we don't work and play well with other organizations. i.e. American Red Cross.


I agree. With the cell phone team taking virtually all of SAR away, DR is the way to go. But we need a completely new marketing strategy. Get rid of most all marketing that shows airplane and ground search teams, and put the emphasis on DR. As you say, shelter management, and showing videos of Cadets handing out water bottles.

Then ... we can start recruiting people that are interested in those things.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Holding Pattern on July 04, 2022, 03:16:00 am
Quote from: etodd on July 04, 2022, 03:08:46 am
Quote from: PHall on July 04, 2022, 12:20:21 amHow about we learn to do our existing missions better?
We say we want to do disaster relief but we have zero skills in the one job that is always needed. Shelter Management. Mostly because we don't work and play well with other organizations. i.e. American Red Cross.


I agree. With the cell phone team taking virtually all of SAR away, DR is the way to go. But we need a completely new marketing strategy. Get rid of most all marketing that shows airplane and ground search teams, and put the emphasis on DR. As you say, shelter management, and showing videos of Cadets handing out water bottles.

Then ... we can start recruiting people that are interested in those things.

There are plenty of ground team opportunities the moment CAP learns to play nice with more local agencies.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: etodd on July 04, 2022, 03:44:41 am
Quote from: Holding Pattern on July 04, 2022, 03:16:00 am
Quote from: etodd on July 04, 2022, 03:08:46 am
Quote from: PHall on July 04, 2022, 12:20:21 amHow about we learn to do our existing missions better?
We say we want to do disaster relief but we have zero skills in the one job that is always needed. Shelter Management. Mostly because we don't work and play well with other organizations. i.e. American Red Cross.


I agree. With the cell phone team taking virtually all of SAR away, DR is the way to go. But we need a completely new marketing strategy. Get rid of most all marketing that shows airplane and ground search teams, and put the emphasis on DR. As you say, shelter management, and showing videos of Cadets handing out water bottles.

Then ... we can start recruiting people that are interested in those things.

There are plenty of ground team opportunities the moment CAP learns to play nice with more local agencies.

Varies widely by Wing. First responders in my area are well equipped and staffed and don't need help. YMMV
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: flyboy53 on July 04, 2022, 10:35:34 am
Expect to see the new logo on lapel pins, hats, shirts, jackets, etc. That's the real test -- if people will buy it from Vanguard.

I get the "V" thing as being volunteers, but the difference between the Air Force logo and this new CAP thing is that one is a modernized version of a legacy emblem. The CAP version with the big "V" is certainly a departure from the legacy emblem, but it's a "V," not a three bladed prop. I think there's a better way to illustrate volunteerism.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: etodd on July 04, 2022, 02:52:08 pm
To the vast majority of people we will ever market to, the logo is meaningless, without the words Civil Air Patrol attached to it in the ad, shirt, brochure or whatever. Its extremely rare that a logo becomes well known without wording, like the swoosh or the golden arches or the Pepsi logo. CAP will never be that well known. The inside meaning of the logo will only be known by folks inside of CAP. Trying to describe the meaning of its various parts to outsiders will just have people's eyes glazing over. They don't care. So bottom line, any time you use the logo for anything meant for the public, be sure the org name is in big prominent text. Thats all the outsiders will notice.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Eclipse on July 04, 2022, 03:10:05 pm
The DR ship sailed when CAP didn't properly engage after 911, 20+ years ago,
and then got a second chance after Katrina and showed how poorly prepared it
was for any incidents of real scale.

Since then its continued to struggle like a turtle on its back in the sun, while counting
"bare minimum performance" as "wild success".

One only needs to look at the Covid situation to understand that.
The organization lost about 25-30% of its membership, the vast, vast majority of
those left spent two years benched, and a handful, literally a handful, of members who
actual did something, anything, are lumped together with the benched in regards to
decorations and accolades.

There are plenty of other much more coherent agencies and organizations, both NFP and FP
with doctrine and LOTS of funding that have no interest in CAP's uniforms or extra baggage
who "own" the DR space, and have vested interests in not inviting others to the party, except for the occasional press photo.

And no one is going to join CAP to sit and keep a list at a shelter or hand out water.

CAP does not need, nor has it ever had, a "brand". It needs a mission and purpose.

Unless of course its new mission is doing the Floss on TikTok.
(Which for CAP would be about right, since that craze died 4 years ago)
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: etodd on July 04, 2022, 04:44:24 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on July 04, 2022, 03:10:05 pmThe DR ship sailed when CAP didn't properly engage after 911, 20+ years ago,
and then got a second chance after Katrina and showed how poorly prepared it
was for any incidents of real scale.

I'm not sure we ever could. When an ELT goes off, often we have to contact several scquadrons with planes until we can find a full crew that is able to "jump and run". Often its a MP from one Squadron and a MO from another. Maybe even a MS from a third. So travel time for each enters into our response time.

What percentage of the membership, when the hurricane strikes are able to drop everything and go help for a week? Its small.  Disasters always catch most people when work and family matters get in the way.

Full time first responders and agencies are 24/7.  CAP members can only help out when its convenient.  Its the nature of volunteers.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 04, 2022, 03:10:05 pmAnd no one is going to join CAP to sit and keep a list at a shelter or hand out water.



But thats where we are headed. All the emphasis will be Cadets at some point. And Seniors who want to teach and lead them.

"When disaster strikes, we have Cadets that can hand out food and water, call us."

"Have a big event? We have Cadets that can direct and park cars, call us."

Boy and Girl Scouts ... with a different name.

If we can get enough CFIs willing to volunteer, maybe we can justify keeping the airplanes to teach Cadets to their Private Pilot. Otherwise ...
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: flyboy53 on July 05, 2022, 12:39:24 am
Quote from: etodd on July 04, 2022, 04:44:24 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on July 04, 2022, 03:10:05 pmThe DR ship sailed when CAP didn't properly engage after 911, 20+ years ago,
and then got a second chance after Katrina and showed how poorly prepared it
was for any incidents of real scale.

I'm not sure we ever could. When an ELT goes off, often we have to contact several scquadrons with planes until we can find a full crew that is able to "jump and run". Often its a MP from one Squadron and a MO from another. Maybe even a MS from a third. So travel time for each enters into our response time.

What percentage of the membership, when the hurricane strikes are able to drop everything and go help for a week? Its small.  Disasters always catch most people when work and family matters get in the way.

Full time first responders and agencies are 24/7.  CAP members can only help out when its convenient.  Its the nature of volunteers.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 04, 2022, 03:10:05 pmAnd no one is going to join CAP to sit and keep a list at a shelter or hand out water.



But thats where we are headed. All the emphasis will be Cadets at some point. And Seniors who want to teach and lead them.

"When disaster strikes, we have Cadets that can hand out food and water, call us."

"Have a big event? We have Cadets that can direct and park cars, call us."

Boy and Girl Scouts ... with a different name.

If we can get enough CFIs willing to volunteer, maybe we can justify keeping the airplanes to teach Cadets to their Private Pilot. Otherwise ...

Not far from the truth. Years ago, if you had been given an Air Force-originated fact sheet about the CAP, the curious thing was that the missions were reversed with the cadet program being Number #1. In the end, the CAP Cadet Program is one of the Air Force's accession sources and so much of what we do now, like the flight orientations and flight training, is geared toward that.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: RiverAux on July 05, 2022, 11:11:13 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on July 04, 2022, 03:10:05 pmthen got a second chance after Katrina and showed how poorly prepared it was for any incidents of real scale
As one who participated for about 3 weeks, I don't see Katrina having been a demonstration of any such lack of preparedness.  Actually, this was the event that really seemed to have launched the idea of sending Wing members out-of-state for large scale DR missions.  Yeah, there were some issues, but I was generally happy with it. 

That being said, long-time readers know that I am also not a fan of the long-standing lack of a DR doctrine in CAP. 
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: NovemberWhiskey on July 05, 2022, 11:28:30 pm
The (unofficial?) AAR from CAP x Katrina: https://capblog.typepad.com/capblog/files/Katrina.AAR.pdf

It's an eye-opener for sure.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: flyboy53 on July 08, 2022, 03:59:11 pm
Ultimately, this discourse about the new logo is a moot point. And this service organization isn't a democracy where everyone has a vote to steer outcomes. We have a chain of command and there are individuals in the higher echelons that have a better understanding of the challenges and opportunities.

I choose to remain positive. As I said previously, it took me about two decades to become accepting of the new Air Force logo. While, I prefer the CAP insignia I mentioned previously, I do recognize that change is constant and if we are to survive as an organization, we have to be prepared for change in order for CAP to evolve into whatever platform that best meets the needs of the Air Force or our other customers. A new logo does that.

At some point, I will probably buy the emblem on something. The polls and other social platforms don't always reflect the true feelings of the membership.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: TheSkyHornet on July 08, 2022, 07:33:28 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on July 04, 2022, 03:10:05 pmOne only needs to look at the Covid situation to understand that.
The organization lost about 25-30% of its membership, the vast, vast majority of
those left spent two years benched, and a handful, literally a handful, of members who
actual did something, anything, are lumped together with the benched in regards to
decorations and accolades.


I think this point is exceptionally true.

I'm not sure what the actual percentage of regular participation was in weekly cadet unit meetings, but I knew of squadrons that went for months without meeting because they couldn't figure out how to adapt to a virtual format; and many which refused to adapt. Yet, they still received Crisis Service Ribbons.

I know of squadrons that couldn't meet because their unit leaders were in the "vulnerable" category when units went to Phase 1 and 2. Yet, they still received Crisis Service Ribbons.

It was a blanket stamp across eServices because of the labor intensive approach to vet how many members actually participated to X-% over the "crisis period," and to provide some form of morale boost to individuals who were already not participating, and the additional ribbon/award wasn't enough anyway to hold onto them anyhow. Most people don't even remember the Crisis Service Ribbon, and don't realize that it exists today.

How many units presented the ribbon to their members when it first came out?
How many units presented it after your last batch of new recruits came in? ...Most of you forgot about it, didn't you?

It has very little meaning to most individuals beyond some email someone received paragraphing some exemplar performance that doesn't even relate to those individuals. They were mostly students showing up to a virtual meeting; if they showed up at all.

I'm really glad the senior units that were too vulnerable to perform any CAP missions in masks but held their meetings at the local bar were able to get theirs.


Quote from: flyboy53 on July 08, 2022, 03:59:11 pmUltimately, this discourse about the new logo is a moot point. And this service organization isn't a democracy where everyone has a vote to steer outcomes. We have a chain of command and there are individuals in the higher echelons that have a better understanding of the challenges and opportunities.

I choose to remain positive. As I said previously, it took me about two decades to become accepting of the new Air Force logo. While, I prefer the CAP insignia I mentioned previously, I do recognize that change is constant and if we are to survive as an organization, we have to be prepared for change in order for CAP to evolve into whatever platform that best meets the needs of the Air Force or our other customers. A new logo does that.

First off, no, a new logo doesn't do that. A new logo doesn't change our mission or evolve with our mission. Frankly, maybe I'm left out of the loop, but has our mission changed? I don't remember hearing about that one.

Don't put every investment that the "people at the top" know what's best for the "people at the bottom." A strategic marketing plan often has no connection to grassroots educational programs at the lower echelon--of any organization for that matter. That's kind of how grassroots operations work.

Maybe this is a cart before the horse thing? No idea at this point.

Down here at the ground level, there's really not much of a strategic vision of where we're headed. We still have to come up with our own schedules, find our own meeting locations, come up with the funds to pay for our facilities and materials, do all of the recruiting, and do our own public affairs work.

The reality is that the majority of CAP is "left on its own" beyond some integrated IT systems and PDFs outlining compliance elements and best practices.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: flyboy53 on July 10, 2022, 01:40:19 pm
People join organizations like the CAP for the same reason(s) they chose to serve their country, serve in the military or serve any one of a number of various organizations. They are seeking a way to achieve a goal or skill, seek some level of recognition through the affiliation with that organization, or some sense of just belonging to something greater than themselves. That is, in part, why CAP has such a broad spectrum of members.

Statistics, such as previously quoted that blamed the pandemic on the reason why people left CAP, may have a root significance but, in reality, can be manipulated to whatever end the presenter is trying to argue. It may not address the true core organizational culture or personal issues that initiated the departure. After all, how many of those members left for personal reasons, for a toxic command or membership culture, or simply because they found a different venue like the Coast Guard Auxiliary or a volunteer ambulance or fire department, or Red Cross to fulfill their needs.

In the end, we eat our own, and only sound the alarms when it becomes a troubling retention statistic, or you can't find a trained member to assume the reins of command or some leadership position. We do that in this forum when we use acronyms like WIWAC or WIWASM and we relegate retired members to non-status because they are no longer dues paying, in direct contradiction of CAPR-39-1, Chapter 4. The mistake with retired members is completely severing them from the organization, instead of allowing them to continue being dues paying members in a different status. Then, when a retired member returns, his or her role is always diminished because people are genuinely afraid that he or she may be of value, and the core issue that may have caused the departure, unless personal, is never addressed. 

You want to embrace the retention issue, then change the organizational culture and lend value to all members. The issue here is no different than a social or veteran's group. All organizations are suffering the same fate these days and I know that as a past county commander of a veterans organization, and a board member of a not-for-profit.

Certainly, about 10 percent of the membership may remain active, but there is a reason why that individual has chosen to watch from the sidelines. There are also reasons why organizational cultures change or evolve.

Certainly, a new logo has nothing to do with the CAP mission. It is, however, a sign of a shift in our organization -- whether positive or negative. Like it or not, it is embraced by the membership, or individuals have the right to choose that logo they best identify with.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: TheSkyHornet on July 11, 2022, 07:16:26 pm
Quote from: flyboy53 on July 10, 2022, 01:40:19 pmStatistics, such as previously quoted that blamed the pandemic on the reason why people left CAP, may have a root significance but, in reality, can be manipulated to whatever end the presenter is trying to argue. It may not address the true core organizational culture or personal issues that initiated the departure. After all, how many of those members left for personal reasons, for a toxic command or membership culture, or simply because they found a different venue like the Coast Guard Auxiliary or a volunteer ambulance or fire department, or Red Cross to fulfill their needs.

That information and data would need to be captured through an exit interview/survey to best provide any actual metrics regarding member attrition; and the majority of members leave CAP by not returning rather than expressing what their issue actually is.

Now why they choose not to express that information may vary depending on if they feel ostracized by the unit, are afraid to confront the unit out of some feared adversarial response, any level of embarrassment, or perhaps maybe a total disregard and lack of courtesy. There are really countless reasons at this point.


QuoteThe mistake with retired members is completely severing them from the organization, instead of allowing them to continue being dues paying members in a different status. Then, when a retired member returns, his or her role is always diminished because people are genuinely afraid that he or she may be of value, and the core issue that may have caused the departure, unless personal, is never addressed. 

Let's also add in that "retirement" from CAP includes very little actual return to the individual. It's not like they get a pension.

Furthermore, retirement also induces a separation of experience and currency in qualification/training. I have never seen a retiree in any professional development course that I have been in; thus, we can conclude that they are not up-to-date or current on modernized information.

While that individual may have loads of experience and practical skills to offer, it may conflict with current regulations and protocols. I'll point to examples on Cadet Protection and the modernization of the Cadet Programs curriculum. This person simply might not know anything about current cadet promotion processes, and they may be from an earlier era where certain cadet activities/conduct were permissible that, today, or prohibited or widely discouraged.

I do believe that everyone has value to offer. But age and experience are not enough on their own to be able to provide a functional benefit. And if a person wishes to provide that continued functionality, they should remain an active member and not a retiree.

QuoteYou want to embrace the retention issue, then change the organizational culture and lend value to all members. The issue here is no different than a social or veteran's group.

I think we're placing some great generalizations about very complex organizational issues, to include which part of the CAP member corps is feeling about a particular topic.

The modern triumphs and tribulations of the Cadet Program need to be faceted around the fact that, while there is a major social aspect to the program, it is not a social club nor is it simply a community service outreach program. The Cadet Program is a youth leadership development and training program, and nothing less than that. It's not a club or a hobby. Cadets are students in the organization, and while exciting opportunities may exist to balance out the "work" part of it--and provide additional educational experiences--, all of the extracurriculars are in addition to the core of the program, which is leadership education of an aerospace theme.

How that education is being delivered, and the often lack of delivery, is likely a major contributor to retention issues beyond people becoming disinterested. There were many units during the pandemic (which is still apparently not over) that failed to deliver any worthwhile educational experience or continued to ensure the advancement/progression of their cadets. That's a failure on this organization to fulfil that mission and to not correct that shortcoming...whether that's a National matter, Wing, squadron, what have you.

The subject here needs to not be the direction of blame. There needs to be a clear vision of what this organization intends to pursue in the coming future, and that vision must be expressed throughout the organizational hierarchy; and it must come it clear direction and objectives for the lower echelons to carry out in order to fulfil this mission at the widest possible level of accomplishment and impact to the member corps.

QuoteCertainly, about 10 percent of the membership may remain active, but there is a reason why that individual has chosen to watch from the sidelines.

Let's also take note that the majority of inactive individuals don't "watch from the sidelines;" they disappear altogether. Maybe they return now and then for a brief period. Maybe they return for years or decades and give back to an organization that they once strayed away from.

But we should caution an impression that people who are inactive are somewhat checking in and still paying attention. I would challenge that with the argument that most of those individuals have absolutely no attention to CAP, nor do they wish to.

Not only do we, as an organization, need to understand why people lose interest and try to curb that; we also must learn to let go and move on with the absence of some of those individuals. We need to be immensely cautious about trying to redevelop the organization in order to retain individuals who may still otherwise walk away later than today. -- There is a huge difference between someone who loses interest because CAP isn't providing what they want and someone who has no attention to CAP at all, for whatever reason came up in their life.
Title: Re: CAP Launches bold new something something...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 08, 2022, 07:37:25 pm
At the risk of members roasting me for posting on this thread a few weeks after the last post, I have to add something here.

I watched again Star Trek III, the Search for Spok. The headbands the priestesses wear reminded me of this new CAP symbol. The difference is the headbands on Star Trek III are translucent, and the CAP sign is in blue.