CAP Talk

General Discussion => Membership => Topic started by: CAPCom on May 15, 2022, 12:26:37 pm

Title: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: CAPCom on May 15, 2022, 12:26:37 pm
Per regulations, is there an actual definition for "member in good standing"?  I've yet to find it (but admittedly might be looking in the wrong places).  Thanks in advance for your responses.
Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: Eclipse on May 15, 2022, 04:12:15 pm
I've never seen one, but at a minimum it would mean a current membership (not expired), and no
pending disciplinary actions.
Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: SarDragon on May 15, 2022, 10:18:44 pm
That's my thought.

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Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: jeders on May 16, 2022, 01:00:40 am
I seem to recall reading an actual definition at one point in time, but that was numerous reg revisions ago. In essence it was exactly what Eclipse said, dues up to date and no pending disciplinary action.
Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: NovemberWhiskey on May 17, 2022, 08:13:16 pm
There is CAPR 35-1 for the definition of "active status", but I don't think I've ever seen "in good standing" formally defined.
Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: CAPCom on May 18, 2022, 02:16:56 pm
I'm now wondering if the vagueness of the phrase "in good standing" is intentional.  Meant to be left up to interpretation?
Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: SarDragon on May 18, 2022, 08:24:41 pm
Quote from: CAPCom on May 18, 2022, 02:16:56 pmI'm now wondering if the vagueness of the phrase "in good standing" is intentional.  Meant to be left up to interpretation?

Sadly, "interpretation" is something that most CAP members are poorly skilled at. You can ask a new member, a 25 year member, and an olde fart like me to read a reg and give an opinion, and you will get three answers, some similar, and some widely different.

Regs shouldn't need "interpretation". They need to be direct and concise. It ain't easy.
Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: jeders on May 18, 2022, 09:46:44 pm
Quote from: CAPCom on May 18, 2022, 02:16:56 pmI'm now wondering if the vagueness of the phrase "in good standing" is intentional.  Meant to be left up to interpretation?

It's not actually very vague in my opinion. "In good standing" seems to be a fairly common term in most organizations and generally just means that you're not in bad standing (i.e. no disciplinary actions being taken against you, all of your obligations are up to date, etc). Of course our resident legal expert Ned can probably give a more insightful answer, but this one really shouldn't be too hard to figure out.
Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: NovemberWhiskey on May 18, 2022, 11:05:30 pm
Quote from: jeders on May 18, 2022, 09:46:44 pmi.e. no disciplinary actions being taken against you

I think that's standard is less useful than you imagine.

Say you do something naughty like, I don't know, play badly with others. Your unit commander decides to demote you and sends of a CAPF2 to NHQ. You appeal to a MARP, which finds against you and the demotion stands.

At what point did you go from being "in good standing" to not? At the point you did the naughty thing? At the point your CC decide to demote you? At the point the CAPF2 was filed? At the point at which NHQ processed it and demoted you? Did you go back into good standing as a result of member action review request? When the MARP declined to overturn the demotion, did you go back into good standing? If not, how long are you out of good standing after the demotion?
Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: Eclipse on May 18, 2022, 11:17:13 pm
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on May 18, 2022, 11:05:30 pmAt what point did you go from being "in good standing" to not?

At the point where the formal process of a disciplinary action is filed, or the membership expires, and you go back after any mandated remedial training, actions, or suspensions are completed or exhausted.

A demotion is a result of the process, not the process, nor would "good standing"
be related to, or held up by, higher HQ not bothering to check the box. That doesn't extend the
disciplinary process (other then being potentially frustrating for the member).

While it might seem vague on the face, I don't see anything, anywhere that would not fall into
"membership expired" or "pending disciplinary action" as "not good standing".

A member having a typical bake-sale level "disagreement" with his CC, absent anything formal,
would not fall into that category (etc.).
Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: CAPCom on May 20, 2022, 03:13:49 am
Quote from: jeders on May 18, 2022, 09:46:44 pm
Quote from: CAPCom on May 18, 2022, 02:16:56 pmI'm now wondering if the vagueness of the phrase "in good standing" is intentional.  Meant to be left up to interpretation?

It's not actually very vague in my opinion. "In good standing" seems to be a fairly common term in most organizations and generally just means that you're not in bad standing (i.e. no disciplinary actions being taken against you, all of your obligations are up to date, etc). Of course our resident legal expert Ned can probably give a more insightful answer, but this one really shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

Everyone has a different yardstick to measure behavior, results, assessments.  Everyone also has bias.  Those two things are what can and will cause the phrase "in good standing" to be interpreted differently throughout CAP's membership.  If there is no set definition, then the phrase really means nothing specific because there's no regulation giving the specific definition.  That's problematic.
Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: SarDragon on May 20, 2022, 06:12:31 pm
Given that there are detailed dictionary definitions available in a ten minute Net search for the term (see below), I see little need for a specific definition in a regulation.

good standing

1. The status of a member of a profession who is not suspended or disbarred, and is registered with a proper authority and has paid any registration fees.

2. A person or organization in good standing is regarded as having complied with all their explicit obligations, while not being subject to any form of sanction, suspension or disciplinary censure. A business entity that is in good standing has unabated powers to conduct its activities, which can include business endeavors. Similarly, a person who is in good standing within an organization or educational institution may take advantage of the benefits of membership or enrollment.

3. A person or organization in good standing is regarded as having complied with all his or its explicit obligations and having unabated powers to conduct his or its activities.
Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: CAPCom on May 20, 2022, 06:40:36 pm
Quote from: SarDragon on May 20, 2022, 06:12:31 pmGiven that there are detailed dictionary definitions available in a ten minute Net search for the term (see below), I see little need for a specific definition in a regulation.

good standing

1. The status of a member of a profession who is not suspended or disbarred, and is registered with a proper authority and has paid any registration fees.

2. A person or organization in good standing is regarded as having complied with all their explicit obligations, while not being subject to any form of sanction, suspension or disciplinary censure. A business entity that is in good standing has unabated powers to conduct its activities, which can include business endeavors. Similarly, a person who is in good standing within an organization or educational institution may take advantage of the benefits of membership or enrollment.

3. A person or organization in good standing is regarded as having complied with all his or its explicit obligations and having unabated powers to conduct his or its activities.

CAP's definition is what counts here, and that CAP definition is what I'm looking for.  There are a plethora of "dictionaries" online, rarely do any of them completely and totally mirror the other.  That fact, in and of itself, creates more ambiguity, more loopholes, and less solid understanding of what the term means in CAP world. 

Besides, should we have to consult a dictionary outside of what should be a CAP-related lexicon/glossary or definition easily added to CAP manuals/pamphlets/regulations?  CAP defines for clarity a number of things within our publications.  Even the FEMA courses we take have definitions of phrases, nomenclature, and so on spelled out for us so there is no ambiguity - and when taking the exams, we are expected to know those definitions. 

I personally think it would be helpful to have that particular phrase/term ("member in good standing") defined, specifically because it's a pivotal term, something that makes or breaks someone's membership status.  While I'm not going to become an activist for this particular point, I still feel strongly that the wording needs to be explained and all possible loopholes removed.  A bright line, if you will.
Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: PHall on May 20, 2022, 08:19:33 pm
Have you tried contacting National Headquarters and asking them? They wrote the regs.
Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: CAPCom on May 20, 2022, 08:57:45 pm
Quote from: PHall on May 20, 2022, 08:19:33 pmHave you tried contacting National Headquarters and asking them? They wrote the regs.

Not yet.  I wanted to get opinions and possibly someone pointing me to where they know the definition exists, first.  I don't usually like to bother National until all other avenues have been explored.
Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: SarDragon on May 21, 2022, 05:31:20 am
As a long time CAP member, a Navy retiree, and a 15-year employee of a government contractor, I think I might have sufficient knowledge and background to address this.

The organization specific items you spoke of are just that - organization specific, and generally defined somewhere in a publication glossary. "In Good standing" has a very wide reach, and fits into the category of Best Practices. I provided the first two definitions I came across on the 'Net, and they are all similar.

I'm afraid I can't help you any further if you unable to accept my commentary, even if you might not agree with it. You asked a question, and have been provided a number of essentially identical answers. I doubt that you will get any better answers from NHQ. Also, before you start sending emails or making phone calls, give the Knowledgebase ( https://civilairpatrol.freshdesk.com/support/home ) a look. You need to set up an account and log in. It doesn't use the eServices login.

Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: RiverAux on May 21, 2022, 08:47:35 pm
I guess I'm missing the part where it matters how CAP defines this phrase... Is this a term used somewhere in CAP regulations?  I assume there is or why else would you ask?
Title: Re: Definition for "member in good standing"
Post by: SarDragon on May 21, 2022, 10:57:07 pm
Actually, it appears in the following publications: CAPR 40-1, CAPR 39-3, CAPR 39-2, CAPR 35-9, CAPR 35-1.