Hello. I have a new senior member who seemed to "get" what CAP is about, what my squadron's purpose and vision is when first attending and wanting to join. Then within a very short period of time, the resume was presented with education credentials that included a PhD. The individual has been an academic for several years and hasn't had experience teaching youth for 25 years. After their very short stint teaching high school, they went on to higher degrees and became a college professor. For the last several years they have been sitting at a computer doing research for a think tank. Fast forward to now and the former professor is pretty much demanding the AE specialty track (zero past experience in aerospace, they think reading about it will make them an expert) and they also want immediate promotion to captain because <insert self-centered reason here>. The new member is an okay presenter, very clinical in their approach, but nothing special. They have a very bland personality, yet think they will be a cadet recruiter extraordinaire because they hold a PhD and will be a captain. The new member has plans to be a mission-this and mission-that superstar, they move out of their lane frequently and insert themselves into discussions about how to implement this and that in CAP-related specialty track areas they have no clue about but think they do because they found information about it on the internet. They even tried instructing cadets not too long ago on how to do a specific PT task when the deputy commander for cadets was gone for a few minutes. How did the individual learn about the PT task? They read it on the internet and were doing just that for the cadets as they were looking at him like "Where did this person come from?"
I understand he's enthusiastic. I understand he's smart. I understand he can be useful. I just don't know how to best tell him all this without pissing him off and pushing him out the door.
Anyone experience something similar and have truly helpful advice?
Thanks in advance.
Quote from: CAPCom on March 31, 2022, 01:49:15 PMthe resume was presented with education credentials that included a PhD
Well there's your problem right there.Sounds like a Form 40 conference is long overdue.
Don't pull punches, if it stings, it stings. From there he'll either "get it",
or cease to be a problem.
Are you talking about CAPR 40? Presenting it to this new member? Having a discussion about what's in it?
***Update*** Gotcha. Performance review form 40. Yes. Good idea!
Sounds like many of the individuals I come across: "My skills are valid here because I know things." Knowing and practical application are not synonymous.
I would emphasize the importance of patience and really going through the proper steps for progression. If they want to work with cadets, maybe ask that they complete TLC Basic and Intermediate before you are willing to put them through for an advanced grade.
Let's remember here that there are no automatic promotions. They're all earned, to include advanced promotions due to skills.
Anyone who joins CAP and demands advancement out of the gate...that's sketchy in my books. And I'm not sure that it's appropriate messaging as an exemplar for cadets.
Excellent input, SkyHornet. Thank you.
It sounds to me also like expectations weren't managed very well in the membership committee meeting.
Quote from: Holding Pattern on March 31, 2022, 07:55:00 PMIt sounds to me also like expectations weren't managed very well in the membership committee meeting.
They were managed. It's just that this added "extra" expectation from the new member wasn't expressed until after the membership committe meeting with them. That's a failure (and in my opinion, a character issue) on the part of the new member, not the membership committee.
Let me say this, about that.
In the last couple years, I have developed a little bit of a philosophy on accelerated promotions or other things like badges. Some folks buy it, some folks ... don't. I've been labeled a heretic at times for even suggesting some of this.
Example: Pilot comes in to CAP. Lady has a long aviation history, 10s of thousands of hours flying, former military, retired airline, etc. CAPR 35-6 says that a waiver can be requested for command pilot wings based on equivalent gov't or military rated service in lieu of CAP service time. One of the officers in her unit latches on to that paragraph and tells her "I can get you command pilot wings!" and proceeds to campaign for them. Literally from about day 1. I get multiple emails requesting this waiver. Unfortunately, the documentation is lacking a little, and I don't have a clear "A to B, B to C" chain that shows "equivalent military or government rated service."
From the outset of the whole waiver request, it is never exactly clear how granting command pilot wings to this lady will benefit CAP. Now, don't get me wrong: I want to make sure people get some bling-bling. But I want to make sure that we're rewarding appropriately for contributions made to CAP. I really want to know that the multiple thousands of hours former military retired airline pilot is using her skills in a way that helps CAP in an aviation context, which makes the "sell" to Region and NHQ for this waiver work.
If the answer is "this lady doesn't even have a Form 5 yet," then chances are region is going to look askance upon a request for this waiver.
Are we asking for something "because we can" or are we asking for something "because they need to be recognized and rewarded for their excellent contributions to CAP?" If it's the former, then maybe we really need to see the latter.
Same goes for a request for a promotion for, say, a CFI. And I've seen dozens of those.
"He's a CFI. Give him captain. Now."
Uh, ok, hold up.
Is he even a CAP pilot? ("No").
Is he willing to be an instructor pilot or check airman for CAP? ("No").
Is he even a current CFI? ("No").
Well, then, no, I'm not signing off on this promotion to captain. (CAPR 35-5, para 4.1 reads, in part, "...provided they are contributing these skills to the CAP mission.")
"Well, then he's probably going to quit."
Well, sorry about that. You sold that pilot a bill of goods. You promised them something you weren't in a position to promise. Because advanced promotions and waivers to qualifications are intended to reward people who are using specific skills and experiences to benefit CAP first and foremost.
Unit wants to promote a college professor to Captain. Is she assigned as an AEO and acting in that capacity? Does she want to act in that capacity? If the answers to all those are no, then there's no need to promote under CAPR 35-5 para 5.42 because the criteria is not met.
If, however, you're using your professional or mission-related skill in a way that benefits CAP, then yes, I want to reward you for doing so with, say, advanced grade. Or if you're providing my wing with expert aviation leadership and mentorship that comes from being a multi-thousand hour former military and commercial aviator, then yeah, I probably want to make sure that you're wearing command pilot wings to put a little weight behind that.
Speaking as a recruiter: if you're having to dangle badges and promotions in front of prospective members to get them to sign on the dotted, then chances are they're not joining CAP for the right reasons and are not going to be successful, long-term members who are here for the right reasons.
Speaking as a commander: I need people who are going to use their skills and abilities to help CAP grow and accomplish its missions. I need people who are willing to give of themselves, to volunteer their time, talent and treasure, to make CAP a great organization. Those people are what I call "givers." If all they want is a promotion to Captain, or pad their log book with flying, and aren't willing to use their skills to help CAP, then by and large they're "takers." I have plenty of them without adding more to the ranks.
Bingo, sir. This individual has no background in AE, thinks they can become an expert in it by reading stuff, wants AE (in my opinion as well as what I'm feeling in my gut) in order to get the promotion. Yes, when I give them AE later on they will be (hopefully) helping out the primary AEO, but all that has yet to be proven. So far when I've asked if they can help with xyz or abc and it all is stuff that gets your hands dirty, the answer has been "I'm not available" or no communications requesting their assistance have been returned.
I don't need brainiacs I need people to jump in and actually volunteer. I need people that are going to serve CAP and our unit and our Wing, not read about how to do it and then not do anything of worth or that truly fulfills a need.
I like what SkyHornet suggested. If you're going to take the time to do the classes that actually show you're interested in the new direction the unit is going (a focus on CP), then I need more than a nod of the head in tacit agreement when I tell you that's the direction we're going. I need you to volunteer to be an encampment staff member so you can see what the heart of CAP is about and how all those positions you say you are interested in truly function. I need you to take TLC and start to implement what you were taught.
The individual wanting the bars from the jump start is going to eventually be an asset, I do believe that. But until they truly understand it's not the bars that cause anyone else in CAP to respect you and take you seriously, rather, it's actually the work and time you put into doing things CAP sees as valuable and needs done, they're going to be more of a problem than an asset.
I appreciate everyone's input and hope how I'm now planning to tackle this problem will produce the right results. I don't want this person to go away, I want them to get a clue.
My advice, if it would be any help, is to avoid at all costs making this a 1v1 issue. Use your unit Membership Committee to document a course of action leading to substantiation of his readiness for advanced grade/ratings.
Your Membership Committee, with the involvement of your Deputies for Cadets/Seniors, the PD Officer and the Commander, can table and discuss the issues involved, research the regs and draft up some options for him in terms of staffing assignments (assistant jobs for example, with an assigned mentor). These assignments, together with a plan for PME (courses, readings, and OJT hands on projects) would then set a documented course of action in place to support a solid Form 2 application for advanced grade based on A, B, C... through n.
If, God forbid, he has a hassle with that, then you've got a written plan backed up by the regs to help him progress, if you need to apply progressive discipline. Hard to argue with that. You never know, he might take to the structured plan well, and settle down productively as a valued asset. Some folks don't respond well to an apparent vacuum and need structure to know their swim lanes/boundaries.
Good luck!
Spam
Quote from: Spam on April 01, 2022, 04:33:30 AMyou've got a written plan backed up by the regs to help him progress, if you need to apply progressive discipline. Hard to argue with that. You never know, he might take to the structured plan well, and settle down productively as a valued asset. Some folks don't respond well to an apparent vacuum and need structure to know their swim lanes/boundaries.
Having learned this individual's personality over the last few months, they are the type who needs the structure spelled out for them and in writing. A form 40 is the way to get there in order to outline not so much how they are doing, but my expectations as commander which include the squadron path and tone I'm setting, which is in line with what the Wing wants, too. Bottom line, we are a volunteer organization with a specific purpose and missions. That means we can't indulge every new member's fantasies of playing military dress-up and getting cadets to drop and give 20 on order from a "Captain" because they believe the double bars carry more gravitas and they want to be recognized as cool because they are uber-educated. In reality, the bling carries no real weight except among those not in CAP who think someone with Captain's insignia has "arrived". What counts inside CAP is the work done by the person wearing the bling. If I emphasize the work they are to do in order to get the bling and have that path of expectation lined out for them in writing, then we are both in a position of accountability and the member receiving the form 40 isn't set up for failure or disappointment. They will also know the boundaries and expectations. If they follow them, great. If they don't, oh well. There are other squadrons within driving distance they can join if they are unhappy, I guess.
Caution: if you have a member - ANY member - who is dropping cadets for push ups outside of a normally scheduled cadet physical fitness event, you need to immediately put a full stop to that practice, suspend that member from working with cadets, and conduct CPPT immediately with them. Suggest attendance at TLC as well. What you're describing is clearly abuse.
V/r
Spam
Quote from: Spam on April 01, 2022, 03:12:33 PMCaution: if you have a member - ANY member - who is dropping cadets for push ups outside of a normally scheduled cadet physical fitness event, you need to immediately put a full stop to that practice, suspend that member from working with cadets, and conduct CPPT immediately with them. Suggest attendance at TLC as well. What you're describing (the dropping cadets for 20) is clearly abuse and I hope that was a mere hypothetical for instance.
V/r
Spam
Quote from: Spam on April 01, 2022, 03:12:33 PMCaution: if you have a member - ANY member - who is dropping cadets for push ups outside of a normally scheduled cadet physical fitness event, you need to immediately put a full stop to that practice, suspend that member from working with cadets, and conduct CPPT immediately with them. Suggest attendance at TLC as well. What you're describing is clearly abuse.
V/r
Spam
"...is clearly abuse". No kidding.
No one is doing that at my unit and it never will happen as long as I'm a member. It was an extreme example of what can happen if a senior member is allowed to get the wrong idea about what we do in CAP with cadets. It's what can happen when someone has fantasies about finally getting to wear a uniform and look important IF the red flags are ignored. I'm not ignoring them, I'm dealing with them.
Don't go off the deep end with my comments, please.
Quote from: CAPCom on April 01, 2022, 03:55:36 PMDon't go off the deep end with my comments, please.
Didn't think I was, as you brought it up. Ok, you asked but clearly I don't have helpful advice for you.
Quote from: Spam on April 01, 2022, 06:21:46 PMQuote from: CAPCom on April 01, 2022, 03:55:36 PMDon't go off the deep end with my comments, please.
Didn't think I was, as you brought it up. Ok, you asked but clearly I don't have helpful advice for you.
You did have helpful advice. It was the original response of you thinking I was serious about anyone in my unit having cadets drop and give 20 for pushups and the "abuse" comment that seemed entirely off-topic as well as out in left field. Simply because it really was out in left field. The rest of your commentary and advice was fine.
Quote from: Spam on April 01, 2022, 03:12:33 PM... dropping cadets for push ups outside of a normally scheduled cadet physical fitness event...What you're describing is clearly abuse.
On this point I also disagree with you. CAP defines abuse (CAPR 60-2) this way - emphasis mine:
Quote from: CAPR 60-21.5.1. Abuse. Federal law (PL 111-320, 42 USC 55101) defines child abuse as, at a minimum:
"Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker (e.g. CAP adult leader) that results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse, or exploitation, or alternatively, an act or failure to act that presents an imminent risk of serious harm."
1.5.1.1. Actions can violate this regulation without rising to actual abuse under the definition above. See "boundary concerns" in 1.5.6.
1.5.1.2. In CAP's military-style training environment, it is important to distinguish emotional abuse, which by definition inflicts serious harm, from an inappropriately high training intensity, which, though momentarily unpleasant, is not abusive because it does not inflict serious harm. See 2.9 for guidance on training intensity.
2.9.2. Mismatched Goals & Intensities. An inappropriately high level of training intensity does not meet this regulation's definition of abuse or hazing unless it causes serious physical harm or serious emotional harm. Inappropriate yelling, using exercise as punishment, and creating an overly-stressful environment and other conduct listed in CAPP 60-15 are examples of inappropriately high training intensities that will be treated as boundary concerns.
It's abuse in that it is a specifically prohibited activity.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 01, 2022, 08:21:50 PMIt's abuse in that it is a specifically prohibited activity.
That's like saying the definition of food is bread, in that bread can be eaten.
Exercise as punishment could be abuse, if it results in serious physical or emotional harm, but it is not
clearly abuse if all we know is push-ups were used as punishment.
This is not my opinion, it's literally all spelled out in the regulation I quoted.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 01, 2022, 08:21:50 PMIt's abuse in that it is a specifically prohibited activity.
From the regulatory perspective, it's not abuse (in the context of CAPR 60-2) to use exercise as punishment, unless it gives rise to serious physical, emotional or sexual harm. Otherwise, it's specifically called out as a boundary concern that falls short of actual abuse. ref. CAPR 60-2 2.9.2
There's a topic guys, get back on it.
All of the comments seem to lend that this individual is "invading" CAP and also seems to be a threat to others because he has educational credentials and a shotgun approach to the organization. There is a lot of criticism about teaching styles and interpersonal communications. Then the issue elevates to performance evaluations, where I am certain you will lose this individual.
Do you value this individual and what he can contribute or are we going to continue trashing him until he quits. Then you have a whole new issue because the individual may be prominent in the community and his negative experience could impact on the public perception of the unit.
The problem is just as much about the leadership mentoring this individual as it is the member seemingly being like a kid in a candy store with too many choices.
Where is the member mentoring where someone can help the individual focus on a certain area or specialty to get their feet wet until they are ready to accept more responsibility. Why hasn't someone recognized that the solution may be as simple as the same advice a thesis advisor makes to a grad student, requiring them to focus on a small part of a research plan instead of a broad picture that will certainly lead the student off track. Try making the individual focus on one area.
We as an organization do the same things to senior CAP members who return to active service from retirement. Technically, a retired member was still affiliated with the organization as some sort of card-carrying associate member. But if that individual completed the senior member training program, was an aircrew member, was a former group commander, holder of several masters ratings and was a wing staff officer at retirement; try finding him an assignment upon return to duty. Instead, the individual -- more than often -- is told "we don't know where you fit in." Nice right!
In the same way, instead of finding fault with this individual, we as members have a responsibility to guide a new individual down the path leading to his greatest success and most benefit for our organization. Every CAP member is critically important to the success of this organization. It is our duty help them find their purpose.
Quote from: flyboy53 on April 03, 2022, 12:14:02 PMThe problem is just as much about the leadership mentoring this individual as it is the member seemingly being like a kid in a candy store with too many choices.
You're not wrong, however that ship sailed. This is the course correction.
Mentoring is literally the intention and purpose of a Form 40 conference, unfortunately all too
often it's not used until there is a problem.
CAP's primary MO is hoping people "get it" via osmosis - most do, but many don't,
and some refuse.
That doesn't change what needs to happen here.
Resetting a person's understanding of what CAP is, and more importantly
isn't, and their
proper place in that puzzle isn't "finding fault", it's supposed to set them up for success,
however the hard-fast reality is that CAP isn't for everyone, and playing games because you're
concerned someone's FaceSpace group might get irked that they were shown the truth isn't going to
make the situation better for anyone.
Quote from: flyboy53 on April 03, 2022, 12:14:02 PMWe as an organization do the same things to senior CAP members who return to active service from retirement. Technically, a retired member was still affiliated with the organization as some sort of card-carrying associate member. But if that individual completed the senior member training program, was an aircrew member, was a former group commander, holder of several masters ratings and was a wing staff officer at retirement; try finding him an assignment upon return to duty. Instead, the individual -- more than often -- is told "we don't know where you fit in." Nice right!
Was is the keyword above.
A former member who comes out of retirement, who sits quietly for a while and listens and
learns what CAP has evolved into since they left, and how the "new" CAP can use them
is going to be welcome anywhere, but usually it's just a bunch of WIWAC, WIWAS, and
"I was doing ELT hunts by body-blocking with a crystal radio before you were born son, just
sign my SQTR, and also how do I get a CAP radio for my house?"
That or dragging someone out of retirement is the only way to keep the doors open
on a failing(ed) unit
There's a reason un-retirements have to be approved by NHQ, and I would argue they are not,
in any way, "associated" members, as they aren't even paying patron dues. It's a nice way
to recognize long service, but nothing more or less, with the majority "retiring" because
either they have had a snootful of CAP, or are of an advanced age and are moving on to more
existential endeavors.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 03, 2022, 02:31:46 PMResetting a person's understanding of what CAP is, and more importantly isn't, and their
proper place in that puzzle isn't "finding fault", it's supposed to set them up for success,
however the hard-fast reality is that CAP isn't for everyone, and playing games because you're
concerned someone's FaceSpace group might get irked that they were shown the truth isn't going to
make the situation better for anyone.
This is exactly what will be happening. A reset and clear expectations as well as a clearly outlined path to the promotion they want in order to help them become successful, of productive use to the squadron, and keep them from getting burned out and disappointed.
Quote from: flyboy53 on April 03, 2022, 12:14:02 PMThe problem is just as much about the leadership mentoring this individual as it is the member seemingly being like a kid in a candy store with too many choices.
Yes, that is what's happening: the new member is feeling like a kid in a candy store with too many choices. Even though I warned them from the get-go they should focus, they ignored me. What also happened unbeknownst to me is senior members in the unit putting the quick promotion carrot in front of them. Telling them that auto-promotion to Captain was not only deserved because of their education but also compulsory and automatic, something that was supposed to happen regardless of what I decided. I had already addressed the issue with the new member and told them the promotion was going to happen eventually but be on the back burner for a while. The other senior members have continued to push the issue. What ended up happening wasn't my fault, it was the fault of others in the squadron who thought they knew better than I and essentially set the new member in a place to feel as if they were being short-shrift. Unit politics and manipulation at its worst.
Quote from: CAPCom on April 04, 2022, 01:19:33 AMWhat also happened unbeknownst to me is senior members in the unit putting the quick promotion carrot in front of them. Telling them that auto-promotion to Captain was not only deserved because of their but also compulsory and automatic, something that was supposed to happen regardless of what I decided.
These people probably need a '40 as well.
Nothing makes things "easier" for a leader then other people making promises that
aren't theirs to keep.
I hear what you are suggesting Eclipse and don't necessarily disagree. But I don't want to use the f-40 has a hammer. Which is how it will be perceived once word gets around that I've 40'd the new member and what it contains. It'll happen in time, just not now. Not yet.
Quote from: CAPCom on April 04, 2022, 01:19:33 AMQuote from: Eclipse on April 03, 2022, 02:31:46 PMResetting a person's understanding of what CAP is, and more importantly isn't, and their
proper place in that puzzle isn't "finding fault", it's supposed to set them up for success,
however the hard-fast reality is that CAP isn't for everyone, and playing games because you're
concerned someone's FaceSpace group might get irked that they were shown the truth isn't going to
make the situation better for anyone.
This is exactly what will be happening. A reset and clear expectations as well as a clearly outlined path to the promotion they want in order to help them become successful, of productive use to the squadron, and keep them from getting burned out and disappointed.
Quote from: flyboy53 on April 03, 2022, 12:14:02 PMThe problem is just as much about the leadership mentoring this individual as it is the member seemingly being like a kid in a candy store with too many choices.
Yes, that is what's happening: the new member is feeling like a kid in a candy store with too many choices. Even though I warned them from the get-go they should focus, they ignored me. What also happened unbeknownst to me is senior members in the unit putting the quick promotion carrot in front of them. Telling them that auto-promotion to Captain was not only deserved because of their education but also compulsory and automatic, something that was supposed to happen regardless of what I decided. I had already addressed the issue with the new member and told them the promotion was going to happen but be on the back burner for a while. The other senior members have continued to push the issue. What ended up happening wasn't my fault, it was the fault of others in the squadron who thought they knew better than I and essentially set the new member in a place to feel as if they were being short-shrift. Unit politics and manipulation at its worst.
Thank you for at least considering that something I said had merit. You can't get beyond unit level politics. The best you can do is establish policies to make sure it doesn't happen again and guide the individual down a path of usefulness to the organization.
The problem with a special qualification promotion is that they are used as a recruiting tool instead of for the merit that they are intended, and I say that "tongue in cheek," because my promotion to second lieutenant many years ago was because I held a third-class radio telephone license with an Element 9 endorsement -- which means that at one point I also held a technician rating in communications. The promotion isn't really automatic and should be at the recommendation of the commanders up the chain of command.
The problem is that what happens during a CAP career involves a lot of being in the right place at the right time and being prepared for that opportunity when it occurs -- which is all about training and qualifications. You may never use a certain specialty again, as in my case, except remotely as an aircrew member. As far as the promotion goes, it's now in the past. What you can do now is make the unit adhere to a promotion policy that is by the regulation.
As far as the individual is concerned, he needs to be focused on a specific specialty and, at the same time, I would suggest that he pursue a mission rating like aircrew, UAV, or ground team. There is enough in any of those areas to keep him occupied. Certainly, you can do that in the form of counseling, but I have found such instances as punitive. I would recommend, instead, that something mission-related is done to lend him some sort of credibility as an officer. He needs to understand that being an instant captain may also be permanent captain if he isn't ready to do those things that would advance his career and make him noteworthy as an officer.
"All of the comments seem to lend that this individual is "invading" CAP and also seems to be a threat to others because he has educational credentials and a shotgun approach to the organization. There is a lot of criticism about teaching styles and interpersonal communications. Then the issue elevates to performance evaluations, where I am certain you will lose this individual. Do you value this individual and what he can contribute or are we going to continue trashing him until he quits. Then you have a whole new issue because the individual may be prominent in the community and his negative experience could impact on the public perception of the unit."
flyboy53, a few things I'd like to clear up regarding the above ^^^
No, I don't see them as "invading" CAP or the unit. Nor do I see this person as a threat due to their education. I have several degrees and a lot of education also. They don't have any prominence in the community, either. They are new to the area so public trashing of CAP and the squadron isn't going to happen. Even if it did, I wouldn't worry. I have been in this area for a very long time, have a good reputation and know a LOT of people. Have a lot of strong and community-based connections through a wide-range of local, military, emergency-services, volunteer, political, arts-based, and social groups. The same goes for a number of our long-term members.
I'm happy this person is part of the squadron. My issue with them (aside from shopping for opinions from "higher ranking members" because they don't like my answer about their desired promotion and seem to think grade is an influence on my decision making) is that the whole picture changed once they became a member. Before the application was approved in eServices, it was, "what can I do?". Then when their membership was on the books it became (over and over again), "what can you do for me?". This happened even after I spelled out very clearly to them what our unit's focus is, that I needed "workers", hands-on folks, new blood, new ideas, new perspective toward the unit focus. That I want volunteers with a heart for volunteering. I even quoted Jimmy Doolittle to make sure my 'servant leadership' message was clear ("there's nothing stronger than the heart of a volunteer"). So far I'm seeing and hearing me-me-me rather than "for the cadets" and "for the rebuilding of the squadron".
The other thing I've learned about them is they have the mistaken idea that grade alone is important and those in lower grades must kowtow to the opinions and wishes of other members who have a higher grade. They think grade is what gets respect in CAP. This is also a HUGE problem when I know the new member is practically salivating to get the advanced promotion to Captain.
It's now clear they have serious misconceptions about a number of things CAP and not only need a reset, they need specific direction and framework to become team- and unit-focused, not self-focused. Because they are a mature-in-age adult, I thought what we met and talked about when their membership started would be enough. Clearly it's not and everything needs to be put on paper, something for them to reference in order to keep on track and on topic.
That's fine, I don't mind. I want them to succeed but to do it appropriately and "the CAP way". Coming into CAP and thinking you will succeed right away and people will listen to you because you have a certain grade and education level, that you will make everything fantastic and produce outstanding work immediately, that you will "save" the unit and make it better because you have the right alphabet combo after your name -- all of that is wrong-headed. But it makes sense this person feels that way because the work-environment culture they are used to (academia) believes all of the above and operates on that premise.
New senior members who have not been cadets, even if they were/are military, have to learn "the CAP way" of doing things. This individual thinks they don't have to because, well... Ph.D.
Truth is, academic culture and its caste system is not CAP culture. I now realize the new member believes the adults are the leaders of a composite squadron and their teaching and mentorship is to be showcased for cadets to learn from. This person believes with all their heart that the academic model is what we do, and I now have to change their perception. Until that perception changes or at least is on its way to visibly changing, they won't get the promotion. They have to prove they understand what we're doing in this organization, in the unit, why we are doing it, and offer some real work-effort that proves they finally "get it" (even a fraction of getting it would make me feel better). In other words, they have to prove their worth by being "smarter" not just promise it. I mean, that's why we have the grade advancement structure we do in CAP, right? It's a time of "learning CAP" and putting what you've learned to use for the benefit of CAP. The advanced promotion "recruiting tool" can be a true stumbling block to the unwise and unsavvy. I think this particular member proves it to be so.
Bottom line: I want them to succeed and will do everything I can to help them get there. It's clear they can't accomplish success unsupervised and without close guidance. Sadly, this is a case of all that education, yet not a lot of common sense and "smarts" put into practical application. It's going to be a growing and new kind of learning experience for them. I'll help guide but I'm not going to babysit and enable. So, I guess they'll either sink or swim.
Quote from: CAPCom on April 04, 2022, 03:28:24 AMI hear what you are suggesting Eclipse and don't necessarily disagree. But I don't want to use the f-40 has a hammer. Which is how it will be perceived once word gets around that I've 40'd the new member and what it contains. It'll happen in time, just not now. Not yet.
Easy, form 40 everybody on an annual basis, starting with an initial one upon membership setting expectations.
Quote from: CAPCom on April 04, 2022, 04:25:51 PM"All of the comments seem to lend that this individual is "invading" CAP and also seems to be a threat to others because he has educational credentials and a shotgun approach to the organization. There is a lot of criticism about teaching styles and interpersonal communications. Then the issue elevates to performance evaluations, where I am certain you will lose this individual. Do you value this individual and what he can contribute or are we going to continue trashing him until he quits. Then you have a whole new issue because the individual may be prominent in the community and his negative experience could impact on the public perception of the unit."
flyboy53, a few things I'd like to clear up regarding the above ^^^
No, I don't see them as "invading" CAP or the unit. Nor do I see this person as a threat due to their education. I have several degrees and a lot of education also. They don't have any prominence in the community, either. They are new to the area so public trashing of CAP and the squadron isn't going to happen. Even if it did, I wouldn't worry. I have been in this area for a very long time, have a good reputation and know a LOT of people. Have a lot of strong and community-based connections through a wide-range of local, military, emergency-services, volunteer, political, arts-based, and social groups. The same goes for a number of our long-term members.
I'm happy this person is part of the squadron. My issue with them (aside from shopping for opinions from "higher ranking members" because they don't like my answer about their desired promotion and seem to think grade is an influence on my decision making) is that the whole picture changed once they became a member. Before the application was approved in eServices, it was, "what can I do?". Then when their membership was on the books it became (over and over again), "what can you do for me?". This happened even after I spelled out very clearly to them what our unit's focus is, that I needed "workers", hands-on folks, new blood, new ideas, new perspective toward the unit focus. That I want volunteers with a heart for volunteering. I even quoted Jimmy Doolittle to make sure my 'servant leadership' message was clear ("there's nothing stronger than the heart of a volunteer"). So far I'm seeing and hearing me-me-me rather than "for the cadets" and "for the rebuilding of the squadron".
The other thing I've learned about them is they have the mistaken idea that grade alone is important and those in lower grades must kowtow to the opinions and wishes of other members who have a higher grade. They think grade is what gets respect in CAP. This is also a HUGE problem when I know the new member is practically salivating to get the advanced promotion to Captain.
It's now clear they have serious misconceptions about a number of things CAP and not only need a reset, they need specific direction and framework to become team- and unit-focused, not self-focused. Because they are a mature-in-age adult, I thought what we met and talked about when their membership started would be enough. Clearly it's not and everything needs to be put on paper, something for them to reference in order to keep on track and on topic.
That's fine, I don't mind. I want them to succeed but to do it appropriately and "the CAP way". Coming into CAP and thinking you will succeed right away and people will listen to you because you have a certain grade and education level, that you will make everything fantastic and produce outstanding work immediately, that you will "save" the unit and make it better because you have the right alphabet combo after your name -- all of that is wrong-headed. But it makes sense this person feels that way because the work-environment culture they are used to (academia) believes all of the above and operates on that premise.
New senior members who have not been cadets, even if they were/are military, have to learn "the CAP way" of doing things. This individual thinks they don't have to because, well... Ph.D.
Truth is, academic culture and its caste system is not CAP culture. I now realize the new member believes the adults are the leaders of a composite squadron and their teaching and mentorship is to be showcased for cadets to learn from. This person believes with all their heart that the academic model is what we do, and I now have to change their perception. Until that perception changes or at least is on its way to visibly changing, they won't get the promotion. They have to prove they understand what we're doing in this organization, in the unit, why we are doing it, and offer some real work-effort that proves they finally "get it" (even a fraction of getting it would make me feel better). In other words, they have to prove their worth by being "smarter" not just promise it. I mean, that's why we have the grade advancement structure we do in CAP, right? It's a time of "learning CAP" and putting what you've learned to use for the benefit of CAP. The advanced promotion "recruiting tool" can be a true stumbling block to the unwise and unsavvy. I think this particular member proves it to be so.
Bottom line: I want them to succeed and will do everything I can to help them get there. It's clear they can't accomplish success unsupervised and without close guidance. Sadly, this is a case of all that education, yet not a lot of common sense and "smarts" put into practical application. It's going to be a growing and new kind of learning experience for them. I'll help guide but I'm not going to babysit and enable. So, I guess they'll either sink or swim.
Thank you for the clarification. The CAP Way isn't too uncommon if you've had experience on the boards of other not for profits or volunteer first responder organizations. It sounds cold, but you hold all of the cards in the case of this senior member and that includes the fact that he may be frozen at a certain rank until he gets with the program.
I'm a big believer in the senior member training program. I have seen it transform some people (my wife, the major), make them more effective as members, and influence their lives outside the organization. I have also seen others sink and eventually quit, which is tragic but the reality.
I would still make him focus on the senior member training program -- ALL OF IT -- and do pick something operational. Have him even sign up as encampment staff. You never know how someone else's influence may steer this individual in the right direction.
Quote from: flyboy53 on April 04, 2022, 05:35:20 PMI would still make him focus on the senior member training program -- ALL OF IT -- and do pick something operational. Have him even sign up as encampment staff. You never know how someone else's influence may steer this individual in the right direction.
I tried several weeks ago. "Too busy this summer" was the response. Mind you, they have the summer off. That was another red flag. If you're not willing to get into the trenches to do the hard stuff and only reach for the book/head knowledge while still thinking you deserve or are entitled to a special and early appointment to a higher grade without having actually done anything yet... that's a problem. Hence, yet another reason why this whole misconception on their part of "grade = power and prestige" needs to be nipped in the bud ASAP.
Quote from: CAPCom on April 04, 2022, 05:49:58 PMI tried several weeks ago. "Too busy this summer" was the response. Mind you, they have the summer off.
Not really getting into the issue, but this struck a chord with me. I am an academic. Serve with teaching undergraduate students. I have heard this before (even from my Division Chief): you get the summer off. True, I do not have undergraduate students in the summer, but I do not get the summer off. In fact, it is seriously busy. This is the time for me to: 1) get vacation with my family as I do not have the freedom to take vacation during the academic calendar; 2) serve on professional committees; 3) attend conferences; 4) write grants; 5) write articles; 6) work on curriculum development; 7) spend time recruiting; 8) get caught up reading articles; 9) performing quality improvement projects; 10) work on other required tasks for my University; 11) the list continues.
Completely agree...About time CAP personnel stop bagging on professionals in Academia...myour own VolU isn't a true testament of education value. Until that seriously out of Beta testing and until most have have lived the the life of a teacher/ administrator spouse...and the the 3 months "OFF" doesn't hold water anymore...might want to investigate what some on academia do for a living
Quote from: CAPCom on April 04, 2022, 04:25:51 PM"All of the comments seem to lend that this individual is "invading" CAP and also seems to be a threat to others because he has educational credentials and a shotgun approach to the organization. There is a lot of criticism about teaching styles and interpersonal communications. Then the issue elevates to performance evaluations, where I am certain you will lose this individual. Do you value this individual and what he can contribute or are we going to continue trashing him until he quits. Then you have a whole new issue because the individual may be prominent in the community and his negative experience could impact on the public perception of the unit."
flyboy53, a few things I'd like to clear up regarding the above ^^^
No, I don't see them as "invading" CAP or the unit. Nor do I see this person as a threat due to their education. I have several degrees and a lot of education also. They don't have any prominence in the community, either. They are new to the area so public trashing of CAP and the squadron isn't going to happen. Even if it did, I wouldn't worry. I have been in this area for a very long time, have a good reputation and know a LOT of people. Have a lot of strong and community-based connections through a wide-range of local, military, emergency-services, volunteer, political, arts-based, and social groups. The same goes for a number of our long-term members.
I'm happy this person is part of the squadron. My issue with them (aside from shopping for opinions from "higher ranking members" because they don't like my answer about their desired promotion and seem to think grade is an influence on my decision making) is that the whole picture changed once they became a member. Before the application was approved in eServices, it was, "what can I do?". Then when their membership was on the books it became (over and over again), "what can you do for me?". This happened even after I spelled out very clearly to them what our unit's focus is, that I needed "workers", hands-on folks, new blood, new ideas, new perspective toward the unit focus. That I want volunteers with a heart for volunteering. I even quoted Jimmy Doolittle to make sure my 'servant leadership' message was clear ("there's nothing stronger than the heart of a volunteer"). So far I'm seeing and hearing me-me-me rather than "for the cadets" and "for the rebuilding of the squadron".
The other thing I've learned about them is they have the mistaken idea that grade alone is important and those in lower grades must kowtow to the opinions and wishes of other members who have a higher grade. They think grade is what gets respect in CAP. This is also a HUGE problem when I know the new member is practically salivating to get the advanced promotion to Captain.
It's now clear they have serious misconceptions about a number of things CAP and not only need a reset, they need specific direction and framework to become team- and unit-focused, not self-focused. Because they are a mature-in-age adult, I thought what we met and talked about when their membership started would be enough. Clearly it's not and everything needs to be put on paper, something for them to reference in order to keep on track and on topic.
That's fine, I don't mind. I want them to succeed but to do it appropriately and "the CAP way". Coming into CAP and thinking you will succeed right away and people will listen to you because you have a certain grade and education level, that you will make everything fantastic and produce outstanding work immediately, that you will "save" the unit and make it better because you have the right alphabet combo after your name -- all of that is wrong-headed. But it makes sense this person feels that way because the work-environment culture they are used to (academia) believes all of the above and operates on that premise.
New senior members who have not been cadets, even if they were/are military, have to learn "the CAP way" of doing things. This individual thinks they don't have to because, well... Ph.D.
Truth is, academic culture and its caste system is not CAP culture. I now realize the new member believes the adults are the leaders of a composite squadron and their teaching and mentorship is to be showcased for cadets to learn from. This person believes with all their heart that the academic model is what we do, and I now have to change their perception. Until that perception changes or at least is on its way to visibly changing, they won't get the promotion. They have to prove they understand what we're doing in this organization, in the unit, why we are doing it, and offer some real work-effort that proves they finally "get it" (even a fraction of getting it would make me feel better). In other words, they have to prove their worth by being "smarter" not just promise it. I mean, that's why we have the grade advancement structure we do in CAP, right? It's a time of "learning CAP" and putting what you've learned to use for the benefit of CAP. The advanced promotion "recruiting tool" can be a true stumbling block to the unwise and unsavvy. I think this particular member proves it to be so.
Bottom line: I want them to succeed and will do everything I can to help them get there. It's clear they can't accomplish success unsupervised and without close guidance. Sadly, this is a case of all that education, yet not a lot of common sense and "smarts" put into practical application. It's going to be a growing and new kind of learning experience for them. I'll help guide but I'm not going to babysit and enable. So, I guess they'll either sink or swim.
I get it; a no-win situation. I commend you for your patience. I saw plenty of examples like that in grad school and professionally, too. It's one of the reasons why I don't wear my education on my sleeve.
Not sure if the Form 40 is the end all in this situation. I would still document it, but I would prefer withholding a future promotion or an important assignment as a better solution. He will either quit, get it and conform, or transfer and be someone else's problem. Sink or swim. Either way, make him own it.
In the end, you are responsible to do what is best for your unit and the members you command, regardless of how unpopular that decision may be.
Quote from: LSThiker on April 04, 2022, 11:45:06 PMQuote from: CAPCom on April 04, 2022, 05:49:58 PMI tried several weeks ago. "Too busy this summer" was the response. Mind you, they have the summer off.
Not really getting into the issue, but this struck a chord with me. I am an academic. Serve with teaching undergraduate students. I have heard this before (even from my Division Chief): you get the summer off. True, I do not have undergraduate students in the summer, but I do not get the summer off. In fact, it is seriously busy. This is the time for me to: 1) get vacation with my family as I do not have the freedom to take vacation during the academic calendar; 2) serve on professional committees; 3) attend conferences; 4) write grants; 5) write articles; 6) work on curriculum development; 7) spend time recruiting; 8) get caught up reading articles; 9) performing quality improvement projects; 10) work on other required tasks for my University; 11) the list continues.
That's you, not the individual in my unit.
Quote from: heliodoc on April 04, 2022, 11:59:43 PMAbout time CAP personnel stop bagging on professionals in Academia
It seems you, along with LSThiker, missed the entire point while making this all about (each of) you while not even considering that your personal scenarios don't match the life scenario of the member I'm referencing. Here's a clue: you're both off the mark in your analysis. That's what happens when you make assumptions.
Quote from: CAPCom on April 05, 2022, 01:06:26 AMQuote from: heliodoc on April 04, 2022, 11:59:43 PMAbout time CAP personnel stop bagging on professionals in Academia
It seems you, along with LSThiker, missed the entire point while making this all about (each of) you.
No I understand the discussion. Quite frankly, it appears have been problems on both sides. Perhaps, his ego getting the best of him, not properly laying out expectations during the membership committee, not being upfront about how degrees and promotions work, and letting the issue go on too long instead of addressing it immediately and directly? Since I was not there, I chose not to judge that. My point was, just because "Too busy this summer" was the response. Mind you, they have the summer off." Unless you have direct experience of what this person does in the summer, just because a person has "the summer off", it may not really mean the summer off for him. Perhaps there is a health issue that he has chosen not to disclose and cannot take a week off for encampment. There are plenty of reasons why many SMs never go to summer encampment, so I would not be too judgy in his resistance in going.
Quote from: LSThiker on April 05, 2022, 02:08:33 AMUnless you have direct experience of what this person does in the summer, just because a person has "the summer off", it may not really mean the summer off for him.
Unless you know the person and know their situation, it seems to me you shouldn't be trying to provide explanations. Not trying to be rude, but I know the individual, you do not. They gave me a deeper excuse beyond being busy this summer, I just choose not to disclose it here. I do and will likely continue to get "judgy" about SMs not doing encampment at least once when they have the time to do it. Cadets have to do encampment in order to promote, I think senior members should be held to the same, or at the very least a similar, standard IF they have the ability to take the time. That's my personal opinion, and I'm sure it will never become a thing in CAP. It would be great if senior members could just show up for an overnight or two at encampment to get a feel for what goes on. It's also the perfect place to see the nuts and bolts of a CAP activity where so many duty assignments are happening all at once, when the rubber really meets the road with cadet training, and how senior members are to let cadets lead cadets without interference. It's an amazing endeavor that all members should see with their own eyes. Senior members learn a lot while there just as cadets do. And the usual players need a break from doing it time after time, year after year, too. That won't change unless more senior members step up and just do it. It's hard work, a hard week for all, but an invaluable experience for certain. I really do wish it was required for seniors to have some on-site involvement just once in their membership tenure.
Quote from: CAPCom on April 05, 2022, 02:30:21 AMUnless you know the person and know their situation, it seems to me you shouldn't be trying to provide explanations. Not trying to be rude, but I know the individual, you do not. They gave me a deeper excuse beyond being busy this summer, I just choose not to disclose it here.
You are correct, I do not know. Hence why I am not providing explanations for him. What I am doing is judging your statements. If you are not disclosing the correct or complete information, then that is on you. We all do not know this individual but you, so I do not see a reason to ask for advice on the internet from strangers that are only familiar with your partial telling of the scenario. Anyway, your last response has a defensive tone, which usually means no real productive conversation can occur, so I will move on.
Quote from: LSThiker on April 05, 2022, 03:02:20 AMIf you are not disclosing the correct or complete information, then that is on you.
Why are you choosing to be suspicious, accusatory? I gave synoptic information that was relevant to the situation being described. I didn't feel it necessary to give personal information about the individual being discussed that had no relevance and would have been extraneous.
Quote from: LSThiker on April 05, 2022, 03:02:20 AMAnyway, your last response has a defensive tone, which usually means no real productive conversation can occur, so I will move on.
You were the first one to pull that card, a card I never did pull. The "tone" you are seeing is laden with a lot of semi-amused head shaking and eye rolling, not defensiveness. Please don't project. But I do wish you a good evening.
Alright gentlemen (and I use that term loosely), the contest has gone on long enough. Clearly mistakes were made on both sides in regards to OPs situation, but advice has been given and it is up to OP to choose to use it or not.
[EDIT: Adjustment by me -NIN]