What flight uniforms do your squadrons allow pilots to wear in hot weather, like Florida? I have seen some that allow the Corporate (Polo)OR flight suit, others flight suit only and others flight suit with gloves.
Thx!!
It really depends on the Wing, here it's usually polo for something like an O-Flight or proficiency flying, but for missions I only ever see flight suits. Others on here have said they rarely see a flight suit and always see polos. Check with your chain of command on what the local customs are.
I don't think squadrons are allowed to have extra requirements above and beyond CAPR 39-1; other than setting the uniform of the day (which is subject to equivalencies detailed in section 1), the only authority delegated to unit commanders is to prohibit the wear of optional items during formations etc. or to require the wear of optional items if provided at no cost to the member. ref. CAPR 39-1 section 2.
In other words, I don't think a squadron commander can insist on flight suits being worn for flying activities.
Quote from: fish7days on January 27, 2022, 04:50:44 PMWhat flight uniforms do your squadrons allow pilots to wear in hot weather, like Florida? I have seen some that allow the Corporate (Polo)OR flight suit, others flight suit only and others flight suit with gloves.
"Squadrons" do not allow (or disallow) uniforms. Uniform wear and authorization is done at the
national level, and absent an approved Wing supplement which is the lowest level a uniform
supplement can be issued,
any CAP uniform can be worn while flying.
Yes, if you want to fly in mess dress, have at it.
The golf shirt combination is good choice for hot weather.
A couple of wings, at one time or another, have mandated nomex, but I don't think any
of those supplements are still in effect.
Flight academies, NESA, and similar, have nationally-approved alternate uniforms for hot weather ops.
These are specific to the activity, and not for general use without prior approval.
Active approved supplements can be found here: https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/members/publications/approved-supplements-and-ois-by-region
I think a more regular question is
"What do squadrons allow members to fly in?"You see a lot of mix/match uniform combinations for aircrew and passengers, which is totally fine under CAP regulations, as you really just need to be in
a CAP uniform.
Where I see issues pop up when it comes to weather-based uniform wear is in the usual uniform discrepancies, usually in the case of people wearing whatever they feel like (and it's not in a sense of safety, it's resulting from lack of preparation or enforcement). For example: I was on the ground during glider flights over the summer. My preferred practice is to have everyone wear ABUs; take the boots off, slap on athletic shoes when you get into the aircraft; put the boots back on when you get out. But I see cadets arriving in full civilian attire, and then they're up for a powered flight. Sometimes, the O-Flight pilots are like "Alright, let's go!" Sometimes, they say "No, you need to be in a uniform." This absolutely plays into a lot of the questions on Safety Culture that
@Spam repeatedly discusses on here (and kudos, because it greatly ties in with the MEMO we just received via email about aircraft operations).
Hornet, I only read and implement the memos to commanders and FROs from @NHQ/CC, I don't draft them (grin).
BLUF: don't go all pearl-handled pistol and cravat wearin', soldier-slappin' Patton on your troops over uniforms, but allow them the freedom to fly in what makes sense - as long as they wear it right by the regs
So, the letter Hornet refers to just came out within the hour, and should be posted shortly. In essence, the tie in that I see with uniforms is a command climate issue; compliance with uniform wear isn't critical to safety of flight at all, but it is a leading indicator of other attitudes which may range, as the cadet leadership texts say, from laissez faire anything goes to full authoritarian/nazi.
In terms of airmanship then, the USAF model of participative leadership would guide us to make sure that we have full team buy in for uniforms wear that: (a) is fully compliant with 39-1 (esp. USAF style), (b) makes sense for the operational environment and (c) that recognizes the cost and availability issues for volunteer members.
Here's the tie in: poor uniform wear isn't good, but it is also a bad command climate/airmanship indicator to demand that volunteer members all purchase expensive matching outfits that are NOT laid out in an approved Supplement. (After all, if a Wing can't get a uniform Supp approved and enforce it, what else are they doing nonstandard, e.g. aircraft maintenance, which is the heart of todays Commanders Letter)?
V/r
Spam
.
Thanks for the responses. In retrospect I should probably have asked "What uniforms do you see being worn by pilots at various Squadrons".
I am rather pro-uniform but also very pro-sensibility.
Quote from: fish7days on January 27, 2022, 10:28:39 PMIn retrospect I should probably have asked "What uniforms do you see being worn by pilots at various Squadrons".
Okay, so this varies all over the place.
I see mostly polos with grey pants. That's probably the majority because it's lower cost and easy.
There are quite a few flight suits (and far more green than blue; rare for blue actually). I also see quite a few guys who look like they're 100lbs overweight to be wearing the green flight suit. A few individuals who also don't have the correct uniform items (most common is non-black/non-leather boots).
Some roll sleeves, some don't.
I have never seen anyone wear a service uniform in a CAP aircraft on the flight line. I have seen it in photos, but never in person.
Can't say I've ever seen a non-cadet wear ABUs or BDUs on an aircraft. In the summer, it's common to see cadets deblouse due to the heat.
I'm not sure I've ever seen a blue flight suit in person; plenty of people in BBDUs, but not flight suits.
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on January 28, 2022, 03:43:33 PMI'm not sure I've ever seen a blue flight suit in person; plenty of people in BBDUs, but not flight suits.
I got a great deal on a blue flight suit after I got MS and wore it to a SAREX once because I was told most of air ops wore flight suits, which was true, but I was the only one in blue. There were several others that definitely should have been in blue, but I was the only one not wearing green.
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on January 28, 2022, 03:43:33 PMI'm not sure I've ever seen a blue flight suit in person; plenty of people in BBDUs, but not flight suits.
(https://i.imgur.com/coZvRXV.png)
Blue flight suit. 1, ea.
My wing is a mixture, with the majority wearing polo, 4 seasons of the year.
Quote from: NIN on January 28, 2022, 07:09:17 PMBlue flight suit. 1, ea.
Any reason why you wear blue? You look like your are within specs to wear green if you wanted to.
Is blue somehow sub-standard?
The real question is why wouldn't members wear blue, and corporate uniforms all the time?
Quote from: Eclipse on January 29, 2022, 12:33:05 AMIs blue somehow sub-standard?
The real question is why wouldn't members wear blue, and corporate uniforms all the time?
Overall it's more economical to go with corp uniforms, as they usually stay more consistent than the AF style uniforms. Grey and white's have been around for a few decades at least, and BBDU's have been around since woodland BDU's, and will likely be around after ABU's are a thing of the past.
Ironically, the one place we've been more inconsistent is with flight suits, as not too long ago we had the bright blue smurf suits, and those oh so fashionable blaze orange suits, and now the dark blue suits, where someone who bought a green suit in the 90's and still fits it is most likely still wearing it.
Quote from: Capt Thompson on January 29, 2022, 03:47:20 PMnot too long ago we had the bright blue smurf suits, and those oh so fashionable blaze orange suits,
Those uniforms were sundowned ~20 - 30 years ago.
Ultramarine Jumpsuit was 2003, the blaze orange was gone well before I joined in 99.
The blue field uniform and blue flightsuit / jumpsuit have been essentially
the same since 2002.
Quote from: Capt Thompson on January 29, 2022, 03:47:20 PMQuote from: Eclipse on January 29, 2022, 12:33:05 AMIs blue somehow sub-standard?
The real question is why wouldn't members wear blue, and corporate uniforms all the time?
Overall it's more economical to go with corp uniforms, as they usually stay more consistent than the AF style uniforms. Grey and white's have been around for a few decades at least, and BBDU's have been around since woodland BDU's, and will likely be around after ABU's are a thing of the past.
I have a blue flight suit because the original owner ripped a big hole in it and then donated it to the squadron. I can sew so I repaired it. Nice thing about the blue Vs the green is that you can wear your squadron patch on the blue one, but not on the green as apparently the USAF doesn't do that.
Flight suits are the one case where going green is cheaper. Surplus green flight suits are all over the place and cheap, You can find them for $40 without even really trying. Used blue suits are a lot harder to find, it has to be from some non-military helicopter outfit, like police or air ambulance.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 29, 2022, 04:44:09 PMUltramarine Jumpsuit was 2003, the blaze orange was gone well before I joined in 99. The blue field uniform and blue flightsuit / jumpsuit have been essentially
the same since 2002.
My first orientation flight as a cadet was flown by what was known at the time as a "General Aviation Member". Civilian clothing and his own plane in 1974. I was wearing "Combination 4" with my two stripes actually sewn on the sleeves.
He was one of the pilots from the "Great Waldo Pepper" movie they were making at the time.
(https://motionstatereview.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/screen-shot-2014-12-29-at-4-44-06-pm.png)
Dwight pictured during his first O-Ride...
Quote from: Shuman 14 on January 29, 2022, 12:15:13 AMAny reason why you wear blue? You look like your are within specs to wear green if you wanted to.
Same reason I wear the polo, aviator, BBDU and Blazer combinations: because they are authorized uniforms for members of Civil Air Patrol. (note: this same reason is why I have green flight suit, USAF-style blues & utility)
Not every uniform is appropriate for every circumstance. Just 2 days ago I wore the polo combo to a city airport meeting where I knew that 99% of the attendees were going to GA pilots or members of the local community. No need to go full-boat USAF-style, and indeed: that might have been a little counterproductive in this particular case.
Wearing Corporate uniforms is not the sole province of the "fat & fuzzy" (so to speak). A gentleman from MAR named John Kilgallon taught me that circa 1996.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 29, 2022, 05:11:05 PM(https://motionstatereview.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/screen-shot-2014-12-29-at-4-44-06-pm.png)
Dwight pictured during his first O-Ride...
As it happens that plane was at my first airshow as a cadet. I don't know if my pilot matched up to that plane or not. He WAS a that airshow demonstrating something called the "Lomschevak" which I have no doubt misspelled. but in a different aircraft.
The aircraft pictured is actually the Canadian version of the JN4,but you have to be really nerdy to be able to spot the difference. The Canadian model was curved under the engine for better aerodynamics. On the American version its flat under the engine as it made no difference at the airspeed this plane could fly (my car is faster than this airplane) and it was a trainer anyway.
But keeping this on topic, open cockpits are good for flying in hot weather!
For flying in hot weather, it appears T-shirts & shorts are an option:
https://twitter.com/MajGenPhelka/status/1013526880237039616
Anybody know what the waiver process is?
I'm checking my sources. Hold that thought.
Quote from: UWONGO2 on January 31, 2022, 06:22:37 PMFor flying in hot weather, it appears T-shirts & shorts are an option:
https://twitter.com/MajGenPhelka/status/1013526880237039616
Anybody know what the waiver process is?
July of 2018? You're going back that far to stir it up? Geez.
Quote from: etodd on January 31, 2022, 07:10:25 PMQuote from: UWONGO2 on January 31, 2022, 06:22:37 PMFor flying in hot weather, it appears T-shirts & shorts are an option:
https://twitter.com/MajGenPhelka/status/1013526880237039616
Anybody know what the waiver process is?
July of 2018? You're going back that far to stir it up? Geez.
I didn't notice that, but the question is still relevant.
To answer the Q-
Submit a letter through the chain of command to CAP/DP outlining the reasoning for the waiver request and the proposed alternative. For example, if an encampment or a flight academy will be operating in extreme heat, indicate that temperature is forecast to be extreme, and flight academy students will wear uniform short and matching T-shirts...or something similar. Reach out to VA Wing or to any of the summer flight academy directors for examples.
Quote from: UWONGO2 on January 31, 2022, 06:22:37 PMFor flying in hot weather, it appears T-shirts & shorts are an option:
https://twitter.com/MajGenPhelka/status/1013526880237039616
Anybody know what the waiver process is?
If you're flying a sailplane. Greenhouse effect and all that.
It's in the 70-1.
Here's a part that's often ignored/forgotten as well:
9.10.2. Gliders, Tow Planes or Hot Air Balloons. CAP uniforms are not required unless directed
by a Wing Commander or higher, but clothing must identify the individual as a CAP member, be
appropriate to the operating conditions, and reflect CAP in a positive manner. Due to the greenhouse
effect of the glider canopy, the use of sun screen and a full-brimmed hat is recommended. Outer
clothing made of nylon is prohibited for CAP hot air balloon ground and flight crew members.
AC/DC t-shirts don't qualify.
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 01, 2022, 12:58:45 AMHere's a part that's often ignored/forgotten as well:
9.10.2. Gliders, Tow Planes or Hot Air Balloons. CAP uniforms are not required unless directed
by a Wing Commander or higher, but clothing must identify the individual as a CAP member, be
appropriate to the operating conditions, and reflect CAP in a positive manner. Due to the greenhouse
effect of the glider canopy, the use of sun screen and a full-brimmed hat is recommended. Outer
clothing made of nylon is prohibited for CAP hot air balloon ground and flight crew members.
AC/DC t-shirts don't qualify.
And it's any kind of CAP shirt too. Squadron shirt, Encampment shirt, NCSA shirt.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 29, 2022, 12:33:05 AMIs blue somehow sub-standard?
While I absolutely agree with you that there is nothing wrong with the blue. The question that provoked this response is exactly what the membership thinks, that the uniform is for those who "don't meet standards"
As long as we have two separate classes of uniforms, we'll have two separate cultures/classes.
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on February 01, 2022, 12:58:45 AMAC/DC t-shirts don't qualify.
<quietly puts away AC/DC shirts...>
Quote from: etodd on January 31, 2022, 07:10:25 PMQuote from: UWONGO2 on January 31, 2022, 06:22:37 PMFor flying in hot weather, it appears T-shirts & shorts are an option:
https://twitter.com/MajGenPhelka/status/1013526880237039616
Anybody know what the waiver process is?
July of 2018? You're going back that far to stir it up? Geez.
I remember seeing that a long time ago, asked around my wing but nobody had any clue what the process was so I filed it away to check into. Clearly other important tasks have kept me busy since then but then this thread popped up.
Since it's usually in the triple digits here, hot weather flying uniforms is a topic of interest especially for cadet flights where you don't want to turn them off to flying because you made them horrendously hot and uncomfortable. We mitigate the best we can, flying at sun-up, hydration, and whatnot but flying in t-shirts and shorts would really be a game changer for us. Big thanks for SarDragon for the info!
Bummer on the AC/DC shirts though.
Maybe CAP should start buying Aircraft equipped with Air Conditioning units, would that not solve the problem? ;D
Quote from: Shuman 14 on February 01, 2022, 05:01:26 PMMaybe CAP should start buying Aircraft equipped with Air Conditioning units, would that not solve the problem? ;D
The airplanes that have air conditioning usually have price tags in the one million dollar and up range.
You won't mind having your Army Reserve budget slashed to pay for that would you? ;-)
Quote from: PHall on February 01, 2022, 06:05:07 PMQuote from: Shuman 14 on February 01, 2022, 05:01:26 PMMaybe CAP should start buying Aircraft equipped with Air Conditioning units, would that not solve the problem? ;D
The airplanes that have air conditioning usually have price tags in the one million dollar and up range.
You won't mind having your Army Reserve budget slashed to pay for that would you? ;-)
Always thought air conditioning was provided by that little round vent.
Quote from: Shuman 14 on February 01, 2022, 05:01:26 PMMaybe CAP should start buying Aircraft equipped with Air Conditioning units, would that not solve the problem? ;D
One of the things that my wife finds continuously amusing is that the plane I fly 1000' over the desert in for hours on end barely has vents that work, and the plane I fly at the same height just off the beach ...... has air conditioning.
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on February 01, 2022, 07:33:04 PMQuote from: Shuman 14 on February 01, 2022, 05:01:26 PMMaybe CAP should start buying Aircraft equipped with Air Conditioning units, would that not solve the problem? ;D
One of the things that my wife finds continuously amusing is that the plane I fly 1000' over the desert in for hours on end barely has vents that work, and the plane I fly at the same height just off the beach ...... has air conditioning.
That's called Karma.
Quote from: NIN on January 28, 2022, 07:09:17 PM(https://i.imgur.com/coZvRXV.png)
Blue flight suit. 1, ea.
But what the HELL are those wings you're wearing?!?
Quote from: Mustang on February 24, 2022, 09:34:07 PMQuote from: NIN on January 28, 2022, 07:09:17 PM(https://i.imgur.com/coZvRXV.png)
Blue flight suit. 1, ea.
But what the HELL are those wings you're wearing?!?
"Bad life choices"