CAP Talk

This just received from Commander, Washington Wing...

From: owner-wawg-info@lists.sempervigilans.org [mailto:owner-wawg-info@lists.sempervigilans.org] On Behalf Of David Maxwell
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 9:50 AM
To: wawg-info@lists.sempervigilans.org
Subject: wawg-info Board of Governors Action


TEAM WASHINGTON WING





I just received the message below from National Headquarters.  Please do not read anything into it but do pass it on to your members.



DAVID E. MAXWELL, Colonel, CAP
Commander, Washington Wing


The following email is sent on behalf of Major General Richard L. Bowling, Chairman of the CAP Board of Governors.
The Board of Governors recently convened a special meeting to receive the report of investigation concerning allegations against the National Commander. Until the Board of Governors has completed it's final action, the membership of Major General Antonio J. Pineda has been suspended for a period of up to 180 days. During this period, Major General Pineda is prohibited from having contact with any member of Civil Air Patrol.  As prescribed in Section 10 of the CAP Constitution and Bylaws, Brigadier General Amy S. Courter, as National Vice Commander, will assume the duties of the National Commander during this period. Please ensure the members in the field know that the Board of Governors is doing everything within their power to ensure the continued success of the organization and asks that they continue to support their local communities as well as the goals and objectives of this great organization.



SUSAN P. PARKER
National Headquarters, Civil Air Patrol
105 S. Hansell Street
Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6332
Voice:  877-227-9142, extension 212
Fax:  334-953-4262

WOW........

Now I wish I was going to the Atlanta this week.

The fireworks should be spectacular.

WOW.

:o

In fairness however I respect CAP for taking things seriously however the investigation might go. It must be hard on TP to be told that he can have no contact with any other CAP member - that's a lot of friends to be told to stay away from.

I'm brand-spankin' new to CAP (don't even have a temp ID yet). Can someone fill me in as to why this might be happening?

Quote from: Smokey on August 06, 2007, 05:12:35 PM
WOW........

Now I wish I was going to the Atlanta this week.

The fireworks should be spectacular.

Why would the fireworks be spectacular?  Gen. Pineda won't be there.  (At least, not if I read the NHQ note correctly.)

Jack

Quote from: Walkman on August 06, 2007, 05:17:16 PM
I'm brand-spankin' new to CAP (don't even have a temp ID yet). Can someone fill me in as to why this might be happening?

In a nutshell, allegations were made that the MG had someone take a test for him in order for him to become MG.

I asked the same questions about two months ago when I joined.

 :o

Col Jack...

Well I figure the friends of TP and those who dislike him will have a heyday with this news.  And it will be intersting to see how the vote for CV will go now.

Quote from: Walkman on August 06, 2007, 05:17:16 PM
Can someone fill me in as to why this might be happening?

It's a sign that our system is still working the way it should be, and that members even at the highest levels don't get a free pass if an allegation, unfounded or not, is thrown out there.

Quote from: Smokey on August 06, 2007, 05:21:10 PM
Col Jack...

Well I figure the friends of TP and those who dislike him will have a heyday with this news.  And it will be intersting to see how the vote for CV will go now.

It pretty much kills a second term for the CC, doesn't it? 

Jack

 :o (Still speachless)

Quote from: Smokey on August 06, 2007, 05:12:35 PM
WOW........

Now I wish I was going to the Atlanta this week.

The fireworks should be spectacular.

Atlanta, Alabama they're all pretty much the same place... ;D

Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 06, 2007, 05:07:05 PMDuring this period, Major General Pineda is prohibited from having contact with any member of Civil Air Patrol.

What if Maj Gen Pineda's wife is in CAP?

"Sorry honey, you're sleeping in the guest bed tonight... by order of the BoG!"

In all seriousness... this is the organization following its process, and while it's fun to speculate (or spectate), it's ultimately not productive.

WOW, what can be said but WOW!  

I just regained my belief in the system, its been a long time since I felt that we are all equal.

Quote from: ColonelJack on August 06, 2007, 05:23:20 PM

Quote from: Smokey on August 06, 2007, 05:21:10 PM
Col Jack...

Well I figure the friends of TP and those who dislike him will have a heyday with this news.  And it will be intersting to see how the vote for CV will go now.

It pretty much kills a second term for the CC, doesn't it? 

Jack

My tell tale sign of his ability to get a next term will be how he reacts to this if he is reinstated.  It is a major kick in the sack I am sure, but again his reaction will speak novels either for or against him. 

Personally I hope they clear him because In the past 10 years there has been some act of scandal for the majority of the CC's and that is a little disturbing

The other question I never asked was

If he is cleared, will there be retaliation against the accuser?  I mean this whole allegation comes down to integrity, so if another member showed compromised integrity by an accusation against the integrity of another they should be held accountable for that just as the General is being held for an accusation.

It depedns if the accuser had malitious intent. If not then nothing would happen.

Quote from: mfd1506 on August 06, 2007, 05:42:22 PM
The other question I never asked was

If he is cleared, will there be retaliation against the accuser?  I mean this whole allegation comes down to integrity, so if another member showed compromised integrity by an accusation against the integrity of another they should be held accountable for that just as the General is being held for an accusation.

It also depends if the accuser is still in CAP anymore or not.

we already know about the malicious intent part by "he who will not be named"

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 06, 2007, 05:43:35 PM
It depedns if the accuser had malitious intent. If not then nothing would happen.

Could there be any other reason?  Isn't the original accuser the one who "took the test"?  If they didn't there is no reason to believe otherwise

I guess I'm just playing devils advocate >:D

We, the membership, know very little about the investigation and what triggered it. Yes, the original accuser was the one who claimed to have taken the test. Besides that, nothing has been put out about the investigation - and quite rightly so. And the claim was never officially released by CAP.

I wonder if this letter will be made available to the membership in general?

My wing commander just sent it out to our entire wings Email list.  Unless you are asking if they are going to post it on E-services

I know scandal is nothing new, but has there ever been a case where the National Commander has been removed?

I don't think it ever made it that far.  In the recent past there were commanders that probably would have been removed had they not resigned first.

Quote from: mfd1506 on August 06, 2007, 05:53:38 PM
My wing commander just sent it out to our entire wings Email list.  Unless you are asking if they are going to post it on E-services

Either way works. I'm waiting for my wing/cc to send it out.

No mention what so ever on the NHQ website.  They seem to be able to send blanket e-mails out announcing the General's latest video, but a simple press release of this importance can't seem to be done.

They may want the Wing/CC's to send it out to their subordinate cc's and have them dismenate to us.

Now that I'm past the shock...

As I said on another board months ago, there is undoubtedly some truth to the allegations, we can only hope that it isn't all true. Either way, the system appears to be working and we'll have to wait for the other shoe.

Possibly, but with something of this magnitude, I'd think it would be best that everybody got it at one time.

Has anyone actually seen something official, either in CAP letterhead or with a cap.gov e-mail address?  If someone wanted to make mischief, what better timing than to send a bogus e-mail.

That email is now posted on the MIWG listserver.

Ok, so what wings have recieved something?

IL

This is really good timing, Two days before national board!  Hopefully now we will be able get it behind us, one way or another.  After 54 years cadet and senior I have seen about everything in CAP.  I hope we can make this organization well again.  My trust in the system to police itself has been rewarded.

An old LTCOL

Missouri Wing just sent it out over the official Wing email announcement system.

Dr. Dave

I've gotten it through the MD wing and MER lists.

And this just in.......hot off the wire.............

The following email is sent on behalf of Mr. Rowland.

All NHQ Employees,

It is certainly with regret, that I inform you that the Board of
Governors has suspended the National Commander as a result of an
investigation until their actions are completed. 

In order to head off any rumors I want you each to be aware that this is
a standard procedure in situations like this and a final decision by the
BoG is not yet determined.  Let me make this clear, Major General Pineda
has NOT been removed and Brigadier General Courter is NOT the Acting
National Commander.  The CAP Constitution and Bylaws allows the Vice
Commander to assume the duties and responsibilities of the National
Commander in situations where the commander is not available.

I am directing each of you to not speculate or discuss this issue with
the volunteers.  If someone needs a specific answer then please refer
them to me. 

This year's annual conference theme, as you know, is Citizens Serving
Communities, and our duty is to serve these citizens and assist them in
their mission by making this their best conference ever.  While we will
have some program changes at the conference, it will go on as planned.

I have confidence that each of you, whether attending the conference or
not, will continue to do your job professionally.  It is in difficult
times like these that a person's true character shows but I know that I
have the right people on staff to get the job done and thank you all for
your support.

DON ROWLAND

Hey, wait a minute! That email came from a guy by the name of Rowland... here at GE all of our company email comes from a guy named Rowland. This is too weird...

Don Rowland is CAP's Executive Director....the guy who runs NHQ on a day to day basis.

I wonder then based on Don's Letter who wrote the original one at the start of this thread.

Hey don't rain on their parade there are some people here trying to start a really cool conspiracy theory, about communications of a conspiracy investigation.  Unique approach at the least, Don't know that I've heard of a conspiracy spinning off of a conspiracy!

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 06, 2007, 06:39:20 PM
I wonder then based on Don's Letter who wrote the original one at the start of this thread.

That was a notification to the Wing CC's that was forwarded...

News of the Farce distributed an e-mail supposedly authored by Susie Parker.

Quote from: Al Sayre on August 06, 2007, 06:41:18 PM

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 06, 2007, 06:39:20 PM
I wonder then based on Don's Letter who wrote the original one at the start of this thread.

That was a notification to the Wing CC's that was forwarded...

Yes but I wonder who wrote it send to the Wing CC's as Don said part of it was innacurate.  So I wonder if two people with two different agenda's are sending information out when everything should be coming from one source.

Both letters are from folks at National....Susie Parker ( Membership services at NHQ)  authored the one on behalf of Maj Gen Bowling of the BOG and Dow Rowland's letter was sent to the NHQ staff.

I wonder why they're not co-ordinating the release of this. 

No inaccuracy,  just slightly different wording.  Brig Gen Coulter assumes the duties that Gen Pineda would do, but she is NOT the Acting CC.  That only occurs when there is no CC as occurred when Maj Gen Wheeles resigned when Gen Pineda was the CV.  Gen Pineda then took over as ACTING CC until the Natl Board elections.

There were not claims of inaccuracy only misconception...

Mr. Rowland was making the point clear that we do not have an Acting commander only the vice commander doing her duty as the commander in the CC's absence.   So we should treat this as if the CC was out of the country, not being replaced temporarily

Dunno, but it this is the fastest growing thread I have ever seen.  In fact, I just got a warning saying two more replies were posted!!!

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 06, 2007, 06:45:44 PM
I wonder why they're not co-ordinating the release of this. 

Because this is 2 different crowds.  The NHQ Paid Staff should by all rights be treated differently than the membership as their jobs depend on them keeping quite when told to do so.

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 06, 2007, 06:45:44 PM
I wonder why they're not co-ordinating the release of this. 

They are coordinating it.  The two emails had different audiences.  The letter sent by Ms. Parker, on behalf of Maj Gen Bowling was destined for the members of the National Board.  

The email from Donald Rowland was to the NHQ staff.  In his responsibilities as Executive Director, he oversees the paid, professional staff at Maxwell, so it's entirely appropriate for him to craft and send such a message.

Quote from: Pylon link=topic=2557.msg46564#msg46564 date=

Quote from: Walkman link=topic=2557.msg46559#msg46559 date=
Can someone fill me in as to why this might be happening?

It's a sign that our system is still working the way it should be, and that members even at the highest levels don't get a free pass if an allegation, unfounded or not, is thrown out there.

Certainly restored my faith in the "Core Values" of the organization. 

I see said the blind to the deaf it's all becoming clear to me now.

Whatever the outcome, lets just hope that the proper action is taken and justice is done. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty and deserves a fair shake regardless of personal opinion. We have all been or know someone who has been falsely accused of something at some point. If guilty, action should be taken. If not guilty and intentionally falsely accused, action should be taken against the accuser.

Everyone deserves this.

Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 06, 2007, 05:19:20 PM

Quote from: Walkman on August 06, 2007, 05:17:16 PM
I'm brand-spankin' new to CAP (don't even have a temp ID yet). Can someone fill me in as to why this might be happening?

In a nutshell, allegations were made that the MG had someone take a test for him in order for him to become MG.

I asked the same questions about two months ago when I joined.

The nature of the allegation was that Pineda had someone take an Air Force End of Course test for him. I think it was Air Command and Staff College. That test in no way qualified him for the general officer position.

It's not a requirement for any CAP officer to take the course. It was an integrity issue, not a test that made him eligible for the command.

Quote from: LtCol White on August 06, 2007, 06:59:23 PM
Whatever the outcome, lets just hope that the proper action is taken and justice is done. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty and deserves a fair shake regardless of personal opinion. We have all been or know someone who has been falsely accused of something at some point. If guilty, action should be taken. If not guilty and intentionally falsely accused, action should be taken against the accuser.

Everyone deserves this.

I think that best sums up what we all should hope for.  The rest of our discussion can only be speculation and turning of the rumor mill.

Good, bad or indifferent: think what you'd like about Ray Hayden, but apparently someone listened (?)

You never know. . .

I wonder how long this investigation will take. 

Quote from: O-Rex on August 06, 2007, 07:16:30 PM
Good, bad or indifferent: think what you'd like about Ray Hayden, but apparently someone listened (?)

You never know. . .

:-X :-X :-X   OOH, OOH, OOH, HE DID IT!! HE DID IT!! HE SAID THE NAME!! HE SAID IT!! I"M TELLLLINNNNGGGG!! OOH, OOH :-X :-X

Quote from: O-Rex on August 06, 2007, 07:16:30 PM
Good, bad or indifferent: think what you'd like about Ray Hayden, but apparently someone listened (?)

You never know. . .

Fact is, we don't know if Mr. Hayden's complaint has any relation to the ROI that was sent to the National Board.  In fact, it could be something different, and the final result could be MG Pineda is told "Bad General" and is reinstated.

I like the X-Files as much as the next person... but hey... lets not jump to too many conclusions here.  (Cue Office Space pictures...)

Quote from: Sgt. Savage on August 06, 2007, 07:21:28 PM

Quote from: O-Rex on August 06, 2007, 07:16:30 PM
Good, bad or indifferent: think what you'd like about Ray Hayden, but apparently someone listened (?)

You never know. . .

:-X :-X :-X   OOH, OOH, OOH, HE DID IT!! HE DID IT!! HE SAID THE NAME!! HE SAID IT!! I"M TELLLLINNNNGGGG!! OOH, OOH :-X :-X

LOL  -  I'm still waiting for my Wing/CC to send anything down, but it will probably be a while since he is currently at Region Conference at West Point.

Actually I think he might be back.  I've already heard from my Squadron CC and he found out through the PA Wing CC.  He was surprised I knew already.

What am I missing? I see nothing in either of these letters that says anything about testing. Who's to say that something else isn't going on?

Quote from: Sgt. Savage on August 06, 2007, 07:21:28 PM

Quote from: O-Rex on August 06, 2007, 07:16:30 PM
Good, bad or indifferent: think what you'd like about Ray Hayden, but apparently someone listened (?)

You never know. . .

:-X :-X :-X   OOH, OOH, OOH, HE DID IT!! HE DID IT!! HE SAID THE NAME!! HE SAID IT!! I"M TELLLLINNNNGGGG!! OOH, OOH :-X :-X

Not a very mature response here.

Remember, IF this proves to be true, the entire organization will suffer. Not just the guilty person.

Look at what happened to United Way several years ago after their financial managment case with their director. UW lots millions in donations from people who no longer considered them a reliable entity.  

I know many folks here want to see a change however I see little to celebrate in it coming from this means. It could cause major disruption and credibility issues with it. Lets just hope they are minimal if it does.

Quote from: ADCAPer on August 06, 2007, 07:36:19 PM
What am I missing? I see nothing in either of these letters that says anything about testing. Who's to say that something else isn't going on?

It is known that a complaint about testing has been loged.  So from what we here at the bottom know that's most likely it.

At one point it was said there were three complaints under investigation. One was the testing accustation,  reportedly a complaint about the removal & replacement of Wing & Region Commanders ( possibly from the group commanders of CAWG over the firing of the CAWG CC.) and not sure what the third one was.

I think it will turn out to be a charge of inappropriate relations with an underage Cessna.

:D

How much of this investigation will ever truly see the light of day I wonder.  

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 06, 2007, 07:42:10 PM
How much of this investigation will ever truly see the light of day I wonder.  

Adverse membership actions are published with a brief summary of the reason, but privacy and confidentiality are very important cornerstones of IG investigations and much of it will not be disclosed.  Just like any other IG investigation.

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 06, 2007, 07:42:10 PM
How much of this investigation will ever truly see the light of day I wonder.  

Probably not a whole lot. The less about it that gets announced in the news, the better for our organization. We just don't need the bad press. If Pineda is guilty, we'll probably pretty much know. But it doesn't need to be hung in the town square as dirty laundry.

Quote from: LtCol White on August 06, 2007, 07:36:42 PM

Quote from: Sgt. Savage on August 06, 2007, 07:21:28 PM

Quote from: O-Rex on August 06, 2007, 07:16:30 PM
Good, bad or indifferent: think what you'd like about Ray Hayden, but apparently someone listened (?)

You never know. . .

:-X :-X :-X   OOH, OOH, OOH, HE DID IT!! HE DID IT!! HE SAID THE NAME!! HE SAID IT!! I"M TELLLLINNNNGGGG!! OOH, OOH :-X :-X

Not a very mature response here.

Remember, IF this proves to be true, the entire organization will suffer. Not just the guilty person.

Look at what happened to United Way several years ago after their financial managment case with their director. UW lots millions in donations from people who no longer considered them a reliable entity.  

I know many folks here want to see a change however I see little to celebrate in it coming from this means. It could cause major disruption and credibility issues with it. Lets just hope they are minimal if it does.

My appologies for the outburst. "The Name" has been one of controversy and so few people will even mention it... just seemed wierd to see it come up. That and... well... seemed like a good way to break the tension. :-*

That's what I thoguht, but with the fact it's the top guy I wasn't sure if it fell into that "we'll keep as much quite as possible, but you are a public face" catergories.

oh I didn't mean the whole world jsut us in the program.

Quote from: Sgt. Savage on August 06, 2007, 07:45:55 PM

Quote from: LtCol White on August 06, 2007, 07:36:42 PM

Quote from: Sgt. Savage on August 06, 2007, 07:21:28 PM

Quote from: O-Rex on August 06, 2007, 07:16:30 PM
Good, bad or indifferent: think what you'd like about Ray Hayden, but apparently someone listened (?)

You never know. . .

:-X :-X :-X   OOH, OOH, OOH, HE DID IT!! HE DID IT!! HE SAID THE NAME!! HE SAID IT!! I"M TELLLLINNNNGGGG!! OOH, OOH :-X :-X

Not a very mature response here.

Remember, IF this proves to be true, the entire organization will suffer. Not just the guilty person.

Look at what happened to United Way several years ago after their financial managment case with their director. UW lots millions in donations from people who no longer considered them a reliable entity.  

I know many folks here want to see a change however I see little to celebrate in it coming from this means. It could cause major disruption and credibility issues with it. Lets just hope they are minimal if it does.

My appologies for the outburst. "The Name" has been one of controversy and so few people will even mention it... just seemed wierd to see it come up. That and... well... seemed like a good way to break the tension. :-*

Back when I asked about "that person" the thread was locked within an hour of my asking.

While it is always entertaining to some small minds to see powerful persons fall, I want everybody to think about as couple of things:

1.  OUR reputation as volunteer members of the Air Force Auxiliary is on the line as much as General Pineda's.  Heroism and valor are precise portraits; scandal is applied with a roller.

2.  All that a suspension means is that there are reasonable grounds to believe a violation has occured.  Nothing has been proven yet.

3.  "All of the brothers are valiant, and all of the sisters are virtuous."

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 06, 2007, 07:58:05 PM
. . .
3.  "All of the brothers are valiant, and all of the sisters are virtuous."
. . .

Sounds sort of like something Al Queda would say!

(I'M JOKING)

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 06, 2007, 07:58:05 PM
While it is always entertaining to some small minds to see powerful persons fall, I want everybody to think about as couple of things:

1.  OUR reputation as volunteer members of the Air Force Auxiliary is on the line as much as General Pineda's.  Heroism and valor are precise portraits; scandal is applied with a roller.

Well yes our reputation as an orginization could be on the line but even if this is proven to be true what are the chances of this news getting out unless we let it out? 

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 06, 2007, 08:13:40 PM

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 06, 2007, 07:58:05 PM
While it is always entertaining to some small minds to see powerful persons fall, I want everybody to think about as couple of things:

1.  OUR reputation as volunteer members of the Air Force Auxiliary is on the line as much as General Pineda's.  Heroism and valor are precise portraits; scandal is applied with a roller.

Well yes our reputation as an orginization could be on the line but even if this is proven to be true what are the chances of this news getting out unless we let it out? 

Oh, it will get out.  That's what the good folks at News of the Force live for.  (Sarcasm intended.)

This might be a good seperate topic, but how often is CAP mentioned everywhere?

Here in MAWG, we don't really get mentioned in the news.  Every so often a small local paper but that's about it. 

Whether you like MG Pineda or not idle speculation is inappropraiate. If was relative to the Hayden allegations, I'm sure that the Air University and/or the Air Force Investigators would be all over it. Pineda is not the first National Commander to be accused of something inappropriate and won't be the last. His relief of Wing and Region Commanders while  excessive is allowed under the current Constitution and By-laws. And NO I am not a fan of the National Commander for Life

Having only met the general once, I have no basis for making a judgment on the man, one way or the other.

My question is one of process.  Why the BoG?  CAPR 35-7 lays out specifics for the handling of complaints of misconduct made against the National CC--they go through the National Legal Officer, not the National IG.   And the Constitution & Bylaws (I believe Article XV) put the removal of the National CC squarely in the hands of the National Board.

I don't find anything that refers to the BoG's authority to suspend the National CC, unless you go into the more ephemeral "for the good of the corporation."

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

well with the type of allegation it can be argued that his suspension till such time as these acusations can be authenticaed is "for the good of the orginization" as if this were to hit the media it would be an embarssment for the program.

Quote from: Sgt. Savage on August 06, 2007, 07:45:55 PM

Quote from: LtCol White on August 06, 2007, 07:36:42 PM

Quote from: Sgt. Savage on August 06, 2007, 07:21:28 PM

Quote from: O-Rex on August 06, 2007, 07:16:30 PM
Good, bad or indifferent: think what you'd like about Ray Hayden, but apparently someone listened (?)

You never know. . .

:-X :-X :-X   OOH, OOH, OOH, HE DID IT!! HE DID IT!! HE SAID THE NAME!! HE SAID IT!! I"M TELLLLINNNNGGGG!! OOH, OOH :-X :-X

Not a very mature response here.

Remember, IF this proves to be true, the entire organization will suffer. Not just the guilty person.

Look at what happened to United Way several years ago after their financial managment case with their director. UW lots millions in donations from people who no longer considered them a reliable entity.  

I know many folks here want to see a change however I see little to celebrate in it coming from this means. It could cause major disruption and credibility issues with it. Lets just hope they are minimal if it does.

My appologies for the outburst. "The Name" has been one of controversy and so few people will even mention it... just seemed wierd to see it come up. That and... well... seemed like a good way to break the tension. :-*

I thought it broke the tension.  In another forum Ray chuckled at the reference to Dante Pignetti from "The Lords of Discipline,"  when he was dismissed from the Corps of Cadets at the Carolina Military Institute (pseudonym for the Citadel) for a trumped-up honors violation, his name striken from the rolls, never to be spoken again.....

Unfortunately, the backlash will reverberate for some time, and this might be another dark chapter in our history.

But I think that this too shall pass, and a period of calm is on the horizon.

these things happen. . . .

Remember Tailhook? Remember the Sergeant Major of the Army who got busted for exual harassment? Assaults on female Cadets ina USAFA in 2004? Cheating scandal as USMA in the mid-70's? the CNO who committed suicide because of the investigation of an unauthorized V-device on one of his awards?  Sergeant Mckeon and Ribbon Creek? Lt. Calley and My Lai?

Organizational evolution is not always a clean, neat & painless process.

We'll get through this.

I don't know about all the rest of the CAP membership, but, from the perspective of a retired Air Force Office of Special Investigations Special Agent, MG Pineda's suspension is overdue. Not because I assume he's guilty, but because there have been too many allegations, some public, others private, made against him since he took command. As an OSI Agent, I was held to a standard of conduct that was higher than pretty much anyone else in the Air Force. Just the "appearance of impropriety" could get my credentials lifted. Why? Because, above all else, our credibility rested on how we policed ourselves. OSI is one of the premiere investigative forces in the country. They operate without command influence, as they work directly for the Air Force Inspector General. If their report contains sufficient evidence to sustain the original complaint, or other evidence that lead the BoG to suspend General Pineda, it could not only lead to his termination, but to federal criminal charges being filed. Ever since I first heard about the allegation, I've done a bit of "googling" of General Pineda. There have been several other allegations regarding his personal and professional (CAP and law enforcement) conduct that merited serious investigation prior to his assuming command of anything. Sadly, it looks like there may not have been any done. If he is indeed guilty in the current matter, someone will make an issue of those previous complaints.

General Pineda should have taken leave from his post as National Commander until the most recent allegation, which was by far the most damaging, was thoroughly investigated. Now, we find ourselves months down the road, with the Report of Investigation probably in the hands of the BoG, and he's under suspension. Believe me, if its an OSI Report of Investigation, it is thorough and accurate. CAP's credibility is damaged. Our reputation is damaged. Regardless of the outcome, how would you look at us now, if you were a Congressman being asked for funds? Does the media look at us as "just another government organization lead by a corrupted leader?" My question for every leader in CAP, from the squadron to the national level is this - will you begin considering the consequences of your actions, from the perspective of what the damage to CAP might be, before taking them?

And to those who wonder if we'll make the news - yes, we will, because they are always looking for ways to embarrass the administration and the military. Someone will open up a can of whoop-butt on CAP in the media, and we'll be on the air.

I can guarantee it will be in the next issue of Air Force Times.  You cannot keep this secret.

And I'm sure they'll call it "CAP GATE" or "CAP SCAM"

Living in a city INFAMOUS for historic corruption and mismanagement (New Orleans) in government, I can tell you that although the removal of a guilty person is good for the organization, it FEQUENTLY does a tremendous amount of damage to the integrity and effectiveness of the organization that the action was designed to benefit. This does not mean that the person should not be removed..only that there will be additional fallout and damage. This incident should serve as a reminder to all in the org and those participating here that ALL of our actions and comments DO reflect on the organization whether they are made in an official capacity or even casually on here. I hope that everyone will use this incident to reexamine their actions and consider the POTENTIAL consequences of them. Everything we say and do will be watched very closely by hungry dogs looking for more juicy meat to sink their teeth into.

While many if not most of us have made some comment about MG Pineda, it behooves us all as both officers and cadets to behave with decorum. While we may have our personal feelings, we still pay respect to the office of National Commander. The public outside of CAP will take its cues from us, we set the tone. As we rev up for the National Conference and various encampments and other activities, I think we all owe it to the organization we serve to act with dignity and honor.

Semper Vi!

Quote from: SARMedTech link=topic=2557.msg46714#msg46714 date=
While many if not most of us have made some comment about MG Pineda, it behooves us all as both officers and cadets to behave with decorum. While we may have our personal feelings, we still pay respect to the office of National Commander. The public outside of CAP will take its cues from us, we set the tone. As we rev up for the National Conference and various encampments and other activities, I think we all owe it to the organization we serve to act with dignity and honor.

Semper Vi!

Well said SARMedTech!  We're looking for some sort of justice based on the "Core Values" of the organization.  Equally applied from Senior Member to Commanding General.  The same process any of us would want if, heaven forbid, an allegation was lodged against us.  If anything, we should feel positive about the system working, and working fairly.

Quote from: ricwalters on August 06, 2007, 08:52:24 PM
...MG Pineda's suspension is overdue. Not because I assume he's guilty, but because there have been too many allegations, some public, others private, made against him since he took command. As an OSI Agent, I was held to a standard of conduct that was higher than pretty much anyone else in the Air Force. Just the "appearance of impropriety" could get my credentials lifted. Why? Because, above all else, our credibility rested on how we policed ourselves...

Very well stated, Sir.

In my opinion this really is the heart of the matter.  Leadership carries an additional burden beyond simply giving orders.  You have to conduct yourself at all times so that your reputation is above reproach.  And surround yourself with staff who conduct themselves similarly. We have too many commanders at all levels in CAP who seem to think they can separate their "CAP character" from their private character. It's not possible. To attempt it ultimately brings grief for all concerned. If you're not willing to accept the behavioral constraints imposed by a leadership position then you shouldn't accept the job.

Americans have always held our leaders to a higher standard. It may not seem entirely fair but that's the way we operate.  I like our way better than the old world method of hiding the king's indiscretions and keeping him in power "for the good of the kingdom".

Here is more OFFICIAL detail from the article on the NHQ Website


U.S.Civil Air Patrol's Board of Governors suspends CAP national commander

Pineda prohibited from having contact with any member of CAP
August 06, 2007



NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS – The U.S. Civil Air Patrol Board of Governors announced today it has suspended the CAP national commander for a period of up to 180 days.

According to Maj. Gen. Richard L. Bowling, BoG chairman, the 11-member board convened a special meeting Aug. 5 to receive the CAP Inspector General's Report of Investigation concerning allegations against Maj. Gen. Antonio J. Pineda.

The investigation was conducted by CAP Inspector General Col. James Linker after allegations were made that a CAP Florida Wing member took U.S. Air Force Air Command and Staff College tests for Pineda in 2002 and 2003. CAP senior members are allowed to enroll in Air Force professional development courses to strengthen their knowledge about the U.S. Air Force. Before becoming national commander, Pineda held the positions of Florida Wing commander and Southeast Region commander for the organization. He is a retired agent of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

"Until the Board of Governors has completed its final action, the general's CAP membership has been suspended for a period of up to 180 days," said Bowling. "During this period, Maj. Gen. Pineda is prohibited from having contact with any member of Civil Air Patrol."

Brig. Gen. Amy S. Courter, CAP national vice commander, will assume the duties of the national commander during this period, as prescribed in Section 10 of the CAP Constitution and Bylaws. This is standard procedure in situations like this according to CAP's Constitution and Bylaws.

Established in 2000, the BoG includes representatives of CAP, the U.S. Air Force and civilians involved in education, aviation and emergency management. Both the national commander and national vice commander serve on the BoG. The board meets twice per year.

Courter joined CAP's Michigan Wing in 1979 and most recently served as chair of the CAP Professional Development Committee. She served as commander of the Michigan Wing from 1999 to 2002 and as senior adviser to the CAP National Cadet Advisory Council. Courter has worked for 25 years – most recently as vice president of Information Technology -- with Valassis, a global billion-dollar marketing services company based in Livonia, Mich. While at Valassis, she expanded the IT department into a business, rather than just a support group, by developing business-to-business applications that generated revenue.

CAP National Headquarters will release the BoG's final decision regarding Pineda when that information is available.

The U.S. CAP was founded on Dec. 1, 1941, less than a week before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor brought the U.S. into World War II. CAP, the official auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force, is a nonprofit organization with more than 55,000 members nationwide. CAP performs 95 percent of continental U.S. inland search and rescue missions, as tasked by the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center, and was credited by the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center with saving 58 lives in 2006. Its volunteers also perform homeland security, disaster relief and counterdrug missions at the request of federal, state and local agencies. Members play a leading role in aerospace education and serve as mentors to the more than 22,000 young people currently participating in the CAP cadet program.

Okay, so we've established that the suspension is related to Ray Hayden's allegations....my question is why did it take so long to suspend him so that the investigation can take place?  Didn't the original allegation break well before the May meeting? 

Quote from: RiverAux on August 07, 2007, 12:59:36 AM
Okay, so we've established that the suspension is related to Ray Hayden's allegations....my question is why did it take so long to suspend him so that the investigation can take place?  Didn't the original allegation break well before the May meeting? 

The IG did an investigation and they must have found enough to either: a) justify/require a more in-depth investigation or b) found enough to remove for cause and this "no more than 180 days" period is to allow the Commander to appeal the decision.  Either way, the message makes clear the IG has delivered a report and it did not totally clear the Commander of wrongdoing.

Quote from: RiverAux on August 07, 2007, 12:59:36 AM
Okay, so we've established that the suspension is related to Ray Hayden's allegations....my question is why did it take so long to suspend him so that the investigation can take place?  Didn't the original allegation break well before the May meeting?

An investigation of this scope is certain to take 6 months to 1 year to do correctly.  Being an IG is hard work.

Tags - MIKE

Finally!  If the investigation finds the National CC guilty then can him.  If he's found innocent, then
let it be know.  But all of this speculation has done nothing but bring down moral.  Let's bring it to a conclusion and get on with running the organization.

Wow. The timing of this announcement is phenominal. Two days before the conference. I wonder if that had anything to do with it. I wonder why they didnt wait until the conference to do this. I mean they got the report from the IG Sunday, they could have waited two days. Oh well, and I was looking forward to seeing Pineda this week. oh well

Not surprising. His retirement from FDLE while under investigation for the testing accusations said volumes.

What comes next: Pineda's suspended pending National Board action. Since the boards are around the corner we'll know in a few days whether he stays or goes.

I don't expect him to resign for the good of the organization. I'm sure he's been offered that and refused it. He knows how that game's played, he did it to Rex Glasgow.

Now we get to sit back and see just how much he stacked the deck in his favor. He's replaced all the Region CC's and at least half of the Wing Kings with minions he believes he can control. With 2/3 majority needed to remove him this may be an uphill task to permanently sustain his suspension.

J Y's personal belief: There will be a majority vote to remove, but not the 2/3 majority required. The only factor that may change my gut feeling on this is if the other IG complaints find that misconduct occurred in the other 2 investigations and these are presented at the Boards as well.

The thing is that the CAP press release is so disengeous...they've obviously been investigating these charges for months but only now are suspending him, but they act like the charge just came up. 

Its like if a cop shot somebody and the department left him on patrol for 3 months before putting him on desk duty so they could investigate the shooting to make sure it was justified.

Frankly, while I've been willing to give the Nat Cdr the benefit of the doubt if its got to thie point where obviously some sort of preliminary evaluation as to the merits of the charge have been made, for the good of the organization he should have stepped aside before being suspended.

Quote from: Johnny Yuma on August 07, 2007, 03:53:17 AM
J Y's personal belief: There will be a majority vote to remove, but not the 2/3 majority required. The only factor that may change my gut feeling on this is if the other IG complaints find that misconduct occurred in the other 2 investigations and these are presented at the Boards as well.

Your math is sound, but I suspect when the dust settles a recommendation to remove by either the BoG or the USAF OSI will trump any vote from the National Board.  By Federal law, the BoG is the governing body of CAP.  And we know how influential/powerful the AF OSI is.

Question: Since the MG has been suspended from Membership, and is forbidden contact from any CAP member, could he come to CapTalk and post?  We are Cap Members, and posting is a form of contact.  I do not know for sure if he is even a member of this Forum.  Just curious.

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 07, 2007, 05:36:00 AM
Question: Since the MG has been suspended from Membership, and is forbidden contact from any CAP member, could he come to CapTalk and post?  We are Cap Members, and posting is a form of contact.  I do not know for sure if he is even a member of this Forum.  Just curious.

No.  He cannot contact any member of CAP.  The means of contact would make no difference.

Quote from: Pylon on August 06, 2007, 07:43:35 PM

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 06, 2007, 07:42:10 PM
How much of this investigation will ever truly see the light of day I wonder. 

Adverse membership actions are published with a brief summary of the reason, but privacy and confidentiality are very important cornerstones of IG investigations and much of it will not be disclosed.  Just like any other IG investigation.

I believe this publication only happens when the Membership Action Review Board (MARB) reviews an adverse action or an investigation process to ensure that proper procedures were followed; I think that is all they can rule on.

I would seriously doubt that the MARB, which consists of CAP members appointed by the Nat'l CC, would possess the authority to review any decision reached by the BOG.

If he doesn't go away, and he attends your respective wing conference, I dare someone to slip a copy of "Removal of the National Commander" on top of the papers of whoever is sitting next to him...

Quote from: RiverAux on August 07, 2007, 04:20:40 AM
The thing is that the CAP press release is so disengeous...they've obviously been investigating these charges for months but only now are suspending him, but they act like the charge just came up. 

Its like if a cop shot somebody and the department left him on patrol for 3 months before putting him on desk duty so they could investigate the shooting to make sure it was justified.

Frankly, while I've been willing to give the Nat Cdr the benefit of the doubt if its got to thie point where obviously some sort of preliminary evaluation as to the merits of the charge have been made, for the good of the organization he should have stepped aside before being suspended.

The gears of the system may be slow...but they are moving....instead of sniping at the system, for being bent, broken or subverted....and be happy that it at least is working.

I still give the National Commander the benefit of the doubt.  When the investigation is complete and the NB takes its final action....then we will know.   

Now if we can just keep the NHQ computers from sending him a renewal notice.....all would be good.  ;D

I find it kind of wierd that they've said that he may "not have contact with any CAP member" That's kind of beyond what the BoG can enforce, isn't it?

I can understand that he cannot have contact with CAP members in an official capacity, but to say he can't go play a round of golf with a friend who also happens to be Joe Q. Member from some unit, makes it sound like they're overstepping their boundaries, especially considering this, yet again, is a volunteer organization.

Perhaps the press release and letter were worded a bit misleadingly, but that really caught my attention.

So now, we all wait....

What action is Congress and the Air Force specifically those at Air University liable to take now?

Are we in danger of having our grey epulets replaced with Maroon or is AFIADL likely to remove our priviledge to enroll in its courses?

The overall effects have me a bit worried. 

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on August 07, 2007, 07:08:01 AM
What action is Congress and the Air Force specifically those at Air University liable to take now?

Are we in danger of having our grey epulets replaced with Maroon or is AFIADL likely to remove our priviledge to enroll in its courses?

The overall effects have me a bit worried. 

That's gonna suck the big one... I just enrolled in SOS.

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on August 07, 2007, 07:08:01 AM
What action is Congress and the Air Force specifically those at Air University liable to take now?

Are we in danger of having our grey epulets replaced with Maroon or is AFIADL likely to remove our priviledge to enroll in its courses?

They've already responded to the matter by issuing a policy requiring CAP members to take exams for AF PME courses on-base or under the watchful eye of a CAP-USAF'er.  End of story.

As for the timing of the suspension, you'll note that there's a whole separate reg on dealing with removal of a national commander or vice commander than for a rank and file member; where you or I would be suspended at the beginning of an investigation, the process for the top dogs is different, simply to permit the organization to function in the wake of frivolous claims.  The investigation itself is over; the BoG is now in the "what do we do about it?" phase, and clearly the findings in the IG investigation were substantive enough to cause them to suspend Pineda while they wrestle with that question.  I'm certain they didn't take the suspension lightly, and I'm sure they've been pondering the situation for some time, weighing the damage a for-cause removal would do versus letting Pineda run out the remainder of his term. 

(A note to NB'ers reading this:  there's no way the BoG is going to approve term extensions for National, Region or Wing commanders, so don't waste your--and our--time with the matter further.  PAWG/CC Applebaum, I'm talking to YOU.)

There is great pressure afoot for Pineda to now resign, rather than being forcefully removed from office. You'll note that the BoG suspended his MEMBERSHIP, not simply his position as CAP/CC, so what we're dealing with here are the membership termination proceedings of a national commander--that's how serious it is, and why the suspension can include a no-contact order; if he violates it, he's done.  I only hope the BoG is thorough in its examination of Pineda's wrongdoings and strips him, Dan Levitch and Eileen Parker of the Silver Medals of Valor they didn't earn but were awarded anyway.  If the BoG doesn't, the NEC ought to.

Having had time to think about this, I am pleased. Not so much about the decision or the allegations but, Col Linker was our wing CC and a number of people, including "the nameless one" accused everyone, including the IG, of being corrupt. I never believed it and thankfully the system has proved that just being a wing staffer or higher doesn't mean your dirty.

If he isn't allowed to make contact with any member of CAP how does he appeal his decision...

"I'm sorry Mr. Pineda, you talked to the National IG, you're done..."  ;)

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 07, 2007, 05:36:00 AM
Question: Since the MG has been suspended from Membership, and is forbidden contact from any CAP member, could he come to CapTalk and post?  We are Cap Members, and posting is a form of contact.  I do not know for sure if he is even a member of this Forum.  Just curious.

OK guys, it is time to give up my secret.

*I* am Major General Tony Pineda.  I was just hiding behind the "Nomex Maximus" handle because I wanted to hang out with the rank and file members of CAP without them knowing who I was.

And just for the record, I think orange jumpsuits and BDUs for ground crews would be a GREAT idea.  When I get back from suspension I am going to work on that one.

--Tony

If you believe the discussions outlining the way the MG got people to resign he often threatened them with this type of suspension pending lengthy investigations.  Kind of Ironic...

Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 07, 2007, 12:37:06 PM

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 07, 2007, 05:36:00 AM
Question: Since the MG has been suspended from Membership, and is forbidden contact from any CAP member, could he come to CapTalk and post?  We are Cap Members, and posting is a form of contact.  I do not know for sure if he is even a member of this Forum.  Just curious.

OK guys, it is time to give up my secret.

*I* am Major General Tony Pineda.  I was just hiding behind the "Nomex Maximus" handle because I wanted to hang out with the rank and file members of CAP without them knowing who I was.

And just for the record, I think orange jumpsuits and BDUs for ground crews would be a GREAT idea.  When I get back from suspension I am going to work on that one.

--Tony

Why not just issue the policy letter now and play catch up then...?  >:D

It would seem to me that the so-called "no-contact order" is really a pressure valve for the BoG. Should the MG have contact with any CAP member, which could be as simple as an email, and the BoG can prove it, or a member lets them know that he has contacted them, their work is done. Having violated the terms of his suspension, he would just be removed from office. Given that his suspension is for 6 months, the likelihood of some form of contact with some member seems pretty high. Having worked in the fields of employment and contract law, I can say that these sorts of conditions of suspension are fairly common. The question is really are they legal and that has been a matter of conjecture and debate among contract and employment lawyers and law makers for some time. The BoG is not a law enforcement body and therefore really does not have any legally binding authority to tell the MG who he can and cannot talk to. He may be under suspension, but his Constitutional rights still apply. Its only enforceable in that it is a term of his suspension. The only way it could be legally enforceable is if the BoG were to get some sort of restraining order or injunction against the MG barring him from contact with the entire CAP membership body. The only thing giving this thing some "legs" is that he is an appointee of a volunteer organization and not really an employee. I would be interested to see if its written into CAPs bylaws or constitution that a suspended individual shall be prohibited from contact with the membership. Even then...

What I find interesting are the differences in the original statement from Parker, the message to employees from Rowland, and the subsequent press release from National PA.

Far more information on the "why" of this is released to the press than in the original statement to members, and Rowland tells his folks basically not to discuss this with the "volunteers".

Isn't that special....

-SeattleSarge

Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 07, 2007, 02:10:59 PM
What I find interesting are the differences in the original statement from Parker, the message to employees from Rowland, and the subsequent press release from National PA.

Far more information on the "why" of this is released to the press than in the original statement to members, and Rowland tells his folks basically not to discuss this with the "volunteers".

Isn't that special....

-SeattleSarge

Most likely because people in the orginization already knew of the alegations.  but when you release to the press they'll be chomping at the bit if you don't give them all that info.  they may have gone off with even more conspiracy theories than we were yesterday. 

Quote from: SARMedTech on August 07, 2007, 01:47:42 PM
It would seem to me that the so-called "no-contact order" is really a pressure valve for the BoG. Should the MG have contact with any CAP member, which could be as simple as an email, and the BoG can prove it, or a member lets them know that he has contacted them, their work is done. Having violated the terms of his suspension, he would just be removed from office. Given that his suspension is for 6 months, the likelihood of some form of contact with some member seems pretty high. Having worked in the fields of employment and contract law, I can say that these sorts of conditions of suspension are fairly common. The question is really are they legal and that has been a matter of conjecture and debate among contract and employment lawyers and law makers for some time. The BoG is not a law enforcement body and therefore really does not have any legally binding authority to tell the MG who he can and cannot talk to. He may be under suspension, but his Constitutional rights still apply. Its only enforceable in that it is a term of his suspension. The only way it could be legally enforceable is if the BoG were to get some sort of restraining order or injunction against the MG barring him from contact with the entire CAP membership body. The only thing giving this thing some "legs" is that he is an appointee of a volunteer organization and not really an employee. I would be interested to see if its written into CAPs bylaws or constitution that a suspended individual shall be prohibited from contact with the membership. Even then...

I think this type of no-contact order is prudent to minimize the possibility of unfair command influence over witnesses, members, etc. I have heard through CAP RUMINT that there have been allegations of coercive behavior by MG Pineda, and if this in any way an aspect of the IG inquiry, it would certainly be in his best interest not to compound it by violating the boards directive regarding contact. I really doubt that it is a pretext designed to trick him into self destruction. There are various forms of this directive in use in CAP already, IG personnel investigations, etc., and it does not seem unusual in any sense except in that it applies to the National Commander. As a Florida Law Enforcement Officer, Gen Pineda should have an understanding and appreciation of the need for a voluntary no-contact order in an internal investigation. Obviously it is voluntary, but he still has recourse outside the CAP systems, including petitioning a court for redress. CAP is a Corporation, and dreads a lawsuit as much as the next guy...even baseless allegations like racism, sexism, ageism, can cause any Corporation distress, and they will often cave in to avoid the stigma.

It is interesting to note that the suspension was delayed for so long. The IG report seems to have taken a very long time to submit to the BOG, and one has to wonder if the "vox populi" of CAP membership rank and file (clearly having mutinous and murderous thoughts) may have motivated the IG, and BOG to perhaps resist the temptation to quietly dispose of the allegations by lesser means. Involving the AF as a victim of test malfeasance is a weapon that once uncaged, is hard to recapture. Democracy strikes suddenly when injustice is in the wind...

The concept that the memos sent out by various echelons of command represent some conspiracy to manipulate the membership seems unlikely to me, but probably do represent an awareness that initial memos were insufficient to satiate CAP members feelings that the higher levels of CAP by their silence had been complicit.

I say let the investigation go where it may, but silence on the part of the organization will not be an acceptable outcome, regardless of the findings of the BOG.

MAJ Lord (formerly known as CAPT Lord)

NERMA..... I get it!!

I'm not really slow but I was wondering "Why do they call you NERMA :D :D :D.

I just got it NER-MA-002....

I'm gonna be chuckling about that for the rest of the day.... NERMA!!

(falling out of chair, coffee funning out of nose, silent laughing...)

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 07, 2007, 02:45:59 PM
[Most likely because people in the orginization already knew of the alegations.  but when you release to the press they'll be chomping at the bit if you don't give them all that info.  they may have gone off with even more conspiracy theories than we were yesterday. 

That's my point...  Why not release all the information to the general membership and avoid all the conspiracy talk.  The only way to fight rumor is with facts.

It appears that three different offices are trying to deal with this without any coordination.  This is PAO/MIO 101 level stuff...

-SeattleSarge

Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 07, 2007, 03:16:46 PM

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 07, 2007, 02:45:59 PM
[Most likely because people in the orginization already knew of the alegations.  but when you release to the press they'll be chomping at the bit if you don't give them all that info.  they may have gone off with even more conspiracy theories than we were yesterday. 

That's my point...  Why not release all the information to the general membership and avoid all the conspiracy talk.  The only way to fight rumor is with facts.

It appears that three different offices are trying to deal with this without any coordination.  This is PAO/MIO 101 level stuff...

-SeattleSarge

As I said earlier, they were three different offices releasing three different memos for three different audiences.  And, the three different audiences probably do require different approaches in announcing and explaining the situation.

For example, the message from the Executive Director was written for paid employees.  Simply because you got a copy of it doesn't mean the memo was written for you.  It's not a mis-coordination of PR efforts.

Quote from: Pylon on August 07, 2007, 03:30:23 PM
As I said earlier, they were three different offices releasing three different memos for three different audiences.  And, the three different audiences probably do require different approaches in announcing and explaining the situation.

For example, the message from the Executive Director was written for paid employees.  Simply because you got a copy of it doesn't mean the memo was written for you.  It's not a mis-coordination of PR efforts.

I understand the differences in audiences, but the facts of this situation are universal.

All I'm saying is that the rank and file should have received a complete picture of the situation to prevent wild speculation.

I will disagree regarding PR mis-coordination.

-SeattleSarge

An investigation is classified and considered confidential until it's completed and even then only the basic facts are released. This investigation has gone on for some time and  the fact that MG Pineda has been suspended from office was released is because they had to to let everyone know that Pineda couldn't participate in CAP. This thing is still going on, and won't be settled for a while.

Mike McEleney 

Quote from: Mike M on August 07, 2007, 04:23:26 PM

An investigation is classified and considered confidential until it's completed and even then only the basic facts are released. This investigation has gone on for some time and  the fact that MG Pineda has been suspended from office was released is because they had to to let everyone know that Pineda couldn't participate in CAP. This thing is still going on, and won't be settled for a while.

Mike McEleney 

No, it's Privacy Act info at best - the only way you classify an IG investigation is if the subject is classified.  Unless TP was burning intel sources for Osama it's unlikely the disclosure will cause "damage to national security."

Well with FOIA it's a double edged sword.  Yes the public does have a right to the information, but it's not like they're going to publish the report and nail it to the town hall door.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 07, 2007, 12:30:46 PM
If he isn't allowed to make contact with any member of CAP how does he appeal his decision...

"I'm sorry Mr. Pineda, you talked to the National IG, you're done..."  ;)

Directly to the MARB, same as any member. He has no reason to contact the IG or anyone else. But ultimately, what the BoG says, goes.  They hold ALL the cards.

Clearly MG Pineda has been nominated for eviction from the Big Brother house. His only hope is that he wins the Power Of Veto competition and takes himself off the block. But what will America's player do? Find out Monday night on Big Brother 8...

mm, i don't think he'll win the power of veto this week.  his only hope is that not many people try to vote him out of the house. 

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 07, 2007, 05:11:08 PM
Well with FOIA it's a double edged sword.  Yes the public does have a right to the information, but it's not like they're going to publish the report and nail it to the town hall door.

Most of the report will be exempt from FOIA, anyway.  If CAP corporate is subject to FOIA, which is unclear.

I think he should be allowed to stay if he hangs upside down from a trapeze longer than anyone else in CAP while fake birds drop fake bird droppings on him.

Hey, come to think of it, isn't that really a better way to choose our next National Commander?  

CAP, or one of its various levels of command certainly can order a member not to have contact with another member...They can't throw that member in jail for breaking that order, but they can kick that person out of the organization for not following the terms of their suspension.  It doesn't have anything to do with freedom of speech or assembly. 

We're talking about the release of the investigation once it's complete. 

Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 07, 2007, 05:50:50 PM
Clearly MG Pineda has been nominated for eviction from the Big Brother house. His only hope is that he wins the Power Of Veto competition and takes himself off the block. But what will America's player do? Find out Monday night on Big Brother 8...

was that a Black Van I heard?

NEWS FLASH....

THIS JUST OUT...........

THIS OUGHT TO BE INTERESTING.......

QuoteMembers of the National Board:

Yesterday you received an email from Susie Parker that was sent on behalf of M Gen. Richard Bowling, stating that the BOG suspended me as your National Commander.

Civil Air Patrol has rules and regulations that we, as members, must abide by. Those rules are known as the Civil Air Patrol Constitution, By Laws and Regulations.  The BOG also has to abide by these same documents, and in this case, they clearly did not, as they don't have the authority to suspend or remove the National Commander.

The National Board, as stated in article 15 page 8, is the only entity that has that authority after following the procedures required by our National Legal Officer.  None of those steps were followed in this case.

I have included in this letter a copy of article 15 for you to read.  I am currently enroute to the Summer National Board Meeting to assume my duties as National Commander.

Corporations and citizens of this country are all governed by laws and regulations. We in the Civil Air Patrol are no different, especially when we are supposed to guide our cadets and members to be model citizens.

The constitution of our great country gives us the right to free speech and no one can take that away from us.   

I will see you at the National Board and we will resolve this misunderstanding with our BOG.  Thank you for your support and LET'S ROLL.

Tony Pineda     

  ARTICLE XV 

CORPORATE OFFICER SUSPENSION AND REMOVAL 

1. The National Commander or National Vice Commander may be removed from office only by a vote, in person or by proxy, of two-thirds of the authorized positions of the National Board at a duly constituted regular or special meeting of the Board. The process to consider removal shall be as follows:

a. The National Commander or National Vice Commander may be removed from office for personal misconduct involving moral turpitude which creates an appearance of serious impropriety to the public or which may discredit or embarrass the Civil Air Patrol and/or the United States Air Force. Charges of personal misconduct must be forwarded promptly to the National Legal Officer who shall immediately notify the National Commander, National Vice Commander, and Commander CAP-USAF, provide the National Commander or National Vice Commander an opportunity to respond to the allegations, and cause the charges to be investigated. Copies of the charges, responses, results of the investigation and findings shall be provided to all members of the National Board and to the Air Staff. The National Legal Officer will poll the members of the National Board, by telephone, fax and/or e-mail and, if a majority of the members of the National Board determine that there is cause for further action, the National Board shall convene to vote on removal or retention, and the subject officer shall be in a suspended status until the issue is decided by the National Board. 

b. The National Board will convene to consider removal of the National Commander or National Vice Commander for any reason if a request, including the reason for such removal, is signed by a majority of the authorized positions of the National Board and is presented to and approved as to form by the National Legal Officer. The subject officer shall be in a suspended status from the approval of the petition until the issue is decided by the National Board. 

2. The National Inspector General may be removed from office only by a majority vote of the Board of Governors. Removal may be with or without cause and is not subject to appeal.

3. Any other Civil Air Patrol corporate officer, except paid staff, shall be subject to suspension or removal from office by the incumbent of the office having the authority to appoint such officer. Removal or suspension from corporate office may be only for cause such as gross inefficiency in office or misconduct. Prior written notice and opportunity to correct must be given to a corporate officer before gross inefficiency may be used to suspend or remove from office.

Edited for length. Spacing removed - MIKE

I think the fhit just hit the san......

THE HORROR, THE HORROR  

Well, someone might just have bought his one way ticket out of the program. 

hmmm........this situation has embarrassed us all.  TP needs to resign and we need to move on.  This will hurt recruiting for sure.  Just think.....a prospective member goes to CAP.GOV and the first thing they see is "National Commander Suspended........cheating on AF test".  What a shame, for all of us!

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 07, 2007, 07:54:26 PM
Well, someone might just have bought his one way ticket out of the program. 

AGREED!

HOLY SHOWDOWN CAPMAN

(With apologies to Robin & Batman)

Ballsy...stupid.....but ballsy!

Capt/Major Lord

Clearly he is still hanging on his trapeeze and the fake birds are still doing their thing.

So who thinks he'll be the first National Commander to be removed? 

Quote from: Smokey on August 07, 2007, 07:46:58 PM
NEWS FLASH....

THIS JUST OUT...........

THIS OUGHT TO BE INTERESTING.......

QuoteMembers of the National Board:

Yesterday you received an email from Susie Parker that was sent on behalf of M Gen. Richard Bowling, stating that the BOG suspended me as your National Commander.

Smokey - where di this come from???

Tags - MIKE

TP sent it out just a bit ago....as an e-mail to the National Board..

  Date Stamp from original e-mail ......Tuesday, August 07, 2007 11:32 AM

Trust me...I didn't make this up...it was forwarded

Kind of reminds me of Nixon when he decided to defy the Supreme Court.   We all know how that turned out.

Quote from: SoCalCAPOfficer on August 07, 2007, 08:04:38 PM
Kind of reminds me of Nixon when he decided to defy the Supreme Court.   We all know how that turned out.

This is true, but will the National Board allow him to do resign before they get rid of him?

Interesting is that in sending this he has violated the terms of his suspension. Seems like we will see the 2nd Battle of Atlanta this week.
The bad thing is that action like this only makes for more interest of the newsmedia to rake us over the coals as and organization.

Quote from: Smokey on August 07, 2007, 08:03:33 PM
TP sent it out just a bit ago....as an e-mail to the National Board..

  Date Stamp from original e-mail ......Tuesday, August 07, 2007 11:32 AM

Trust me...I didn't make this up...it was forwarded

Smokey where'd you get it from?

Quote from: LtCol White on August 07, 2007, 08:06:01 PM
Interesting is that in sending this he has violated the terms of his suspension. Seems like we will see the 2nd Battle of Atlanta this week

yeah, at least this time Atlanta won't burn  :P

Quote from: Smokey on August 07, 2007, 08:03:33 PM
TP sent it out just a bit ago....as an e-mail to the National Board..

  Date Stamp from original e-mail ......Tuesday, August 07, 2007 11:32 AM

Trust me...I didn't make this up...it was forwarded

The copy that I just received was sent to the Wing by the Wing CC.  Subject line: NATIONAL COMMANDER WILL ATTEND THE NATIONAL BOARD MEETING

Hmmm...I kinda wish I went to the National Boards this year...this should be worth the price of admission...  :o

Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 07, 2007, 08:09:00 PM
Hmmm...I kinda wish I went to the National Boards this year...this should be worth the price of admission...  :o

I should hurry down there and set up a popcorn consession.  I'd make a killing... ;D

Forget the popcorn concession...

I'm going to sell bullet proof vests.......

Quote from: Smokey on August 07, 2007, 08:11:27 PM
Forget the popcorn concession...

I'm going to sell bullet proof vests.......

How about popcorn and bulletproof vests.  Food and protection much better for business.

Set up a T-Shirt stand with "Viva Los Estados Unidos Civil Air Patrol!" shirts... and wet rolls of toilet paper...  >:D

2b or not 2b.....that REALLY is the question

Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 07, 2007, 08:12:28 PM
Set up a T-Shirt stand with "Viva Los Etas Unis Civil Air Patrol!" shirts... and wet rolls of toilet paper...  >:D

:D :D :D

Why is he going to Atlanta?  If this were me or any other "average" member......sending out that email like he did and attending a CAP activity while suspended would get us terminated.  I suspect he is going just to get his TERM EXTENSION passed.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 07, 2007, 08:12:28 PM
Set up a T-Shirt stand with "Viva Los Etas Unis Civil Air Patrol!" shirts... and wet rolls of toilet paper...  >:D

Umm..your spanish needs work. You kinda raped spanish and french. Its Estados Unidos

^yeah, saw that, and fixed it :)

Seems to me he believes the BOG can't suspend him therefore the admonishment to not have contact with CAP members is invalid.


This is gonna be better than the Hatfields & McCoys.....

I'm so sorry I didn't get a ticket.

Quote from: Smokey on August 07, 2007, 08:16:08 PM
Seems to me he believes the BOG can't suspend him therefore the admonishment to not have contact with CAP members is invalid.


This is gonna be better than the Hatfields & McCoys.....

I'm so sorry I didn't get a ticket.

Seriously, its gonna be a major embarassment for the organization in front of USAF and everyone else

This will be epic,  

Red Sox vs. Yankees
Luke vs Darth Vader

now

MG Pinede vs BoG & National Board

Quote from: LtCol White on August 07, 2007, 08:17:46 PM

Quote from: Smokey on August 07, 2007, 08:16:08 PM
Seems to me he believes the BOG can't suspend him therefore the admonishment to not have contact with CAP members is invalid.


This is gonna be better than the Hatfields & McCoys.....

I'm so sorry I didn't get a ticket.

Seriously, its gonna be a major embarassment for the organization in front of USAF and everyone else

I bet the Air Force will be the ones to do it too.  They'll say, "Tony give us your stars and get out!"

I'll say one thing, even as a n00b to CAP, this incident is certainly keeping me from getting any work done today... :)

At this point, he should resign from his position as National Commander.  Whether he did it or not, he should be big enough to realize how badly this will reflect on
CAP and take the high road.

He could even say something like:  "I maintain my innocence concerning the incident in question.  However, because it is interfering with the smooth operation of the Civil Air Patrol, I hereby step down from command."

^agreed

Quote from: davedove on August 07, 2007, 08:23:14 PM
At this point, he should resign from his position as National Commander.  Whether he did it or not, he should be big enough to realize how badly this will reflect on
CAP and take the high road.

He could even say something like:  "I maintain my innocence concerning the incident in question.  However, because it is interfering with the smooth operation of the Civil Air Patrol, I hereby step down from command."

Which would put him in a better position to say "Hey, I was innocent, but I did it for the good of the organization!" if they find him innocent. Would make him look better. Lot easier to get people on your side when you can show you're the victim.

He'll never resign.  he's sought the power and now that he's got it he won't give it up easily.  they'll have to vote to remove him.  and even those who are "loyal" to him will see that what he's doing will reflect badly on us and they'll vote to remove him.

At this point, I wouldn't be suprised to tune in CNN and see someone leaving the convention in handcuffs courtesy of Atlanta PD for trespassing... While providing interesting drama, this is definitely becoming a major embarassment no matter which side of the fence you are on.

NEWS FLASH:  Congress declares trade embargo against the Civil Air Patrol.  The CIA initiated coup has failed miserably.

"The National Commander's body guards were just too much...," one operative reports.

In retaliation, the National Commander threatens to unleash Archer upon innocent civlians, and without approval from the National Board, promotes himself to Supreme Allied Commander of the Brazilian and US Civil Air Patrol's.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 07, 2007, 08:30:59 PM
NEWS FLASH:  Congress declares trade embargo against the Civil Air Patrol.  The CIA initiated coup has failed miserably.

"The National Commander's body guards were just too much...," one operative reports.

In retaliation, the National Commander threatens to unleash Archer upon innocent civlians, and without approval from the National Board, promotes himself to Supreme Allied Commander of the Brazilian and US Civil Air Patrol's.

lol   :D

Keyboard.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 07, 2007, 08:30:59 PM
NEWS FLASH:  Congress declares trade embargo against the Civil Air Patrol.  The CIA initiated coup has failed miserably.

"The National Commander's body guards were just too much...," one operative reports.

In retaliation, the National Commander threatens to unleash Archer upon innocent civlians, and without approval from the National Board, promotes himself to Supreme Allied Commander of the Brazilian and US Civil Air Patrol's.

I knew he had other plans for us.

All kidding aside (and that was pretty darned good, jimmydeano), there is going to be a major PR hit for CAP no matter which way this goes.

General Pineda was correct in what he said regarding the CAP Constitution, except for one thing -- the article quoted only describes removal of the National CC.  It does not address suspension of the CC, except parenthetically.  There was nothing in the article as I read it that expressly reserves the right of membership suspension to the National Board.

Besides which, if he'd looked a little farther, he'd have seen that the Board of Governors is the ultimate control body of CAP, as anything that's passed by the NB or NEC has to be approved by them as well.  I think the BoG was within its rights to suspend the general -- and he just had a major hissy-fit about it and reacted.

If he shows up in Atlanta and tries to attend the meeting, will he indeed be escorted out of the facility?  There's no way in hell the NB will allow him to preside over the meeting, is there?  With the cloud of suspicion and taint hanging over him?  This would make Barry Bonds seem squeaky-clean.

There are two ways this can go -- Gen. Pineda does the intelligent thing and at least stands aside (or, better, steps down), or he tries to wrest control of the meeting and shows what he is really all about.

As if we didn't all know already.

Jack

But, I don't see anywhere in the CAP regulations regarding membership termination or suspension where it gives BoG authority to suspend the National Commander either....There does seem to be a hole in our regulatory fabric that he just might sqeeze through...  See CAPR 35-1 (6) for suspension procedures...it doesn't say who can suspend the national commander.

This is making CAP look like a freaking banana republic.  He very obviously has no regard for what id best for the organization or he would either (1) resign if the allegations are true, or (2) obey the suspension and use whatever means are available to him under the regs in a non-public way.

MG Pineda's message to the National Board says the BoG doesn't have authority to remove him as national commander, but it seems to me one of the official emails that I saw yesterday said that he was NOT being removed from office. The news release on the NHQ Web site says his CAP membership is suspended, so maybe people are talking apples and oranges here.

Pineda's email cited Article V of the CAP Constitution and Bylaws, which is available through the NHQ Web site for those who wish to try to decipher it.

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_111303084248.pdf

At first glance, the language on the BoG's authority vs. the specific authority assigned to the National Board seems contradictory.

I am not sure that the issue should be viewed as the removal or suspension of the National Commander, rather the suspension of a MEMBER.

Hypothetically, if a member (coincidentally, the Nat'l CC) was caught in the commission of a felony and plead guilty to the charge, wouldn't her/his membership be terminated regardless of position held?

I think this should be no different than ANY member being suspended pending an investigation.

Quote from: Chaplaindon on August 07, 2007, 08:48:00 PM
I am not sure that the issue should be viewed as the removal or suspension of the National Commander, rather the suspension of a MEMBER.

Hypothetically, if a member (coincidentally, the Nat'l CC) was caught in the commission of a felony and plead guilty to the charge, wouldn't her/his membership be terminated regardless of position held?

I think this should be no different than ANY member being suspended pending an investigation.

Well said! 

What about the removal of Wing commanders? Is that not a Region Commander duty?

Tit for Tat? Was this allowed? Does the Wing, or Region commander handle Unit CC's, where there are Group CC's in the chain?

I suppose.. the National could lean on Region .. but.. these firings are very similar.

The whole thing is just a major distraction.

If any one of us sent out such an email via our wing distribution you can bet we'd be facing consequences.

Makes me wonder what heat the Wing CC's that were placed by TP are going to have to face.. certainly there is a lot of animosity in the wind, feelings of cronyism, etc..

A big, BIG, uphill battle..  

Nope, something's not right. ..and it's starting from the top.

You have to set an example, and keeping from controversy is one of them. Sure, there's cranks out there that level accusations, but there sure seems to be an awful lot of stuff being leveled here. From all kinds of directions. Really, really hard to ignore. The Board of Governors decided something had to happen, they returned faith in the system. Lets see what happens next. Does the faith reign? ..or will the now seemingly renegade National CC get his reign?

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 07, 2007, 08:18:27 PM
This will be epic,  

Red Sox vs. Yankees
Luke vs Darth Vader

now

MG Pinede vs BoG & National Board

More Like Lord Voldemort and the Death Eaters vs Harry Potter...

Now, you could say that the constutional clause on removal of the national commander can be used as a suspension since a supension is just a TEMPORARY removal from office.  But, even if that is the case, it doesn't give the BoG authority to suspend the National Commander.

Quote from: CaptLord on August 07, 2007, 08:51:08 PM

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 07, 2007, 08:18:27 PM
This will be epic,  

Red Sox vs. Yankees
Luke vs Darth Vader

now

MG Pinede vs BoG & National Board

More Like Lord Voldemort and the Death Eaters vs Harry Potter...

That too.

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 07, 2007, 02:45:59 PM

Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 07, 2007, 02:10:59 PM
What I find interesting are the differences in the original statement from Parker, the message to employees from Rowland, and the subsequent press release from National PA.

Far more information on the "why" of this is released to the press than in the original statement to members, and Rowland tells his folks basically not to discuss this with the "volunteers".

Isn't that special....

-SeattleSarge

Most likely because people in the organization already knew of the allegations.  but when you release to the press they'll be chomping at the bit if you don't give them all that info.  they may have gone off with even more conspiracy theories than we were yesterday. 

I have had members that don't keep up with the politics ask me what this is all about, so no, I don't think you can say the people in the organization know the facts.  The people that keep up with this stuff on boards like this know, but I'd say that's a minority of the 50,000+ members.

To insure the facts were all out and that there was no attempt by top leadership to hide anything, I think they should have issued one comprehensive release to the membership and the NHQ staff.

That comment in Rowland's e-mail about not talking to the volunteers really struck me the wrong way.  It was probably not intended to slight the volunteer members, but the way it struck me was "keep quite, don't tell them anything, and I'll let them know what they need to know".   How many paid staffers are there at NHQ, and how many DUES PAYING members are there that give their time and money to CAP???

Oh, he'll come to Atlanta alright... he will round up 500 of his followers who are pilots and they will get all the CAP aircraft and they will all swarm over the convention center towing banners that read, "FREE ANTONIO!!!"  and "SAVE OUR GENERAL"

And then he will round up a large number of misguided cadets and form the largest ground team ever seen. They will form a traffic control perimeter around the convention center all wearing their green BDUs and orange vests. CAP ground team vans will slowly circle the convention center as a show of force.

Well I would say that the MG's email shows me what type of an arrogant SOB he is.  I already knew it, that just confirmed it.

I agree with the rest of the posters who say he should step down for the good of CAP.  If he insists on not letting the system 'work', and shows up in Atlanta, all U-kno-what is going to break loose.  The PR damage that he is going to do is unsettling.

I hope with the release of this email that the powers that be are prepared for his arrival... and REMOVAL permanently.  He just violated the conditions of his suspension.

Personally I think he is going for a scorched earth campaign.  He is going to try and take as many people OR the whole organization down as much as possible...

Nothing is worse than a scorned woman.. well the MG is about to show how a jilted lover lets loose!

Mark my words.

Quote from: RiverAux on August 07, 2007, 08:51:44 PM
Now, you could say that the constutional clause on removal of the national commander can be used as a suspension since a supension is just a TEMPORARY removal from office.  But, even if that is the case, it doesn't give the BoG authority to suspend the National Commander.

So the National Commander is immune from the MARB? Creates a bad precedent. If the top man is immune, then where does the accountability fall?

The general should accept it. He would have it far easier if they find him not guilty.

This could be a watershed event for current governing structure of the organization.  It seems pretty evident that the last re-write of the constitution and by-laws meant for the BOG's to be the primary body responsible for the governance and direction of the "Corporation" while the "elected" volunteer member command structure represented the membership.  Does the BoG back down?  Is there any way to rid the organization of corrupt leadership?  I guess we will see.

It would seem that MG Pineda feels fairly confident in the members of the NB that he has put in place.  Bwahhahahahah >:D

In the CAP Constitution I saw a reference to 10 USC 9447, so I looked it up. Seems like anything that conflicts with these is going to be tough to support:

(a) Governing Body. - The Board of Governors of the Civil Air
   Patrol is the governing body of the Civil Air Patrol...

(e) Powers. - (1) The Board of Governors shall, subject to
   paragraphs (2) and (3), exercise the powers granted to the Civil
   Air Patrol under section 40304 of title 36.

     (2) Any exercise by the Board of the power to amend the
   constitution or bylaws of the Civil Air Patrol or to adopt a new
   constitution or bylaws shall be subject to approval by a majority
   of the members of the Board.

     (3) Neither the Board of Governors nor any other component of the
   Civil Air Patrol may modify or terminate any requirement or
   authority set forth in this section.

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/10C909.txt

The issue is that the Nat Cdr is treated differently and has a separate regulation for their termination and it isn't clear that the other regulations that apply to CAP members do apply here.  

Much as I hate to say it in this case, Pineda seems to have a point and that the BoG doesn't have the authority to suspend him.  

I do believe that it should be the BoG rather than the NB that should have the authority to select and remove the National Commander...its just not that way now.

Yes, but there doesn't appear anything to prevent the BoG from passing a 1 line Constitutional Amendment stating that:  "The BoG has the right to exercise any authority granted to any subordinate body in any matter related to the membership or operation of the Civil Air Patrol."

Our buddy posted this on his site as coming from Pineda...

QuoteMembers of the National Board,After speaking with the National Legal Officer, we have agreed that it is in the best interest of Civil Air Patrol to allow the process to continue and for me not to show up at this summer's National Board.I will abide by the letter of suspension from Maj Gen Bowling. Have a great conference and I'll see you all soon.

Tony Pineda

Our buddy certainly isn't a paragon of virtue, but does seem to have good sources, so I tend to believe this.  

It seems to me that any provision of the CAP Constitution that limits the authority of the BoG violates 10 USC 9447(e)(3). I don't see how the CAP Constitution can trump federal law.

Quote from: mfd1506 on August 06, 2007, 05:42:22 PM
The other question I never asked was

If he is cleared, will there be retaliation against the accuser?  I mean this whole allegation comes down to integrity, so if another member showed compromised integrity by an accusation against the integrity of another they should be held accountable for that just as the General is being held for an accusation.

I wouldn't think so.  People can complain about another person and make accusations till they're blue in the face.  It usually takes more than just words to get someone suspended, especially in that high of a position.

Now if that evidence is false or otherwise malicious, then yes, I would think the accuser could face some form of punishment for that.

Okay, Here is my proposal for a New CAP Constitutional Amendment:

Vote of No Confidence

A) In that it appears that the highest levels of Command have no direct Air Force or Governmental Oversite, and,

B) That the Board of Governors could potentially (!)  be manipulated, fired, or pressured to resign via Improper command influence,

C) A regulation shall be drafted requiring a hearing for any CAP Member occupying a position of Command or special trust when a Petition, submitted by 3% of CAP members subordinate to said member, is submitted to the National Board. This regulation is intended to provide the membership with recourse in the event of a usurpation of power that cannot be addressed through conventional protocols.

D) Upon a presentation of the Defendants defense of the specific allegations made in the body of the petition, a popular vote of the subordinate general membership shall be held to determine whether the defendant shall remain in Command or special position of trust.

E) Upon a negative finding, the member shall not be deprived of CAP membership, but will be prohibited from holding any office, command, or position of special trust in CAP, BOG or as a civilian employee of either of these.

F) BOG or any other CAP members attempting to circumvent or deprive the general membership of their right to a binding vote of no confidence shall be subject to dismissal.

There, that should do it!

Capt/Major Lord

NEWSFLASH:

Maj. Gen Pineda traveled to Atlanta today, but stopped short of going to the hotel.

He's at the airport now, making arrangements to head home.

More on CAPblog shortly: http://capblog.typepad.com

- Midway Six

Capt. Lord, just not really feasible....no way for members to have access to enough information to make a sensible decision. 

Quote from: SJFedor on August 07, 2007, 06:49:33 AM
I find it kind of wierd that they've said that he may "not have contact with any CAP member" That's kind of beyond what the BoG can enforce, isn't it?

I can understand that he cannot have contact with CAP members in an official capacity, but to say he can't go play a round of golf with a friend who also happens to be Joe Q. Member from some unit, makes it sound like they're overstepping their boundaries, especially considering this, yet again, is a volunteer organization.

Perhaps the press release and letter were worded a bit misleadingly, but that really caught my attention.

So now, we all wait....

How would you enforce that? What if he does hang out with a CAP member? What are they gonna do? He is a volunteer.

Quote from: flyguy06 on August 07, 2007, 09:32:57 PM

Quote from: SJFedor on August 07, 2007, 06:49:33 AM
I find it kind of wierd that they've said that he may "not have contact with any CAP member" That's kind of beyond what the BoG can enforce, isn't it?

I can understand that he cannot have contact with CAP members in an official capacity, but to say he can't go play a round of golf with a friend who also happens to be Joe Q. Member from some unit, makes it sound like they're overstepping their boundaries, especially considering this, yet again, is a volunteer organization.

Perhaps the press release and letter were worded a bit misleadingly, but that really caught my attention.

So now, we all wait....

How would you enforce that? What if he does hang out with a CAP member? What are they gonna do? He is a volunteer.

Very easy to enforce...if he violates it he is kicked out of CAP. 

Ok,

But its not like he is going to go to jail or have to pay a fine or anything.

Of course not.  No one ever said CAP had any authority to do that, but any organization has the right to enforce its own rules by kicking somebody out if they don't follow them.

Since I know our buddy is reading...I'm not aware of any ban, I just prefer not to give you any more publicity than I have to. 

Quote from: MidwaySix on August 07, 2007, 09:31:49 PM
NEWSFLASH:

Maj. Gen Pineda traveled to Atlanta today, but stopped short of going to the hotel.

He's at the airport now, making arrangements to head home.

More on CAPblog shortly: http://capblog.typepad.com

- Midway Six

::waiting::   :o

Also on MidwaySix's site, the personnel action from NHQ formally appointing General Courter the Acting National Commander of CAP.

Even if General Pineda did go to the conference (which it now appears he won't), he would not be chairing anything -- Gen. Courter is, for the moment, National CC.

Jack

This whole episode is UGLY ... "goofy-grape" epaulet ugly (and then some)!

... in fact, I wonder if MG Harwell would want his old job back ... ???

Quote from: ColonelJack on August 07, 2007, 10:18:28 PM
Also on MidwaySix's site, the personnel action from NHQ formally appointing General Courter the Acting National Commander of CAP.

Even if General Pineda did go to the conference (which it now appears he won't), he would not be chairing anything -- Gen. Courter is, for the moment, National CC.

Jack

Pretty cool little puzzle

"He who should not be named" now says the members of the NB that are "pawns" of the suspended CC will walk out of the meeting when Gen. Courter goes up to gavel it into session.  (I don't see why -- she didn't suspend him, the BoG did.)

I am not sure about the veracity of all that, but I would say this -- any wing or region commander who makes such a display should immediately be removed  from their positions (and as acting CC, Gen. Courter can do that, apparently) for insubordination.  You just don't do that to a general officer, especially one whose authority to chair the board meeting and command CAP has been formalized by NHQ Personnel Actions.

It might mean the National Board meeting wouldn't happen, if enough members "walked out" that a quorum didn't remain, though.

Just a thought.

Jack

I've got a question about this whole thing. Since Brig Gen Courter is now the acting CC of CAP, what happens if she is not re-elected as the CV of CAP? Will she give up her duties as acting CC to the new CV? Or will she remain the acting CC with a new CV until the 180 days are up, and then give up her post?

Quote from: Horn229 on August 07, 2007, 10:28:36 PM
I've got a question about this whole thing. Since Brig Gen Courter is now the acting CC of CAP, what happens if she is not re-elected as the CV of CAP? Will she give up her duties as acting CC to the new CV? Or will she remain the acting CC with a new CV until the 180 days are up, and then give up her post?

Well, I am not sure about much here, but do you really think the "floor nominations" that were supposed to be made will now happen?  Or the term extensions, that have been voted down twice already, will pass?  I doubt Gen. Courter will be denied a second term -- but it does make an interesting question. 

Jack

http://capblog.typepad.com/capblog/2007/08/gobsmacked.html (http://capblog.typepad.com/capblog/2007/08/gobsmacked.html)

What a bloody farce this has turned out to be.  We couldn't make this stuff up if we tried...

-SeattleSarge

Quote from: Al Sayre on August 07, 2007, 09:17:28 PM
Yes, but there doesn't appear anything to prevent the BoG from passing a 1 line Constitutional Amendment stating that:  "The BoG has the right to exercise any authority granted to any subordinate body in any matter related to the membership or operation of the Civil Air Patrol."

1.1. Powers of the Board. Under 36 U.S.C. 40304, the Board is directed to exercise the power
granted to CAP as a Federally chartered non-profit corporation, including the power to:
1.1.1. Adopt and amend a constitution, bylaws, and regulations by approval of a majority of the
members of the Board of Governors.
1.1.2. Adopt and alter a corporate seal.
1.1.3. Establish and maintain offices in the District of Columbia and the States, territories, and
possessions of the United States to conduct its affairs.
1.1.4. Acquire, own, lease, encumber, and transfer property as necessary to carry out the purposes
of the corporation.
1.1.5. Sue and be sued.
1.1.6. Do any other act necessary and proper to carry out the purposes of the corporation.1.2. Compliance with 10 U.S.C 9447 . Neither the Board of Governors nor any other component of
CAP may modify or terminate any requirement or authority set forth in 10 U.S.C. 9447.
2 AFI10-2702 27 FEBRUARY 2001
2. Principal Tasks. The Board of Governors is responsible for the operation of CAP as a Federally chartered
non-profit organization. As described in the CAP Constitution and Bylaws and related governing
documents, as its principal tasks, the Board of Governors:
2.1. Reviews and determines long-range plans and programs for CAP.
2.2. Directs improvements in CAP programs, financial positions, legislative relations (consistent with
the Anti-lobbying Act, 18 U.S.C. § 1913), asset allocations, and membership development, among
other things. The Board may also consider current and projected policies relating to the effectiveness
of CAP support to the Air Force, the nation, and the overall financial and volunteer wellbeing of CAP
as authorized under public law and this instruction.
2.3. Serves as a pool of expert advisors, either individually or in groups, to various CAP activities.
The individual Board members provide this service at their convenience and subject to their availability.
2.4. Appoints the CAP Executive Director.
2.5. Oversees the CAP Inspector General Program.
2.6. Oversees the activities of the CAP Adverse Action Review Board.
2.7. Oversees and may assign action items to the CAP Committee structure.
2.8. Revises the CAP Constitution and By-laws in accordance with section 1.1.1. of this instruction.
2.9. Inquires into any and all aspects of the CAP volunteer and CAP Corporate activities as it sees fitas authorized under public law.
3. CAP Relationship with the Air Force . As a nonprofit corporation, CAP has a unique relationship

Quote from: Smokey on August 07, 2007, 08:11:27 PM
Forget the popcorn concession...

I'm going to sell bullet proof vests.......

Vanguard has already ordered 1000 "Fat Tony" T shirts for sale at the conference.

Quote from: ColonelJack on August 07, 2007, 10:24:58 PM
"He who should not be named" now says the members of the NB that are "pawns" of the suspended CC will walk out of the meeting when Gen. Courter goes up to gavel it into session.  (I don't see why -- she didn't suspend him, the BoG did.)

I am not sure about the veracity of all that, but I would say this -- any wing or region commander who makes such a display should immediately be removed  from their positions (and as acting CC, Gen. Courter can do that, apparently) for insubordination.  You just don't do that to a general officer, especially one whose authority to chair the board meeting and command CAP has been formalized by NHQ Personnel Actions.

It might mean the National Board meeting wouldn't happen, if enough members "walked out" that a quorum didn't remain, though.

Just a thought.

Jack

Good point.   IIRC, as acting National Commander following the ouster resignation of Maj. Gen. Wheless, the ACTING commander (Br. Gen. Pineda) made a couple of changes in the make-up of the NEC.  What would/could preclude the acting National Commander (Br. Gen. Courter) from relieving the command of those who choose to walk out in protest on the spot and appoint new members to the NEC?

I would not be surprised if we see a change in the structure of NHQ as a result of TP's actions and possibly even have provisions for more USAF control up at the top to take action in the event of similiar situations in the future to prevent a CC from feeling he is all powerful and immune.

Is it just me or is this entire episode starting to play out like a cold war period cloak and dagger saga involving a deposed 3rd world dictator?

Quote from: LtCol White on August 08, 2007, 12:38:51 AM
I would not be surprised if we see a change in the structure of NHQ as a result of TP's actions and possibly even have provisions for more USAF control up at the top to take action in the event of similiar situations in the future to prevent a CC from feeling he is all powerful and immune.

Is it just me or is this entire episode starting to play out like a cold war period cloak and dagger saga involving a deposed 3rd world dictator?

That might not be a bad thing especially if something like this ever happened again. 

Quote from: LtCol White on August 08, 2007, 12:38:51 AM
I would not be surprised if we see a change in the structure of NHQ as a result of TP's actions and possibly even have provisions for more USAF control up at the top to take action in the event of similiar situations in the future to prevent a CC from feeling he is all powerful and immune.

Actually the eason we now have a BofG is that about 15 years ago, the SECAF wanted to fire a Nation Commander and found out she didn't have the authority. That National Commander is still active and working on the National level.

I bet we see changes now

Quote from: LtCol White on August 08, 2007, 02:17:04 AM
I bet we see changes now

But how long will it take till we see it?  It will take so long to debate the changes we many not see anything new for at least a year.

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 08, 2007, 02:22:02 AM

Quote from: LtCol White on August 08, 2007, 02:17:04 AM
I bet we see changes now

But how long will it take till we see it?  It will take so long to debate the changes we many not see anything new for at least a year.

No, I think these changes will come from the top. SECAF CAPUSAF. I think the kind of changes they will make will be ones that CAP doesn't have a say in since it would involve their ability to take direct action under certain conditions.  I don't think it will take very long for them to come up with this if they already haven't.  But we'll have to wait and see.

Tune in again! Same CAP time! Same CAP channel!!! ( Sorry Batman. Had to steal that one)

...and does it mean that we'll get our money back for the TPUs???

;)

oh yay...

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=5eb4c409-386a-424c-b2f9-0e1ec6888624 (http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=5eb4c409-386a-424c-b2f9-0e1ec6888624)

Quote from: JC004 on August 08, 2007, 02:55:57 AM
oh yay...

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=5eb4c409-386a-424c-b2f9-0e1ec6888624 (http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=5eb4c409-386a-424c-b2f9-0e1ec6888624)

At the bottom of the page, it was listed as "urgent"  Great. . . . .

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 08, 2007, 03:01:23 AM

Quote from: JC004 on August 08, 2007, 02:55:57 AM
oh yay...

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=5eb4c409-386a-424c-b2f9-0e1ec6888624 (http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=5eb4c409-386a-424c-b2f9-0e1ec6888624)

At the bottom of the page, it was listed as "urgent"  Great. . . . .

came through on my daily "Civil Air Patrol" Google news alerts

and here...12 pages, 2,800+ views and still going strong...

Quote from: jaybird512 on August 08, 2007, 02:53:42 AM
...and does it mean that we'll get our money back for the TPUs???

;)

Sorry but No. There isn't a cure for TPU yet but I hear the vaccine is very close to being completed.  >:D

Quote from: JC004 on August 08, 2007, 03:02:39 AM

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 08, 2007, 03:01:23 AM

Quote from: JC004 on August 08, 2007, 02:55:57 AM
oh yay...

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=5eb4c409-386a-424c-b2f9-0e1ec6888624 (http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=5eb4c409-386a-424c-b2f9-0e1ec6888624)

At the bottom of the page, it was listed as "urgent"  Great. . . . .

came through on my daily "Civil Air Patrol" Google news alerts

and here...12 pages, 2,800+ views and still going strong...

Probably the fastest growing thread here on CapTalk.  Mods, any verification?

Quote from: LtCol White on August 08, 2007, 12:38:51 AM
I would not be surprised if we see a change in the structure of NHQ as a result of TP's actions and possibly even have provisions for more USAF control up at the top to take action in the event of similiar situations in the future to prevent a CC from feeling he is all powerful and immune.

Is it just me or is this entire episode starting to play out like a cold war period cloak and dagger saga involving a deposed 3rd world dictator?

I think that would be a good thing.  The current structure is broken beyond repair.

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 08, 2007, 03:04:40 AM
Probably the fastest growing thread here on CapTalk.  Mods, any verification?

To my personal recollection, yes, this seems to be the fastest growing and viewed thread in CAPTalk history.  But our statistician buffs would have to verify that; I don't know what the real answer is there.

Quote from: Pylon on August 08, 2007, 03:39:30 AM

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 08, 2007, 03:04:40 AM
Probably the fastest growing thread here on CapTalk.  Mods, any verification?

To my personal recollection, yes, this seems to be the fastest growing and viewed thread in CAPTalk history.  But our statistician buffs would have to verify that; I don't know what the real answer is there.

Man, 225 posts in about 34 hrs. WoW!! :o :o :o

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 08, 2007, 03:43:05 AM
Man, 225 posts in about 34 hrs. WoW!! :o :o :o

To be honest, I wish more people would voice their piece.  225 is great... where are the rest of the supposed 60,000?   :D

Quote from: Pylon on August 08, 2007, 03:39:30 AM

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 08, 2007, 03:04:40 AM
Probably the fastest growing thread here on CapTalk.  Mods, any verification?

To my personal recollection, yes, this seems to be the fastest growing and viewed thread in CAPTalk history.  But our statistician buffs would have to verify that; I don't know what the real answer is there.

Think about it, folks.

This is arguably the largest fecal matter impact in CAP in several years. Why wouldn't it have an explosive posting rate.

WSFA TV in Montgomery, AL has posted a brief article on this:

http://www.wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=6901484&nav=0RdE

-SeattleSarge

Other than some glaring errors in the report. . . .
They did an ok short blurb about us.

WSFA is the local NBC affiliate.  I think we can expect the story to start moving now. 

Might be a good idea for PAO's to consider how to deal with interest from their local media contacts.

Just thinking out loud...

-SeattleSarge

I would think that at some level or another as far as perhaps new recruits, etc are concerned that the PAO's are going to need to do a certain amount of spin/damage control. As we have already seen, this is making some new members and prospective members nervous, as it would me. I would definitely put of joining if I were totally new to the organization because I would sort of be wondering, is this thing going down the tubes, especially not knowing if this is the way things always are and not having weathered CAP political storms before.

Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 08, 2007, 04:01:47 AM
WSFA is the local NBC affiliate.  I think we can expect the story to start moving now. 

Might be a good idea for PAO's to consider how to deal with interest from their local media contacts.

Just thinking out loud...

-SeattleSarge

Easy, refer all media inquries to National Headquarters....

Did the government tank when articles of impeachment were brought against Clinton?

We'll get through this.

Simply referring them to National is probably the proper thing to do , but.. I would certainly want to add along with that, "it's not affecting day to day operation of our local unit", that we are still carrying out the CAP mission, etc. Because that is what counts in the beginning and end.

This isn't the first crummy National CC and it probably won't be the last. To me, there are simply just way too many allegations being leveled in the direction of TP that something had to be done, many members have indeed lost faith in the system. The whole thing, with constantly bringing up the same desires to the BoG and "stocking it" by firing Wing CC's via Witch Hunt investigations just sucks.

In the case of CAWG, I can't say I was particularly fond of Col. Nelson's hands off management style, I think it did way more damage than good in may of CAP's roles, letting people essentially run loose at the helm, I was pretty disappointed when the year extension was granted, last Fall- but the way this transpired, was just not right, either.

Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 08, 2007, 04:01:47 AM
WSFA is the local NBC affiliate.  I think we can expect the story to start moving now. 

Might be a good idea for PAO's to consider how to deal with interest from their local media contacts.

Just thinking out loud...

-SeattleSarge

We spoke about this at our staff meeting tonight. All inquiries to Squadron Members to be turned to Myself or the CC. Our response will be, "This in no way affects our local operations and if you would like further information, this is how you contact NHQ/PA"

Well it is going to be interesting how this plays out now since TP sent out his poisen pen email.  In short he already violated the 'No Contact' condition of his suspension.  This is nothing more than a reflection of the mans arrogance and abuse of power.  CAP does NOT need that type of attitude, in particular from the top.

I see this news as getting more legs and will make the national rounds a bit.  In particular if TP again trys to do something to usurp the suspension order.

I also agree with other posters that this will not effect the squadrons on the local level.  We seem to work in a relative vaccum from the day to day HQ crap.  We have our rules and regs, we wear what we are told.  Otherwise what do we get from HQ on a week to week basis?  Nada!  So this is a blip on the radar.

At least TP turned his butt around and did not try and crash the Atlanta shindig.  That would have become pretty ugly.

IMPORTANT THOUGHT HERE***
Personally I think the rank and file should get together and create a 'petition' with a letter basically decalring our no confidence in the MG.  Regardless of the outcome of this investigation now.  his actions.. perceived and executed over the last couple of years and his attitude that he exibited by his recent actions (albeit he reversed himself) show that he is not the leader that the CAP rank and file wish to serve under.

Perhaps an email campaign to HQ would be in order.

I am going to compose a letter and send it to HQ.  I will post it later today when I get home from work.

I find it interesting that this story has been "out" for almost 24 hours and nobody in Georgia Wing has sent out an official announcement to anybody that I know of.  I learned of it here and verified it finally on the National website, but being a squadron commander, it seems strange that I wasn't and haven't been notified, especially with the Conference being in our back yard (Atlanta)..  It would be easy for me to be at the Conference and have somebody stick a mike in my face and my response would be "you gotta be s--ting me!!"  Well, since my moniker is on the page, I must watch what I say, but, makes one wonder..

THE HORROR, THE HORROR (Colonel Kurtz , Apocalypse Now)

Now don't get me wrong, but there are some similar plot twists: "I love the smell of napalm in the morning."  Colonels to crazy assassins, we are all going to get hurt in this mess it is a stain and a Black EYE for the Tradition of CAP regardless of the outcome.

But understand this the word Apocalypse means; (Greek; -translit. APOKALYPSIS, literally: the lifting of the veil), is a term applied to the disclosure to certain privileged persons of something hidden from the mass of humankind.

WE NEED TO CLEAN OUR HOUSE AND REBUILD FROM THE FOUNDATION,WE ARE TOO FAT AND COMPLACENT, LETS RETURN TO OUR US AIR FORCE ROOTS.

I think that this drama will have an impact on the local units.  I fully expect cadets in my unit to bring this topic up at our next Moral Leadership session.  I suspect that there will be lots of questions and feelings about following the rules with honor and integrity.  I won't try to sanitize any of this.  That would be doing a tremendous disservice to the cadets.

I also believe that this episode shows that there are some pretty major gaps in the accountability processes and protocols on the national level.  I would hope that NHQ would be proactive in this matter by appointing a special panel of organizational ethics and leadership experts from outside CAP to investigate and recommend wholesale changes, with a special eye towards top to bottom lines of accountability.

I don't think this reflects on CAP as an organization, but rather to the corporate structure. But here I'm biased since I was a member when USAF controlled CAP and staffed it to the Wing level. But I notice the Board of Governors did not boot the National Commander, only suspended him allowing the investigation/appeal to go forward. So to date MG Pineda has not been found guilty, but only that probable cause exists.

Anyone here anything new on Testing-gate? Is the National Board moving up the start of the meeting to make a ruling?  And someone did mention that the letter MG Pindea sent did violate the ruling of the BoG so could that work against him? 

Quote from: BillB on August 08, 2007, 12:25:42 PM
I don't think this reflects on CAP as an organization, but rather to the corporate structure. So to date MG Pineda has not been found guilty, but only that probable cause exists.

But, his latest e-mail or actions didn't help his case any way. :)

Quote from: FARRIER on August 08, 2007, 01:34:50 PM

Quote from: BillB on August 08, 2007, 12:25:42 PM
I don't think this reflects on CAP as an organization, but rather to the corporate structure. So to date MG Pineda has not been found guilty, but only that probable cause exists.

But, his latest e-mail or actions didn't help his case any way. :)

I don't think it helped either.

13 pages, 3257 views and counting.  Wow.

I say by tomorrow we'll have a new National Commander one way or another.

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 08, 2007, 02:06:47 PM
I say by tomorrow we'll have a new National Commander one way or another.

For the sake of CAP that would be the best thing that could happen.  Like ripping off the tape, a little pain involved but it's quick and then it's over.

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 08, 2007, 02:06:47 PM
I say by tomorrow we'll have a new National Commander one way or another.

and I will be accepting resumes today for folks who wish to apply for my staff, or to replace wing commanders.  Line starts over there -->  and bring me snacks.

Quote from: ELTHunter on August 08, 2007, 02:13:38 PM

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 08, 2007, 02:06:47 PM
I say by tomorrow we'll have a new National Commander one way or another.

For the sake of CAP that would be the best thing that could happen.  Like ripping off the tape, a little pain involved but it's quick and then it's over.

Yup quick and easier than anything else.

Quote from: FARRIER on August 08, 2007, 01:34:50 PM

Quote from: BillB on August 08, 2007, 12:25:42 PM
I don't think this reflects on CAP as an organization, but rather to the corporate structure. So to date MG Pineda has not been found guilty, but only that probable cause exists.

But, his latest e-mail or actions didn't help his case any way. :)

The thing that gets me is, how can a guy get through a couple of years as National CC without knowing that federal law gives the BoG absolute power over CAP? It took me, a mere 1LT, what, less than an hour to find that information on the Web?

It sounds like the National Legal Officer straightened him out, however.

Quote from: Pylon on August 08, 2007, 03:46:20 AM

Quote from: RogueLeader on August 08, 2007, 03:43:05 AM
Man, 225 posts in about 34 hrs. WoW!! :o :o :o

To be honest, I wish more people would voice their piece.  225 is great... where are the rest of the supposed 60,000?   :D

I don't think there can be an organization of our size and structure without having problems of this magnitude at least once.  Whether or not the BoG actually had the authority to suspend the National Commander is rather a mute point; some part of our structure should have that  authority and the BoG is best suited for it, and apparently the Maj Gen's legal team agrees.

However this gets resolved (and I have no doubts that it will get resolved) this fiasco (is there a better word?) by no means affects nor should detract from the work that is done by Wings, Groups, and Units.   Just look at the other news headlines on National's site:  "S. Dakota Wing helps monitor forest fire", "Hiker found in good condition after search involving Colo. Wing", Nebraska Wing member receives Spaatz award", "Alaska Wing participates in emergency medic training", and "S. Dakota aircrew responds to AFB call for help".   

We're doing great things and we have some really good people in key positions and a process that, while it takes time, does work.    Stuff like this does make life interesting, doesn't it?   :D

Quote from: JC004 on August 08, 2007, 02:14:56 PM

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 08, 2007, 02:06:47 PM
I say by tomorrow we'll have a new National Commander one way or another.

and I will be accepting resumes today for folks who wish to apply for my staff, or to replace wing commanders.  Line starts over there -->  and bring me snacks.

I've always wondered about the motives of someone who would WANT that job. Now I know: it's snacks!  ;D

Quote from: West_Coast_Guy on August 08, 2007, 02:58:44 PM

Quote from: JC004 on August 08, 2007, 02:14:56 PM

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 08, 2007, 02:06:47 PM
I say by tomorrow we'll have a new National Commander one way or another.

and I will be accepting resumes today for folks who wish to apply for my staff, or to replace wing commanders.  Line starts over there -->  and bring me snacks.

I've always wondered about the motives of someone who would WANT that job. Now I know: it's snacks!  ;D

you can't eat stars, but when you have arbitrary promoting powers, people will feed you

Another story in this morning's Miami Herald.  Again, very brief.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/broward/story/196071.html

I think we're all thinking the same thing regarding local inquiries;

1. No, it's not impacting local readiness or operations.

2. Here is the number for National HQ Public Affairs.

-Seattle Sarge

Ok, so it's getting out there.  Thougth it wouldn't take this long.  So new question, how long till it makes CNN?

Good morning all.   New guy here who has been following all of this very closely and I would love to follow the video stream if someone would kindly post the link.   Thought I'd go ahead and sign up as opposed to lurking as a guest.

I am already fielding all manner of questions from my members and even some parents over all of this goings on with TP and am certainly very interested in seeing if/who walks out of the opening session.

Gene Jackson
Group I CC
VAWG

ps.. I was wondering why I kept getting all these snacks on my desk at the airport :)

Quote from: genejackson on August 08, 2007, 03:17:33 PM
Good morning all.   New guy here who has been following all of this very closely and I would love to follow the video stream if someone would kindly post the link.   Thought I'd go ahead and sign up as opposed to lurking as a guest.

I am already fielding all manner of questions from my members and even some parents over all of this goings on with TP and am certainly very interested in seeing if/who walks out of the opening session.

Gene Jackson
Group I CC
VAWG

ps.. I was wondering why I kept getting all these snacks on my desk at the airport :)

Welcome.  Video info for now:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2339.msg47177#msg47177 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2339.msg47177#msg47177)

On a positive note, Gen Courter is one of the finest we have ever had in a management leadership role, she is savvy and smart, and we should all get behind her and support any and all changes she makes to create a sense of duty and honor this organization should have.

What are each of you willing to give to her to start a fresh and not just talk about bad stuff but live for what we are trained to do?

She comes from the corporate culture and world, I believe we have turned  a corner in the legacy of CAP.

just my thoughts... and my first post

Thanks, JC004.   I saw that link but it was only showing something about Oshkosh.  I guess time to be more patient and let them update the video link.  /gene

Quote from: sark9s on August 08, 2007, 03:20:47 PM
On a positive note, Gen Courter is one of the finest we have ever had in a management leadership role, she is savvy and smart, and we should all get behind her and support any and all changes she makes to create a sense of duty and honor this organization should have.

What are each of you willing to give to her to start a fresh and not just talk about bad stuff but live for what we are trained to do?

She comes from the corporate culture and world, I believe we have turned  a corner in the legacy of CAP.

just my thoughts... and my first post

Right now she's just acting CC hopefully they'll make it official and remove TP.

It is important, through this process, that our members, media, and the public realize our organization is still performing our mission....

http://www.wmcstations.com/Global/story.asp?S=6901673

We're still training, we're still flying, we're still doing the work.

-SeattleSarge

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 08, 2007, 03:28:45 PM

Quote from: sark9s on August 08, 2007, 03:20:47 PM
On a positive note, Gen Courter is one of the finest we have ever had in a management leadership role, she is savvy and smart, and we should all get behind her and support any and all changes she makes to create a sense of duty and honor this organization should have.

What are each of you willing to give to her to start a fresh and not just talk about bad stuff but live for what we are trained to do?

She comes from the corporate culture and world, I believe we have turned  a corner in the legacy of CAP.

just my thoughts... and my first post

Right now she's just acting CC hopefully they'll make it official and remove TP.

Courter '08 '07

Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 08, 2007, 03:29:10 PM
It is important, through this process, that our members, media, and the public realize our organization is still performing our mission....

http://www.wmcstations.com/Global/story.asp?S=6901673

We're still training, we're still flying, we're still doing the work.

-SeattleSarge

Now this is the sort of story that should get out when the TP hits the big media market. 

Is this whole incident likely to bring us in closer to the AF or push us farther away from it (permanently AUX OFF?)
Or will our relationship with the Air Force be greatly impacted by all this?
Might be a niave question, but Im in the dark when it comes to things like this.

Second question:
Who are the Seniorish folks on the BOG?

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on August 08, 2007, 04:05:20 PM
Who are the Seniorish folks on the BOG?

CAP BoG List (http://level2.cap.gov/visitors/organization/cap_structure/board_of_governors_list.cfm)

Maj. Gen. Richard L. Bowling, CAP  was a former national commander (after Bobick).
Lt. Gen. Nicholas B. Kehoe, USAF  is the chairman.

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on August 08, 2007, 04:05:20 PM
Is this whole incident likely to bring us in closer to the AF or push us farther away from it (permanently AUX OFF?)
Or will our relationship with the Air Force be greatly impacted by all this?
Might be a niave question, but Im in the dark when it comes to things like this.

Second question:
Who are the Seniorish folks on the BOG?

Regardless of which way the wind blows, I think that eventually things will come together, and the family feud will cease.  the move to (U.S) Civil Air Patrol, Inc. is just part of the ebbs & flows of a work-in-progress, and another stage in our evolution.  Just at "this is not your Father's Civil Air Patrol," the ones our sons & daughters inherit won't be ours either.  But it's up to use to leave them a legacy of something to build upon...

http://www.capsfuture.com/ (http://www.capsfuture.com/)   :)

I think BG Courter will make an excellent National Commander let's just hope the National Board and the BoG feel the same way.

According to WFSA, in Alabama, "a top military commander, based in Montgomery, is suspended"

All I want to know is when can we get rid of the corporate uniforms, now that the news says we're in the military? Oh, and where's my meal card?


http://www.wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=6901484&nav=0RdE (http://www.wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=6901484&nav=0RdE)

Quote from: Sgt. Savage on August 08, 2007, 05:17:47 PMOh, and where's my meal card?

It's in the mail.  Just keep checking your mailbox and maybe someday it'll arrive.   >:D ;) :D

Let the Air Force take over.  Give us an AF General :)

I say let Commander CAP/USAF be the one in charge.  Plus the current guy is from my home town.

Quote from: CAPLAW on August 08, 2007, 08:34:21 PM
Let the Air Force take over.  Give us an AF General :)

They can't unless the official opinion about CAP only being the USAF auxiliary when only conducting USAF missions.  Congress would have to change us back to the way we used to be.  If we are always commanded by the USAF then we could be concidered the USAF's full time auxiliary.

I'm not against it happening but it would require a major change at the Congressional level.

Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 08, 2007, 08:35:45 PM
I say let Commander CAP/USAF be the one in charge.  Plus the current guy is from my home town.

Be careful what you ask for ...  ;)

Quote from: CAPLAW on August 08, 2007, 08:34:21 PM
Let the Air Force take over.  Give us an AF General :)

It might get us augmentation missions...   ::)

^  Or it might get us some unforeseen negative results.

IF CAP was under the Air Force as it was in the 50's through 70's I think it would be an improvement. In the first place there wouldn't be regulations designed only to protect the corporation. CAP could get back to the basics of SAR, assistance to USAF, cadet programs with added USAF support and AE. Look at all the cadet special activities that are no longer there.
But chances of USAF taking back control of it's Auxiliary are slim because the Air Force is a lot smaller organization, and there would be a lack of funding to support CAP activities. CAP/USAF would have to staff down to the Wing level, which wouldn't happen in the downsizing USAF.

Quote from: BillB on August 08, 2007, 09:56:30 PM
IF CAP was under the Air Force as it was in the 50's through 70's I think it would be an improvement. In the first place there wouldn't be regulations designed only to protect the corporation. CAP could get back to the basics of SAR, assistance to USAF, cadet programs with added USAF support and AE. Look at all the cadet special activities that are no longer there.
But chances of USAF taking back control of it's Auxiliary are slim because the Air Force is a lot smaller organization, and there would be a lack of funding to support CAP activities. CAP/USAF would have to staff down to the Wing level, which wouldn't happen in the downsizing USAF.

Not to mention the fact that they'd have to change the USC.

The latest Via Google News Updates:
http://www.jacksonville.com/apnews/stories/080807/D8QT37480.shtml (http://www.jacksonville.com/apnews/stories/080807/D8QT37480.shtml)

Quote
Commander of Civil Air Patrol suspended during test-taking probe

By PHILLIP RAWLS
Associated Press Writer


MONTGOMERY, Ala. - The Civil Air Patrol has suspended its national commander, Maj. Gen. Antonio "Tony" Pineda, after investigating allegations that another patrol member took Air Force exams for him.

Maj. Gen. Richard Bowling, chairman of the patrol's board of governors, announced the board's suspension Tuesday. He said the suspension resulted from a special board meeting Sunday, where members received an inspector general's report concerning allegations against Pineda. The report was not made public.

Bowling said the suspension would be for up to six months while the board determines its final decision in the matter. During the suspension, Pineda is prohibited from contacting patrol members, Bowling said.

Pineda said Wednesday the suspension is unjustified and he has hired a lawyer to fight it.

"I've never cheated on any test in my life," he said in a telephone interview.

The Civil Air Patrol's vice commander, Brig Gen. Amy S. Courter, assumed the duties of national commander during Pineda's suspension.

The Civil Air Patrol is an Air Force auxiliary that is best known for conducting volunteer search-and-rescue missions throughout the nation. Its other operations include aviation programs for young people. It has 55,000 volunteers throughout the country, including the commander, and a paid staff of 100.

The Civil Air Patrol's inspector general announced on Dec. 21 that an investigation had begun of allegations that another patrol member took exams for Pineda in 2002 and 2003 that allowed Pineda to complete courses at the Air Force's Air Command and Staff College. The college and the patrol's national headquarters are at Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery.

The investigation began after another patrol member, Lt. Col. Raymond Hayden of Tamarac, Fla., complained that Pineda had assigned him to take his exams.

Contacted Wednesday, Hayden said he spent three hours with the inspector general during the investigation and was not surprised by the suspension. "I knew it was coming down," said Hayden, who is no longer a member of the patrol.

Pineda is a retired special agent of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and lives in Plantation, Fla. He said Hayden filed the complaint to retaliate against him for not stopping a patrol investigation of Hayden.

Pineda joined the Civil Air Patrol in 1988, becoming Florida Wing commander and then Southeast Region commander. He became the national commander in July 2005. A patrol news release announcing his selection two years ago noted that he was a graduate of the Air Force's Air Command and Staff College.

Emphasis mine.

O.K, I dont want to throw another log on the fire but this is to good to sit on. Sources within CAP are telling me that Pineda is trying to retire quietly and 'KEEP HIS STARS" >:D  This would be a slap in the face to all members of CAP.

I know that rumor is being promolgated by "he whose name shall not be spoken."

Even, if true, I wouldn't see it as a "slap in [MY] face."

In many ways, I think --for the good of the organization, its missions, and the need for healing (presuming --hypothetically-- the yet-to-be-proven allegations against CAP/CC are ultimately substantiated)-- a quick and relatively quiet ending to this chapter of CAP history would be beneficial for all.

Endless email battles, litigation, legal expenses and public embarassment may --ultimately-- be worse than letting someone "retire" (as though that term really means anything in CAP) with their "stars."

Insofar as I can recall General Harwell, whose actions brought about the "goofy grape" epaulets, retired with his.

An early, peaceful end to this painful mess would be to my liking. I am not out for any blood.

Quote from: Chaplaindon on August 09, 2007, 12:18:42 AM
I know that rumor is being promolgated by "he whose name shall not be spoken."

Even, if true, I wouldn't see it as a "slap in [MY] face."

In many ways, I think --for the good of the organization, its missions, and the need for healing (presuming --hypothetically-- the yet-to-be-proven allegations against CAP/CC are ultimately substantiated)-- a quick and relatively quiet ending to this chapter of CAP history would be beneficial for all.

Endless email battles, litigation, legal expenses and public embarassment may --ultimately-- be worse than letting someone "retire" (as though that term really means anything in CAP) with their "stars."

Insofar as I can recall General Harwell, whose actions brought about the "goofy grape" epaulets, retired with his.

An early, peaceful end to this painful mess would be to my liking. I am not out for any blood.

In as much this tyrant has ruined what little credability CAP had left. He whos name shall not be spoken, "Ray Hayden" was held hostage  by this TYRANT and threatened as well just like he threatened and coerced those who got in his way with membership action if they didnt do as he said. I believe in that good book you refer to that ye shall obey the laws of the land, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Well he did it to others and now he is having it done unto him. Where was the Chaplain CORP when he was wing commander and terrorizing Cadets and senior members? Those of us in the trenches stood up for the truth in good faith and did not hide behind those for the sake of protecting our membership, it's volunteer for what it's worth. Dont judge those who are honest and forthright for I can sleep at night with a clear conscience.

Quote from: RAZOR on August 09, 2007, 12:36:27 AM

Quote from: Chaplaindon on August 09, 2007, 12:18:42 AM
I know that rumor is being promolgated by "he whose name shall not be spoken."

Even, if true, I wouldn't see it as a "slap in [MY] face."

In many ways, I think --for the good of the organization, its missions, and the need for healing (presuming --hypothetically-- the yet-to-be-proven allegations against CAP/CC are ultimately substantiated)-- a quick and relatively quiet ending to this chapter of CAP history would be beneficial for all.

Endless email battles, litigation, legal expenses and public embarassment may --ultimately-- be worse than letting someone "retire" (as though that term really means anything in CAP) with their "stars."

Insofar as I can recall General Harwell, whose actions brought about the "goofy grape" epaulets, retired with his.

An early, peaceful end to this painful mess would be to my liking. I am not out for any blood.

In as much this tyrant has ruined what little credability CAP had left. He whos name shall not be spoken, "Ray Hayden" was held hostage  by this TYRANT and threatened as well just like he threatened and coerced those who got in his way with membership action if they didnt do as he said. I believe in that good book you refer to that ye shall obey the laws of the land, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Well he did it to others and now he is having it done unto him. Where was the Chaplain CORP when he was wing commander and terrorizing Cadets and senior members? Those of us in the trenches stood up for the truth in good faith and did not hide behind those for the sake of protecting our membership, it's volunteer for what it's worth. Dont judge those who are honest and forthright for I can sleep at night with a clear conscience.

Oh sorry ...

Hi Ray ...

Passing Judgement already, Judge ye not lest ye be judged. I am not Ray!! For a chaplain based on this post, well I will leave it at that. If you want to continue this PM Me.

QuoteOh sorry ...

Hi Ray ...

(http://www.doctorivan.com/sfn/pointandlaugh.gif)

About MG Pineda quietly retiring while I'm sure everyone here can tell I'd much rather see him removed for the good of the program, I would accept it if he retired.  While I feel it would be horrible that he'll remain a constellation, it would bring about a much quicker end to this chapter in our orginization so that we can move forward and preserve in peace what this program is really about.