Cadets & Pregnancy

[Rotorhead]

It is funny, we have to 2b a female cadet if she becomes pregnant but if your gay it's  OK!.   And yes I know some people think there is a difference but when I asked why we kick female cadets out for pregnancy, I WAS TOLD IT IS A MORALE ISSUE.

Not "funny." No correlation at all.

By the way, did you mean "MORALE or "MORAL?"

[jimmydeanno]

It is funny, we have to 2b a female cadet if she becomes pregnant but if your gay it's  OK!.   And yes I know some people think there is a difference but when I asked why we kick female cadets out for pregnancy, I WAS TOLD IT IS A MORALE ISSUE.

Pregnancy, Marriage, Joining the Military are all actions in which the cadet is participating in adult behavior - and IMO should not be a cadet.  Unfortunately this doesn't prohibit unmarried cadets with children from being cadets - but I think it should.

So, my thoughts about it are that it has nothing to do with morality but the cadets decision to participate in the adult world - so they should be treated accordingly and removed from cadet status.

[Nathan]

It is funny, we have to 2b a female cadet if she becomes pregnant but if your gay it's  OK!.   And yes I know some people think there is a difference but when I asked why we kick female cadets out for pregnancy, I WAS TOLD IT IS A MORALE ISSUE.

Pregnancy, Marriage, Joining the Military are all actions in which the cadet is participating in adult behavior - and IMO should not be a cadet.  Unfortunately this doesn't prohibit unmarried cadets with children from being cadets - but I think it should.

So, my thoughts about it are that it has nothing to do with morality but the cadets decision to participate in the adult world - so they should be treated accordingly and removed from cadet status.

Eh, this is going off-topic, but I think that if that were the case, then the cadet age cut-off would have been made 18. After all, I'm 20. I've smoked a cigar outside of uniform. I could get sued. If I wanted to, I could go to a strip club. I'm in college now. And, legally, I could get married, or join the military and die for my country. Am I less of an adult because I am a cadet (for the next two months, at least)? I COULD do these things, after all. Am I considered a child because I am choosing not to get married, or join the military?

I don't think so. These are all "adult activities", but I like to think I'm a decent cadet and did a lot of good as a cadet in the three years since I became an official adult. Keep in mind that "adulthood" differs greatly by culture. Many countries legally allow "adult" activities by US standards to what we consider "children." Some states allow children to get married at 16 or 17 (with parental consent). And, ironically, one of CAP's missions in cadet programs is to, well, help cadets transition from kid to adult. Wait, except in THAT way, right?

Personally, I'm against kicking cadets out of cadethood due to pregnancy. I used to make the same arguments you did, but after a while, I had to start questioning why I could support someone making a choice (quote unquote) to be gay but not make the choice to have a child, or at least to have sex. It's not really CAP's place to dictate behavior outside of CAP as long as it's not illegal.

And anyone who knows me knows I would be rabidly against lowering the cut-off age for cadethood.

[Strick]

Yes MORALE          Thats what I was told.

[Rotorhead]

If I wanted to, I could go to a strip club.

Don't you?

[Rotorhead]

Yes MORALE          Thats what I was told.

Well, then your post is even more senseless. If it was a "moral" issue, you might have a point.

[lordmonar]

It is funny, we have to 2b a female cadet if she becomes pregnant but if your gay it's  OK!.   And yes I know some people think there is a difference but when I asked why we kick female cadets out for pregnancy, I WAS TOLD IT IS A MORALE ISSUE.

For the record.

We no longer kick out female cadets for getting pregnant.....we have not since 2001.

[swamprat86]

We no longer kick out female cadets for getting pregnant.....we have not since 2001.

According to CAPR35-3, it is still automatic termination of cadet membership.

SECTION A - CADETS
3. Causes To Terminate Cadet Membership:
a. Automatic Loss of Membership:
(1) Reaching 21st birthday. National Headquarters
will automatically transfer cadets to senior status when the
cadets leach their 21st birthdays (unless membership expires
during the same month).
(2) Marriage.
(3) Joining the active duty Armed Forces. The term
"active duty Armed Forces" does not include members in the
National Guard or Reserves who are not on extended active
duty.
(4) Payment of any kind made by bad check to
National Headquarters if such check is not redeemed within 60
days of proper notification.
(5) Failure to maintain a satisfactory academic school
record.
(6) Loss of the status "admitted for permanent
residence" by an alien member other than by acquiring
citizenship to the U.S.
(7) Failure to renew.
(8 ) Voluntary resignation.
(9) Pregnancy

[Ned]

Pregnancy, Marriage, Joining the Military are all actions in which the cadet is participating in adult behavior - and IMO should not be a cadet.  Unfortunately this doesn't prohibit unmarried cadets with children from being cadets - but I think it should.

So, my thoughts about it are that it has nothing to do with morality but the cadets decision to participate in the adult world - so they should be treated accordingly and removed from cadet status.

Slightly off topic, but . . .

Of course, neither marriage before age 18 or parental status are disqualifying for cadet membership.

Nor should they be.

The whole notion that seniors are "adults" and cadets are "children" is false.  The concepts of "childhood" and "cadethood" are simply unrelated.  Apples and oranges.

I was a married ROTC cadet (I was 27 and in grad school).  We also had our first child before I was commissioned.  Clearly Uncle Sam doesn't care too much if his cadets are married or not; or if they have children as long as they benefit from the instruction and are qualified to serve.

Because cadets are military students, who may or may not be above the age of majority in their particular location.

And there is nothing about marital or parental status that affects a person's ability to learn.

[Ned]

According to CAPR35-3, it is still automatic termination of cadet membership.

See the KB:

Pregnancy is no longer a cause for automatic termination of membership. An early change (Change 2 dated 1 Jul 1985) to CAPR 35-3 Membership Termination added pregnancy as {paragraph 3a(9)} one of the reasons for automatic loss of membership by cadets, but that is no longer the case.

The policy was changed by the National Board in August 2001 when the Board approved a recommendation to remove pregnancy as a cause for automatic termination (see below).

August 2001 National Board Minutes
4. ITEM: Discrimination in Termination of Cadet Membership
COL SCORSINE/WY moved a substitute motion, COL LINKER/ME seconded that the National Board amend CAPR 35-3, paragraph 3, Causes to Terminate Cadet Membership, under (a) Automatic Termination, in two places: First, sub-paragraph (2) Marriage—add the language "after reaching the age of eighteen." Second, sub-paragraph (9) Pregnancy— delete the paragraph.

MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: Notification to CAC and the field, implementation of new procedure, and change to CAPR 35-3.

And yes, it appears that they never got around to posting an ICL or change.

[Rotorhead]

Of course, neither marriage before age 18 or parental status are disqualifying for cadet membership.

So are you saying the reg quoted above is no longer effective? Because if it is, then your statement is wrong.

ETA: Okay, added above. Got it.

[MIKE]

Topics split.

[Eclipse]

If I wanted to, I could go to a strip club. I'm in college now. And, legally, I could get married, or join the military and die for my country. Am I less of an adult because I am a cadet (for the next two months, at least)? I COULD do these things, after all. Am I considered a child because I am choosing not to get married, or join the military?

Yes, while in a CAP uniform.

BTW - Most 20 year old college students believe they are adults, and around 30 realize they weren't.

When do you actually become an "adult"?  Hard to say for sure, but I would posit its sometime after there is anything left you can't do based on age.  I would also put forth that legal "adult" status is different from maturity.

I know plenty of young people who are mature and capable of making good decisions, but that doesn't make them adults, regardless of their ability to vote, enlist, or drink.

And the reality of the situation is that, on the mean, most people into their mid 20's have fewer responsibilities and more life flexibility than the average "adult" by normal standards.  That flexibility allows them the leeway to make poor decisions, or "try out" risky behaviors they would never consider into their 30's.  That, in turn, is why insurance companies, credit agencies, and similar reserve adult status for people 25 or even older in some cases.

[RiverAux]

Gee, its only been 8 years and they haven't managed to write a one-sentence ICL?  Guess they weren't really that serious about it. 

[Ned]

Gee, its only been 8 years and they haven't managed to write a one-sentence ICL?  Guess they weren't really that serious about it. 

Or they weren't very serious about throwing out cadets who became a parent.

Or both.   

It always did seem kind of odd that we would terminate a rape victim because she had the further misfortune to become pregnant.

I'm glad we fixed that.

[Nathan]

If I wanted to, I could go to a strip club. I'm in college now. And, legally, I could get married, or join the military and die for my country. Am I less of an adult because I am a cadet (for the next two months, at least)? I COULD do these things, after all. Am I considered a child because I am choosing not to get married, or join the military?

Yes, while in a CAP uniform.

First, if that were true, then our program would be a complete failure at preparing cadets for adulthood and "the real world."

Second, it was more linked to the pregancy thing being related to adulthood being an invalid argument. The truth is that if a male cadet and a female cadet had sex and it resulted in pregnancy, the male cadet would be free to continue through the cadet program while the female cadet would be forced to leave because of her biological make-up. In fact, the male cadet can freely admit to the entire squadron that he is the father of the child, and he can STILL be a cadet. The mother gets tossed out because, well, it's hard to hide pregnancy. THAT is ridiculous. It seems that the only way around that is for the mother to have an abortion before anyone notices the bun in the oven, and that doesn't really seem like something we should be encouraging, even implicitly.

[RiverAux]

(4) Payment of any kind made by bad check to
National Headquarters if such check is not redeemed within 60
days of proper notification.

Stinks to be a cadet whose parents can't balance a checkbook....

[smj58501]

If I wanted to, I could go to a strip club.

Don't you?

Table dances are a bit much to budget for on the average cadet income.

[Cecil DP]

Bottom Line to me is that pregnancy is a normal and natural body function.

[Eclipse]

Bottom Line to me is that pregnancy is a normal and natural body function.

Not for 15 year olds.

Actually, scratch that.  Obviously if a 15yro gets pregnant, the plumbing is working.  Which is the problem.  The undeniable, fundamental, "right" of a 15 year old to use that plumbing has skewed the way we teach our children about responsibility.

"Its ok, just be 'safe'"

The results of the pregnancy are not a natural part of the life of anyone under 21, and rare is the high school or even college-age person fully capable and ready for the massive weight of responsibility that comes with raising a child