FO discrimination

[DNall]

Since we just can't have threads drifting too much....

1) There is a system of FO grades for members 18-20.

2) Grade in CAP does not currently vest any level of responsibility or authority.

3) So, there is no logical reason to prevent 18-20yo members from holding officer grade (2Lt & above).

4) In my opinion, this situation represents unjustifiable discrimination.

5) If anything, grade in CAP is used as an incentive to recruit &/or retain individuals (ie pilots, lawyers, EMTs, etc). The use of the FO system with regard to cadets coming over to SM or under 21 adults works exactly the opposite in the form of a disincentive. This further skews membership toward older members and to some extent limits the organization's capabilities in physically demanding GSaR.

What this is not a discussion of:

1) Grade insignia

2) Any change to the program which would vest responsibility/authority, therefore creating reasonable justification to limit it over 21 members.

3) The availability of insignia or treatment of FOs by membership.

Discuss...

[dwb]

2) Grade in CAP does not currently vest any level of responsibility or authority.

[...]

2) Any change to the program which would vest responsibility/authority, therefore creating reasonable justification to limit it over 21 members.

There already is one: you have to be an officer to be a commander.  Ergo, members under 21 cannot be commanders.

[RiverAux]

Well, I'm not exactly sure what you do want to discuss.....

One option that has not been mentioned is to make 18-20 year olds senior members without grade.  This wouldn't imply they were "officers".  However, in order to compensate for them not being able to promote as a flight officer, all their time in grade would be applied when they turn 21 so that if they have met all the other requirements for that grade, they could:
1. Promote directly from SMWOG to 2nd Lt if they have been a SMWOG under the age of 21 for at least 6 months.
2.  Promote directly from SMWOG to 1st Lt if they have been a SMWOG under the age of 21 for at least 18 months.  

This would be mostly of benefit to former cadet NCOs who never made cadet officer and for those who join CAP when they are already over 18.  Former cadet officers already have ways to jump grades when they turn 21.  

However, it would stink not to have a real grade for up to 3 years so quite frankly, the current system may be the best out there (if you are one that resists making 18-20 year olds CAP officers.  

[TankerT]

2) Grade in CAP does not currently vest any level of responsibility or authority.

[...]

2) Any change to the program which would vest responsibility/authority, therefore creating reasonable justification to limit it over 21 members.

There already is one: you have to be an officer to be a commander.  Ergo, members under 21 cannot be commanders.

Actually, my wing has had at least one(that I know of) flight officer commander's in the past 10 years. 

[lordmonar]

This is one of the aspects of my "cadets over the age of 18" argument.

In my experince FO's are generally treated like over aged cadets.
Some of our regulations (besides rank) limit the activities of under 21 year olds ) they can't drive CAP vehicles for one.

If you chuck in the CADET aspect of it...it becomes very ambigous.  We make some 20 year old Spaatz Cadet be a lowly SFO for a year or two but we let some 21 year old off the street put on 2d Lt six months after he joins.

I would one of two things.

1) Set a hard and fast date....this is a cadet and this is a Senior Member.  What ever that date is we would just go from there. Completely eliminating the FO ranks.

or

2) We make all are members progress through the FO ranks....maybe merging them into just one FO rank that you hold for 1 year.  Promotion to 2d Lt would be .....1) Complete Level II, 2) 12 Months Time In Grade 3) be 21 years of age.

This is not a perfect fix....but it would then mean that everyone was an FO at one time so it would remove the stigma from it.

[DNall]

This is one of the aspects of my "cadets over the age of 18" argument.

In my experince FO's are generally treated like over aged cadets.
Some of our regulations (besides rank) limit the activities of under 21 year olds ) they can't drive CAP vehicles for one.

If you chuck in the CADET aspect of it...it becomes very ambigous.  We make some 20 year old Spaatz Cadet be a lowly SFO for a year or two but we let some 21 year old off the street put on 2d Lt six months after he joins.

I would one of two things.

1) Set a hard and fast date....this is a cadet and this is a Senior Member.  What ever that date is we would just go from there. Completely eliminating the FO ranks.

or

2) We make all are members progress through the FO ranks....maybe merging them into just one FO rank that you hold for 1 year.  Promotion to 2d Lt would be .....1) Complete Level II, 2) 12 Months Time In Grade 3) be 21 years of age.

This is not a perfect fix....but it would then mean that everyone was an FO at one time so it would remove the stigma from it.

That's a much more reasonable argument.

There should either be no restriction whatever on 18-20yo members - ie they go straight to 2LT after 6mos just like everyone else, or a higher standard should be applied to everyone.

If you want to put everyone in a year long training/probationary "officer candidate" status, then make them 2Lts, that's a lot more reasonable and fair than what we are doing.

In a broader sense, I look at it from a military perspective, where every commissioned officer is in essence some level of a corporate officer, not just the wing commander. Putting officer grade on people that doesn't really mean anything is a waste of time. But, if we're then going to deny that status, it had better be on the basis of a whole lot more than age.

[notaNCO forever]

^^ I completely agree it sounds like the best option.

[Eclipse]

You have to be an officer to be a commander.  Ergo, members under 21 cannot be commanders.

There is no defined minimum age to be a Squadron commander, nor requirement that you be an officer. 

The minimum requirement is that you be a senior member, period. So by default the minimum age to be a Squadron CC is 18.

It is not out of the question for a senior member without grade (SMOWG) or one who has chosen to display his NCO grade from another service in lieu of accepting a CAP Officer appointment to serve as a Squadron CC (or higher).

[hatentx]

Ok to slightly merge two threads for a moment.  I like the idea of every SM moving through the same ranks with no restrictions.  But what if using FO we use NCOs.  This would also keep us from having 1st Lt for life.  If you choose to work in just the SQD level you stay and NCO   and not progrees to the officer.  This would alow them to promote with out doing all the PD that goes along with the officer side. 

[Flying Pig]

^That one has actually been discussed at length.  So here we are again.....Rank in CAP means nothing to anyone outside of CAP.  These arguments are silly.

[lordmonar]

^That one has actually been discussed at length.  So here we are again.....Rank in CAP means nothing to anyone outside of CAP.  These arguments are silly.

Not in this context...because I have seen FO's treated differently.  So maybe rank does not mean anying to anyone outside of CAP we do have an internal problem.  And just saying "get over it" does not really fix the problem.

[notaNCO forever]

 Maybe it's not the FO grades that are bad but peoples opinions of them is what the problem is.

[Stroke]

Maybe it's not the FO grades that are bad but peoples opinions of them is what the problem is.

I believe this is probably the root cause of the problem.  Public opinion can greatly skew reality.  However, in regards to the focus of this post, the success of the FO program as an incentive to join/retain members depends on the squadron.  I was a FO and worked all the way through the program.  I did not let the older members of the squadron treat me any differently than any other senior member.  The program, in my opinion, is a great way for young/transitional members to learn what the Senior program is like and where they fit in to the Squadron.  If a member decides to become a FO, good for them.  It encourages progression and can set a great example for cadets to follow.   

[DNall]

Maybe it's not the FO grades that are bad but peoples opinions of them is what the problem is.

Kind of like racism huh?

Point being, we got a seperate & unequal system without any reasonable justification to have it. Sorry to put it in those kind of terms, but I think the parallel has merit.

[alamrcn]

Here's an issue...

Say a 20-year-old Cadet Officer working toward his/her Spaatz wants to have an 18-year-old boyfriend or girlfriend join CAP as a FO. They would no longer be able to date, or the C/Lt Col would have to transition to Senior Member.

This really doesn't make sense. I wouldn't call it a "perk" of being an 18-20 year-old in the Flight Officer program... but he/she should be allowed to date an Adult Cadet!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

My own "JAFFO" experience...

As a 19-year-old in the Flight Officer program, I was brought up on "charges unbecoming an officer" by MUCH OLDER senior members in my unit. I never actually thought about whether or not I was actually an "officer" in this circumstance until right now - about 15 years later!

The charges were deemed BS by wing and dropped quickly. However, in the process I was incorrectly demoted from TFO to FO by my CC, which later I found out shouldn't have happened... Right after I re-completed all the requirements to be promoted again at another unit!

As a former Cadet Officer and even as C/CC, I was a pretty complacent subordinate. But as a young new Senior Member, my ample supply of motivation and enthusiasm (which they severely lacked) seemed to rock the boat a little too much for comfort.

The animosity against me by the "good ol' boy network" of older officers at that unit was mostly because of my age. Had I been a "real" officer when it happened, would things have gone differently? Well, being in the FO program is one thing that could be keeping a younger adult member down, no mater their abilities as an officer.

An so ends my counseling session.

[Eclipse]

^ Within the program, there is no such thing as an "adult cadet".

[Flying Pig]

Not by name, but there definitely are "adult" cadets.  That in itself can bring problems.  Its like having a 20 year old in a church youth group.  Its OK as long as everyone behaves.

[Eclipse]

Not by name, but there definitely are "adult" cadets.  That in itself can bring problems.  Its like having a 20 year old in a church youth group.  Its OK as long as everyone behaves.

A good example, however as someone who is vehemently against any fraternization within the program, including among adults, I would counter that a cadet who has decided to date within the program is likely going to be an issue in other areas as well, especially if he's forced into a decision on status because of it.

CAP is not a dating service or a social club, and if we pressed that point more, we'd have less issues in general.

And while there are exceptions to everything, few 19-21 years olds are "adult" in terms of their maturity or life experience, their ability to vote, drink, or go to war not withstanding.

[DNall]

^different subject....

As a former Cadet Officer and even as C/CC, I was a pretty complacent subordinate. But as a young new Senior Member, my ample supply of motivation and enthusiasm (which they severely lacked) seemed to rock the boat a little too much for comfort.

The animosity against me by the "good ol' boy network" of older officers at that unit was mostly because of my age. Had I been a "real" officer when it happened, would things have gone differently? Well, being in the FO program is one thing that could be keeping a younger adult member down, no mater their abilities as an officer.

Unfortunately, that does happen a whole lot, not only to 19yo FOs, but to 25yo Capts and 30yo Majs too. It's part of the program, fighting back against it as a younger officer to cause the pgm to be successful in spite of the people listed as in charge of whatever, that's something you can take pride in.

However, that negative aspect of our membership actually crosses from unprofessionalism to actual discrimination when you move to the FO grades.

And while there are exceptions to everything, few 19-21 years olds are "adult" in terms of their maturity or life experience, their ability to vote, drink, or go to war not withstanding.

That's true. Now, I got a near legally retarded 1LT & a whole ton of full on adults in CAP that I wouldn't trust to mow the lawn. On the Army side, I'm used to dealing with freakin immature idiots. That's every private we got, regardless of age. You cross into CAP & those folks who would never make NCO are officers. Okay, I understand rank doesn't mean much. But then you have those dirtbags acting all self important cause they're wearing officer grade & someone younger is not. While I've seen just as many FOs that really had it together.

Personally, I don't think members under 21 should be officers, but that's not based on age alone. I don't think the majority of our adults are at all qualified to be officers either. There should be much higher standards for who is lifted to that. Everyone else should go thru the same enlisted ranks.

[jimmydeanno]

Here's an issue...

Say a 20-year-old Cadet Officer working toward his/her Spaatz wants to have an 18-year-old boyfriend or girlfriend join CAP as a FO. They would no longer be able to date, or the C/Lt Col would have to transition to Senior Member.

This really doesn't make sense. I wouldn't call it a "perk" of being an 18-20 year-old in the Flight Officer program... but he/she should be allowed to date an Adult Cadet!

Life is full of choices.  Sometimes you have to live with the results of those choices.