NCO promotions and appointment for non-prior service members.

[Flying Pig]

As I said before....and I said to the Command Chief way back when.

The first thing that would have to happen is that we would need to MANDATE military training for everyone.

Now I am not advocating that.....just sketching out how an NCO corps could be used in CAP. 

We would have to give them a real job and the provide them with a real specialty track progression program.

As things stand right now....I don't see a real need to mandate military training for everyone.  I also don't really see a need for CAP NCOs and IMHO that option should be removed.

But IF.....IF we wanted to re-blue CAP.....and IF....IF we wanted to give something for NCOs to do, we could merge these two into one system quite easily.

I'm with you here - to make this work, members would be GIVEN assignments, and much like the MC$, you could request anything you want, but at the end of the day, (as my kids say) "you get what you get and don't throw a fit..." .  Everyone has a responsibility, a track to get somewhere they want to be, and no empty shirts.

The attrition rate would be pretty high, but if we could weather the storm the core-group would be lean mean, and on the same page.

However unless we do some charter and organization revisions, I'm not sure where that would put those who are strong, contributing members, but have no interest in the military side of the CAP Multi-verse.

Your right, but we are a volunteer organization that does not have the time for serious attrition and weathering the storm.  And this core group, are they willing to branch out and re locate to areas where they are needed like a true NCO Corps member would be transfered? 
Will a solid CAP CMSgt be willing to relocate to a Sq. in another group to help a unit that cant find one?  Probably not anymore that a Capt would be willing to pass his home unit to drive 3 hours to the next group over to help out.  Oh wait, but they would be NCOs so they would be willing to do that.  I forgot.  Its the patch that makes the difference.   

Still, not that I am the guy to convince, but as a Sq. Commander, nobody has explained what true benefit this would bring to the program other than depleting the pool of members I can use to get the job done and placing limits on the staff positions they can hold.  What would the difference be in the criteria for NCO vs Officer, what would be the promotion Professional Development courses and what would happen when my unit has 10 NCOs and one officer?

Im not buying the stern jawed, leathered skinned vision of the CAP NCO.

[afgeo4]

By the way y'all... I don't know what Prof Dev they're going to come up with for this. I think things like SLS, CLC and maybe distance learning USAF ALS/NCOA (if they'll do that for us, but I doubt it) would be good.

An SNCO academy would be a good thing to be done region/national once every couple of years. Aside from that... I don't think anything else should be different.

Here's my worry...

Say a SSgt (who's a guardsman) gets promoted to TSgt in the Guard... he/she would normally be promoted in CAP too (according to today's regs). If we add requirements to the promotion, does he/she stay a SSgt in CAP until he/she completes the said requirements?

In other words, by creating our own promotion system, do we eliminate the connection between the military promotion and ours?

How does this currently work with officers?

[Eclipse]

In other words, by creating our own promotion system, do we eliminate the connection between the military promotion and ours?

How does this currently work with officers?

CAP Senior members can be promoted in two ways:

Complete the CAP PD and service requirements for the respective grade.

Be approved for special appointment based on a promotion in another qualified service.
If you receive a special appointment to "x" because of the Army, you can still progress to "y" internal to CAP as long as you meet CAP's requirements.

[afgeo4]

In other words, by creating our own promotion system, do we eliminate the connection between the military promotion and ours?

How does this currently work with officers?

CAP Senior members can be promoted in two ways:

Complete the CAP PD and service requirements for the respective grade.

Be approved for special appointment based on a promotion in another qualified service.
If you receive a special appointment to "x" because of the Army, you can still progress to "y" internal to CAP as long as you meet CAP's requirements.

Special appointments work just one time, when you come into CAP, don't they? They aren't special promotions, right?

[lordmonar]

By the way y'all... I don't know what Prof Dev they're going to come up with for this. I think things like SLS, CLC and maybe distance learning USAF ALS/NCOA (if they'll do that for us, but I doubt it) would be good.

An SNCO academy would be a good thing to be done region/national once every couple of years. Aside from that... I don't think anything else should be different.

Here's my worry...

Say a SSgt (who's a guardsman) gets promoted to TSgt in the Guard... he/she would normally be promoted in CAP too (according to today's regs). If we add requirements to the promotion, does he/she stay a SSgt in CAP until he/she completes the said requirements?

In other words, by creating our own promotion system, do we eliminate the connection between the military promotion and ours?

How does this currently work with officers?

With AD officers...as they get promoted we CAN....allowed but not mandatory.....promote them just like initial grade.

The same thing would happen for CAP NCO's who were also real NCO's....up to the MSgt level (just like Lt Col for officers).

Flying Pig....in my vision of this thing....you would only have one or two NCOs per unit (about a ratio of 1:10 NCO:Officers).  So 10 person unit would have at the most 1 NCO and 9 officers.  Because  the NCO has a single job of training the officers....no officers...no job.

As for benefits....as I said before....it could be used to improve CAP's military knowledge.

[Flying Pig]

Since none of this has been thought out beyond what patch everyone wants to wear, and the PD isnt much different, lets make it simple.

If you have a Cadet Programs Specialty Track, you come in as an NCO.  If you are a military NCO, your CAP promotions are based on your PD (( or )) your military promotion which ever comes first regardless of what branch of the military you are in.  It just needs to be understood we teach the AF way.  (Since I am a Marine, it really hurt for me to just write that sentence.)  
If your not a military member, you get to go with the established CAP Professional Development route.  Since military-CAP NCO's are going to be developed to bring their military NCO experience to CAP, which I think is what we are truly harness here, then their military experience should be weighed 100% just as it is with military officers coming into CAP.  I have two retired AF LTC's in my unit who are CAP LTC's.  Both are outstanding.  They are restricted from ever rising to full Col unless they meet the established CAP criteria and hold certain positions.  We can do the same with E-9.  Possibly restrict E-9 for the Wing Cadet Programs Director, etc.  We can find jobs in Cadet Programs to restrict for E-9's.
Keep the PD the same for everyone because CAP is CAP and officers and enlisted all need the same information to keep this program running properly.  We don't have the time, money or manpower to have officer and NCO courses specific to each one.  Sure, if we develop an NCO branch I can see having a few course set aside for those who wish to expand their knowledge of Drill, uniforms, PT, etc.  Perhaps held in conjunction with cadet encampments, BCS's, NCOS etc.  Since, during these courses, you are already going to have the "Cadet Programs" gurus already at the location, already teaching the cadets.  It may mean long nights for the instructors, but hey...they are already there.  Beats having an entirely separate course on different dates.  And in doing so, you may actually get a couple extra bodies to help out while they are attending their "training".  And they would be able to watch and observe the animals in the zoo they are being trained to teach, in their natural environment.

As I think someone stated above, members would come is as an E-4 right? Even if it was E-3 it will still work.

Look at this.
Enlisted    Officer
E-3 =       SMWOG
E-4 =       2nd Lt.
E-5 =       1st Lt.
E-6 =       Capt
E-7 =       Maj
E-8 =       LTC
E-9 =       Col

By keeping the PD the same regardless of enlisted or officer will allow an E-6, in tough times, to transfer himself to the rank of Capt if it becomes necessary for him to hold, for example, a Sq. Commander position if his unit is in a bind and there is nobody else.  When his tenure is done, he effortlessly transfers himself back to E-6 and continues on in the NCO track.  Any PD he does, and promotions he receives will also allow him to promote within the enlisted track as well while he is serving as an officer. Hence...no time or effort lost.  However, since we want subject matter experts in our NCO Corps, attach Cadet Programs Tech, Senior and Master to certain ranks in the progression to ensure we don't end up have an E-8 with a tech rating in CP.  Because in my situation, I am a Cadet Progams Tech, but I am the Sq. Commander and a Prior Service NCO.  When my 10 year old joins in a couple of years, I plan on getting back into CP heavily, so I could transfer back to the enlisted ranks at that point with no loss of time or grade or effort on PD.

Lets face it kids.....we are never going to have a true NCO Corps that many of us military members are familiar with.  So lets accept that.  For those who were never in the military, trust me, its not going to happen.  So, in that case, there is no confusion.  If you see an enlisted member strutting across the grinder, you know he/she is a cadet programs member and has chosen to focus their attention completely on the aspects of cadet programs OR a military member who has chosen to pursue another specialty track while maintaining their military grade.  That, I believe, will most closely develop any type of "NCO Corps" we could hope for in our type of organization.  And, it would also allow the NCO's to address issues with the Seniors.  If the Sq. Commander has decided that his officers need a customs and courtesy class, uniform wear, or anything related to the "military" aspect of CAP, he calls in his NCO, who is recognized as having chosen that area of expertise.

As far as the distinction between who is ultimately in charge.  CAP has already dealt with that.  We command by position, not rank in CAP so nothing will change there.  So we arent going to have an issue of a brand new CAP 2nd Lt coming in and smacking down the Deputy Commander for Cadets who is MSgt's and destroying the program because the MSgt 's position already trumps the rank.

I think this deals with a lot of the "social" issues relating to having both sides.  In reality, they aren't really any different, it just a visual symbol of what you road you have chosen to pursue in your CAP career, however, it will not keep you from pursuing other interests in the program either.  

Im sure there are holes in the plan, but I think it makes more sense than just randomly having an NCO Corps just for the sake of having one. And in the end, I think having NCO's in anything other than cadet programs is pretty much a waste of time.  If you are a military NCO who doesnt want to work with cadets, I think we should just stick with the already established Senior Member NCO program.  But for those who want to promote in the NCO ranks, you need to be involved in Cadet Programs or a currently serving military member who can promote that way.

Wheeeew.

[Eclipse]

In other words, by creating our own promotion system, do we eliminate the connection between the military promotion and ours?

How does this currently work with officers?

CAP Senior members can be promoted in two ways:

Complete the CAP PD and service requirements for the respective grade.

Be approved for special appointment based on a promotion in another qualified service.
If you receive a special appointment to "x" because of the Army, you can still progress to "y" internal to CAP as long as you meet CAP's requirements.

Special appointments work just one time, when you come into CAP, don't they? They aren't special promotions, right?

You can be promoted to any level, anytime, as long as someone with the proper authority approves.

The notion of a 1-time SA promotion, etc., is an urban legend outside of any reg, though many
Wings & Regions use it as an unwritten rule.

[afgeo4]

I think Robert (Flying Pig) has just proposed a great reason for having an enlisted corps and also how to implement it into our current framework.

I would, however, also try to attract more MX NCO's with A&P's to possibly alleviate maintenance costs for our aircraft and I wouldn't restrict NCO's to cadet programs. I think they'd fit in really well into ES as well.

[Hawk200]

I don't understand the viewpoint of allowing prior NCO's up to only MSgt. Why? It's not the same as the colonel grade.

Any E-9 that comes in and wants to keep the rank should get it. We don't have any special positions for it, why restrict it?

[lordmonar]

I don't understand the viewpoint of allowing prior NCO's up to only MSgt. Why? It's not the same as the colonel grade.

Any E-9 that comes in and wants to keep the rank should get it. We don't have any special positions for it, why restrict it?

But we would have special position for it....if my vision of the NCO corps were to be instituted...hence the rank restriction.

[Flying Pig]

Maybe we dont need special assignments for E-9's.  We could have Command Chiefs in the similar way the Army has Command Sgt Maj's. at different levels.

My only thing is, I really dont see enlisted having much use outside of the cadet programs.  There is really no point unless you are a prior service NCO who has decided to keep their rank.  If we are trying to harness the military type image of the NCO, leave the Senior Member NCO's in cadet programs where they can have a direct effect on the cadets.  That will bleed over to the senior officer side as those members filter around.  We really don't need NCOs in other tracks specifically.  Because then we are having just for the sake of having them.  There is nothing an ES NCO or a Comm NCO is going to do that a LTC ES member isn't going to do.  An ES SSgt isnt going to be anymore of a subject matter expert than a Maj.  Our training isnt set up to give one person a different skill set in any one track.  We all have access to the same training. 

We are talking that we want the NCOs to be the subject matter experts.  Alright, then means we should ALL be NCOs right?

If you guys really want NCOs and we end up having them, give them their own "realm". And that realm should be the cadet programs.  Then the NCO Corps will naturally filter into other Specialty Tracks as well, because those people will also be involved in ES, Comm, Admin etc. but their emphasis will always be primarily the "military side" of CAP, which is the cadet program, not the Senior program. Your not going to find Senior Member officers suddenly enthusiastic and learning drill or uniform wear simply because Capt. Jones converted over to the NCO side of the house to work with cadets and showed up at the meeting with his new stripes.
The same people you have in CAP as officers today will be the SAME people who will be the NCO's tomorrow if this idea were to kick in.

Having NCOs as A&P's, why?  I am not seeing how recruiting A&P's and making them NCO's is going to have any affect what so ever on our program, unless we are trying to emulate the military by having officer pilots and enlisted "Crew Chiefs" which I dont think was your idea. Again, with that all we are doing is picking duties and assigning a symbol.  This job gets a bar, that job gets stripes, this gets a bar, that gets stripes.  How are we going to attract A&P's anymore then vs. what we do now.  We already award Capt for A&P's who come in.  They arent going to flock in simply because they can be NCO's.  That provision is already in place if they are a former military NCO.

My point is that the cadet programs is going to be the place where, if any, anyone is going to give a rats pituty about whether you a "Master Sergeant" or not vs. a Maj.  In the Senior program, it will always be....
"Hey Joe, how do you turn this thing on?"...."But Maj. Smith, my title is Master Sergeant."......"OK Joe, get over here and fix this thing.  By the way, we still on for fishing tomorrow morning?"..."Yeah, you bringing the beverages?"

Maybe cadets will identify more with leaders who are NCOs?  I dont know, the program seems to have worked pretty well for the last 20 years I have been involved.

I am personally still having a hard time with the whole NCO Corps to begin with.  I don't feel there is any need for it at all, and I am still of the belief that some of this is being motivated simply by the fact that some people just want to wear stripes vs. bars on their uniform.  Others I think have a valid motivation but I don't think its effect will be what some think it will be.  Maybe in the onset, but as time goes on, I don't think you will see much, if any separation between the two.  I believe it will truly dilute into people choosing what patch you think makes their mess dress look better.  We don't have the capacity in CAP to have completely dedicated and separate Officer and NCO branches.

Im trying to be open minded about this, but I think if we expand the NCOs to anyone who wants to be the "expert go to guy" then lets just abandon the officer ranks all together and lets all start wearing enlisted chevrons, because the definition should include everyone. 

[Hawk200]

I don't think that NCO's should be limited to a simple "Leadership NCO" position. There are plenty of places that their former service would be useful, but limiting based on their stripes is pigeon-holing them. If that's what we would do, there is no point to having our own "home grown" NCO's in the first place.

I don't mind having them around, if the individual desires it. I've know plenty of people that just didn't feel like being an officer. Nothing wrong with it. Let them keep it, it's not hurting anyone, and they earned it the hard way.

[Flying Pig]

I agree.  Which leads us right back to the program we have in place now, which I am completely happy with.

[Hawk200]

I agree.  Which leads us right back to the program we have in place now, which I am completely happy with.

For the most part I am too. I just think that there should be a promotion mechanism for those wanting to hang on to their heritage. It seems screwy that a guy could come in as a Staff Sergeant, and could easily be one in CAP for thirty or forty years.

In a case like that, I would definitely support a cutoff at Master, or Senior Master. There shouldn't be an option to back door into a Cheif rank.

[DNall]

Then there is the question of the 20 year E8 or E9 that comes from something other than the AF with no CAP background, how do you treat them?  Come on in here is your SMSgt or CMSgt now go forth.  I think without some short of "This is the way we do it here" class, we would find ourselfs in the same sorta mess that I been reading about on another thread here about AF Officers coming into CAP.

I respect that position, just as I do with the AF LtCol that comes over here & is told to go forth with grade intact. I do absolutely think military grade should carry over, but I also favor an additional transition course specifically for prior service as a condition of advanced promotion. There's a couple real good managing volunteers courses, including one from FEMA, that I think should be part of that process.

I think his point is that our standards for 2d Lt, compared to the real military are... how gentlhy can I put this....a crock.

Put in that context, his gentle warning about what it would mean to return to CAP NCO ranks is not really out of line.  If you choose to be a NCO, you will be forced to render courtesies to folks who, unlike real military officers, have next to zero training AND a high likelihood of never actually being in charge of another human being.  Ever.

That's also a fair point, which is where I'd think those standards need to be ramped up. I don't want to slip off into one of those other completely theoretical conversations. I'm just saying, if we CAN start people off in an enlisted system, then the jump to officer can be a whole different thing with ramped up standards. I think that's where the program needs to go, but we can walk it there over time, and this enlisted system is a good first step.


I'd also add that this allows us to eliminate the stupid FO system & make them Amn-SrA. NCO for over 21. Officer comes with an additional set of entry qualifications & board in order to do an intensive course more like what ACA does. Yeah that's sounding pretty good - mainly cause it actually makes sense.

[RiverAux]

The only benefit I can think of for having any sort of NCO program is that every once in a while someone outside CAP might see them and it might help dispell some of the "all Colonels" view of us that appears in some quarters.  Of course wtih an average of about 1 NCO per Wing in CAP right now and little real prospect for more in the future, its not going to make any real difference. 

As to the the main topic, serving military NCOs should promote automatically within CAP under the current system whenever they promote in real life.  I see even less need for non-prior service NCOs than there is for current/prior service NCOs.

Absent a large scale restructuring of the entire senior member professional development and rank program (unlikely), the CAP NCO "corps" is ever unlikely to gain any traction.

[DNall]

Why do we need NCOs you ask? Why is everyone an officer is my question? No organization with functional grade uses only officer grade &/or does not use enlisted grade. By all logic, ours is either non-functional or honorary. We need it to actually be functional.

[RiverAux]

CAP basically has the same rank pyramid as every other organization that uses such titles.  We have a fairly wide base of lower ranking officers with a few on top.  Making the pyramid have a wider base by encompassing NCO ranks won't essentially make anything any better, just different. 

[afgeo4]

CAP basically has the same rank pyramid as every other organization that uses such titles.  We have a fairly wide base of lower ranking officers with a few on top.  Making the pyramid have a wider base by encompassing NCO ranks won't essentially make anything any better, just different. 

Based on a recent post (I don't remember by whom) the most populous grade for officers is Capt. There are less 1st Lts and even less 2nd Lts. That's not a pyramid. That's a diamond. The presence of NCO grades could sway many non-promoting officers to go into the NCO corps, creating less stagnation in grades and a stronger backbone, allowing for stronger, better leaders to promote up the officer chain.

Also, officers who demonstrate inability to lead could be demoted to NCO grades.

[RiverAux]

Its not a perfect pyramid, but in my wing it gets pretty close.  However, the reason it isn't a pyramid is all the special appointments that throw everything out of whack.  That lets a certain percentage of people jump over the lower officer ranks.  If we actually used our professional development system for everybody, it would be a perfect pyramid.