from cadet to Senior Officer(member)

[Dutchboy]

What is the process for a cadet to change to senior officer (member). Details please.

[mikeylikey]

Nooooooooooo.......

Seriously I love to see when Cadets stay with CAP and become Officers.  I wish more would! 

Anyway, New Application, I do believe APP FEE is waived if you write Cadet to Senior on top of the application.  Finger Print Card, Dish some $$ to Vanguard, Should have Cadet Protection already in (6 months before turning 18), and drive on.  Very similar to a Brand New Adult joining CAP.  However it gets interesting if the Cadet is turning 21, has some milestone awards, etc.  Each individual is different, all depends on the Cadets age and background.  If turning 21 and has the Mitch Award they get to be a 2nd Lt etc etc. 

[Tim Medeiros]

have them fill out a CAPF 12 and write across the top "CADET TO SENIOR - NO CHARGE" get them to do a finger print card then send that to NHQ/DP.  My stuff took approximately a week to get processed and posted.

[MIKE]

CAPR 39-2 3-7.

[Eclipse]

Should have Cadet Protection already in (6 months before turning 18)

CPPT cannot be completed until >after< your 18th birthday.

3-7. Procedures for Cadets Transferring to Senior Status. After reaching age 18, cadets desiring to transfer to senior member status may do so by simply forwarding a CAPF 12 and a FBI fingerprint card to National Headquarters (a copy of the CAPF 12 should also be forwarded to the wing headquarters). The form will be annotated across the top as follows: "Cadet to Senior - No Charge." When the application is received by National Headquarters, the cadet will be transferred to senior member status for the duration of his or her current membership year, after which time the member will be billed as a senior membership renewal. NOTE 1: If the cadet's membership is due for renewal at approximately the same time the application for senior membership is made (within 2 months), than the applicant should include new senior membership dues with the application to ensure continuous service. (See attachment 1 for actual dues amount required.) In this case, wing dues will be forwarded directly to the wing. NOTE 2: Cadets who have not transferred to senior member status prior to their 21st birthday, will have their cadet membership terminated and receive a notification letter from National Headquarters along with a CAPF 12 and fingerprint card in the event they wish to continue their CAP affiliation as a senior member.

c. All cadets, within 6 months following their eighteenth birthday, must undergo the same Cadet Protection Program Training (CPPT) that senior members must complete. If a cadet promotion is due during that 6-month period, then this CPPT must be completed prior to the promotion.

Partial emphasis mine, the word "following" is actually bolded in the reg.

I can speak from experience that CPPT Form 11's dated before their birthday will be rejected.

[SarDragon]

[Deleted cuz I responded before reading the entire thread.]

[CadetProgramGuy]

Should have Cadet Protection already in (6 months before turning 18)

CPPT cannot be completed until >after< your 18th birthday.

3-7. Procedures for Cadets Transferring to Senior Status. After reaching age 18, cadets desiring to transfer to senior member status may do so by simply forwarding a CAPF 12 and a FBI fingerprint card to National Headquarters (a copy of the CAPF 12 should also be forwarded to the wing headquarters). The form will be annotated across the top as follows: "Cadet to Senior - No Charge." When the application is received by National Headquarters, the cadet will be transferred to senior member status for the duration of his or her current membership year, after which time the member will be billed as a senior membership renewal. NOTE 1: If the cadet's membership is due for renewal at approximately the same time the application for senior membership is made (within 2 months), than the applicant should include new senior membership dues with the application to ensure continuous service. (See attachment 1 for actual dues amount required.) In this case, wing dues will be forwarded directly to the wing. NOTE 2: Cadets who have not transferred to senior member status prior to their 21st birthday, will have their cadet membership terminated and receive a notification letter from National Headquarters along with a CAPF 12 and fingerprint card in the event they wish to continue their CAP affiliation as a senior member.

c. All cadets, within 6 months following their eighteenth birthday, must undergo the same Cadet Protection Program Training (CPPT) that senior members must complete. If a cadet promotion is due during that 6-month period, then this CPPT must be completed prior to the promotion.

Partial emphasis mine, the word "following" is actually bolded in the reg.

I can speak from experience that CPPT Form 11's dated before their birthday will be rejected.

Wow, I thought it was 6 mos prior as well.....Ok  Carry on

[Eclipse]

Like many things CAP, I found out the hard way - we tried to be proactive with a soon-to-be who was going into the service and wanted to be a fully-converted senior so he could participate in an encampment between basic and his first school.

[RogueLeader]

Like many things CAP, I found out the hard way - we tried to be proactive with a soon-to-be who was going into the service and wanted to be a fully-converted senior so he could participate in an encampment between basic and his first school.

Easy, have them do the CPPT slides, and discussion as close as possible to the 18th b-day, and date it on his b-day.  Even if it doesn't post to e-services right away, a copy of the CAPF-11 satisfies the requirement.

[nesagsar]

What if I left CAP in 2005 as a cadet and if I rejoined it would be as a senior?  And let's suppose that the local group commander dosent like me.

[SarDragon]

It doesn't matter. You're beyond two years out, so it's a redo.

[nesagsar]

What about ribbons and badges? A lot of the stuff that I earned wont be held in records. The squadron commander suppressed records keeping and destroyed documents illegaly.

[SarDragon]

Well, some stuff might still be on record at National. They managed to dredge up info on me in 1989 after an absence of several years. Do you have your own copies of any awards, etc?

The redo I was speaking of would be the segments of Level I that you might have already completed or goten credit for (Mitchell and CPPT).

[nesagsar]

I never recieved paperwork on some of my achievments. I think the most documented item I have is my ground team ratings because I got them at NESA. It took a personal call the wing ES officer to get my GES rating forwarded out of the squadron. I know Mitchel cadets from my squadron that never recieved certificates. At one point I was considered by different people to have five different ranks, I had to carry a small store room of insignia in my pockets and have excuses ready for each officer in case they saw me in the "wrong" grade insignia. I cant even be sure that my lifesaving awards went through properly, the commander of cadets said to wear it though so I did.

[Cecil DP]

I never recieved paperwork on some of my achievments. I think the most documented item I have is my ground team ratings because I got them at NESA. It took a personal call the wing ES officer to get my GES rating forwarded out of the squadron. I know Mitchel cadets from my squadron that never recieved certificates. At one point I was considered by different people to have five different ranks, I had to carry a small store room of insignia in my pockets and have excuses ready for each officer in case they saw me in the "wrong" grade insignia. I cant even be sure that my lifesaving awards went through properly, the commander of cadets said to wear it though so I did.

If those cadets didn't receive their Mitchell Certificates, someone didn't forward the 59-1 to National for the award. Unfortuneately CAPM 52-16 says it's the cadets's responsibility to make sure that it is signed and mailed. 

[nesagsar]

The 59-1 went out but the squadron never gave the cadets the certs. They were happy just to get thier pips.

[Flying Pig]

I never recieved paperwork on some of my achievments. I think the most documented item I have is my ground team ratings because I got them at NESA. It took a personal call the wing ES officer to get my GES rating forwarded out of the squadron. I know Mitchel cadets from my squadron that never recieved certificates. At one point I was considered by different people to have five different ranks, I had to carry a small store room of insignia in my pockets and have excuses ready for each officer in case they saw me in the "wrong" grade insignia. I cant even be sure that my lifesaving awards went through properly, the commander of cadets said to wear it though so I did.

You would have received an official "Certificate for Lifesaving" and would have been presented a medal.  Its a big piece of paper with the colorful lifesaving banner across the top.   If someone just told you to wear it, you may have an issue.  

[nesagsar]

Well thats my old squadron. Not perfect by a long shot. These admin problems are part of why I left. I hear the the guy that took over cadet commander from me was demoted three times and somehow managed to get Mitchel anyway.

[Flying Pig]

So a CADET told you that you earned the Lifesaving Medal 4 times?  The way you have it set up on your "Show us your rack" , you did 4 organ or tissue transports.  Otherwise you get the silver star attachment.


g. Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving.
Awarded to members who save a human life, but do not
meet the criteria for the Bronze or Silver Medal of Valor.
Members who are credited with a save as a result of
participation in a blood or organ transport mission will
be awarded the basic ribbon.  A silver star will be
attached to the ribbon in recognition of lifesaving actions
other than blood or organ transport.  In either case, the
ribbon will be awarded only once.  Members who were
previously awarded the ribbon for a save other than blood
or organ transport should attach a silver star to the ribbon
and remove all other devices.  All previous criteria and
wear instructions no longer apply.

[nesagsar]

No, it was the senior member in charge of the cadets who told me that. I added the story about the cadet to emphasize how messed up the squadron still is.

[LtCol Hooligan]

Here is my two cents on the situation.  Rejoin and see what shows up in eServices.  If it isn't there, try your best to get things recreated.  You should be able to write up details on the lifesaving event and your new commander send them up the chain now.  From there, if your Mitchell is missing and your CAPF 52 series form is missing, I hate to say it but you probably cannot get your Mitchell.  The big thing you lose is a ribbon and having to wait 6 months for 2d LT (if you are 21).

I saw you also reference having to join as an officer since you have been out since 2005.  How old are you now?  If you are 18, you may be able to join as a cadet still.  If you are 19-20, sorry charlie- it's the dark side for you.  You may want to be an officer anyway unless you can accept joining as an 18 year old C/B (if the records are truely gone).

Oh last item- in regards to your ES certs, you might have to redo them, but check to see if GES comes back.  If you took it on-line then GES should come back for you.  You will have to start all over with the GTM and other specialties as your expiration time has passed and it would be good practice anyway.

[SJFedor]

What is the process for a cadet to change to senior officer (member). Details please.

Form 12 w/ the fingerprint card, write "CADET TO SENIOR-NO CHARGE" on the top. If the cadet is near renewal, and won't overshoot the 21 y/o boundary, have them wait until they've renewed, so the 1st year costs just a little less. Send to NHQ, along with a Form 11 stating that the member is exempt from Level 1 (if the cadet is Mitchell or higher). Get CPPT and OPSEC done ASAP.

If cadet is up for an advanced promo (FO/TFO/SFO/2d Lt/1st Lt/Capt) do the F2A with supporting documentation and get it rolling. FO/TFO/SFO are approved at the unit level, and are not recorded at NHQ. So, the Unit/CC signing the 2A is promotion authority.

[nesagsar]

I wont have to worry about Mitchell, I only went up to Chief.
I am 20 now, so I guess no more honor guard. 
I took CAPT-116 and CAPT-117 online when I was in.
I got my ground team certs at NESA and have been doing county government SAR since I got out so I dont think it would be too difficult to re-certify.

[LtCol Hooligan]

Well, I would wear my armstrong ribbon since you "earned it".  I highly doubt if anyone will come up to you and say show me your 52 series form or I'll rip it off your chest.  With GES, if it comes back (which it should), do OPSEC and your level 1 stuff and then log into eServices.  Sign up for the GTM3, UDF and other specialties you want to train in so your SQ/CC can approve training.  Then print the SQTRs and find an SET to go through the tasks with you.  Once you demo that you know your stuff, do your missions and you will be GTG.  The big thing is to get through the FAM and prep so you can go on training missions and real missions while you are a trainee and getting your missions in.

Gosh we have a lot of acronyms in this organization!!

[nesagsar]

WWWDWA

[Eagle400]

Well, I would wear my armstrong ribbon since you "earned it".

I have a question, sir.  Where does the highest cadet program ribbon earned go?  I couldn't find it anywhere in CAPM 39-1, Table 5-2.



Is this something in fine print that National forgot to include in the table?

[Tim Medeiros]

number 18 on that table

"Falcon Award (Earned prior to 1 Jul 79) or highest cadet achievement ribbon earned"

[nesagsar]

My dad got the falcon award when he was a cadet. It was stolen though, he recently bought a replacement off ebay.

[Eagle400]

number 18 on that table

"Falcon Award (Earned prior to 1 Jul 79) or highest cadet achievement ribbon earned"

Wow... slipped right past that one.  Thanks, Capt Medeiros.

[Eagle400]

I just noticed something odd.

If you look at CAPM 39-1, table 5-2, box 18, it states that the highest cadet achievement ribbon earned will be worn. 



But if you look at CAPR 39-3, Section A paragraph 3a, it says the following:



My question is, since there is nothing that says cadet award ribbons are authorized for wear by officers, would I have to replace my Earhart Award ribbon with my Goddard Achievement ribbon in order to wear it as an officer?

The 39-1 mentions achievement ribbons, but not award ribbons.  And the 39-3 only mentions "cadet program ribbons."  Interestingly, no other regulation references "cadet program ribbons." 

Additionally, the 39-3 mixes up cadet award ribbons with cadet achievement ribbons by putting them all in the same category (Section C, paragraph 14 items a through k). 



There is a difference between cadet achievements and cadet awards; not all of the ribbons listed above are for cadet awards.  In fact, more than half of them are for cadet achievements.

So I'm thinking they should have labeled the list "Cadet Program Ribbons" or "Cadet Program Achievements and Awards" so as to prevent confusion.

[cnitas]

Is there really confusion here?   

It is pretty straightforward.

[Eagle400]

Is there really confusion here?   

It is pretty straightforward.

Maybe I'm reading too much into the regs, but it seems to me like there isin't enough of a distinction made between the cadet achievements and the cadet awards.  39-3 lumps them into the same category (Cadet Awards) when really they belong in two different categories.

There should be one category for cadet achievements, and another for cadet awards (but both under the main category of cadet program ribbons). 

Also 39-1 says that officers wear the highest cadet achievement ribbon earned, when it really should say the highest cadet achievement or award ribbon earned.   

[SarDragon]

I just noticed something odd.

If you look at CAPM 39-1, table 5-2, box 18, it states that the highest cadet achievement ribbon earned will be worn. 



But if you look at CAPR 39-3, Section A paragraph 3a, it says the following:



My question is, since there is nothing that says cadet award ribbons are authorized for wear by officers, would I have to replace my Earhart Award ribbon with my Goddard Achievement ribbon in order to wear it as an officer?

The 39-1 mentions achievement ribbons, but not award ribbons.  And the 39-3 only mentions "cadet program ribbons."  Interestingly, no other regulation references "cadet program ribbons." 

Additionally, the 39-3 mixes up cadet award ribbons with cadet achievement ribbons by putting them all in the same category (Section C, paragraph 14 items a through k). 



There is a difference between cadet achievements and cadet awards; not all of the ribbons listed above are for cadet awards.  In fact, more than half of them are for cadet achievements.

So I'm thinking they should have labeled the list "Cadet Program Ribbons" or "Cadet Program Achievements and Awards" so as to prevent confusion.

Don't get wrapped around the axle on this. Wear the highest cadet program ribbon you have, and get on with life. Oh, wait, you're not a member, so you can't wear ribbons, anyway.

[Eagle400]

Don't get wrapped around the axle on this. Wear the highest cadet program ribbon you have, and get on with life. Oh, wait, you're not a member, so you can't wear ribbons, anyway.

Not my only focus, sir.  And certainly not a big deal.  Not trying to start an argument or debate.

I will wear my Earhart Award Ribbon (and all the others that will carry over) come 2009, when I get back in. 

But it would be nice for the regs to be more clearly defined.   

[Tim Medeiros]

number 18 on that table

"Falcon Award (Earned prior to 1 Jul 79) or highest cadet achievement ribbon earned"

Wow... slipped right past that one.  Thanks, Capt Medeiros.

Your welcome glad I could help, interesting point about the phrasing by the way.  Maybe this should be added to the errors/ambiguities/etc thread in the uniform forum

edit: messed up quoting

[nesagsar]

I am just going to stop talking about my ribbons and badges since  the resulting conversation almost destroyed the "show us your rack" thread.

[MIKE]

Almost?

[mikeylikey]

^ Almost?

Beat me too it Mike   

Note:.....I was going to just delete this post (Nuke it), but read your Don't nuke your posts post, so I crossed it out.  Thats Ok right?

[SJFedor]

Don't get wrapped around the axle on this. Wear the highest cadet program ribbon you have, and get on with life. Oh, wait, you're not a member, so you can't wear ribbons, anyway.

Not my only focus, sir.  And certainly not a big deal.  Not trying to start an argument or debate.

I will wear my Earhart Award Ribbon (and all the others that will carry over) come 2009, when I get back in. 

But it would be nice for the regs to be more clearly defined.   

There's a lot of regs that require more focus more rapidly then the specific wording of that particular table/paragraph. But, if you feel you need to follow the extreme letter of the regulation, go ahead and slap on your goddard ribbon. But the wording is most certainly not the intent.

[Hawk200]

But the wording is most certainly not the intent.

I honestly see your point here, and I completely agree with it. However, there are people that get hung up on the letter of the reg, rather than the spirit. Which is why the reg needs to be clarified. If only to avoid issues with reg nazis.

[arajca]

The easiest way to avoid confusion as to whether or not to wear an award is: Do you have documentation to justify it?

As a former cadet, I wear the Earhart, since I have a copy of the CAPNews listing from National. I do not wear three clasps on my encampment ribbon, DR w/o V, or CAC, since I cannot document them.

[jpnelson82]

I joined CAP as a cadet in 1995 and earned an Earhart and voluntarily left in 2001. My Earhart is on the record books with national. I rejoined in March of this year, after the post office lost the CAPF-12 several times. Am I eligible for advanced initial grade to 1Lt.? I think so, but...... what are your opinions?

[ßτε]

I joined CAP as a cadet in 1995 and earned an Earhart and voluntarily left in 2001. My Earhart is on the record books with national. I rejoined in March of this year, after the post office lost the CAPF-12 several times. Am I eligible for advanced initial grade to 1Lt.? I think so, but...... what are your opinions?

Yes, after you complete all aspects of Level I, you would be eligible for advanced promotion to 1st Lt. It is not automatic and you unit commander must approve.

[mile_high1218]

I think it's absolutely bogus for former cadets who come back into the program to have to go all the way through Level I training.  It's an absolute waste of time.  Level I is for those senior members who have no familiarity with the program at all.  I was highly agitated with the fact that I had to go through L-1 when I spent four years working towards my Mitchell in high school. 
The rule needs to be simply this:

If you have the documentation to prove that you received your Mitchell Award, or higher, then you as a senior member, with the permission of the Unit Commander and completion of CPPT, are automatically promoted to whichever rank is appropriate to meet the cadet equivalent.

The two year window rule needs to scrapped.  The basic framework that they drill in your head while your a cadet never leaves you.  It becomes a part of you.  You can put all the fancy bells and whistles on it that you want, the fundamentals are still the same.  Why put a bunch of red tape around it and discourage former cadets, specifically cadet officers, from rejoining when you force them, after they've missed the window due to circumstances beyond their control, to go though a program meant for individuals foreign to the concept and sub-culture that is CAP?

[mile_high1218]

Oh, and I may not be a 2nd Lt. according to Nationals but I earned my Mitchell; therefore, I'm going to wear the rank I worked very hard to earn according to the advanced promotion guidelines.  Screw the red tape.

[MIKE]

Nice example to set there SM Minton.

[Short Field]

So you don't intend to do Level I?   

[SarDragon]

OK, let's go over it once more - Level I = three things:

1. Orientation/Foundations

2. CPPT

3. OPSEC

The Mitchell only relieves you from item 1. Former cadets are still required to do #2 and #3. Number 2 should have already been done if over 18 when leaving the cadet program.

By wearing rank w/o accompanying documentation, you are violating the integrity you signed on for on your CAPF 12.

I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of Civil Air Patrol and agree to be guided by the CAP constitution and Bylaws and comply with CAP rules and regulations as from time to time may be amended or promulgated.

I agree to abide by the decisions of those in authority of Civil Air Patrol.

Better take another look at the core values, don'tcha think?

[mile_high1218]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I've done the Level I training.  I never said I wasn't going to go through with it.  If it's what is required of me then I'll satisfy the necessary requirements.  For all intents and purposes I've fulfilled the requirements set out by the guidelines.  I was just venting my frustrations. 

Apparently I offended somebody because they had to emphasize that I'm 'SM' Bryant Minton.  Sorry but my feelings haven't changed. 

BTW, don't talk to me about setting the example.  I've been through enough the past couple of years, and succeeded in keeping my family together, that you saying that won't phase me.

[Eagle400]

Oh, and I may not be a 2nd Lt. according to Nationals but I earned my Mitchell; therefore, I'm going to wear the rank I worked very hard to earn according to the advanced promotion guidelines.  Screw the red tape.

Is there a record at National of your Mitchell Award?  Have you been out of CAP for more than 2 years?  If the answer to both is "yes", you may wear your butter bars after you complete Level I and your E-Services profile indicates that you have completed Level I. 

Do I agree with this policy?  No.  But I am of the opinion that Level I is a joke anyway, since all the exams are open book and the classes are more like story telling sessions than actual academic classes.  So why not take Level I?   

I have been out of CAP for more than 2 years, so I will also have to take Level I before I can wear my 1st Lt bars.  No big deal, I am very confident I would ace the thing without even studying (except maybe for the "Corporation" BS, as though I care about that anyway ).  In any event, I would pass Level I if I were to take it as soon as one minute from now. 

And what is this red tape you speak of?  You pass the Level I courses and exams, the instructor sends them to National, National inputs the date you completed Level I in your E-Services profile, your commander verifies you have completed Level I, and you get promoted.

Doesn't sound like red tape to me.   

[mikeylikey]

From my sources, the Level 1 will be dramatically different before the end of 2009.  It will incorporate the new OBC that NHQ hopes to release before the end of this year.  

PLUS, level one is not all that time consuming and is a no brainer.  Cadets coming over to the Officer side need to be instructed in Senior Member specifics that they may not have picked up as a Cadet.

Anyway.....georgia_maverick.....4 years to get your Mitchell.  Perhaps you do need level one more than you think.  I do agree with you though, the two year time limit should be done away with.  

[mile_high1218]

The red tape I speak of is Level I itself.  I love the fact that they added CPPT as it addresses a very important issue that is essential in the supervision of young adults.  It's my opinion that former Mitchell cadets should be exempt from Level I if they have the paperwork to prove they have it.  Yes, as a matter of fact Nationals does have my Mitchell on file it's 46457 CO-159, as well as the three encampments I attended while as a cadet from 1998-2000.

[mile_high1218]

Dude it took me four years to get my Mitchell because I worked full-time in high school at the commissary on base after school to make my car payments and save money for college.  If you're implying that my intelligence is limited you need to back yourself up. 

[mile_high1218]

OK, let's go over it once more - Level I = three things:

1. Orientation/Foundations

2. CPPT

3. OPSEC

The Mitchell only relieves you from item 1. Former cadets are still required to do #2 and #3. Number 2 should have already been done if over 18 when leaving the cadet program.

By wearing rank w/o accompanying documentation, you are violating the integrity you signed on for on your CAPF 12.

I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of Civil Air Patrol and agree to be guided by the CAP constitution and Bylaws and comply with CAP rules and regulations as from time to time may be amended or promulgated.

I agree to abide by the decisions of those in authority of Civil Air Patrol.

Better take another look at the core values, don'tcha think?

I grew up on the Academy most of my life, so don't tell me about taking another look at our 'core values'.  I've met the requirements and my unit has signed off and sent the paper work to Montgomery.  I never said I wouldn't play by the rules.  I only meant to voice an opinion about an issue.  I didn't think it would cause people to pull out the regulations and start quoting them at me. 

That's the issue with message boards like this everyone has to one up the last guy.  It's a Pandora's box.

[mikeylikey]

   WELCOME to CAPTALK. 

[mile_high1218]

This is too much.  All I did was state an opinion.  I did what I was supposed to and that's all that matters.

[Eagle400]

From my sources, the Level 1 will be dramatically different before the end of 2009.  It will incorporate the new OBC that NHQ hopes to release before the end of this year.

That is great to hear, since I plan on returning to CAP in mid-to-late 2009.  It's about [DARN] time!

OBC stands for Officer Basic Course, right?  Will it be anything like the Army National Guard 15 week OCS program?  Also, do you know when NHQ will be releasing the OBC course curriculum?        

PLUS, level one is not all that time consuming and is a no brainer.  Cadets coming over to the Officer side need to be instructed in Senior Member specifics that they may not have picked up as a Cadet.

And what makes you think they're going to remember those specifics after completing Level I?  Also, what are these specifics you speak of?  The BS about the corporation?  How to wear the CAP corporate distinctive uniforms?

Anyway.....georgia_maverick.....4 years to get your Mitchell.  Perhaps you do need level one more than you think.  I do agree with you though, the two year time limit should be done away with.

Listen, it took me only 2 years to get the Mitchell, but once I got it, I took my sweet time.  I spent one year as a C/2d Lt, another year as a C/1st Lt, and spent the remaining 4 years as a C/Capt.  2 years to make Mitchell, 2 years to make Earhart.  That means I went from being part of 99.9% of all CAP cadets nationwide to the top 5% in only 4 years.  Do you think I need Level I as well?   

[mikeylikey]

OBC stands for Officer Basic Course, right?  Will it be anything like the Army National Guard 15 week OCS program?  Also, do you know when NHQ will be releasing the OBC course curriculum?

Yup, Officer Basic Course.  And no, it won't be like OCS.  It will be more in line with an ROTC program, think Cadet Leadership Program but for Senior Members. 

Listen, it took me only 2 years to get the Mitchell, but once I got it, I took my sweet time.  I spent one year as a C/2d Lt, another year as a C/1st Lt, and spent the remaining 4 years as a C/Capt.  2 years to make Mitchell, 2 years to make Earhart.  That means I went from being part of 99.9% of all CAP cadets nationwide to the top 5% in only 4 years.  Do you think I need Level I as well?   

You did not progress rapidly as stated in the cadet program guidelines.  I can't stand Cadets that get their Mitchell and then just halt to a slow grind.  It is a waste of your time and mine. 

And yes, you will need level one as well.  Because of the break in service. 

Whats stopping you from joining now anyway?? 

[Eagle400]

I grew up on the Academy most of my life, so don't tell me about taking another look at our 'core values'.

I staffed two encampments at the USAF Academy.  Am I honorable because of that?  No.

I am honorable because I made a decision to live up to the core values, and continue to follow through with that decision. 

When I signed my CAPF 12, I entered into an agreement with CAP that I would follow the core values.  When NHQ received the Form 12, they agreed to allow me the opportunity to continue my cadet service so long as I follow the CAP core values (and yes, that does include paying dues).       

Listen,  

I've met the requirements and my unit has signed off and sent the paper work to Montgomery.  I never said I wouldn't play by the rules.  I only meant to voice an opinion about an issue.  I didn't think it would cause people to pull out the regulations and start quoting them at me.

You're right: you never said you wouldn't play by the rules.  However, admitting that you are going to do something that breaks the rules is the same as saying you will not play by the rules.  In other words, it has the same effect.  Do you follow?

Those who are quoting regs are doing so justifiably because you have admitted that you intend to break one of CAP's core values.  This violates CAPF 12, which isin't an actual reg but carries all the authority of one.  I recommend you heed the warning that is being presented to you.  If you aren't sure what that warning is, please PM me so I can kindly explain it to you. 

That's the issue with message boards like this everyone has to one up the last guy.

Believe me, CAPTalk is nowhere near the worst.  If you go on the Military.com forum for CAP and post the same things there that you have in this CAPTalk thread, then GeneSchubeck, LRSDRanger, and all the other self-absorbed members of that forum will eat you alive.

However, I highly recommend you don't become active on the Military.com forum for CAP.  If you do, it will rot your brain and kill your soul.  

It's a Pandora's box.

No. 

However, if the moderators were SarDragon, PHall, shorning, Lordmonar, Nick Critelli, and Chief Chiafos, then yes, it would definitely be pandora's box.     

[Camas]

Nice example to set there SM Minton.

Something very wrong with a member calling himself a 2d Lt when, in fact, he's listed as a senior member without grade. His commander and the GAWG wing commander, hopefully, are aware of this blatant abuse of the privilege of wearing officer insignia and passing himself off as an officer. Try that in the real military and see what happens. It's not a joke! If it's not posted in e-services, the promotion isn't valid.  Based on your postings you need much more than Level I; you need to grow up.

[jb512]

Holy crap.

I too was a Mitchell cadet when I rejoined and I waited until my paperwork cleared before I put on my gold bars...

I know that you worked for what you got when you were a cadet, but to lead as an officer you know you should follow regs and wear the appropriate grade.  I was a SMWOG for two months before mine cleared and I wore the cutouts on the blues and BDUs till then...

Suck it up.

[Short Field]

Oh, and I may not be a 2nd Lt. according to Nationals but I earned my Mitchell; therefore, I'm going to wear the rank I worked very hard to earn according to the advanced promotion guidelines.  Screw the red tape.

Leaders lead by example.  According to National you may not be a 2nd Lt but you are going to wear the rank anyway. 

Guess I missed where you were going to follow the rules and regulations and was doing the right things.

[SarDragon]

OK, let's go over it once more - Level I = three things:

1. Orientation/Foundations

2. CPPT

3. OPSEC

The Mitchell only relieves you from item 1. Former cadets are still required to do #2 and #3. Number 2 should have already been done if over 18 when leaving the cadet program.

By wearing rank w/o accompanying documentation, you are violating the integrity you signed on for on your CAPF 12.

I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of Civil Air Patrol and agree to be guided by the CAP constitution and Bylaws and comply with CAP rules and regulations as from time to time may be amended or promulgated.

I agree to abide by the decisions of those in authority of Civil Air Patrol.

Better take another look at the core values, don'tcha think?

I grew up on the Academy most of my life, so don't tell me about taking another look at our 'core values'.  I've met the requirements and my unit has signed off and sent the paper work to Montgomery.  I never said I wouldn't play by the rules. I only meant to voice an opinion about an issue.  I didn't think it would cause people to pull out the regulations and start quoting them at me. 

That's the issue with message boards like this everyone has to one up the last guy.  It's a Pandora's box.

This isn't a oneupmanship contest.

Oh, and I may not be a 2nd Lt. according to Nationals but I earned my Mitchell; therefore, I'm going to wear the rank I worked very hard to earn according to the advanced promotion guidelines.  Screw the red tape.

Compare the red highlighted text with the above quote. Tell me (and the rest of our readers) that the quote doesn't contradict the red text. Also, reread my info on the composition of Level I. You don't need to redo all of it.

Now, had you not gotten all huffy and up in our faces about this, you might have gotten a little information that would help solve your problem. If you think my information might be worth  a little humble pie, PM me, and we'll talk.

As for the integrity issue, we have rules because we need rules. Are all of our popular? No. Are they all well written? No. Do some of them need big fixes? Yes.But, in spite of all that, I still follow them, because they are the rules. I don't circumvent them, or find ways around them. I try to work within the system to get them changed.

Remember - Integrity is doing the right thing, even when nobody's looking.

[Cecil DP]

When I was a Wing DP, and all SM promotions went through Wing, we had a similar situation. The Commander and I were at a Squadron function and met the members and presented some awards. We met a 2Lt. A week later his CAPF2 came to Wing. It was promptly returned to the Squadron Commander on the grounds that there must be some mistake as we had not only seen the member wearing the grade insignia, we had some PA's going back several months identifying him as such. The Squadron Commander got a personal message from the Wing/CC and the SM waited until the next Commander's call (2 months) before the promotion would be processed.

[AlphaSigOU]

I think it's absolutely bogus for former cadets who come back into the program to have to go all the way through Level I training.  It's an absolute waste of time...

Sorry, L-T, but the regs are the regs. I was a former cadink and senior member that took a 17-year break from CAP. While waiting for my 1st Lt grade to be reinstated (took about 3-1/2 months) I put up with being a slick-shouldered SMWOG, and took Level I/CPPT (OPSEC wasn't a requirement back then) without a complaint.  I can understand taking the Orientation Course (now the Foundations Course) waiver if it's been less than two years break between cadink and dark side minion. But there are no waivers granted for CPPT or OPSEC. You don't take 'em, you don't play.

P.S. You one of the PDK Mintons? I was one of Ron Bradford's cadets many moons ago when I first joined CAP over 30 years ago. Still have my DEKALB patch.

[MIKE]

Believe me, CAPTalk is nowhere near the worst.  If you go on the Military.com forum for CAP and post the same things there that you have in this CAPTalk thread, then GeneSchubeck, LRSDRanger, and all the other self-absorbed members of that forum will eat you alive.

However, if the moderators were SarDragon, PHall, shorning, Lordmonar, Nick Critelli, and Chief Chiafos, then yes, it would definitely be pandora's box. 

This some kind of personal attack?

However, I highly recommend you don't become active on the Military.com forum for CAP.  If you do, it will rot your brain and kill your soul.

ROTFLMAO. 

Sorry, L-T, but the regs are the regs.

I think you mean S-M. 

[Eagle400]

You did not progress rapidly as stated in the cadet program guidelines.  I can't stand Cadets that get their Mitchell and then just halt to a slow grind.  It is a waste of your time and mine.

I know of a former CAP cadet who was in for 5 years and made it only to C/TSgt, but went on to graduate from West Point and earn the Silver Star in combat.  Do you think he was a waste of time, too?  Had he been 2b'd for failure to progress, he may have lost the will to pursue a commission through West Point and may never have even joined the military.    

I also know what CAPR 52-16, paragraph 2-3, item c says, and in my opinion it is a total crock.  I mean, if someone speeds through phases I and II, and then parks themselves at the Earhart Award, they have still made it to the top 5% of all CAP cadets and have therefore established themselves as a valuable asset.  For example, would a group commander be willing to 2b the C/Capt who was voted in as group CAC rep to wing, just because he failed to progress satisfactorily according to CAPR 52-16?  Or how about a squadron commander whose squadron has a cadet who is unable to progress satisfactorily in CAP due to school, sports and work commitments because he wants to maintain a 4.0 GPA with the hope of gaining admission to a service academy? 

It is pointless and wrong to require unpaid volunteers to "move up or move out", especially when they are the ones who are paying out of their own pockets to be able to serve in CAP.  It is also wrong that cadets are required to "move up or move out", but a CAP officer can never promote and spend the rest of their life in CAP without the fear of being 2b'd.  Talk about a double standard!

If CAP must keep the satisfactory progression rule, then there should be waivers for those cadets who are unable to progress at the rate of 2 achievements per year because of more important commitments such as school and work.  There needs to be a differentiation made (in CAPR 52-16) between those cadets who don't progress satisfactorily due to more important commitments, and those who don't progress satisfactorily because they are lazy.  There is a huge difference between the two, so it is not right to lump them into the same category.    

Whats stopping you from joining now anyway??

College.  I'm a full-time student, but will have my degree in 2009.  CAPTalk is how I stay up to date on things so that I am not totally clueless about what has changed since I left in 2006.   

[mikeylikey]

I know of a former CAP cadet who was in for 5 years and made it only to C/TSgt, but went on to graduate from West Point and earn the Silver Star in combat.  Do you think he was a waste of time, too?  Had he been 2b'd for failure to progress, he may have lost the will to pursue a commission through West Point and may never have even joined the military.    

In CAP.....yes a waste of time, his later achievements maybe not.  I bet he used his CAP time as a way into West Point.  I propose that Academies only look at a prospective Cadets CAP experiences if they received the Mitchell.  I see too many Cadet Airman and Cadet Sergent's getting appointments to academies.  I think they only join CAP and sit around so they can say "Ya CAP was my extracurricular activity". 

I am on the local Academy entrance board, and have convinced the other members to exclude anyones curricular or extracurricular activities if they are less than 2 years and if they show no advancement in whatever program they were in, be it Boy Scouts or CAP.  Is that right.....I think it is and the Congressman agrees.   

[Short Field]

Gee you are cold!  What are those poor resume inflaters going to do now?   

[mikeylikey]

Gee you are cold!  What are those poor resume inflaters going to do now?   

Get them $1.50 extra at BK or McDonalds

[Eagle400]

Believe me, CAPTalk is nowhere near the worst.  If you go on the Military.com forum for CAP and post the same things there that you have in this CAPTalk thread, then GeneSchubeck, LRSDRanger, and all the other self-absorbed members of that forum will eat you alive.

However, if the moderators were SarDragon, PHall, shorning, Lordmonar, Nick Critelli, and Chief Chiafos, then yes, it would definitely be pandora's box. 

This some kind of personal attack?

No it is not, sir.  Every one of the individuals I listed above posted personal attacks directed at me on this public forum, when they could have easily sent me a PM (which would have been more appropriate).  However, it is important to realize that I am not the only one who has been on the receiving end of such attacks.  I said what I said based on my own experiences with these individuals on this forum/

Also, please note that I only referred to them by their usernames, not their actual names.  However, those members whose usernames are their actual names and those who include their actual names in their signature lines have the right to do so.  If someone wants to keep their actual name off the internet (or a particular site), that is their right as well.  I respect that both rights. 

A person's name is their property unless they make it public, such as having their username be their actual name or including their actual name in their signature line.  When someone posts a person's actual name on a public forum, knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt that the person wants to keep their actual name private, they are using their property without their consent (which is especially inappropriate when the person's name is being used in an effort to smear their character).

The Constitution makes it clear that free speech is not protected when someone makes false accusations.  Free speech also does not prevent people from voicing their own opinions in response to outrageous statements and unpopular opinions.  However, the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution clearly states the following:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Anyone on a site such as a public internet forum, which allows for the use of usernames in place of actual names, has the right to not have their actual name used in public correspondence (posts) without their approval.  For example, if someone wants to address me by my actual name, then they may do so in a PM, but not in a post.  It's that simple.

There are some internet forums that actually warn their members to either keep their actual names private, or make those names public at their own risk.  Why?  Because there are people out there who actually want to use someone else's name to either commit a crime, or present to the public a fraudulent representation of someone's character.  I have avoided those dangers by not displaying my actual name on any forum I am a member of, though some people want to make it public without my approval.

About the personal attacks directed at me, I do not wish to dig up dirt on people and present said dirt in public, but if you want specific examples, please PM me and I will provide them to you via PM as appropriate.

However, I highly recommend you don't become active on the Military.com forum for CAP.  If you do, it will rot your brain and kill your soul.

ROTFLMAO. 

I'm glad you enjoyed that, sir.  I wish I was the one who originally said it, but the credit goes to a member of the Military.com forums.

Now, back to the thread.

[DeputyDog]

College.  I'm a full-time student...  

So am I. It is possible to do both. Three of the five senior members that are under 30 in my squadron are full time college students. Why is that stopping you?

[RiverAux]

This is too much.  All I did was state an opinion.  I did what I was supposed to and that's all that matters.

This board is all about stating your opinions -- just expect that others will challenge them.

[JayT]

This reminds me of that scene from The Big Lebowski where Walter argues with the waitress about his first amendment rights in a diner.

[MIKE]

Topic.

[SAR-EMT1]

This thread is eating me alive. If I continue reading, it shall rise up to rot my brain and consume my soul.

[BlackKnight]

^ 

Let me weigh in here and set the record straight.  I wish I'd seen this thread sooner but it's been a busy week...  My apologies.

SM Minton is in my squadron.  We welcome his experience, dedication, and enthusiasm, and we look forward to great things from him. He has much to offer. He has been informed of the procedures and requirements to earn the right to call himself a CAP 2nd Lt and wear the accompanying grade insignia. He understands that in addition to completing Level 1 and OPSEC, the waiver of 6-months time-in-grade for Mitchell Award recipients constitutes a "special promotion".  It must first be approved by the unit commander, and all echelons all the way up to CAP NHQ.  It's by no means automatic. This is not a process we are unfamiliar with. We have had several Mitchell and Earhart cadets transition to senior membership and receive advanced grade.

Bottom line. There will be no wearing of gold butterbars or any other advanced grade until NHQ confirms his promotion.   And that's the end of that.   

[ßτε]

First and Second Lieutenant. The squadron commander is the promoting authority for all members assigned to his/her unit for all promotions except professional appointment promotions.

Promotion to 2d Lt for former Mitchell cadets are approved by the Squadron CC. If Level I, CPPT,  OPSEC, and Mitchell show on eServices, the approved CAPF2 should be sent directly to NHQ. If the Mitchell doesn't show, attach proof of Mitchell Award. It is not a waiver of TIG. TIG applies only to duty performance promotions and professional promotions after initial appointment.

[mile_high1218]

  I apologize for using a poor sense of judgment in my original post.  It was not my intention to cause controversy.  I was only attempting to blow some steam and in the process I stuck my foot in my mouth.  As I have stated before I will respect the rules and regulations set out by CAP.  I recognize that I cannot, nor will I ever, put a rank on that I have not rightfully earned.  I have waited eight years to rejoin the program and I can wait a little longer to reach this achievement.  I apologize to anyone that I may have offended.   

[SAR-EMT1]

^ Danke

[AlphaSigOU]

I apologize for using a poor sense of judgment in my original post.  It was not my intention to cause controversy.  I was only attempting to blow some steam and in the process I stuck my foot in my mouth.  As I have stated before I will respect the rules and regulations set out by CAP.  I recognize that I cannot, nor will I ever, put a rank on that I have not rightfully earned.  I have waited eight years to rejoin the program and I can wait a little longer to reach this achievement.  I apologize to anyone that I may have offended. 

No offense taken... now go and sin no more! 

[Eagle400]

So am I. It is possible to do both. Three of the five senior members that are under 30 in my squadron are full time college students. Why is that stopping you?

[Sigh]

I am very tired of hearing this [farg]ing argument.  Allow me to end it for you: 

I am not you, and you are not me.

End of discussion.

[Eagle400]

This reminds me of that scene from The Big Lebowski where Walter argues with the waitress about his first amendment rights in a diner.

Uhh... apples and oranges.

CAP is not a diner.  That's all the info you need.

[JayT]

This reminds me of that scene from The Big Lebowski where Walter argues with the waitress about his first amendment rights in a diner.

Uhh... apples and oranges.

CAP is not a diner.  That's all the info you need.

Was that an attempt at wit?

[Eagle400]

Was that an attempt at wit?

I'll let you figure that one out, too.

[Jimbo]

The easiest way to avoid confusion as to whether or not to wear an award is: Do you have documentation to justify it?

As a former cadet, I wear the Earhart, since I have a copy of the CAPNews listing from National. I do not wear three clasps on my encampment ribbon, DR w/o V, or CAC, since I cannot document them.

All encampments are posted to eServices... you can't document all of your encampment attendances via eServices?  All of my six are posted there, both as a Cadet and as a Senior...

[mikeylikey]

^ Mine were never posted on Services.  Good thing I kept a "me book".  I have faxed sooooo many forms, and certificates to NHQ to update my records it is ridiculous!  Mostly PAWG Admin Officers fault.  (the woman is 90, has been doing the job for 50 years, is not computer savy, and keeps all wing files in her basement, even though PAWG has a decent Wing HQ). 

[SarDragon]

The easiest way to avoid confusion as to whether or not to wear an award is: Do you have documentation to justify it?

As a former cadet, I wear the Earhart, since I have a copy of the CAPNews listing from National. I do not wear three clasps on my encampment ribbon, DR w/o V, or CAC, since I cannot document them.

All encampments are posted to eServices... you can't document all of your encampment attendances via eServices?  All of my six are posted there, both as a Cadet and as a Senior...

It also depends on how long ago you attended encampment. They managed to have my Mitchell left over from some olde records after my broken service, but neither one of my encampments. It emailed scans of my certificates, and they now show up.

[arajca]

The easiest way to avoid confusion as to whether or not to wear an award is: Do you have documentation to justify it?

As a former cadet, I wear the Earhart, since I have a copy of the CAPNews listing from National. I do not wear three clasps on my encampment ribbon, DR w/o V, or CAC, since I cannot document them.

All encampments are posted to eServices... you can't document all of your encampment attendances via eServices?  All of my six are posted there, both as a Cadet and as a Senior...

All of mine predate Eservices. I had a 13 year break in service and my records got lost along the way...

[Cecil DP]

^ Mine were never posted on Services.  Good thing I kept a "me book".  I have faxed sooooo many forms, and certificates to NHQ to update my records it is ridiculous!  Mostly PAWG Admin Officers fault.  (the woman is 90, has been doing the job for 50 years, is not computer savy, and keeps all wing files in her basement, even though PAWG has a decent Wing HQ). 

The Liason Officer( or his current incarnation) is responsible for certifying and sending the encampment forms to National.

[Cecil DP]

^ Mine were never posted on Services.  Good thing I kept a "me book".  I have faxed sooooo many forms, and certificates to NHQ to update my records it is ridiculous!  Mostly PAWG Admin Officers fault.  (the woman is 90, has been doing the job for 50 years, is not computer savy, and keeps all wing files in her basement, even though PAWG has a decent Wing HQ). 

The State Director Formerly the AF Liason Officer should have been the one to send it in.

[RiverAux]

Why would this be a SD responsibility?  Seems like it is a purely internal CAP matter. 

[mikeylikey]

^ It is.  All we need is his Signature on the form certifying our training goals as perscribed by CAP Regulation were met.  I know NJWG-PAWG SD, usually shows up the last day of Enc, signs the form which is waiting for him, then its up to the Enc Commander or Admin types to forward to NHQ. 

[RiverAux]

Weird.  They don't have to sign of on other stuff like that, at least that I'm aware of. 

[mikeylikey]

Weird.  They don't have to sign of on other stuff like that, at least that I'm aware of. 

CAP Form 20  http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503130820.pdf

I thought I read you have been working Encampment for years?  Maybe I am mistaken, sorry.

[Eclipse]

Why would this be a SD responsibility?  Seems like it is a purely internal CAP matter. 

Mikey's right - the SD is charged with approving the curriculum and completion of the activity.

Seems like it is a purely internal CAP matter. 

An encampment is one of the few truly objective parts of becoming a cadet officer, which in turn makes one eligible for advance military grade, thus direct approval authority of CAP-USAF.

[RiverAux]

Wasn't doubting the info, just think it is a little bit odd. 

FYI, I went to encampment as a cadet about 23 years ago, but haven't been to one since.  I've got the work schedule flexibility so that I could actually go as staff and might do that at some point in the future.

[lordmonar]

[Sigh]

I am very tired of hearing this [farg]ing argument.  Allow me to end it for you: 

I am not you, and you are not me.

End of discussion.

It's amazing how many times and different forums this comes up.

You spend a lot of time grousing about how bad CAP is and making all sorts of suggestions....but  you do nothing to actually try to fix any of them.

If you don't like it...and don't do the simple act of joining CAP and trying to fix it....just go away!